Author Topic: Popes of Alexandria Meet  (Read 22958 times)

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Offline Regnare

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2014, 10:12:41 PM »
Quite frankly, I'm not much less confused about Coptic vesture despite these wonderful photographs. In some of them the bishop doesn't appear to be wearing an omophorion, just a large hood (is the omophorion under the stole and cincture?) or Byzantine-style mitre. Also, the link minasoliman posted has a picture of Pope Kyrillos VI in what looks like a "winged" vestment that Ethiopian deacons/priests wear: http://st-takla.org/Gallery/var/resizes/Clergy/Coptic-Popes/116-H-H-Pope-Cyril-VI-Baba-Kerolos/13-His-Holines-Pope-Kyrillos-the-Sixth-Face/Pope-Cyril-Standing/www-St-Takla-org--Pope-Kyrillos-VI--El-Baba-Cyril--Face-162.jpg?m=1299816090
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2014, 10:18:28 PM »
If Coptic bishops don't wear an omophorion, doesn't that mean Copts aren't under the omophorion of any bishop?

No wonder some Protestant-leaning layman and priests are starting to see the bishops as nothing but a matter of church administration, rather than an actual hierarchy in the true sense on the term ("holy firstness").

Bring back the omophorion now!

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2014, 10:26:28 PM »
If Coptic bishops don't wear an omophorion, doesn't that mean Copts aren't under the omophorion of any bishop?

No wonder some Protestant-leaning layman and priests are starting to see the bishops as nothing but a matter of church administration, rather than an actual hierarchy in the true sense on the term ("holy firstness").

Bring back the omophorion now!

Amen!  And let's get every single priest in North America under the omophorion of a diocesan bishop quick-fast-in-a-hurry, so they can all realize that they serve as the surrogates of the bishop - who himself serves εις τόπον και τύπον Χριστού - in his diocese - that all of their authority derives from the bishop - and they are not free to implement random-acts-of-Evangelicalism unilaterally.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 10:33:33 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Jonathan

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2014, 07:46:54 AM »
How do you resize images again?

Quite frankly, I'm not much less confused about Coptic vesture despite these wonderful photographs. In some of them the bishop doesn't appear to be wearing an omophorion, just a large hood (is the omophorion under the stole and cincture?) or Byzantine-style mitre. Also, the link minasoliman posted has a picture of Pope Kyrillos VI in what looks like a "winged" vestment that Ethiopian deacons/priests wear: http://st-takla.org/Gallery/var/resizes/Clergy/Coptic-Popes/116-H-H-Pope-Cyril-VI-Baba-Kerolos/13-His-Holines-Pope-Kyrillos-the-Sixth-Face/Pope-Cyril-Standing/www-St-Takla-org--Pope-Kyrillos-VI--El-Baba-Cyril--Face-162.jpg?m=1299816090

I think it's a bad idea to take Popes as examples, since they can do whatever they want :)

Random images from google images:

Typically vested Coptic priest:


Coptic priest who's probably been made fun of by EO priest buddies until he started wearing a stole again:


Coptic priest vested for a feast:


Coptic bishop (or monk) typically vested:


Coptic bishop vested formally (bothering with a stole):


Coptic bishop vested for feast (with random EO hat):
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 07:50:06 AM by Jonathan »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2014, 11:24:19 AM »
You know what I'd love to see?  If the bishops revive this liturgical dress:

That's somewhat similar to EO schemamonks.



Typically vested Coptic priest:


Coptic vestments typically include RC paintings and/or Our Lady of Victory?

« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 11:28:19 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2014, 11:36:39 AM »
Agreed on both counts!  The Syrians still wear something similar to this, and it is beautiful!




Offline Jonathan

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2014, 11:43:19 AM »


Coptic vestments typically include RC paintings and/or Our Lady of Victory?



Whatever saint the person feels like. Many have spoken out say no more saint pictures on tonias, but it doesn't seem to be dying down. Of course, they would refer to it as Our Lady of Zeitoun.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2014, 12:37:40 PM »
Whatever saint the person feels like. Many have spoken out say no more saint pictures on tonias, but it doesn't seem to be dying down. Of course, they would refer to it as Our Lady of Zeitoun.

I haven't seen an official proclamation, but all of the Abounas and "deacons" here on the East Coast are saying that H.G. Anba David gave us one year to get rid of the tonias with saints on them.  Crosses only from now on.  This started recently (in 2013).
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Jonathan

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2014, 12:47:09 PM »
Whatever saint the person feels like. Many have spoken out say no more saint pictures on tonias, but it doesn't seem to be dying down. Of course, they would refer to it as Our Lady of Zeitoun.

I haven't seen an official proclamation, but all of the Abounas and "deacons" here on the East Coast are saying that H.G. Anba David gave us one year to get rid of the tonias with saints on them.  Crosses only from now on.  This started recently (in 2013).

Maybe one day we'll have a synod of bishops in North America to make these changes together :)

A monk in Egypt recently yelled at a priest "Do you put on Christ, or a saint?" There is hope. But still a lot of bishops and clergy who consider such things silly to worry about, fanatical, it looks nice, etc.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2014, 01:08:37 PM »
fanatical

fa·nat·i·cal
/fəˈnatikəl/

adjective to be applied freely to:

1. Anyone who suggests that there is a proper way to do things in the Church.

2. Anyone who questions heterodox-inspired innovations in the Church.

"Those guys who think we should sing Psalm 150 instead of Shine, Jesus, Shine during Holy Communion sure are fanatical."
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 01:13:58 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Jonathan

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2014, 01:25:54 PM »
fanatical

fa·nat·i·cal
/fəˈnatikəl/

adjective to be applied freely to:

1. Anyone who suggests that there is a proper way to do things in the Church.

2. Anyone who questions heterodox-inspired innovations in the Church.

"Those guys who think we should sing Psalm 150 instead of Shine, Jesus, Shine during Holy Communion sure are fanatical."

I think that there's truth to what you say, but also two sides.

Yes, some people, when being told the truth, just write it off as fanatical, because it's not what they want to do, and they don't feel anyone should be able to tell them what to do. I get that. I experience that.

But at the same time, there are people who want to use Orthodoxy as a big stick for beating anyone who disagrees with them. Correction should be done from a heart overflowing with love and compassion in peace. If internal peace is lost, we are probably doing more harm than good in trying to correct, which will just confirm their opinion that we are fanatics. But we've had this discussion before, so I won't trouble you further with my opinions on it :)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 01:26:21 PM by Jonathan »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2014, 03:36:34 PM »
fanatical

fa·nat·i·cal
/fəˈnatikəl/

adjective to be applied freely to:

1. Anyone who suggests that there is a proper way to do things in the Church.

2. Anyone who questions heterodox-inspired innovations in the Church.

"Those guys who think we should sing Psalm 150 instead of Shine, Jesus, Shine during Holy Communion sure are fanatical."

I think that there's truth to what you say, but also two sides.

Yes, some people, when being told the truth, just write it off as fanatical, because it's not what they want to do, and they don't feel anyone should be able to tell them what to do. I get that. I experience that.

But at the same time, there are people who want to use Orthodoxy as a big stick for beating anyone who disagrees with them. Correction should be done from a heart overflowing with love and compassion in peace. If internal peace is lost, we are probably doing more harm than good in trying to correct, which will just confirm their opinion that we are fanatics. But we've had this discussion before, so I won't trouble you further with my opinions on it :)

And I say now as I said then that I agree with everything you've written here.  Correction must indeed come from a heart overflowing with love, and those who use Orthodoxy as a cudgel with which to assail those with whom they disagree on a variety of subjects which have nothing to do with the Faith or orthopraxis work to the detriment of those actually concerned with future of the Church.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Pharaoh714

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2014, 11:39:58 PM »
Why have the E.O in Egypt abandoned the Coptic Rite?

Even the Roman Catholics have re-adopted it.  I posted this thread before on Tashebha you can take a look at it.


http://tasbeha.org/community/index.php?p=/discussion/12937/coptic-catholics



Pretty much the Coptic Catholic went from this  http://vimeo.com/8967791

To this:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-y5PRyFygk
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX4joEysUcg#t=91



How come the E.O in Egypt do not adopt to the Alexandrian/Coptic Rite?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 11:40:31 PM by Pharaoh714 »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2014, 01:33:17 AM »
Even the Roman Catholics have re-adopted it.  I posted this thread before on Tashebha you can take a look at it.

They haven't readopted, Coptic Catholics have alwas used it.  They had latinized to a degree and are now shedding the Latinizations.  In Egypt there are Coptic, Melkite, Maronite, Syriac, Chaldean, Armenian, and Latin Catholic Churches each using their own liturgical rite.
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Offline Pharaoh714

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2014, 02:59:38 AM »
Even the Roman Catholics have re-adopted it.  I posted this thread before on Tashebha you can take a look at it.

They haven't readopted, Coptic Catholics have alwas used it.  They had latinized to a degree and are now shedding the Latinizations.  In Egypt there are Coptic, Melkite, Maronite, Syriac, Chaldean, Armenian, and Latin Catholic Churches each using their own liturgical rite.

If that is true why are they using the Symbols in the Latin rite? [in my first video] They are also using unleavened bread or the wafers used by Latins, yet in the later videos they use the leavened like Copts.
"If I say, "My foot slips," Your mercy, O LORD, will hold me up. In the multitude of my anxieties within me, Your comforts delight my soul." Psalm 94:18-19

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2014, 10:08:20 AM »
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2014, 02:23:27 PM »
Even the Roman Catholics have re-adopted it.  I posted this thread before on Tashebha you can take a look at it.

They haven't readopted, Coptic Catholics have alwas used it.  They had latinized to a degree and are now shedding the Latinizations.  In Egypt there are Coptic, Melkite, Maronite, Syriac, Chaldean, Armenian, and Latin Catholic Churches each using their own liturgical rite.

If that is true why are they using the Symbols in the Latin rite? [in my first video] They are also using unleavened bread or the wafers used by Latins, yet in the later videos they use the leavened like Copts.

The EO and OO Alexandrines have been separate since ~451. At that time every local church had its own rite. Later, a synthesis of rites (mostly the rite of the great church in Constantinople, synthesized with Jerusalem and Antioch, simplified outside the cathedral setting) became unified across the empire. This did not affect the local OO churches, which carried on as they had before. So at some point after the split, the EO Alexandria got harmonized along with the rest of the empire to a unified rite, and the OO of Alexandria continued developed their own tradition as ever.

In the mid 1700's or 1800's (I don't remember off hand), a muslim ruler sought to force the Copts to be under Rome for various political reasons (this was the OO Alexandria, the EO Alexandria was too small to be worth worrying about). A compromise was reached, one prominent Copt in gov't persuaded the Caliph to allow the Church to remain Orthodox if his family converted, and the Eastern Catholic Church of Alexandria was born. In keeping with the Catholics political doctrine of the time, the Eastern Churches were allowed to maintain their rite, in hopes of luring the EO into Communion with Rome while feeling they're still Orthodox. So of course the Coptic Catholics kept the same Liturgy books they'd already used, just crossing out the Orthodox Pope's name and inserting the Pope of Rome.

Like all EC's, they can have biritual priests, and concelebrations. If they are concelebrating with Latins, they will likely use the Latin rite with some Coptic elements (as the one video you posted). But normally, the Coptic Catholic Liturgy looks exactly like the Coptic Orthodox Liturgy. Your thesis that they started off as Latin rite and later adopted the OO rite based on two video clips out of context simply doesn't match history.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Popes of Alexandria Meet
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2014, 10:44:44 PM »
A polemical tangent regarding Catholicism was moved to the private forum, where polemical discussions belong.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,56057.msg1050120/boardseen.html#new

If someone wants to join the private forum, they need to pm Fr. George and ask for admission.


For the record:

Roman Catholics, EO's and others are fully free to post in the OO Section.  They can also disagree with us here.  They can likewise express their opinion that their Church is the true Church and ours is not, as long as they are polite, and not being confrontational.  We OO's are not so insecure in our faith that we have to demand that everyone who converses with us agree with us and tell us we are The True Church.

However, polemics are not allowed.  This tangent was too polemical in tone, so it has been moved to the Orthodox/Other Christian private forum.


I am also locking the thread since it has developed way too many tangents.  If someone wants to further discuss the subject matter of one of the tangents, he may do so by starting another thread.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 02:25:45 AM by Salpy »