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Author Topic: Popes of Alexandria Meet  (Read 2296 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 08, 2014, 11:03:58 PM »

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His Beatitude Theodoros II, Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa was in Cairo for the holy days of Christmas, to conduct the festal spiritual and Liturgical events as is Patriarchal custom.

...

Following the end of the Eucharistic gathering His Beatitude received the festive greetings of the Coptic Patriarch Theodoros II. Welcoming the Coptic Primate, His Beatitude expressed genuine feelings of joy for the visit, emphasizing their common interest in the progress of all citizens of Egypt, regardless of religious faith. On his behalf, the Coptic Patriarch also expressed his satisfaction on the mutual understanding which governs the relationship between the two churches and prayed that love will prevail in the hearts of all mankind. Commemorative gifts were then exchanged.

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2014/01/popes-of-alexandria-meet/

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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2014, 11:11:28 PM »

Aren't Alexandrian Greeks on the New Calendar?
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2014, 11:12:53 PM »

Were different vestments standard practice in the Church prior to the Schism or did they change?
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2014, 11:17:34 PM »

Quote
His Beatitude Theodoros II, Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa was in Cairo for the holy days of Christmas, to conduct the festal spiritual and Liturgical events as is Patriarchal custom.

...

Following the end of the Eucharistic gathering His Beatitude received the festive greetings of the Coptic Patriarch Theodoros II. Welcoming the Coptic Primate, His Beatitude expressed genuine feelings of joy for the visit, emphasizing their common interest in the progress of all citizens of Egypt, regardless of religious faith. On his behalf, the Coptic Patriarch also expressed his satisfaction on the mutual understanding which governs the relationship between the two churches and prayed that love will prevail in the hearts of all mankind. Commemorative gifts were then exchanged.

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2014/01/popes-of-alexandria-meet/


Is this from yesterday or two weeks ago?  Ruumi Alexandria is on the New Calendar (after all, EP Meletius ended his days as our Pope).
In any case, good to see.  Many years to both!
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2014, 11:18:47 PM »

Were different vestments standard practice in the Church prior to the Schism or did they change?
They were the same, but their development has gone on separately.  The Coptic has gone towards the Imperial Melkite as of late.
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2014, 11:35:13 PM »

Is this from yesterday or two weeks ago?  Ruumi Alexandria is on the New Calendar (after all, EP Meletius ended his days as our Pope).
In any case, good to see.  Many years to both!

This is what the article gave as its source:

http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=news&action=details&id=977

It seems to be from December.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 11:35:29 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2014, 12:22:55 AM »

AΞIOI, (Pope Theodore II)^2
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2014, 12:41:35 AM »

AΞIOI, (Pope Theodore II)^2

So is this just a coincidence that they are both Pope Theodore II?

The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox are, in essence, quite naturally alike.

Godwilling we will have one Church, despite having two Churches.
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 10:01:49 AM »

Were different vestments standard practice in the Church prior to the Schism or did they change?
They were the same, but their development has gone on separately.  The Coptic has gone towards the Imperial Melkite as of late.

Do you have any more information about recent development/changes in vestments?
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 10:03:24 AM »

Well, for one thing EO pope is wearing liturgical dress, and the Coptic - choral one. Apples to oranges.
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 11:16:27 AM »

The Coptic has gone towards the Imperial Melkite as of late.

What's that?
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 12:23:50 PM »

The Coptic has gone towards the Imperial Melkite as of late.

What's that?

Meaning we finally have some money to buy nicer things now. Let's hope they don't bring back the jizya.


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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2014, 12:35:26 PM »



Maybe they are having a staring contest? Or comparing their beards? The winner gets to decide the number of natures of Christ.
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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2014, 01:04:30 PM »



Maybe they are having a staring contest? Or comparing their beards? The winner gets to decide the number of natures of Christ.
lol!
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2014, 01:08:21 PM »

Well, for one thing EO pope is wearing liturgical dress, and the Coptic - choral one. Apples to oranges.

Oh, I know. It's still a bit different though.


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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2014, 01:15:47 PM »

^Coptic beards seem to be bushier. Doesn't seem right. One would assume that two natures led to more roaring beards whereas one meant neatly trimmed goatee.
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2014, 01:17:14 PM »



What a lovely photo. If only they hit his eyes a little more.
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« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2014, 01:32:03 PM »

Differences:

Sticharion / tonia / tunic / alb:
Among the Copts it is always white, never coloured like the EO sometimes use (as it is the Baptismal gown, I believe this is the more ancient practice). However, the Coptic ones have a lot of embroidery on them, sometimes even images, which I believe is a recent development. The plainer Syriac ones seem more ancient.

Epitrachelion:
-The Coptic orarion has become fused. It is not two ends clasped or sewed together, but one big cloth (a giant bib, as my child observed). I believe the EO practise of leaving it recognizable as a stole is clearly more ancient/correct. Does anyone know when the Coptic stole became fused? Coptic priests commonly celebrate without one, with only the alb and mitre, since the time of Pope Shenouda III (the past 40 years), something EO would never do and Copts would never have done previously.

Orarion:
-Many 6 yr old Coptic chanters wears an orarion, often equivalent to the EO Archdeacon's. I know this is not authentic since this style originated among the Greeks in the 1700's. The more ancient way for a deacon to wear an orarion is over the left shoulder, not wrapped around the waist at all. The EO have maintained this, but it is forgotten among the Copts. Chanters and readers should not wear them at all, but pick whatever style they think is prettier.

Omophorion:
-The Copts don't wear an omophorion. They did up until Pope Kyrollos VI, but it was different, wrapping around the head as well. Instead bishops are now differentiated from priests among the Copts by shoulder pads on the phelonion.

Phelonion:
-about the same except the episcopal shoulder pads, as above, and that the Copts have largely dispensed with them in the past 40 years.

Mitre:
-The Byzantine mitre was adopted from byzantine civil authorities. The mitre of Coptic priests was copied from RC missionaries in the 1700's or 1800's. Prior to that their heads were uncovered like EO priests (unless they wore a monastic head covering of course). Coptic bishops have begun adopting EO mitres in the past 50 years or so. The omophorion over the head on top of the turban came before that.

Zone (belt), Cuffs: the same, but Copts have largely dispensed with them after Pope Kyrollos VI (in the past 40 years or so).

The Russian awards like the sward (square cloth at the hip) have never existed among the Copts.

The Mantiya: I'm not aware of it among the Copts, except perhaps what the Pope has worn when not vested since perhaps the time of Pope Shenouda III

Colours:
-EO rubrics only differentiate between light and dark colours. The current usages developped later and are not set in stone. The Copts seem to have adopted a simplified version of the Greek style quite recently. Previously, generally only gold or white over a white sticharion was used. Though this change is older than most here, having occurred before H.H. Pope Shenouda III and fluctuated since then.

Monastic head covering:
-The Copts adopted the Syriac one (split down the middle with crosses on either side) in the time of Pope Shenouda III, who argued that it was the original form used by the Copts, though there is no scholarly evidence of this.
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« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2014, 01:35:29 PM »

^Coptic beards seem to be bushier. Doesn't seem right. One would assume that two natures led to more roaring beards whereas one meant neatly trimmed goatee.

It is quite rare for any Coptic monk, including bishops, to have permission to trim their beards.
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2014, 01:36:33 PM »

The Coptic has gone towards the Imperial Melkite as of late.

What's that?

Meaning we finally have some money to buy nicer things now. Let's hope they don't bring back the jizya.




Actually it's quite the opposite. The vestments of today's priests and bishops are vastly simplified from 50 years ago to (and some would argue past) the bare minimum.
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2014, 03:16:21 PM »

Differences:

Sticharion / tonia / tunic / alb:
Among the Copts it is always white, never coloured like the EO sometimes use (as it is the Baptismal gown, I believe this is the more ancient practice). However, the Coptic ones have a lot of embroidery on them, sometimes even images, which I believe is a recent development. The plainer Syriac ones seem more ancient.

Epitrachelion:
-The Coptic orarion has become fused. It is not two ends clasped or sewed together, but one big cloth (a giant bib, as my child observed). I believe the EO practise of leaving it recognizable as a stole is clearly more ancient/correct. Does anyone know when the Coptic stole became fused? Coptic priests commonly celebrate without one, with only the alb and mitre, since the time of Pope Shenouda III (the past 40 years), something EO would never do and Copts would never have done previously.

Orarion:
-Many 6 yr old Coptic chanters wears an orarion, often equivalent to the EO Archdeacon's. I know this is not authentic since this style originated among the Greeks in the 1700's. The more ancient way for a deacon to wear an orarion is over the left shoulder, not wrapped around the waist at all. The EO have maintained this, but it is forgotten among the Copts. Chanters and readers should not wear them at all, but pick whatever style they think is prettier.

Omophorion:
-The Copts don't wear an omophorion. They did up until Pope Kyrollos VI, but it was different, wrapping around the head as well. Instead bishops are now differentiated from priests among the Copts by shoulder pads on the phelonion.

Phelonion:
-about the same except the episcopal shoulder pads, as above, and that the Copts have largely dispensed with them in the past 40 years.

Mitre:
-The Byzantine mitre was adopted from byzantine civil authorities. The mitre of Coptic priests was copied from RC missionaries in the 1700's or 1800's. Prior to that their heads were uncovered like EO priests (unless they wore a monastic head covering of course). Coptic bishops have begun adopting EO mitres in the past 50 years or so. The omophorion over the head on top of the turban came before that.

Zone (belt), Cuffs: the same, but Copts have largely dispensed with them after Pope Kyrollos VI (in the past 40 years or so).

The Russian awards like the sward (square cloth at the hip) have never existed among the Copts.

The Mantiya: I'm not aware of it among the Copts, except perhaps what the Pope has worn when not vested since perhaps the time of Pope Shenouda III

Colours:
-EO rubrics only differentiate between light and dark colours. The current usages developped later and are not set in stone. The Copts seem to have adopted a simplified version of the Greek style quite recently. Previously, generally only gold or white over a white sticharion was used. Though this change is older than most here, having occurred before H.H. Pope Shenouda III and fluctuated since then.

Monastic head covering:
-The Copts adopted the Syriac one (split down the middle with crosses on either side) in the time of Pope Shenouda III, who argued that it was the original form used by the Copts, though there is no scholarly evidence of this.

Why have things changed so much in our Church in recent years, in terms of vestments, as you've described above, anaphorae and the prayers for the dead being dispensed with, full deacons losing the right to cense, et cetera?
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« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2014, 03:32:32 PM »

Why have things changed so much in our Church in recent years, in terms of vestments, as you've described above, anaphorae and the prayers for the dead being dispensed with, full deacons losing the right to cense, et cetera?

I was just hoping to solicit information from the more knowledgable here about how the vestments have changed and what the more traditional way is because I'm curious... I didn't mean to derail Smiley

Full deacons no longer cense because they had gone extinct, so the real question is how come we're so confused about what a deacon is (and isn't) Smiley

How has the prayer for dead been dispensed with? We still say the prayer for the departed every Saturday and every evening. What are you referring to? (I'm sure it's something I should know, but I don't remember).

As for dispensing with anaphorae... I think that's a positive development for the most part. Things build up over the centuries, and things that maybe were good for a specific time and place, or maybe never were better than the more ancient practice can be safely discarded in order to maintain an authentic expression of Apostolic worship rather than one that grows into something unrecognizable... If the Liturgy was good enough for St. Cyril, it's good enough for me Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2014, 05:01:18 PM »

I was just hoping to solicit information from the more knowledgable here about how the vestments have changed and what the more traditional way is because I'm curious... I didn't mean to derail Smiley

I'm curious too.  I hope someone can step up and provide an answer as to why our vestments have become so simplified in many respects.  I've often heard it has to do with the persecution, but something tells me this can't be the whole story.  Plenty of persecuted churches in the Middle East haven't simplified their vestments.

Full deacons no longer cense because they had gone extinct, so the real question is how come we're so confused about what a deacon is (and isn't) Smiley

I understand what you mean regarding readers and chanters acting as deacons.  I agree we shouldn't be able to cense, even when filling in for real deacons.  I was referring to this exchange between you and Salpy:

I don't know why the Coptic Church restricts censing to the priest only.  I think all the other traditions, both Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian, allow deacons to cense.  Please someone correct me if I am wrong.  I've always assumed that the practice of allowing deacons to cense is older, only because it is more widespread, but I could be wrong.  In the back of my mind I seem to think there was an Old Testament passage that restricted censing to priests, but I am not sure.  Perhaps that is why the Copts restrict censing to priests only?

The Coptic tradition allowed Deacons to cense until Pope Shenouda III fought against it. I believe the reason it was rejected is because what a Deacon is had been forgotten (hint: it isn't every 6 year old boy).

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests, but the Christian practice has always assigned the usage of incense to the priests and levites (deacons), though not interchangeably, they both have their prescribed times and ways of censing.

So, are you saying then that full deacons, people with the actual rank of διάκονος, can still cense, and that the application of Numbers 6 is to readers and chanters acting as deacons only?  I've only ever served in one Coptic Liturgy which included full deacons, and my view of the altar was obstructed by the heads and shoulders of my fellow readers and chanters, so I didn't see if the full deacons got to cense or not.

St. Stephen is depicted on Coptic icons as censing, so I'm guessing the restriction is limited to readers and chanters acting as deacons?  



How has the prayer for dead been dispensed with? We still say the prayer for the departed every Saturday and every evening. What are you referring to? (I'm sure it's something I should know, but I don't remember).

 Angry  Urgh!  Sorry, man!  That's what I get for typing super-fast trying to get something down on the screen before I had to yield the computer to someone else!

Yes, you're quite correct.  I was referring not to general prayers for the dead, but to the prayers for those in Hades from the Vespers on the Sunday of Pentecost.

Quote
Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell. I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx

Although, to my mind, removing the prayers for those we assume to be in Hades but keeping the general prayers for the departed (whose fate we can't presume to know) for the reasons described above seems to be a bit contradictory.

As for dispensing with anaphorae... I think that's a positive development for the most part. Things build up over the centuries, and things that maybe were good for a specific time and place, or maybe never were better than the more ancient practice can be safely discarded in order to maintain an authentic expression of Apostolic worship rather than one that grows into something unrecognizable... If the Liturgy was good enough for St. Cyril, it's good enough for me Smiley

Oh, I don't know.  I kind of like the model exemplified in the Ethiopian Church.  I think that if prayed in their proper places and times and there only, and not patch-worked in where they don't belong, the anaphorae can be exceedingly beautiful and edifying for the soul.
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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2014, 05:11:17 PM »

No, you're right, actual deacons are no longer allowed to cense. I just mean that the reason is that we no longer know what a deacon is, and actually think that a 6 yr old boy is in fact a deacon (albeit a low ranking one), and so of course it makes sense to restrict deacons from censing. Or praying the litanies, or even having the deacon's responses restricted to them and not the 6 year olds when they are there...

You're right, I never noticed how funny it is that we still make modern icons (and have ancient ones) with deacons censing while teaching that the ground should open up and swallow them for doing so.

I don't think the answer can be persecution when the changes have been so recent.

Ah, right, I'd forgotten about that, removing prayers for those in Hades. Things like that and changing the the doxologies to meet Anba Bishoy's understanding of the Assumption scare me.
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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2014, 05:21:03 PM »

The Coptic tradition allowed Deacons to cense until Pope Shenouda III fought against it. I believe the reason it was rejected is because what a Deacon is had been forgotten (hint: it isn't every 6 year old boy).

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests, but the Christian practice has always assigned the usage of incense to the priests and levites (deacons), though not interchangeably, they both have their prescribed times and ways of censing.

So, are you saying then that full deacons, people with the actual rank of διάκονος, can still cense, and that the application of Numbers 6 is to readers and chanters acting as deacons only?  I've only ever served in one Coptic Liturgy which included full deacons, and my view of the altar was obstructed by the heads and shoulders of my fellow readers and chanters, so I didn't see if the full deacons got to cense or not.

Is there no distinction in Coptic tradition between the act of putting the incense in the censer and the act of censing?  In the Syriac and Armenian traditions, deacons and even minor clerics can cense, but only a priest or a bishop can put the incense in the censer.  And that's with an exegesis of Numbers 6 included in the rite of priestly ordination.  Wink

Quote
As for dispensing with anaphorae... I think that's a positive development for the most part. Things build up over the centuries, and things that maybe were good for a specific time and place, or maybe never were better than the more ancient practice can be safely discarded in order to maintain an authentic expression of Apostolic worship rather than one that grows into something unrecognizable... If the Liturgy was good enough for St. Cyril, it's good enough for me Smiley

Oh, I don't know.  I kind of like the model exemplified in the Ethiopian Church.  I think that if prayed in their proper places and times and there only, and not patch-worked in where they don't belong, the anaphorae can be exceedingly beautiful and edifying for the soul.

What was the objection to multiple anaphorae? 
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« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2014, 05:21:39 PM »

Quote
His Beatitude Theodoros II, Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa was in Cairo for the holy days of Christmas, to conduct the festal spiritual and Liturgical events as is Patriarchal custom.

...

Following the end of the Eucharistic gathering His Beatitude received the festive greetings of the Coptic Patriarch Theodoros II. Welcoming the Coptic Primate, His Beatitude expressed genuine feelings of joy for the visit, emphasizing their common interest in the progress of all citizens of Egypt, regardless of religious faith. On his behalf, the Coptic Patriarch also expressed his satisfaction on the mutual understanding which governs the relationship between the two churches and prayed that love will prevail in the hearts of all mankind. Commemorative gifts were then exchanged.

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2014/01/popes-of-alexandria-meet/



I really get a kick out of the fact that His Holiness' sakkos has palm trees on it.   Shocked
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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2014, 06:10:59 PM »

No, you're right, actual deacons are no longer allowed to cense. I just mean that the reason is that we no longer know what a deacon is, and actually think that a 6 yr old boy is in fact a deacon (albeit a low ranking one), and so of course it makes sense to restrict deacons from censing. Or praying the litanies, or even having the deacon's responses restricted to them and not the 6 year olds when they are there...

You're right, I never noticed how funny it is that we still make modern icons (and have ancient ones) with deacons censing while teaching that the ground should open up and swallow them for doing so.

Okay, so shouldn't we educate the people as to the difference between a real deacon and their six-year-old altar server son (who shouldn't be wearing a mini-badrashil anyway) instead of stripping the actual deacons of the rights accorded to clerics of their rank?  Every other Apostolic Church's deacons can cense but ours because someone can't reign their kids in?  Even the British Orthodox Church, which is technically a part of our patriarchate, allows its deacons to cense, but a man of St. Habib Guirguis's rank can't cense in a Coptic Church because no one wants to explain to Uncle Whoever that his son is not a deacon?  It seems like an easy fix.

God willing, this will be rectified in the future.

I don't think the answer can be persecution when the changes have been so recent.

Any theories as to what it could be then?

Ah, right, I'd forgotten about that, removing prayers for those in Hades. Things like that and changing the the doxologies to meet Anba Bishoy's understanding of the Assumption scare me.

Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set...or at least do so very, very cautiously.  The Church growing and changing organically is one thing.  "Change" or "modernization" for its own sake is something else.

Is there no distinction in Coptic tradition between the act of putting the incense in the censer and the act of censing?  In the Syriac and Armenian traditions, deacons and even minor clerics can cense, but only a priest or a bishop can put the incense in the censer.  And that's with an exegesis of Numbers 6 included in the rite of priestly ordination.  Wink

Fantastic question!

What was the objection to multiple anaphorae?  

Apparently priests were mixing and matching prayers addressed to Father with those addressed to the Son.  Mina explains in another thread:

Some people have advocated that our liturgical tradition seems to be a way that needed an inner consistency.  Some have said that priests should not mix the Basilian and the Gregorian as some priests do at times, because one is prayed to the Father while the other is prayed to the Son, and the Fraction chosen should be done likewise.  That might be the main reason why St. John's liturgy was not synodally approved.  However, I do agree that we should pray those liturgies for the totality of our liturgical tradition.

I really get a kick out of the fact that His Holiness' sakkos has palm trees on it.   Shocked

I know, right!  If we're going to revise our vestments every so often, we need to pick up a set of those!  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2014, 06:18:28 PM »

Omophorion:
-The Copts don't wear an omophorion. They did up until Pope Kyrollos VI, but it was different, wrapping around the head as well. Instead bishops are now differentiated from priests among the Copts by shoulder pads on the phelonion.
The only photo of a Coptic omophorion I've ever seen is of Pope Kyrillos VI wearing one over a tonia (alb) with no other vestments apart, I think, from the episcopal white turban: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ui39E8cpUMc/USsRWrd7aiI/AAAAAAAAAQ8/y55Gtf7_k_Q/s1600/181934_105778756169254_2831228_n.jpg Given that it wraps around the torso twice and then has the two ends pushed under it similar to the Coptic subdeacon's orarion, how would it ever have been worn with other vestments?
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« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2014, 06:36:16 PM »

Omophorion:
-The Copts don't wear an omophorion. They did up until Pope Kyrollos VI, but it was different, wrapping around the head as well. Instead bishops are now differentiated from priests among the Copts by shoulder pads on the phelonion.
The only photo of a Coptic omophorion I've ever seen is of Pope Kyrillos VI wearing one over a tonia (alb) with no other vestments apart, I think, from the episcopal white turban: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ui39E8cpUMc/USsRWrd7aiI/AAAAAAAAAQ8/y55Gtf7_k_Q/s1600/181934_105778756169254_2831228_n.jpg Given that it wraps around the torso twice and then has the two ends pushed under it similar to the Coptic subdeacon's orarion, how would it ever have been worn with other vestments?

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/3143/helslasyrope2yk.jpg

http://st-takla.org/Gallery/var/resizes/Clergy/Coptic-Popes/116-H-H-Pope-Cyril-VI-Baba-Kerolos/13-His-Holines-Pope-Kyrillos-the-Sixth-Face/Pope-Cyril-Standing/www-St-Takla-org--Pope-Kyrillos-VI--El-Baba-Cyril--Face-157.jpg?m=1299816078

A bunch others come up on google images.

The EO great omophorium is also quite intricate, tying around the front and back, though not over the head.
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« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2014, 06:37:37 PM »


Is there no distinction in Coptic tradition between the act of putting the incense in the censer and the act of censing?  In the Syriac and Armenian traditions, deacons and even minor clerics can cense, but only a priest or a bishop can put the incense in the censer.  And that's with an exegesis of Numbers 6 included in the rite of priestly ordination.  Wink


The distinction has been forgotten. It is there. Or was.

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« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2014, 06:41:10 PM »

No, you're right, actual deacons are no longer allowed to cense. I just mean that the reason is that we no longer know what a deacon is, and actually think that a 6 yr old boy is in fact a deacon (albeit a low ranking one), and so of course it makes sense to restrict deacons from censing. Or praying the litanies, or even having the deacon's responses restricted to them and not the 6 year olds when they are there...

You're right, I never noticed how funny it is that we still make modern icons (and have ancient ones) with deacons censing while teaching that the ground should open up and swallow them for doing so.

Okay, so shouldn't we educate the people as to the difference between a real deacon and their six-year-old altar server son (who shouldn't be wearing a mini-badrashil anyway) instead of stripping the actual deacons of the rights accorded to clerics of their rank?  Every other Apostolic Church's deacons can cense but ours because someone can't reign their kids in?  Even the British Orthodox Church, which is technically a part of our patriarchate, allows its deacons to cense, but a man of St. Habib Guirguis's rank can't cense in a Coptic Church because no one wants to explain to Uncle Whoever that his son is not a deacon?  It seems like an easy fix.

God willing, this will be rectified in the future.

I don't think the answer can be persecution when the changes have been so recent.

Any theories as to what it could be then?

Ah, right, I'd forgotten about that, removing prayers for those in Hades. Things like that and changing the the doxologies to meet Anba Bishoy's understanding of the Assumption scare me.

Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set...or at least do so very, very cautiously.  The Church growing and changing organically is one thing.  "Change" or "modernization" for its own sake is something else.

Is there no distinction in Coptic tradition between the act of putting the incense in the censer and the act of censing?  In the Syriac and Armenian traditions, deacons and even minor clerics can cense, but only a priest or a bishop can put the incense in the censer.  And that's with an exegesis of Numbers 6 included in the rite of priestly ordination.  Wink

Fantastic question!

What was the objection to multiple anaphorae?  

Apparently priests were mixing and matching prayers addressed to Father with those addressed to the Son.  Mina explains in another thread:

Some people have advocated that our liturgical tradition seems to be a way that needed an inner consistency.  Some have said that priests should not mix the Basilian and the Gregorian as some priests do at times, because one is prayed to the Father while the other is prayed to the Son, and the Fraction chosen should be done likewise.  That might be the main reason why St. John's liturgy was not synodally approved.  However, I do agree that we should pray those liturgies for the totality of our liturgical tradition.

I really get a kick out of the fact that His Holiness' sakkos has palm trees on it.   Shocked

I know, right!  If we're going to revise our vestments every so often, we need to pick up a set of those!  Grin

It's not uncle so-an-so up in arms... it was the Pope!

Even very knowledgable priests, when a rare full deacon does visit, they don't appreciate that they're a deacon and the kids aren't, they leave the kids to "be deacons" and leave the real deacon hanging around. Restoring the diaconate is no simple thing.

As for theories of how it changes... well, vestments were respected until H.H. Pope Shenouda III was the Pope... Pope Shenouda barred priests from wearing stoles when bishops were present, and they started to get used to not wearing them, and feel like they were dressing up like bishops if they did... When I asked my priest why they can't wear stoles when the bishop was around, he said that you have to dress one step less than the bishop, so you don't upstage them. Deep theology there. Pope Shenouda was often seen celebrating with only a tonia, something unknown before his time.
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« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2014, 06:43:47 PM »


Apparently priests were mixing and matching prayers addressed to Father with those addressed to the Son.  Mina explains in another thread:

Some people have advocated that our liturgical tradition seems to be a way that needed an inner consistency.  Some have said that priests should not mix the Basilian and the Gregorian as some priests do at times, because one is prayed to the Father while the other is prayed to the Son, and the Fraction chosen should be done likewise.  That might be the main reason why St. John's liturgy was not synodally approved.  However, I do agree that we should pray those liturgies for the totality of our liturgical tradition.

If that is the reason... how come it is still common to switch to St. Gregory's (addressed to the Son) at the end of St. Basil's (addressed to the Father--though changing pronouns on the fly to make it fit)? It would seem it didn't work. I've never looked at the other ones, but I was told many of them were later, and at least some of questionable theological integrity, and generally poorly celebrated. Even St. Cyril's we've lost most of the tunes to and just pray it largely like St. Basil's.
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« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2014, 06:58:11 PM »

So the Anaphoras of St. Basil and St Gregory the Theologian are currently suppressed in the Coptic Church?
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« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2014, 06:58:20 PM »

You know what I'd love to see?  If the bishops revive this liturgical dress:


Bishop St. Yousab al Abah (+1826)

Pope St. Kyrillos VI alone had a variety of different liturgical dresses, (this one is my favorite):

http://st-takla.org/Gallery/Clergy/Coptic-Popes/116-H-H-Pope-Cyril-VI-Baba-Kerolos/13-His-Holines-Pope-Kyrillos-the-Sixth-Face/Pope-Cyril-Standing/Pope-Kyrillos-VI--El-Baba-Cyril--Face-150.html
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« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2014, 07:00:19 PM »

So the Anaphoras of St. Basil and St Gregory the Theologian are currently suppressed in the Coptic Church?

No, St. Basil is almost always used. St. Gregory is used primarily on feast days, and parts of it are pasted into St. Basil when there's extra time. St. Cyril's is prayed by some in Lent, but the tunes are lost for its unique prayers, and not all priests have learned it.
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« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2014, 07:09:04 PM »

So the Anaphoras of St. Basil and St Gregory the Theologian are currently suppressed in the Coptic Church?

No, St. Basil is almost always used. St. Gregory is used primarily on feast days, and parts of it are pasted into St. Basil when there's extra time. St. Cyril's is prayed by some in Lent, but the tunes are lost for its unique prayers, and not all priests have learned it.

Now I am confused.  Were any officially suppressed or the less used are just falling out of use?
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« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2014, 07:16:17 PM »



Here's a good pic summarizing the liturgical garbs of bishops in Egypt.  From left to right Pope Kyrillos V (similar to St. Yousab the Abah with the 12 apostles), Pope Macarius III, Pope Kyrillos VI, and Pope Shenouda III



And another one with Pope Youannes XIX (predecessor to Pope Macarius III) with the crown


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« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2014, 07:16:41 PM »

So the Anaphoras of St. Basil and St Gregory the Theologian are currently suppressed in the Coptic Church?

No, St. Basil is almost always used. St. Gregory is used primarily on feast days, and parts of it are pasted into St. Basil when there's extra time. St. Cyril's is prayed by some in Lent, but the tunes are lost for its unique prayers, and not all priests have learned it.

Now I am confused.  Were any officially suppressed or the less used are just falling out of use?

All but these three were removed.
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« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2014, 07:18:56 PM »

So the Anaphoras of St. Basil and St Gregory the Theologian are currently suppressed in the Coptic Church?

No, St. Basil is almost always used. St. Gregory is used primarily on feast days, and parts of it are pasted into St. Basil when there's extra time. St. Cyril's is prayed by some in Lent, but the tunes are lost for its unique prayers, and not all priests have learned it.

Now I am confused.  Were any officially suppressed or the less used are just falling out of use?

All but these three were removed.

I was not aware the Copts used any but those three.  Which ones were removed?
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« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2014, 07:19:52 PM »

It's not uncle so-an-so up in arms... it was the Pope!

No, that's not what I was saying.  Cheesy

His Holiness the Pope was right to be up in arms about readers, chanters, and altar-servers - especially little kids - playing the role of the deacon liturgically, up to and including censing.  With all respect to His Holiness, however (may he pray for my weakness), I don't see how the nuclear option was the best option in this case.  Granted, full deacons are rare, but why strip them of what has always been their liturgical role in order to prevent others from usurping it?  Why not just declare that readers, chanters, and altar servers should no longer be doing certain things and that these things are reserved for the (admittedly rare) full deacons?

To my mind, this is like saying that boy scouts have been acting like cops, so now cops can no longer act like cops, instead of just telling the boy scouts to fall back.

As far as Uncle Whoever being up in arms about his kids no longer being able to do everything he'd like to see them do, I mean the dude who thinks he's real important in the church, so even though Abouna says no "deacons" can vest after a certain time, he routinely comes in well after that point and sends his sons up to the altar, tonias in hand, confident that no priest (short of H.G. Anba Makarios - may God preserve his life!) will have the guts to send them back to the pew.

Even very knowledgable priests, when a rare full deacon does visit, they don't appreciate that they're a deacon and the kids aren't, they leave the kids to "be deacons" and leave the real deacon hanging around. Restoring the diaconate is no simple thing.

Okay, so where do we start?  As per usual, I'd suggest that education of the laity is the best place.  Just leaving our full deacons declawed and neutered is not an option.

As for theories of how it changes... well, vestments were respected until H.H. Pope Shenouda III was the Pope... Pope Shenouda barred priests from wearing stoles when bishops were present, and they started to get used to not wearing them, and feel like they were dressing up like bishops if they did... When I asked my priest why they can't wear stoles when the bishop was around, he said that you have to dress one step less than the bishop, so you don't upstage them. Deep theology there. Pope Shenouda was often seen celebrating with only a tonia, something unknown before his time.

Wow.  Can't "upstage" the bishop by wearing what's proper to a priest?  Dressing up like bishops by wearing what every other Orthodox priest in the world wears?  I love the humility of the Copts, but this is another area where a little education could make all the difference.

So all that said, we're talking about a mere four decades here.  What's stopping us from having a renaissance concerning all things liturgical and returning to the most positive aspects of times still within living memory?

You know what I'd love to see?  If the bishops revive this liturgical dress:


Bishop St. Yousab al Abah (+1826)

Pope St. Kyrillos VI alone had a variety of different liturgical dresses, (this one is my favorite):

http://st-takla.org/Gallery/Clergy/Coptic-Popes/116-H-H-Pope-Cyril-VI-Baba-Kerolos/13-His-Holines-Pope-Kyrillos-the-Sixth-Face/Pope-Cyril-Standing/Pope-Kyrillos-VI--El-Baba-Cyril--Face-150.html

Agreed on both counts!  The Syrians still wear something similar to this, and it is beautiful!



Here's a good pic summarizing the liturgical garbs of bishops in Egypt.  From left to right Pope Kyrillos V (similar to St. Yousab the Abah with the 12 apostles), Pope Macarius III, Pope Kyrillos VI, and Pope Shenouda III



And another one with Pope Youannes XIX (predecessor to Pope Macarius III) with the crown


Wow.  The earlier the pic, the more gorgeous the vestments.  Like I said, we need a renaissance!  Things like this (sights, sounds, smells) engage all the senses and help people to appreciate the glory and majesty of the Liturgy.

How many times have you heard Copts lament that they feel like "poor cousins" after attending Byzantine liturgies?  That wouldn't be the case if we rediscovered the heavenly grandeur of our own tradition!  Coptic renaissance now!  Grin
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« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2014, 08:32:57 PM »

It's not uncle so-an-so up in arms... it was the Pope!

No, that's not what I was saying.  Cheesy

His Holiness the Pope was right to be up in arms about readers, chanters, and altar-servers - especially little kids - playing the role of the deacon liturgically, up to and including censing.  With all respect to His Holiness, however (may he pray for my weakness), I don't see how the nuclear option was the best option in this case.  Granted, full deacons are rare, but why strip them of what has always been their liturgical role in order to prevent others from usurping it?  Why not just declare that readers, chanters, and altar servers should no longer be doing certain things and that these things are reserved for the (admittedly rare) full deacons?

To my mind, this is like saying that boy scouts have been acting like cops, so now cops can no longer act like cops, instead of just telling the boy scouts to fall back.

As far as Uncle Whoever being up in arms about his kids no longer being able to do everything he'd like to see them do, I mean the dude who thinks he's real important in the church, so even though Abouna says no "deacons" can vest after a certain time, he routinely comes in well after that point and sends his sons up to the altar, tonias in hand, confident that no priest (short of H.G. Anba Makarios - may God preserve his life!) will have the guts to send them back to the pew.

Even very knowledgable priests, when a rare full deacon does visit, they don't appreciate that they're a deacon and the kids aren't, they leave the kids to "be deacons" and leave the real deacon hanging around. Restoring the diaconate is no simple thing.

Okay, so where do we start?  As per usual, I'd suggest that education of the laity is the best place.  Just leaving our full deacons declawed and neutered is not an option.

As for theories of how it changes... well, vestments were respected until H.H. Pope Shenouda III was the Pope... Pope Shenouda barred priests from wearing stoles when bishops were present, and they started to get used to not wearing them, and feel like they were dressing up like bishops if they did... When I asked my priest why they can't wear stoles when the bishop was around, he said that you have to dress one step less than the bishop, so you don't upstage them. Deep theology there. Pope Shenouda was often seen celebrating with only a tonia, something unknown before his time.

Wow.  Can't "upstage" the bishop by wearing what's proper to a priest?  Dressing up like bishops by wearing what every other Orthodox priest in the world wears?  I love the humility of the Copts, but this is another area where a little education could make all the difference.

So all that said, we're talking about a mere four decades here.  What's stopping us from having a renaissance concerning all things liturgical and returning to the most positive aspects of times still within living memory?

Ah, but H.H. did not ban minor orders from censing, but deacons. I believe that in H.H.'s mind, and in the minds of our priests, a deacon is a deacon. A chanter is a deacon, a reader is a deacon, etc. What sets a consecrated deacon apart is not so much their diaconate, but that they are consecrated to the church, that they have vowed not to marry, that they cannot hold employment outside the church. But not that they're more of a deacon than a chanter, just a higher rank of deacon... just like an archbishop is not more of a bishop than a bishop.

You are right. Ours dress after the Gospel now too. You can't just enforce the rule. Once you let everyone "be a deacon", then you can't say no to a few kids because their parents brought them late, it's not their fault.. It's only going to get worse/more absurd until it starts being a service again, with worthy people chosen as needed, like the EO do, rather than a right of every 6 year old male.

What's stopping us from having a renaissance? I talk about this stuff to those who will listen... but now that they've grown up with it, I sound crazy. It's much easier to let people get away with stuff than to "take away the rights of deaconship". But we try.
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« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2014, 08:38:37 PM »

Ah, but H.H. did not ban minor orders from censing, but deacons. I believe that in H.H.'s mind, and in the minds of our priests, a deacon is a deacon. A chanter is a deacon, a reader is a deacon, etc. What sets a consecrated deacon apart is not so much their diaconate, but that they are consecrated to the church, that they have vowed not to marry, that they cannot hold employment outside the church. But not that they're more of a deacon than a chanter, just a higher rank of deacon... just like an archbishop is not more of a bishop than a bishop.

Oh, wow.  That's a serious allegation.  So the Patriarch of Alexandria wasn't clear on what a deacon was?  And since when do consecrated deacons have to be celibate?  I know plenty of married deacons in various EO and OO traditions.

It's only going to get worse/more absurd until it starts being a service again, with worthy people chosen as needed, like the EO do, rather than a right of every 6 year old male.

Agreed.

What's stopping us from having a renaissance? I talk about this stuff to those who will listen... but now that they've grown up with it, I sound crazy. It's much easier to let people get away with stuff than to "take away the rights of deaconship". But we try.

We're on the same page here.  Let's work and pray together for our beloved Church.  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2014, 09:11:34 PM »

I wouldn't be surprised if, if pressed, they could articulate the difference. But now that they've lived their whole lives seeing the current practice, even if theoretically they know better, in practice they tend to make decisions as if a chanter were a deacon.

Now, as to whether or not they actually know better if pressed... have you read H.G. Anba Mettaous' book?

http://copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/7_priesthood.html

It makes it quite clear that a chanter is a kind of deacon (which is not what I believe) and also lists rules for vesting that are quite different than what would historically be the norm (saying that what the Greeks developed as a style to distinguish the Archdeacon from the deacon is in fact the proper vesting of a reader for example...) and various other questionable ideas.

Now, H.G. is saintly, and is just passing down what he has received. But there is no scholarly analysis or fact checking, just a blind passing down of what got made up at some point. And this from the head of the ritual subcommittee of the synod.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 09:13:20 PM by Jonathan » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2014, 09:19:00 PM »

I wouldn't be surprised if, if pressed, they could articulate the difference. But now that they've lived their whole lives seeing the current practice, even if theoretically they know better, in practice they tend to make decisions as if a chanter were a deacon.

Now, as to whether or not they actually know better if pressed... have you read H.G. Anba Mettaous' book?

http://copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/7_priesthood.html

It makes it quite clear that a chanter is a kind of deacon (which is not what I believe) and also lists rules for vesting that are quite different than what would historically be the norm (saying that what the Greeks developed as a style to distinguish the Archdeacon from the deacon is in fact the proper vesting of a reader for example...) and various other questionable ideas.

Now, H.G. is saintly, and is just passing down what he has received. But there is no scholarly analysis or fact checking, just a blind passing down of what got made up at some point. And this from the head of the ritual subcommittee of the synod.



First time I actually realized the faultiness of his "research" was when he claimed celibate episcopacy began at the council of Nicea.  Quite honestly, there needs to be a Renaissance of theological study, research, and training before we get to the Renaissance of vesting Tongue
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 09:20:17 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2014, 10:07:05 PM »

I wouldn't be surprised if, if pressed, they could articulate the difference. But now that they've lived their whole lives seeing the current practice, even if theoretically they know better, in practice they tend to make decisions as if a chanter were a deacon.

Now, as to whether or not they actually know better if pressed... have you read H.G. Anba Mettaous' book?

http://copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/7_priesthood.html

It makes it quite clear that a chanter is a kind of deacon (which is not what I believe) and also lists rules for vesting that are quite different than what would historically be the norm (saying that what the Greeks developed as a style to distinguish the Archdeacon from the deacon is in fact the proper vesting of a reader for example...) and various other questionable ideas.

Now, H.G. is saintly, and is just passing down what he has received. But there is no scholarly analysis or fact checking, just a blind passing down of what got made up at some point. And this from the head of the ritual subcommittee of the synod.


Do they have anything comparable to the Fifth Amendment in Canada?  If so, I decline to comment based on that... Wink

First time I actually realized the faultiness of his "research" was when he claimed celibate episcopacy began at the council of Nicea.  Quite honestly, there needs to be a Renaissance of theological study, research, and training before we get to the Renaissance of vesting Tongue

Amen.  But I wasn't referring to a renaissance of vesting alone, but of all things concerned with the Liturgy.
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