Topic: Is the Cosmological Principle dead ?

[davillas]

Hi, few days ago i found this weird interview from 2005 with Lawrence Krauss.

http://www.edge.org/conversation/the-energy-of-empty-space-that-isn-39t-zero

Look at this quote :

But when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That's crazy. We're looking out at the whole universe. There's no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun — the plane of the earth around the sun — the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe. The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is imply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird about the microwave background results and that maybe, maybe there's something wrong with our theories on the larger scales. And of course as a theorist I'm certainly hoping it's the latter, because I want theory to be wrong, not right, because if it's wrong there's still work left for the rest of us.

I was curious about this and i searched more on the internet. I have found out that on the CMB map there is an anomaly, they called it " the axis of evil " and really is aligned with the eliptic. It was already confirmed by Planck telescope in 2013.

Also on the ESA website they claim that Planck reveals an almost perfect universe. But then you see things like these :

http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Planck/Planck_reveals_an_almost_perfect_Universe

"One of the most surprising findings is that the fluctuations in the CMB temperatures at large angular scales do not match those predicted by the standard model "

"Another is an asymmetry in the average temperatures on opposite hemispheres of the sky. This runs counter to the prediction made by the standard model that the Universe should be broadly similar in any direction we look."

Isn`t this like saying that the fundations of our cosmology are contrary to what we can see in the universe ? And yet, the universe is almost perfect from their point of view.
Maybe they will come up with another "dark something" to fill the gaps between papers and observations, or maybe we will see a revolution in cosmology.

I see some catholics have made a movie about neo-geocentrism ( Tycho Brahe model ). Maybe they will finally get their revenge after 400 years. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8cBvMCucTg

[Gunnarr]

too many big words cannot comprehend

[FormerCalvinist]

That would say we are truly the center of the universe. The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe...

St. Joshua and St. David already let us know several thousand years ago (Jos. 10:12-13; Psa. 93:1).

[Incognito777]

The Cosmological Argument is powerful and thriving today. William Lane Craig debated and defeated Krauss. The video is on Youtube. William Lane Craig accurately explains the power and force of the Cosmological argument. I have seen most of Craig's debates with atheists. No atheist can stand-up to him. I don't care who they are.

[orthonorm]

The cosmological argument is about the stupidest argument ever to be taken seriously by a philosopher and that is saying something.

If you can't figure out the most obvious fallacy of that argument, then really you should probably be spending your time getting your MBA.

[FormerCalvinist]

This thread is about the cosmological principle not the cosmological argument.

[orthonorm]

This thread is about the cosmological principle not the cosmological argument.

And?

[FormerCalvinist]

This thread is about the cosmological principle not the cosmological argument.

And?

How is your MBA going?

[orthonorm]

This thread is about the cosmological principle not the cosmological argument.

And?

How is your MBA going?

OK, I am learning how to send grandma packing on Christmas eve this semester.

[truthseeker32]

David Bentley Hart adresses Krauss's claims in his new book, The Experience of God: Being, Consciousness, and Bliss, and, in my opinion, easily demonstrates why Krauss is mistaken when he claims he has done away with the need for a supernatural explanation of the universe.

[Jonathan Gress]

It seems davillas' definition of "cosmological principle" is not the same as the one current physicists use. Perhaps he means "is the pre-Newtonian cosmological principle dead?", that principle being that the earth is fixed at the center of the universe.

I suppose the question is whether the pre-Newtonian principle explains what we see better than the post-Newtonian. It wasn't clear from the conversation that this is the case. E.g. the differences we see depending on the position of the earth in orbit may reveal that the solar system is at the center of the universe, but not that the earth is.

[davillas]

It seems davillas' definition of "cosmological principle" is not the same as the one current physicists use. Perhaps he means "is the pre-Newtonian cosmological principle dead?", that principle being that the earth is fixed at the center of the universe.

I suppose the question is whether the pre-Newtonian principle explains what we see better than the post-Newtonian. It wasn't clear from the conversation that this is the case. E.g. the differences we see depending on the position of the earth in orbit may reveal that the solar system is at the center of the universe, but not that the earth is.

Hi Jonathan and thanks for your reply !
There were 2 different things i wanted to point out.
First: What does it mean for the universe to have a center ? Let`s say the solar system is the center. Krauss was talking about this "axis of evil " in 2005 and now it is confirmed. I don`t expect to hear that we are in the center but we can speculate. 
Also there are equations made that prove we don`t need to come up with the dark energy to explain something. The same person, Krauss said something like " the math is good but that will mean we are in the center of the universe and that`s impossible. "  

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2009/08/68497142/1

Second : What do you understand when you read this : "Another is an asymmetry in the average temperatures on opposite hemispheres of the sky. This runs counter to the prediction made by the standard model that the Universe should be broadly similar in any direction we look." ESA - Planck mission report

What tells us that the Universe should be similar in any direction we look ? Isn`t that the cosmological principle ?

Look here another one :

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2013/11/the-largest-discovered-structure-in-the-universe-contradicts-big-bang-theory-cosmology-weekend-featu.html

This LQG challenges the Cosmological Principle, the assumption that the universe, when viewed at a sufficiently large scale, looks the same no matter where you are observing it from. The modern theory of cosmology is based on the work of Albert Einstein, and depends on the assumption of the Cosmological Principle. The principle is assumed, but has never been demonstrated observationally 'beyond reasonable doubt.'

Then we can talk about what is in the center of the universe, tough i don`t want to argue for geocentrism.Those catholics are making a good  movie and it will probably make a lot of noise. If you have any ideas for why it is wrong or if you know of any experiment that proved it wrong then you can find them and talk with them on Fb, just search for The principle movie.  

[davillas]

David Bentley Hart adresses Krauss's claims in his new book, The Experience of God: Being, Consciousness, and Bliss, and, in my opinion, easily demonstrates why Krauss is mistaken when he claims he has done away with the need for a supernatural explanation of the universe.

Hi truthseeker, i don`t think we are talking about the same thing, maybe that book deals with what Krauss claims in his book " An universe from nothing". That is atheist propaganda and i think it`s a lost of time to argue with it, here i quoted something from an interview with Krauss from 2005. The thing is Planck mission confirmed that on the Cosmick Microwave Radiation there is an axis and it is exactly the axis of the eliptic plan on which the Earth rotates around the sun. And that is amazing, no matter if they will try to diminish the importance of this. Read that interview with Krauss and you`ll understand how important this is.

This is what i am talking about

[davillas]

Here is another one from november 2013:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1311.1104
Research over the past three decades has revolutionized the field of cosmology while supporting the standard cosmological model. However, the cosmological principle of Universal homogeneity and isotropy has always been in question, since structures as large as the survey size have always been found as the survey size has increased...The size of the structure defined by these GRBs is about 2000-3000 Mpc, or more than six times the size of the largest known object (SGW) in the Universe

[davillas]

Here is a youtube video with a show where those catholics are talking about their movie : The Principle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIqsVMQGoK0#t=252

The movie looks great, they spent some money on it and even if we are not the center of the universe we will at least see  Kate Mulgrew (Cpt. Janeway from Star Trek) again.