OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 29, 2014, 04:12:23 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Autocephaly  (Read 2559 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #90 on: January 10, 2014, 12:37:19 PM »

The opening remarks qualify everything said afterwards.  I think it is important to get his perspective, and this was far from a throw-away line or a slip of the tongue.  He went on from there to expand it, and so this is the dialectic of the process from their perspective. 

To my ears, the twenty seconds being focused upon need to be heard in the entirety of the Metropolitan's carefully measured words. If we play "gotcha", as is the norm in modern secular, political America, NOTHING will ever come of a unified entity.


Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,020



« Reply #91 on: January 10, 2014, 12:41:41 PM »

To my ears, the twenty seconds being focused upon need to be heard in the entirety of the Metropolitan's carefully measured words. If we play "gotcha", as is the norm in modern secular, political America, NOTHING will ever come of a unified entity.



You're always a voice for rationality, "podkarpatska."
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,020



« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2014, 12:45:17 PM »

I absolutely agree that unified ministry and service to the American community in the name of God will lead to administrative unity.  However, I take Metropolitan Savvas at his word (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjLQMSgVTM0#t=103) that unity means an end to autocephaly as far as the Assembly of Bishops is concerned as conceived by the Patriarchate of Constantinople.
I've seen this presented as a smoking gun elsewhere, Father, but I don't understand how His Eminence's words are being parsed to see the smoke.  What precisely did H.E. say?
(my thoughts on the Phanar's intentions with the Episcopal Assemblies are well known: the mouthpiece let that slip/pushed the envelope at Holy Cross "The submission of the diaspora to the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not mean either Hellenization or violation of the canonical order, because it is only in this way that both the letter and the spirit of the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils is respected. The Mother Church knows, however, that such a submission is difficult to be accomplished under the present historical conditions. For this reason, and by employing the principle of economy, it was suggested and it has now become accepted in Pan-Orthodox level, that there will be local Pan-Orthodox Episcopal Assemblies in the diaspora (like SCOBA in the US). The principle of presidency is followed, namely the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate presides over these Episcopal Assemblies in order to preserve the necessary element of canonicity.")
http://www.ecclesia.gr/englishnews/default.asp?id=3986#sthash.s5jhkCcD.dpuf

In the YouTube video of the Orthodox-Forum at the Orthodox Christian Church of the Holy Trinity, in Parma, Ohio, from last October, that's me beginning at "16.37."
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,237


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #93 on: January 10, 2014, 12:56:18 PM »

To my ears, the twenty seconds being focused upon need to be heard in the entirety of the Metropolitan's carefully measured words. If we play "gotcha", as is the norm in modern secular, political America, NOTHING will ever come of a unified entity.



You're always a voice for rationality, "podkarpatska."

I still don't see the boogeyman of a supposed Hellenic plot. His Eminence speaks wisely of the many real differences among us that will not go away by waving the banner of independence or unity. Frankly, at this point in time our obsession with legalism over substance seems to me to be Orthodoxy's greatest hinderance in America.  A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

The uneasy status quo seems preferable at this juncture.

Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,456



« Reply #94 on: January 10, 2014, 01:05:03 PM »

To my ears, the twenty seconds being focused upon need to be heard in the entirety of the Metropolitan's carefully measured words. If we play "gotcha", as is the norm in modern secular, political America, NOTHING will ever come of a unified entity.



You're always a voice for rationality, "podkarpatska."

I still don't see the boogeyman of a supposed Hellenic plot. His Eminence speaks wisely of the many real differences among us that will not go away by waving the banner of independence or unity. Frankly, at this point in time our obsession with legalism over substance seems to me to be Orthodoxy's greatest hinderance in America.  A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

The uneasy status quo seems preferable at this juncture.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) a Metropolitan with too much time on his hands (not having a flock to tend to) just made a shot across the bow into a direct hit on the largest and most powerful of the "local Churches,"  putting another hole into the hull of U.S.S. Status Quo.

Events do not stand still.  Either you shape them or are shaped by them.

Btw, in the long litany of "nuts and bots" that H.E. listed (all valid, btw), H.E. did not explain how an autocephalous Church would be inflicted with them more than the "Diapora" Church would, except that the autocephalous Church would have to deal with Faithful who want to keep their link to the "Mother Church": which of course means the EA won't accomplish a "canonical solution," given that they all don't look to the same "Mother Church."  At least they are all living in the same jurisdictional territory of the OCA.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 01:13:28 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2014, 01:14:14 PM »

Yes, the status quo is the easiest.  Look at what has happened with so many of our communities under it.

The question should not be about what we want, but what will work.  This is my challenge to all the churches, not just the Greeks.  Sure the Greeks take the brunt, but only because they are pushing this assembly system the hardest and want to take the lead.  Fine.  Show me your plan for evangelization and public ministries.

I have the same challenge for Moscow or any other church: show me where you are willing to serve ALL the people rather than just YOUR people.  If we continue with the 'us-first-and-only' model, we will die. 

Frankly, the American community is spoiled enough without more enabling of our present isolationism.  We have been treated like a mission to 'our people' for long enough.

By saying that autocephaly is off the table as part of a solution, it shows that there is an assumption that there will be a perpetual un-integrated Orthodox community in America that will always be administered from afar.  This will not work.  It isn't working.

What's hilarious is that, in effect, he is asking all but one of the Mother Churches to break ties.  Go back and listen to what he is describing.  Who's ready to do that?  Greeks?  Russians?  Is the OCA ready to throw in its autocephaly?  I can tell you with no uncertainty that Antioch is not ready to cuts ties in the least, and most of us expect the next metropolitan to actually pull the North American Archdiocese (or whatever new eparchies are formed from it) even closer to the Patriarchate.

That's the reality we need to be grounded in.  Unless it hurts equally for everyone, no one is going to accept any plan whatsoever, and there are plenty more who will never accept anything short of a status quo.


To my ears, the twenty seconds being focused upon need to be heard in the entirety of the Metropolitan's carefully measured words. If we play "gotcha", as is the norm in modern secular, political America, NOTHING will ever come of a unified entity.



You're always a voice for rationality, "podkarpatska."

I still don't see the boogeyman of a supposed Hellenic plot. His Eminence speaks wisely of the many real differences among us that will not go away by waving the banner of independence or unity. Frankly, at this point in time our obsession with legalism over substance seems to me to be Orthodoxy's greatest hinderance in America.  A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

The uneasy status quo seems preferable at this juncture.


Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,237


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2014, 03:47:13 PM »

What is coming, I fear, is a war no one wants, but one certain quarters will cause. The so called American problem is a direct result of our very ecclesiology. For better or worse we are organized on this planet by national churches, each of which possesses the fullness of the Faith, but each expressing it in a somewhat different fashion.

Converts have to accept this reality: Greek-, Russian-, Ukrainian-, Serbian-,Romanian-,Palestinian-, Arab-, Rusyn-, whatever-Americans are fully American and fully Orhodox but we do cherish the traditions of our ancestors. We sense - rightly or not - that the so called non-ethnic recent convert Orthodox view us as somehow being deficient because we cherish these things.

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

Frankly I, for one, am tired of the subject and the discussion. I've heard it over again and again for nearly fifty years and nothing changes.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2014, 04:18:51 PM »

I would say that the 'American Problem' is a direct result of NOT following our ecclesiology.  Even Met. Savvas says that we are dealing with an 'anomaly' that is not normative.

I also don't know too many American converts who want to take away anyone else's practices.  To be honest, Americans have none of their own practices really.  We are all using 'borrowed' materials.  There are also quite a few Americans who like the 'every-parish-for-itself' model that we presently operate under.

What many American converts do react to is when holding these 'time-honored traditions' means that the only access to Orthodoxy in a particular area is that group thinking of themselves and what they like or remember.  It is this self-indulgence that becomes a problem, where the parish forgets that it, too, has a role in the Great Commandment.  Newcomers come, and are welcomed to either be 'absorbed' into this local culture... or go away.

Some ethnic parishes are able to integrate newcomers, and those are the parishes that have an excellent long-term prognosis.  However, there are plenty of dying parishes where there are just a few die-hards left from the old days, and we watch as they slowly evaporate.  What many converts hate to see is a dying church.

Of course, nothing will change because the pattern repeats itself: nobody wants to give up the time-honored tradition of doing our own thing and not being bossed around or not being required to change.  But, every parish has to change, or it will die.


What is coming, I fear, is a war no one wants, but one certain quarters will cause. The so called American problem is a direct result of our very ecclesiology. For better or worse we are organized on this planet by national churches, each of which possesses the fullness of the Faith, but each expressing it in a somewhat different fashion.

Converts have to accept this reality: Greek-, Russian-, Ukrainian-, Serbian-,Romanian-,Palestinian-, Arab-, Rusyn-, whatever-Americans are fully American and fully Orhodox but we do cherish the traditions of our ancestors. We sense - rightly or not - that the so called non-ethnic recent convert Orthodox view us as somehow being deficient because we cherish these things.

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

Frankly I, for one, am tired of the subject and the discussion. I've heard it over again and again for nearly fifty years and nothing changes.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,697



« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2014, 06:56:48 PM »

What is coming, I fear, is a war no one wants, but one certain quarters will cause. The so called American problem is a direct result of our very ecclesiology. For better or worse we are organized on this planet by national churches, each of which possesses the fullness of the Faith, but each expressing it in a somewhat different fashion.


This is very true; "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." He did not say "make disciples of all provinces, dioceses or regions, did He?
Why can't Canada, the USA, Mexico, Brazil, etc.. be considered nations in the Biblical sense? It seems to me that the Lord was acknowledging a natural order and it does not make sense to pretend that the nations in the so-called diaspora will forever be mere hosts to several ethnic groups, preferably organized into ethnic ghettos. Put another way, is the preservation of ethnic differences is more important than the Great Commission? 
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 16,388


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2014, 07:18:30 PM »

This is very true; "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." He did not say "make disciples of all provinces, dioceses or regions, did He?
Why can't Canada, the USA, Mexico, Brazil, etc.. be considered nations in the Biblical sense?

I would say it is because they coincide with political borders just as much as the Roman set-up.  It's not like anyone's advocating for a "Cherokee Orthodox Church" and a "Navajo Orthodox Church" and an "Appalachian Orthodox Church", etc.  As I understand the biblical term for "nation" (and perhaps I'm wrong), the US has any number of nations within its "national" borders.  The other countries you named have the same issue.  Many large countries can say the same.  Unless we are comfortable with a million, small, autocephalous Churches, I think the argument in favour of "national Churches" needs to be made apart from a reference to the Great Commission. 

It would be more reasonable, IMO, to argue that the organisation of the world in the 21st century doesn't follow the same pattern as the Roman Empire, and so we should apply the latter example of accommodation to the world political structure to the world as we know it today.  If anything, it was that principle, and not the exact order of cities, that was enshrined in canonical legislation.  Apply it today and watch the sparks fly.  Wink         
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,442



« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2014, 07:22:12 PM »

This is very true; "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." He did not say "make disciples of all provinces, dioceses or regions, did He?
Why can't Canada, the USA, Mexico, Brazil, etc.. be considered nations in the Biblical sense?

I would say it is because they coincide with political borders just as much as the Roman set-up.  It's not like anyone's advocating for a "Cherokee Orthodox Church" and a "Navajo Orthodox Church" and an "Appalachian Orthodox Church", etc.  As I understand the biblical term for "nation" (and perhaps I'm wrong), the US has any number of nations within its "national" borders.  The other countries you named have the same issue.  Many large countries can say the same.  Unless we are comfortable with a million, small, autocephalous Churches, I think the argument in favour of "national Churches" needs to be made apart from a reference to the Great Commission. 

It would be more reasonable, IMO, to argue that the organisation of the world in the 21st century doesn't follow the same pattern as the Roman Empire, and so we should apply the latter example of accommodation to the world political structure to the world as we know it today.  If anything, it was that principle, and not the exact order of cities, that was enshrined in canonical legislation.  Apply it today and watch the sparks fly.  Wink         

I think a million might be an exaggeration, but would there really be anything so wrong with having hundreds of small autocephalous Churches? You could still have an order of precedence and it would solve many of the issues that we have now in the Ukraine, Macedonia, USA, etc.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 16,388


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2014, 07:27:51 PM »

I think a million might be an exaggeration, but would there really be anything so wrong with having hundreds of small autocephalous Churches? You could still have an order of precedence and it would solve many of the issues that we have now in the Ukraine, Macedonia, USA, etc.

How do you figure?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,442



« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2014, 07:41:01 PM »

I think a million might be an exaggeration, but would there really be anything so wrong with having hundreds of small autocephalous Churches? You could still have an order of precedence and it would solve many of the issues that we have now in the Ukraine, Macedonia, USA, etc.

How do you figure?
Not quite sure I know what you are asking. Are you inquiring how do I figure that it would solve many of the issues? It if it just accepted that there is an autocephalous Church of Ukraine, Church of Russia, Church of Belarus, Church of Kazakstan, you wouldn't have the MP trying to control Ukraine or the USA Church, or at least not to the extent that it is today.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,456



« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2014, 07:50:52 PM »

This is very true; "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." He did not say "make disciples of all provinces, dioceses or regions, did He?
Why can't Canada, the USA, Mexico, Brazil, etc.. be considered nations in the Biblical sense?

I would say it is because they coincide with political borders just as much as the Roman set-up.  It's not like anyone's advocating for a "Cherokee Orthodox Church" and a "Navajo Orthodox Church" and an "Appalachian Orthodox Church", etc.  As I understand the biblical term for "nation" (and perhaps I'm wrong), the US has any number of nations within its "national" borders.  The other countries you named have the same issue.  Many large countries can say the same.  Unless we are comfortable with a million, small, autocephalous Churches, I think the argument in favour of "national Churches" needs to be made apart from a reference to the Great Commission. 

It would be more reasonable, IMO, to argue that the organisation of the world in the 21st century doesn't follow the same pattern as the Roman Empire, and so we should apply the latter example of accommodation to the world political structure to the world as we know it today.  If anything, it was that principle, and not the exact order of cities, that was enshrined in canonical legislation.  Apply it today and watch the sparks fly.  Wink         

I think a million might be an exaggeration, but would there really be anything so wrong with having hundreds of small autocephalous Churches? You could still have an order of precedence and it would solve many of the issues that we have now in the Ukraine, Macedonia, USA, etc.
I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 16,388


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2014, 07:56:04 PM »

Not quite sure I know what you are asking. Are you inquiring how do I figure that it would solve many of the issues? It if it just accepted that there is an autocephalous Church of Ukraine, Church of Russia, Church of Belarus, Church of Kazakstan, you wouldn't have the MP trying to control Ukraine or the USA Church, or at least not to the extent that it is today.

If Churches cannot abide by the canons now, they're not going to be more inclined to do so just because there's more of them.  And that's not to pick on the Russians, since you have called them out: everyone has these issues to one extent or another. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,442



« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2014, 08:01:48 PM »

Not quite sure I know what you are asking. Are you inquiring how do I figure that it would solve many of the issues? It if it just accepted that there is an autocephalous Church of Ukraine, Church of Russia, Church of Belarus, Church of Kazakstan, you wouldn't have the MP trying to control Ukraine or the USA Church, or at least not to the extent that it is today.

If Churches cannot abide by the canons now, they're not going to be more inclined to do so just because there's more of them.  And that's not to pick on the Russians, since you have called them out: everyone has these issues to one extent or another. 
Perhaps, but the effects would not be quite so devastating.  When huge organizations have conflicts, it makes worldwide news.  If the Autocephalous Church of Kazakstan and the Autocephalous Church of Tajikistan have a dispute, it isn't as big of a deal as a Patriarch who is in charge of 40% of the world's land mass.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 16,388


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2014, 09:37:25 PM »

Perhaps, but the effects would not be quite so devastating.  When huge organizations have conflicts, it makes worldwide news.  If the Autocephalous Church of Kazakstan and the Autocephalous Church of Tajikistan have a dispute, it isn't as big of a deal as a Patriarch who is in charge of 40% of the world's land mass.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'm not seeing it that way. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,237


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2014, 09:43:43 PM »

This is very true; "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." He did not say "make disciples of all provinces, dioceses or regions, did He?
Why can't Canada, the USA, Mexico, Brazil, etc.. be considered nations in the Biblical sense?

I would say it is because they coincide with political borders just as much as the Roman set-up.  It's not like anyone's advocating for a "Cherokee Orthodox Church" and a "Navajo Orthodox Church" and an "Appalachian Orthodox Church", etc.  As I understand the biblical term for "nation" (and perhaps I'm wrong), the US has any number of nations within its "national" borders.  The other countries you named have the same issue.  Many large countries can say the same.  Unless we are comfortable with a million, small, autocephalous Churches, I think the argument in favour of "national Churches" needs to be made apart from a reference to the Great Commission. 

It would be more reasonable, IMO, to argue that the organisation of the world in the 21st century doesn't follow the same pattern as the Roman Empire, and so we should apply the latter example of accommodation to the world political structure to the world as we know it today.  If anything, it was that principle, and not the exact order of cities, that was enshrined in canonical legislation.  Apply it today and watch the sparks fly.  Wink         


Exactly.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,456



« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2014, 12:17:31 AM »

This is very true; "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." He did not say "make disciples of all provinces, dioceses or regions, did He?
Why can't Canada, the USA, Mexico, Brazil, etc.. be considered nations in the Biblical sense?

I would say it is because they coincide with political borders just as much as the Roman set-up.  It's not like anyone's advocating for a "Cherokee Orthodox Church" and a "Navajo Orthodox Church" and an "Appalachian Orthodox Church", etc.  As I understand the biblical term for "nation" (and perhaps I'm wrong), the US has any number of nations within its "national" borders.  The other countries you named have the same issue.  Many large countries can say the same.  Unless we are comfortable with a million, small, autocephalous Churches, I think the argument in favour of "national Churches" needs to be made apart from a reference to the Great Commission. 

It would be more reasonable, IMO, to argue that the organisation of the world in the 21st century doesn't follow the same pattern as the Roman Empire, and so we should apply the latter example of accommodation to the world political structure to the world as we know it today.  If anything, it was that principle, and not the exact order of cities, that was enshrined in canonical legislation.  Apply it today and watch the sparks fly.  Wink         


Exactly.
Not sure what is meant.  If ya'll mean that Rome isn't the center of the universe, yeah the world today is different.  If it means big countries dictate to small countries or beat the crap out of them....that is still going on.

Even if Russia recreated the territory of the old Soviet Union, there is no reason why that precludes an autocephalous Ukraine, Belarus etc.  The Roman Empire had 6 autocephalous Churches in it.  Georgia had its autocephaly back throughout the Soviet Period.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
kyril
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian (Orthodox)
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Canada - OCA
Posts: 239


« Reply #109 on: January 11, 2014, 01:03:16 AM »

it would be nice
, as I was told repeatedly in my catechumenate, if we ( North America) could go back to to the ancient practice of one city/one bishop.
Never happen:
"that's not the way it was in The Old Country." (This from 4th generation Canadians who probably couldn't even point to The Old Country on a map.)
When I converted, a year ago, at 71, I was too old to learn Arabic and there were no Antiochean parishes nearby anyway. So I went to the nearby all- English OCA --- not 'autocephalous'? - well, at least it's Orthodox, thank God!
You seem, all, to be pursuing a 'tempest in a teapot.'
Isn't our Faith, and our love for our Saviour and God just too HUGE! to waste time in little quibbles like this?
Logged

kyril
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,237


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #110 on: January 11, 2014, 09:44:26 AM »

it would be nice
, as I was told repeatedly in my catechumenate, if we ( North America) could go back to to the ancient practice of one city/one bishop.
Never happen:
"that's not the way it was in The Old Country." (This from 4th generation Canadians who probably couldn't even point to The Old Country on a map.)
When I converted, a year ago, at 71, I was too old to learn Arabic and there were no Antiochean parishes nearby anyway. So I went to the nearby all- English OCA --- not 'autocephalous'? - well, at least it's Orthodox, thank God!
You seem, all, to be pursuing a 'tempest in a teapot.'
Isn't our Faith, and our love for our Saviour and God just too HUGE! to waste time in little quibbles like this?

With age, comes wisdom. This is a tempest in a teapot if ever there were one indeed!

Welcome!
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2014, 10:06:37 AM »

A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

What doctrinal or dogmatic errors in other jurisdictions do you want to correect prior to uniting?

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

In 2 generations UOC-USA will be as Ukrainian as ACROD is Rusyn or OCA/Rue Daru is Russian. No one speaking ethnic language, no services in traditional language, new calendar, and bishops no one minds about they are foreign. It will be just a meaningless fancy label. And that will be good.

I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.


I thought the condition was 3.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 10:08:34 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,456



« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2014, 11:19:07 AM »

A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

What doctrinal or dogmatic errors in other jurisdictions do you want to correect prior to uniting?

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

In 2 generations UOC-USA will be as Ukrainian as ACROD is Rusyn or OCA/Rue Daru is Russian. No one speaking ethnic language, no services in traditional language, new calendar

I remember when my old parish (OCA, but "Nash") was looking for a new priest.  For one of the candidates someone asked "does he speak the language?" "Yes," someone else replied, "he speaks English."

and bishops no one minds about they are foreign. It will be just a meaningless fancy label. And that will be good.

I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.


I thought the condition was 3.
That's a problem.  Alexandria had 3 for a long time, but when Pope Photios at the turn of the prior century re-established autocephaly in deed as well as word, he had to expand the Holy Synod, because every time a bishop deceased, we had to depend on the Phanar for a third consecrator.  It also takes 12 bishops IIRC to depose a bishop (though they can be forced to retire with less).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 11:21:47 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2014, 11:23:29 AM »

we had to depend on the Phanar for a third consecrator. 

It is a custom in the PAOC one consecrator being outside of it.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,237


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2014, 11:58:31 AM »

A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

What doctrinal or dogmatic errors in other jurisdictions do you want to correect prior to uniting?

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

In 2 generations UOC-USA will be as Ukrainian as ACROD is Rusyn or OCA/Rue Daru is Russian. No one speaking ethnic language, no services in traditional language, new calendar, and bishops no one minds about they are foreign. It will be just a meaningless fancy label. And that will be good.

I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.


I thought the condition was 3.

That is very apt observation. We ACROD nowadays are for the most part not obsessed with Europe and the past. We remember and observe bits and pieces - a carol/kolady, an ethnic food sale, but that's about it. And it's not a bad thing at all. The past becomes a mist over time rather than a living, breathing memory.

I try to respect the past,not forget it but not live in it.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2014, 12:14:37 PM »

I think that is a wonderful thing you are describing, Podki.  When we share our cultures, we not only bless people but guarantee their continuance into the future.

When we become 'exclusive' and try to seal ourselves off from the world, we are guaranteed to fail.


That is very apt observation. We ACROD nowadays are for the most part not obsessed with Europe and the past. We remember and observe bits and pieces - a carol/kolady, an ethnic food sale, but that's about it. And it's not a bad thing at all. The past becomes a mist over time rather than a living, breathing memory.

I try to respect the past,not forget it but not live in it.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,456



« Reply #116 on: January 11, 2014, 12:43:05 PM »

we had to depend on the Phanar for a third consecrator. 

It is a custom in the PAOC one consecrator being outside of it.
With the Phanar, the third consecrator didn't come without strings.  It got that Pope Photios forbade (backed up by the British) the representative of the Phanar from setting foot in Egypt.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,456



« Reply #117 on: January 11, 2014, 12:51:43 PM »

I think that is a wonderful thing you are describing, Podki.  When we share our cultures, we not only bless people but guarantee their continuance into the future.

When we become 'exclusive' and try to seal ourselves off from the world, we are guaranteed to fail.


That is very apt observation. We ACROD nowadays are for the most part not obsessed with Europe and the past. We remember and observe bits and pieces - a carol/kolady, an ethnic food sale, but that's about it. And it's not a bad thing at all. The past becomes a mist over time rather than a living, breathing memory.

I try to respect the past,not forget it but not live in it.
I can walk into any parish of the Vatican, and tell you if the founders were Italian, Polish, German, Spanish, French whatever, no matter how mixed the present congregation.  Even if overnight all services were switched to English, I can guarentee that I would still be able to pick out the Greek, Arab, Russian, Carpatho-Russian etc.  And there's nothing wrong with that.

I remember arguing with the priest who crismated me, who said with glee that he was shoving a stake through the heart of the Slavonic (both he and the congregation were Carpatho-Russians). "Why?" I asked, pointing out that I didn't have a drop of slavic blood that I knew of, and it didn't bother me that some hymns this week were in Slavonic when next week they would be in English (in the choir, I sang them).  At Pascha, I pointed out, many had tried to learn how to say "Christ is Risen!" in Arabic for me, and I had never been made to feel an outsider. "This is the heritage of the people who built the Church so it was here for me to come to.  I didn't build it for them."  I have no problem with a heritage as a basis, as long as it isn't a basis of exclusivity and ghettoization.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Noddy999
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Posts: 35


« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2014, 12:53:40 PM »

Please can you elaborate on your observation below in relation to the courts. What was the context of this matter?

'The foolishness of the Phanar to resort to the secular courts to enforce its canon 28 mythology in Great Britain and France-and loosing to Moscow, which now has legal authority backing its, Orthodox, interpretation of the matter of jurisdiction, sets those areas apart as well. This, in contrast to the wisdom the EP displayed vis-a-vis the Turkish Republic in court.'
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,456



« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2014, 01:08:58 PM »

Please can you elaborate on your observation below in relation to the courts. What was the context of this matter?

'The foolishness of the Phanar to resort to the secular courts to enforce its canon 28 mythology in Great Britain and France-and loosing to Moscow, which now has legal authority backing its, Orthodox, interpretation of the matter of jurisdiction, sets those areas apart as well. This, in contrast to the wisdom the EP displayed vis-a-vis the Turkish Republic in court.'
In brief (we have several threads on both I think) the agents of the Phanar tried to receive the Russian Diocese of Sorouzh (i.e. Great Britain) along with Bishop Basil Osborne.  Bishop Basil did not appeal to the Phanar's canon 28 mythology in his canonical battle (he ended up  retired by Moscow but still received by the Phanar but as an auxiliary to its exarchate in Paris), but he did argue it in the secular court (for possession of the Cathedral etc.).  The courts did't buy it any more than anyone outside the Greek Church at least and perhaps anyone outside the Phanar itself buys it.  There was a similar battle waged along similar lines over the Russian Cathedral in Nice, with a similar result.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,237


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #120 on: January 11, 2014, 08:41:15 PM »

I think that is a wonderful thing you are describing, Podki.  When we share our cultures, we not only bless people but guarantee their continuance into the future.

When we become 'exclusive' and try to seal ourselves off from the world, we are guaranteed to fail.


That is very apt observation. We ACROD nowadays are for the most part not obsessed with Europe and the past. We remember and observe bits and pieces - a carol/kolady, an ethnic food sale, but that's about it. And it's not a bad thing at all. The past becomes a mist over time rather than a living, breathing memory.

I try to respect the past,not forget it but not live in it.
I can walk into any parish of the Vatican, and tell you if the founders were Italian, Polish, German, Spanish, French whatever, no matter how mixed the present congregation.  Even if overnight all services were switched to English, I can guarentee that I would still be able to pick out the Greek, Arab, Russian, Carpatho-Russian etc.  And there's nothing wrong with that.

.

Mark this down. We agree!  Wink Anti-heritage zeal (based on a lack of understanding of the difference between respecting a heritage and worshipping it - a problem many ACROD and OCA Slavic cradle Orthodox clergy seem to have) is as misplaced as empty "worship" of the past.

(Actually, on stuff that really matters, I suspect we agree on many things! )
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,456



« Reply #121 on: January 11, 2014, 08:51:00 PM »

I think that is a wonderful thing you are describing, Podki.  When we share our cultures, we not only bless people but guarantee their continuance into the future.

When we become 'exclusive' and try to seal ourselves off from the world, we are guaranteed to fail.


That is very apt observation. We ACROD nowadays are for the most part not obsessed with Europe and the past. We remember and observe bits and pieces - a carol/kolady, an ethnic food sale, but that's about it. And it's not a bad thing at all. The past becomes a mist over time rather than a living, breathing memory.

I try to respect the past,not forget it but not live in it.
I can walk into any parish of the Vatican, and tell you if the founders were Italian, Polish, German, Spanish, French whatever, no matter how mixed the present congregation.  Even if overnight all services were switched to English, I can guarentee that I would still be able to pick out the Greek, Arab, Russian, Carpatho-Russian etc.  And there's nothing wrong with that.

.

Mark this down. We agree!  Wink Anti-heritage zeal (based on a lack of understanding of the difference between respecting a heritage and worshipping it - a problem many ACROD and OCA Slavic cradle Orthodox clergy seem to have) is as misplaced as empty "worship" of the past.

(Actually, on stuff that really matters, I suspect we agree on many things! )
I suspect you're right. Wink
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
kyril
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian (Orthodox)
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Canada - OCA
Posts: 239


« Reply #122 on: January 11, 2014, 09:05:55 PM »

Please!!!

"Worshipping" a heritage;
"Worship" of the past?

I  -  respect - the past (if it is worthy of respect)
but
I worship God!
Logged

kyril
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,237


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #123 on: January 11, 2014, 11:45:37 PM »

Please!!!

"Worshipping" a heritage;
"Worship" of the past?

I  -  respect - the past (if it is worthy of respect)
but
I worship God!


Perhaps I was not clear. I was criticizing those who fail to distinguish between simply respecting one's heritage and making the past the focus of one's spiritual life.
Logged
kyril
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian (Orthodox)
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Canada - OCA
Posts: 239


« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2014, 12:38:43 AM »

I'm very sorry, I ought to have seen that.
Please accept my apologies.
Logged

kyril
Yurysprudentsiya
Section Moderator
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA, although in my heart I will always remain a loving son of the UOC-USA
Posts: 1,472


God, the Great, the Only, Keep for Us Our Ukraine!


« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2014, 03:53:01 PM »

A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

What doctrinal or dogmatic errors in other jurisdictions do you want to correect prior to uniting?

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

In 2 generations UOC-USA will be as Ukrainian as ACROD is Rusyn or OCA/Rue Daru is Russian. No one speaking ethnic language, no services in traditional language, new calendar, and bishops no one minds about they are foreign. It will be just a meaningless fancy label. And that will be good.

I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.


I thought the condition was 3.

That is very apt observation. We ACROD nowadays are for the most part not obsessed with Europe and the past. We remember and observe bits and pieces - a carol/kolady, an ethnic food sale, but that's about it. And it's not a bad thing at all. The past becomes a mist over time rather than a living, breathing memory.

I try to respect the past,not forget it but not live in it.

I don't know.   Many of our new priests are immigrants from Westen Ukraine.  Mostly twentysomething guys who come here to study in South Bound Brook and then are given American parishes.  In fact we now have a surplus of priests with several of the newest priests attached to South Bound Brook until parishes can be found for them.  And half a dozen seminarians almost all Ukrainian who are learning English as well as theology.  Our youngest bishop is an immigrant from Ukraine.  And every parish I've been to is being healthily resupplied by young immigrants from Ukraine so there is a need for bilingual liturgy in most places.  As long as that trend continues I'm not so sure that you're right. 
Logged
Yurysprudentsiya
Section Moderator
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA, although in my heart I will always remain a loving son of the UOC-USA
Posts: 1,472


God, the Great, the Only, Keep for Us Our Ukraine!


« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2014, 03:57:01 PM »

A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

What doctrinal or dogmatic errors in other jurisdictions do you want to correect prior to uniting?

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

In 2 generations UOC-USA will be as Ukrainian as ACROD is Rusyn or OCA/Rue Daru is Russian. No one speaking ethnic language, no services in traditional language, new calendar, and bishops no one minds about they are foreign. It will be just a meaningless fancy label. And that will be good.

I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.


I thought the condition was 3.

That is very apt observation. We ACROD nowadays are for the most part not obsessed with Europe and the past. We remember and observe bits and pieces - a carol/kolady, an ethnic food sale, but that's about it. And it's not a bad thing at all. The past becomes a mist over time rather than a living, breathing memory.

I try to respect the past,not forget it but not live in it.

Do you still celebrate the Old New Year with a malanka?
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2014, 04:17:57 PM »

This is very true; "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..." He did not say "make disciples of all provinces, dioceses or regions, did He?
Why can't Canada, the USA, Mexico, Brazil, etc.. be considered nations in the Biblical sense?

I would say it is because they coincide with political borders just as much as the Roman set-up.  It's not like anyone's advocating for a "Cherokee Orthodox Church" and a "Navajo Orthodox Church" and an "Appalachian Orthodox Church", etc.  As I understand the biblical term for "nation" (and perhaps I'm wrong), the US has any number of nations within its "national" borders.  The other countries you named have the same issue.  Many large countries can say the same.  Unless we are comfortable with a million, small, autocephalous Churches, I think the argument in favour of "national Churches" needs to be made apart from a reference to the Great Commission. 

It would be more reasonable, IMO, to argue that the organisation of the world in the 21st century doesn't follow the same pattern as the Roman Empire, and so we should apply the latter example of accommodation to the world political structure to the world as we know it today.  If anything, it was that principle, and not the exact order of cities, that was enshrined in canonical legislation.  Apply it today and watch the sparks fly.  Wink         

I think a million might be an exaggeration, but would there really be anything so wrong with having hundreds of small autocephalous Churches? You could still have an order of precedence and it would solve many of the issues that we have now in the Ukraine, Macedonia, USA, etc.
I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.


Until you get a church which can't fill the open positions for bishops, cannot meet its own guidelines to depose bishops, and must do weird things like retire them and/or each bishop must carry dirt on the others.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,456



« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2014, 05:29:06 PM »

A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

What doctrinal or dogmatic errors in other jurisdictions do you want to correect prior to uniting?

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

In 2 generations UOC-USA will be as Ukrainian as ACROD is Rusyn or OCA/Rue Daru is Russian. No one speaking ethnic language, no services in traditional language, new calendar, and bishops no one minds about they are foreign. It will be just a meaningless fancy label. And that will be good.

I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.


I thought the condition was 3.

That is very apt observation. We ACROD nowadays are for the most part not obsessed with Europe and the past. We remember and observe bits and pieces - a carol/kolady, an ethnic food sale, but that's about it. And it's not a bad thing at all. The past becomes a mist over time rather than a living, breathing memory.

I try to respect the past,not forget it but not live in it.

I don't know.   Many of our new priests are immigrants from Westen Ukraine.  Mostly twentysomething guys who come here to study in South Bound Brook and then are given American parishes.  In fact we now have a surplus of priests with several of the newest priests attached to South Bound Brook until parishes can be found for them.  And half a dozen seminarians almost all Ukrainian who are learning English as well as theology.  Our youngest bishop is an immigrant from Ukraine.  And every parish I've been to is being healthily resupplied by young immigrants from Ukraine so there is a need for bilingual liturgy in most places.  As long as that trend continues I'm not so sure that you're right. 

Why are there no parishes for that surplus of priests?

If those parishes are being resupplied with immigrants, where are the parishioners going?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Yurysprudentsiya
Section Moderator
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA, although in my heart I will always remain a loving son of the UOC-USA
Posts: 1,472


God, the Great, the Only, Keep for Us Our Ukraine!


« Reply #129 on: January 12, 2014, 06:35:30 PM »

Quote
Why are there no parishes for that surplus of priests?

There have been some mission parishes set up but it is not an easy thing to do.  Who will pay the priests?  The UOC-USA has very limited funds to help.  We are not a wealthy jurisdiction by any stretch of the word; if one saw the accommodations of some of our priests and hierarchs, one can appreciate these sacrifices.  The mission parishes are of course the most non-Ukrainian in character, i.e., mixed Orthodox ethnicities and converts as well.  Several of them are successful, such as Four Evangelists in Bel Air, Maryland, and I believe one in Las Cruces, N.M., come to mind.  I know there was a former parish in Montana that was exploring the possibility of re-opening but they did not have enough support there to get anything started.

Quote
If those parishes are being resupplied with immigrants, where are the parishioners going?

To the cemetery, sadly, in many cases.  The first wave of Ukrainian immigration (ca. 1890-1920) is long deceased and only a fraction of their descendants, now in the fourth and fifth generations, still identify with Orthodoxy, because when the third generation (generally) came of age in the '50s and '60s, the church was still very much in an exclusive "cultural traditions" mode, and these grandchildren of the immigrants could not understand the language of the liturgy.  Many of them married non-Ukrainian or even non-Orthodox people and joined their spouse's church. 

The second wave of immigrants, who came after WWII and many of whom were displaced persons who had either been workers in Germany during the war or otherwise ended up in refugee camps when they were fleeing the resurrection of Soviet power in Ukraine after 1944 when the Nazis were pushed out, is far more patriotic than the first wave.  The first wave came here to work and make money and, in fact, probably two-thirds of them actually went back to Ukraine during the years between WWI and WWII with their money to buy a farm.  (I know one third-waver whose grandfather was a first-waver who went back like this.)  Those who stayed kept up the traditions but generally considered America their home.  The second wave generally were forced to leave Ukraine so it is they who really sought to preserve the culture here so that it would not be lost there, and used the parishes (as well as other Ukrainian organizations, such as Plast, the Ukrainian scouting organization in the Americas and other groups such as the Ukrainian National Association, Ukrainian-American newspapers such as "Svoboda" and the "Ukrainian Weekly," the Ukrainian camps for youth, etc.) to keep it going.  Because of the effort placed on Ukrainian-language and cultural education, the second generation of this wave was often as patriotic, if not more patriotic, than the first.  But the third generation may or may not be, depending on the family.

The new wave of immigration, since the break up of the USSR, is what is going on now.  These people are coming here for better economic opportunity, like the first wave.  But unlike the first wave, technology enables them to connect to Ukrainian culture so they can watch Ukrainian news, listen to Ukrainian music, travel back home on a regular basis, etc.  Ukraine is in terrible shape today, as I've posted on other threads here, because of the way that the country is run and the lack of a rule of law there, so immigrants are coming by the tens of thousands annually.  They are speakers of Ukrainian and Russian, but most lean toward the former.  They are generally not as nationalistic as the second-wavers, but they are, of course, native-born Ukrainians who are most comfortable with their native language and culture, especially in the cities.  And so we are training dozens of priests who are also immigrants of this sort, who have come here essentially out of high school to be trained for the priesthood in our churches.

It has only been in the past 20-30 years or so that many of our parishes have begun to integrate English language into the services.  Some are nearly all English, and some are nearly all Ukrainian.  Most are somewhere in between.  The all English parishes are best at receiving non-Ukrainian converts.  The mixed parishes are doing much better than they used to at retaining people who marry outside of the Ukrainian ethnicity and adding converts.  But the total membership has declined considerably from its peak perhaps 40 or 50 years ago, because of the phenomenon of what happened to the first-wavers' grandchildren.  The new immigration, which is exceedingly robust, has strengthened a lot of parishes.  But this too has to be balanced because these new immigrants are not as religious as their predecessors and may only show up for holidays.  One of the problems is educating them that the government does not pay the priests as it does back home, and that it is necessary for them to support their church with their time, talents, and gifts.  The mixed parishes are sometimes hard because you have new immigrants, patriotic second-wavers, legacy first-wavers, and American converts all together in one parish, and they have very different pastoral needs in some cases.  One needs a very wise priest to keep such a parish together and keep it growing.

At our Sobor, held each three years, addresses are made in both English and Ukrainian.  English has predominated but some of the speakers, particularly those who are immigrants, will rise to address the body in Ukrainian and their words will be translated into English for those who do not understand.  Probably 60-70% of the Divine Liturgies served at these Sobors and similar gatherings are mostly Ukrainian language.

I love my church and her people.  There are challenges but I can see firsthand the good work that is being done in some very difficult situations.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,237


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2014, 09:47:15 AM »

I'm very sorry, I ought to have seen that.
Please accept my apologies.

No problem!
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,237


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2014, 11:10:44 AM »

Quote
Why are there no parishes for that surplus of priests?

There have been some mission parishes set up but it is not an easy thing to do.  Who will pay the priests?  The UOC-USA has very limited funds to help.  We are not a wealthy jurisdiction by any stretch of the word; if one saw the accommodations of some of our priests and hierarchs, one can appreciate these sacrifices.  The mission parishes are of course the most non-Ukrainian in character, i.e., mixed Orthodox ethnicities and converts as well.  Several of them are successful, such as Four Evangelists in Bel Air, Maryland, and I believe one in Las Cruces, N.M., come to mind.  I know there was a former parish in Montana that was exploring the possibility of re-opening but they did not have enough support there to get anything started.

Quote
If those parishes are being resupplied with immigrants, where are the parishioners going?

To the cemetery, sadly, in many cases.  The first wave of Ukrainian immigration (ca. 1890-1920) is long deceased and only a fraction of their descendants, now in the fourth and fifth generations, still identify with Orthodoxy, because when the third generation (generally) came of age in the '50s and '60s, the church was still very much in an exclusive "cultural traditions" mode, and these grandchildren of the immigrants could not understand the language of the liturgy.  Many of them married non-Ukrainian or even non-Orthodox people and joined their spouse's church. 

The second wave of immigrants, who came after WWII and many of whom were displaced persons who had either been workers in Germany during the war or otherwise ended up in refugee camps when they were fleeing the resurrection of Soviet power in Ukraine after 1944 when the Nazis were pushed out, is far more patriotic than the first wave.  The first wave came here to work and make money and, in fact, probably two-thirds of them actually went back to Ukraine during the years between WWI and WWII with their money to buy a farm.  (I know one third-waver whose grandfather was a first-waver who went back like this.)  Those who stayed kept up the traditions but generally considered America their home.  The second wave generally were forced to leave Ukraine so it is they who really sought to preserve the culture here so that it would not be lost there, and used the parishes (as well as other Ukrainian organizations, such as Plast, the Ukrainian scouting organization in the Americas and other groups such as the Ukrainian National Association, Ukrainian-American newspapers such as "Svoboda" and the "Ukrainian Weekly," the Ukrainian camps for youth, etc.) to keep it going.  Because of the effort placed on Ukrainian-language and cultural education, the second generation of this wave was often as patriotic, if not more patriotic, than the first.  But the third generation may or may not be, depending on the family.

The new wave of immigration, since the break up of the USSR, is what is going on now.  These people are coming here for better economic opportunity, like the first wave.  But unlike the first wave, technology enables them to connect to Ukrainian culture so they can watch Ukrainian news, listen to Ukrainian music, travel back home on a regular basis, etc.  Ukraine is in terrible shape today, as I've posted on other threads here, because of the way that the country is run and the lack of a rule of law there, so immigrants are coming by the tens of thousands annually.  They are speakers of Ukrainian and Russian, but most lean toward the former.  They are generally not as nationalistic as the second-wavers, but they are, of course, native-born Ukrainians who are most comfortable with their native language and culture, especially in the cities.  And so we are training dozens of priests who are also immigrants of this sort, who have come here essentially out of high school to be trained for the priesthood in our churches.

It has only been in the past 20-30 years or so that many of our parishes have begun to integrate English language into the services.  Some are nearly all English, and some are nearly all Ukrainian.  Most are somewhere in between.  The all English parishes are best at receiving non-Ukrainian converts.  The mixed parishes are doing much better than they used to at retaining people who marry outside of the Ukrainian ethnicity and adding converts.  But the total membership has declined considerably from its peak perhaps 40 or 50 years ago, because of the phenomenon of what happened to the first-wavers' grandchildren.  The new immigration, which is exceedingly robust, has strengthened a lot of parishes.  But this too has to be balanced because these new immigrants are not as religious as their predecessors and may only show up for holidays.  One of the problems is educating them that the government does not pay the priests as it does back home, and that it is necessary for them to support their church with their time, talents, and gifts.  The mixed parishes are sometimes hard because you have new immigrants, patriotic second-wavers, legacy first-wavers, and American converts all together in one parish, and they have very different pastoral needs in some cases.  One needs a very wise priest to keep such a parish together and keep it growing.

At our Sobor, held each three years, addresses are made in both English and Ukrainian.  English has predominated but some of the speakers, particularly those who are immigrants, will rise to address the body in Ukrainian and their words will be translated into English for those who do not understand.  Probably 60-70% of the Divine Liturgies served at these Sobors and similar gatherings are mostly Ukrainian language.

I love my church and her people.  There are challenges but I can see firsthand the good work that is being done in some very difficult situations.

Yuri points out the fundamental difference between ACROD and UOCUSA - that is the impact of immigration. There has been no parallel emigration from Slovakia and immigrants from Transcarpathis more often self identify as Ukrainian or as Greek Catholics.

But, I would argue that UOC is in something of a crossroads. In our community, there is a large UOC parish of long standing with little to none of the recent immigration. The last three priests have been young immigrants with English issues and the parish is unhappy as they are 2nd and 3rd generation . I suspect in other stagnant growth areas similar issues are found. The BCC and UGCC folks have some of the same issues with immigrant clergy.
Logged
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,063



« Reply #132 on: January 13, 2014, 12:26:28 PM »

A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

What doctrinal or dogmatic errors in other jurisdictions do you want to correect prior to uniting?

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

In 2 generations UOC-USA will be as Ukrainian as ACROD is Rusyn or OCA/Rue Daru is Russian. No one speaking ethnic language, no services in traditional language, new calendar, and bishops no one minds about they are foreign. It will be just a meaningless fancy label. And that will be good.

I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.


I thought the condition was 3.

That is very apt observation. We ACROD nowadays are for the most part not obsessed with Europe and the past. We remember and observe bits and pieces - a carol/kolady, an ethnic food sale, but that's about it. And it's not a bad thing at all. The past becomes a mist over time rather than a living, breathing memory.

I try to respect the past,not forget it but not live in it.

Do you still celebrate the Old New Year with a malanka?
Our newest and youngest bishop is an immigrant from Ukraine who speaks impeccable English with the slightest accent. He is American as much as he is Ukrainian and he is a great man. He connects with the cradles, converts and immigrants and connects well with the youth. Eis polla eti despota!
Logged

Yurysprudentsiya
Section Moderator
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA, although in my heart I will always remain a loving son of the UOC-USA
Posts: 1,472


God, the Great, the Only, Keep for Us Our Ukraine!


« Reply #133 on: January 13, 2014, 12:32:10 PM »

A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

What doctrinal or dogmatic errors in other jurisdictions do you want to correect prior to uniting?

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

In 2 generations UOC-USA will be as Ukrainian as ACROD is Rusyn or OCA/Rue Daru is Russian. No one speaking ethnic language, no services in traditional language, new calendar, and bishops no one minds about they are foreign. It will be just a meaningless fancy label. And that will be good.

I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.


I thought the condition was 3.

That is very apt observation. We ACROD nowadays are for the most part not obsessed with Europe and the past. We remember and observe bits and pieces - a carol/kolady, an ethnic food sale, but that's about it. And it's not a bad thing at all. The past becomes a mist over time rather than a living, breathing memory.

I try to respect the past,not forget it but not live in it.

Do you still celebrate the Old New Year with a malanka?
Our newest and youngest bishop is an immigrant from Ukraine who speaks impeccable English with the slightest accent. He is American as much as he is Ukrainian and he is a great man. He connects with the cradles, converts and immigrants and connects well with the youth. Eis polla eti despota!

Everything you say is absolutely true.  I meant only to point out the effect of the new immigration in out church.  Like you, I believe that Bishop Daniel has been sent by God to us for "such a time is this."  He is truly a wise leader who can keep the disparate groups mentioned above together. 
Logged
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,063



« Reply #134 on: January 13, 2014, 12:33:42 PM »

A forced and false unity intended to rectify a canonical anomaly - not to cure or correct any doctrinal or dogmatic errors - will only result in more schism, fighting and division within our parishes and families.

What doctrinal or dogmatic errors in other jurisdictions do you want to correect prior to uniting?

Take our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as an example. If you think for a nanosecond that they would accept the suppression of time honored Ukrainian customs by a non Ukrainian Bishop, you must live in Colorado where you can legally smoke pot. Its not gonna happen. They (clergy, laity and bishops) have options). Same holds true for most of the faithful in most of the national groups mentioned.(The Greeks have options, heck every group does. ) It isn't about being subservient to foreign bishops, it is about NOT TRUSTING A STRUCTURE DESIGNED TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE.

In 2 generations UOC-USA will be as Ukrainian as ACROD is Rusyn or OCA/Rue Daru is Russian. No one speaking ethnic language, no services in traditional language, new calendar, and bishops no one minds about they are foreign. It will be just a meaningless fancy label. And that will be good.

I figure that anyone able to support a Holy Synod of at least 12 bishops and a primate can have an autocephalous Church.  Many autocephalous Churches do now with less.


I thought the condition was 3.
The ACROD bishop is a cradle Greek.Orthodox and he seems to be doing well. The whole Rusyn thing is kept more alive in the prostopinije music and little traditions than in being the sole essence of the diocese
Logged

Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.213 seconds with 72 queries.