OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 17, 2014, 04:05:46 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Autocephaly  (Read 2854 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
alexpetros
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 146


Go sábhála Dia Éire.


WWW
« on: January 07, 2014, 01:46:09 PM »

I never understood why the autocephaly of the OCA has never been recognized by all other autocephaleous churches.

This line of thinking seems pretty clear: if the mother church recognizes the autocephaly of a daughter church, then the daughter church is autocephaleous.

So, wherein lies the problem?
Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 7,202


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2014, 01:55:35 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 01:55:46 PM by hecma925 » Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2014, 03:50:23 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
How it was done: i.e. with the consent of the Mother Church, a procedure not followed with most of the others.

As for that "administrative nightmare," three guesses who was the main contributor to the horror.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 03:51:20 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 7,202


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2014, 03:59:45 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
How it was done: i.e. with the consent of the Mother Church, a procedure not followed with most of the others.

As for that "administrative nightmare," three guesses who was the main contributor to the horror.
Is there a prize if I guess correctly on the first try? Wink
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2014, 04:12:02 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
How it was done: i.e. with the consent of the Mother Church, a procedure not followed with most of the others.

As for that "administrative nightmare," three guesses who was the main contributor to the horror.
Is there a prize if I guess correctly on the first try? Wink
Orthodoxy Grin
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,261


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2014, 04:45:02 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
How it was done: i.e. with the consent of the Mother Church, a procedure not followed with most of the others.

As for that "administrative nightmare," three guesses who was the main contributor to the horror.
Is there a prize if I guess correctly on the first try? Wink
Orthodoxy Grin
Is that the prize, or the answer, or both? Cool
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,439



« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2014, 05:36:33 PM »

I never understood why the autocephaly of the OCA has never been recognized by all other autocephaleous churches.

This line of thinking seems pretty clear: if the mother church recognizes the autocephaly of a daughter church, then the daughter church is autocephaleous.

So, wherein lies the problem?
Orthodoxy in the Americas was spread by more than one group, and declaring the OCA autocephalous would realign all the churches in the hemisphere under it rather than under their current -- and varied -- episcopal organizations. Since not everyone was operating under the assumption that the Metropolia should take over the operations of the American church(s), not everyone got on board with Russia’s/the Metropolia’s well-intentioned if badly planned initiative.
Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2014, 05:45:54 PM »

I never understood why the autocephaly of the OCA has never been recognized by all other autocephaleous churches.

This line of thinking seems pretty clear: if the mother church recognizes the autocephaly of a daughter church, then the daughter church is autocephaleous.

So, wherein lies the problem?

The autocephaly of the OCA is pretty unprecedented to follow a well-trodden path. I don't think it is recognized by all the the autocephalous churches because they took exception to a unilateral grant of autocephaly, rather than something which comes about through universal consent.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2014, 05:48:08 PM »

Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,072



« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2014, 08:09:32 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca. If you only knew what went on and goes on in the workings of the oca you wouldn't be putting the ep down.  Look at your own house before you judge someone else's.
Logged

Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2014, 08:19:02 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca. If you only knew what went on and goes on in the workings of the oca you wouldn't be putting the ep down.  Look at your own house before you judge someone else's.

Well, that argument is rather dependent on the present circumstances, not official expressions purporting to state Orthodox ecclesiology. We don't really need an ecumenical patriarchate or the OCA to be Orthodox. We need bishops, but we don't need the structures we presently have.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2014, 08:21:21 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca. If you only knew what went on and goes on in the workings of the oca you wouldn't be putting the ep down.  Look at your own house before you judge someone else's.
How many in the Phanar's control does he run?  A dozen?

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2014, 08:23:54 PM »

Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,516


« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2014, 08:25:14 PM »

The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca.



sure

The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Actually it is. And it was a very bad move.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 08:26:15 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2014, 08:25:46 PM »

Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Based on what?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2014, 08:27:47 PM »

The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca.



sure

The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Actually it is. And it was a very bad move.

The EP hasn't had that church since 1453. Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,516


« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2014, 08:30:08 PM »

Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?

I am referring that "and you are lynching Negroes" is a very bad argument. OCA's financial problems are not an excuse for EP's papal leanings.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2014, 08:36:48 PM »

Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Based on what?
For one, the agreement between the Church of Greece and the EP in 1928 on the "New Lands."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2014, 08:38:09 PM »

The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Actually it is. And it was a very bad move.
It worked well enough.  A similar agreement could help unclog one big log jamb in the way of Ukraine's autocephaly.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2014, 08:38:55 PM »

Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?

I am referring that "and you are lynching Negroes" is a very bad argument. OCA's financial problems are not an excuse for EP's papal leanings.

Sorry, where did the Negro lynching come in? Is that like, "When did you stop beating your wife?" I'm confused.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2014, 08:39:29 PM »

Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Based on what?
For one, the agreement between the Church of Greece and the EP in 1928 on the "New Lands."

So it's a modern thing.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,717



« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2014, 08:41:00 PM »

Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?

I am referring that "and you are lynching Negroes" is a very bad argument. OCA's financial problems are not an excuse for EP's papal leanings.

Sorry, where did the Negro lynching come in? Is that like, "When did you stop beating your wife?" I'm confused.

I haven't heard that wife-beating phrase, but it sounds the same. Just "yeah, well [insert something the other person is doing to distract from the original issue]."
Logged
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,516


« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2014, 08:45:14 PM »

Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?

I am referring that "and you are lynching Negroes" is a very bad argument. OCA's financial problems are not an excuse for EP's papal leanings.

Sorry, where did the Negro lynching come in? Is that like, "When did you stop beating your wife?" I'm confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,908



« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2014, 08:47:25 PM »

Can't we all just get along?  Kiss
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2014, 08:52:47 PM »

Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?

I am referring that "and you are lynching Negroes" is a very bad argument. OCA's financial problems are not an excuse for EP's papal leanings.

Sorry, where did the Negro lynching come in? Is that like, "When did you stop beating your wife?" I'm confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

Oh, that's genius! Thanks.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2014, 08:54:40 PM »

Can't we all just get along?  Kiss

"I'll get along when that guy over there stops being a jerk."

That said, to "get along" when there are things such as rights and precedence, requires, I think, getting rid of the rights and precedence in the first place as things which work contrary to the substance of our faith. If a Christian is supposed to take the last place, how can he insist on the first?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,116



« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2014, 09:01:35 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca. If you only knew what went on and goes on in the workings of the oca you wouldn't be putting the ep down.  Look at your own house before you judge someone else's.
How many in the Phanar's control does he run?  A dozen?



I don't get it; this is a joke of some sort?

This is a picture of Metropolitan Spyridon, Formerly of Ephesos, who never accepted his election by the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Senior See of Ephesos, having retired from active ministry upon his resignation as Archbishop of America, of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, July, 1999.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2014, 11:47:28 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca. If you only knew what went on and goes on in the workings of the oca you wouldn't be putting the ep down.  Look at your own house before you judge someone else's.
How many in the Phanar's control does he run?  A dozen?



I don't get it; this is a joke of some sort?

This is a picture of Metropolitan Spyridon, Formerly of Ephesos, who never accepted his election by the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Senior See of Ephesos, having retired from active ministry upon his resignation as Archbishop of America, of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, July, 1999.
He didn't retire, he was retired, and at the insistence of his flock.  He was sent after the Phanar retaliated after Ligonier, elbowed Abp. Iakovos of blessed memory out, and after the tour by the "troika" as someone at Holy Cross referred to them Met. Spyridon was sent.  A prime example of how the EP "runs his churches a lot better."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
alexpetros
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 146


Go sábhála Dia Éire.


WWW
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2014, 11:52:52 PM »

Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,908



« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 12:01:31 AM »

Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?
Hang on, we haven't finished putting each other down.  Maybe we can answer your question after we have sufficiently denigrated all the bishops.
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,717



« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2014, 12:20:58 AM »

Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?

Perhaps if the child is unfit for independence - say, a toddler?

But for your real question about autocephaly, IDK.
Logged
alexpetros
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 146


Go sábhála Dia Éire.


WWW
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2014, 12:22:20 AM »

Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?
Hang on, we haven't finished putting each other down.  Maybe we can answer your question after we have sufficiently denigrated all the bishops.

Oh right, I forgot that that is how things are done.  Cool

Way to be a jerk about it Nephi. Seriously. Way to be a jerk about it.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 12:22:34 AM by alexpetros » Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2014, 12:26:25 AM »

Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?

Obviously, things are more complicated than that. Come on, this is Orthodoxy.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,717



« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2014, 12:27:52 AM »

Way to be a jerk about it Nephi. Seriously. Way to be a jerk about it.

What? I was joking about your child-parent question, not saying that OCA = toddler or anything like that. I added "But for your real question about autocephaly, IDK." to make that clear.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 12:28:01 AM by Nephi » Logged
alexpetros
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 146


Go sábhála Dia Éire.


WWW
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2014, 12:42:15 AM »

Way to be a jerk about it Nephi. Seriously. Way to be a jerk about it.

What? I was joking about your child-parent question, not saying that OCA = toddler or anything like that. I added "But for your real question about autocephaly, IDK." to make that clear.

Dude, I am sorry. I get more edgy here at night I have noticed. I should go to bed.
Logged
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,717



« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2014, 12:45:58 AM »

Way to be a jerk about it Nephi. Seriously. Way to be a jerk about it.

What? I was joking about your child-parent question, not saying that OCA = toddler or anything like that. I added "But for your real question about autocephaly, IDK." to make that clear.

Dude, I am sorry. I get more edgy here at night I have noticed. I should go to bed.

Not a problem. I should've made it a little more clear. Smiley
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2014, 02:37:23 AM »

Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?
Grandma is possessive.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,072



« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2014, 03:04:38 AM »

Wasn't the tomos signed by the patriarch on his death bed? 
Logged

mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,516


« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2014, 07:22:53 AM »

Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?
Grandma is possessive.

Or it's not their child.
Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,116



« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2014, 09:31:34 AM »

Wasn't the tomos signed by the patriarch on his death bed?  

He had been ailing for years, I doubt if Patriarch Alexis I actually personally signed the Tomos of Autocephaly.  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 09:41:37 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,116



« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2014, 10:06:23 AM »

Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Based on what?
For one, the agreement between the Church of Greece and the EP in 1928 on the "New Lands."

The "New Lands" agreement between the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Church of Greece is not analogous to the Russian Orthodox Church's maintenance of their "Patriarchal Representation" in the U.S. and Canada, but nice try.  

The Metropolis's of the "New Lands" are integrated into the administration of the Church of Greece, their Metropolitan-Bishops being members of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece, while their elections are ratified (approved) by the Ecumenical Patriarchate---though if I'm not mistaken, they commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch liturgically.

The Russian Orthodox Church maintains 32 parishes in the U.S. and 25 parishes in Canada, a total of 57 parishes which have no administrative ties whatsoever with the Orthodox Church in America, thereby maintaining essentially parallel dioceses on the territory of "The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America." Within the "Patriarchal Representation," the Patriarch of Moscow is commemorated, and it is administered in the U.S. by his auxiliary archbishop from his New York Cathedral, the cathedral the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia lost to the "Living Church" 9 decades ago.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 10:12:07 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,575


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2014, 10:59:21 AM »

Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?

For some reason, everyone is ignoring Agabus's reply, which seems to me to answer the question:

Orthodoxy in the Americas was spread by more than one group, and declaring the OCA autocephalous would realign all the churches in the hemisphere under it rather than under their current -- and varied -- episcopal organizations. Since not everyone was operating under the assumption that the Metropolia should take over the operations of the American church(s), not everyone got on board with Russia’s/the Metropolia’s well-intentioned if badly planned initiative.

Basically, if I understand him correctly, the multifarious EO jurisdictions operating in North America (or is it the Americas?) simply don't want to see their their churches absorbed into an autocephalous OCA, so - while not breaking communion - they've opted not to recognize it as the legitimate church of the realm.  Is this correct?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 11:03:49 AM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another.
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,516


« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2014, 11:46:37 AM »

The Russian Orthodox Church maintains 32 parishes in the U.S. and 25 parishes in Canada, a total of 57 parishes which have no administrative ties whatsoever with the Orthodox Church in America, thereby maintaining essentially parallel dioceses on the territory of "The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America." Within the "Patriarchal Representation," the Patriarch of Moscow is commemorated, and it is administered in the U.S. by his auxiliary archbishop from his New York Cathedral, the cathedral the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia lost to the "Living Church" 9 decades ago.

I thought they commemorate OCA metropolitan.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2014, 11:52:41 AM »

When the Tomos was being developed, there were a number of parishes which refused to enter into the OCA.  So, the Tomos specified that these parishes would remain under Moscow in a separate jurisdiction that would not be a metropolitanate.  Interestingly enough, a large number of them are actually ethnic Bulgarian parishes.

The Russian Orthodox Church maintains 32 parishes in the U.S. and 25 parishes in Canada, a total of 57 parishes which have no administrative ties whatsoever with the Orthodox Church in America, thereby maintaining essentially parallel dioceses on the territory of "The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America." Within the "Patriarchal Representation," the Patriarch of Moscow is commemorated, and it is administered in the U.S. by his auxiliary archbishop from his New York Cathedral, the cathedral the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia lost to the "Living Church" 9 decades ago.

I thought they commemorate OCA metropolitan.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,575


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2014, 11:57:09 AM »

Interestingly enough, a large number of them are actually ethnic Bulgarian parishes.


What was their reason for not wanting to enter into the OCA?
Logged

My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.193 seconds with 72 queries.