Author Topic: Autocephaly  (Read 3918 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline alexpetros

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Go sábhála Dia Éire.
    • Musings of a Wandering Thinker (Blog)
Autocephaly
« on: January 07, 2014, 01:46:09 PM »
I never understood why the autocephaly of the OCA has never been recognized by all other autocephaleous churches.

This line of thinking seems pretty clear: if the mother church recognizes the autocephaly of a daughter church, then the daughter church is autocephaleous.

So, wherein lies the problem?

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,956
  • Pray for me, a sinner.
    • Blog
  • Faith: Christ Clothes
  • Jurisdiction: Puerto Rican Orthodox Sobor
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2014, 01:55:35 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 01:55:46 PM by hecma925 »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

No longer pasting here.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,288
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2014, 03:50:23 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
How it was done: i.e. with the consent of the Mother Church, a procedure not followed with most of the others.

As for that "administrative nightmare," three guesses who was the main contributor to the horror.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 03:51:20 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,956
  • Pray for me, a sinner.
    • Blog
  • Faith: Christ Clothes
  • Jurisdiction: Puerto Rican Orthodox Sobor
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2014, 03:59:45 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
How it was done: i.e. with the consent of the Mother Church, a procedure not followed with most of the others.

As for that "administrative nightmare," three guesses who was the main contributor to the horror.
Is there a prize if I guess correctly on the first try? ;)
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

No longer pasting here.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,288
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2014, 04:12:02 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
How it was done: i.e. with the consent of the Mother Church, a procedure not followed with most of the others.

As for that "administrative nightmare," three guesses who was the main contributor to the horror.
Is there a prize if I guess correctly on the first try? ;)
Orthodoxy ;D
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,717
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2014, 04:45:02 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
How it was done: i.e. with the consent of the Mother Church, a procedure not followed with most of the others.

As for that "administrative nightmare," three guesses who was the main contributor to the horror.
Is there a prize if I guess correctly on the first try? ;)
Orthodoxy ;D
Is that the prize, or the answer, or both? 8)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,711
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2014, 05:36:33 PM »
I never understood why the autocephaly of the OCA has never been recognized by all other autocephaleous churches.

This line of thinking seems pretty clear: if the mother church recognizes the autocephaly of a daughter church, then the daughter church is autocephaleous.

So, wherein lies the problem?
Orthodoxy in the Americas was spread by more than one group, and declaring the OCA autocephalous would realign all the churches in the hemisphere under it rather than under their current -- and varied -- episcopal organizations. Since not everyone was operating under the assumption that the Metropolia should take over the operations of the American church(s), not everyone got on board with Russia’s/the Metropolia’s well-intentioned if badly planned initiative.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2014, 05:45:54 PM »
I never understood why the autocephaly of the OCA has never been recognized by all other autocephaleous churches.

This line of thinking seems pretty clear: if the mother church recognizes the autocephaly of a daughter church, then the daughter church is autocephaleous.

So, wherein lies the problem?

The autocephaly of the OCA is pretty unprecedented to follow a well-trodden path. I don't think it is recognized by all the the autocephalous churches because they took exception to a unilateral grant of autocephaly, rather than something which comes about through universal consent.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2014, 05:48:08 PM »
Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline username!

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,083
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2014, 08:09:32 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca. If you only knew what went on and goes on in the workings of the oca you wouldn't be putting the ep down.  Look at your own house before you judge someone else's.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2014, 08:19:02 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca. If you only knew what went on and goes on in the workings of the oca you wouldn't be putting the ep down.  Look at your own house before you judge someone else's.

Well, that argument is rather dependent on the present circumstances, not official expressions purporting to state Orthodox ecclesiology. We don't really need an ecumenical patriarchate or the OCA to be Orthodox. We need bishops, but we don't need the structures we presently have.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,288
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2014, 08:21:21 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca. If you only knew what went on and goes on in the workings of the oca you wouldn't be putting the ep down.  Look at your own house before you judge someone else's.
How many in the Phanar's control does he run?  A dozen?

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,288
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2014, 08:23:54 PM »
Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2014, 08:25:14 PM »
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca.



sure

The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Actually it is. And it was a very bad move.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 08:26:15 PM by Michał Kalina »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2014, 08:25:46 PM »
Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Based on what?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2014, 08:27:47 PM »
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca.



sure

The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Actually it is. And it was a very bad move.

The EP hasn't had that church since 1453. Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2014, 08:30:08 PM »
Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?

I am referring that "and you are lynching Negroes" is a very bad argument. OCA's financial problems are not an excuse for EP's papal leanings.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,288
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2014, 08:36:48 PM »
Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Based on what?
For one, the agreement between the Church of Greece and the EP in 1928 on the "New Lands."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,288
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2014, 08:38:09 PM »
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Actually it is. And it was a very bad move.
It worked well enough.  A similar agreement could help unclog one big log jamb in the way of Ukraine's autocephaly.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2014, 08:38:55 PM »
Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?

I am referring that "and you are lynching Negroes" is a very bad argument. OCA's financial problems are not an excuse for EP's papal leanings.

Sorry, where did the Negro lynching come in? Is that like, "When did you stop beating your wife?" I'm confused.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2014, 08:39:29 PM »
Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Based on what?
For one, the agreement between the Church of Greece and the EP in 1928 on the "New Lands."

So it's a modern thing.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Nephi

  • Monster Tamer
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,764
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2014, 08:41:00 PM »
Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?

I am referring that "and you are lynching Negroes" is a very bad argument. OCA's financial problems are not an excuse for EP's papal leanings.

Sorry, where did the Negro lynching come in? Is that like, "When did you stop beating your wife?" I'm confused.

I haven't heard that wife-beating phrase, but it sounds the same. Just "yeah, well [insert something the other person is doing to distract from the original issue]."

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2014, 08:45:14 PM »
Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?

I am referring that "and you are lynching Negroes" is a very bad argument. OCA's financial problems are not an excuse for EP's papal leanings.

Sorry, where did the Negro lynching come in? Is that like, "When did you stop beating your wife?" I'm confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline TheTrisagion

  • The cat is back and its better than ever!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,679
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2014, 08:47:25 PM »
Can't we all just get along?  :-*
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2014, 08:52:47 PM »
Are you referring to the enforcement of the Union of Florence before that, some argue, was the reason the church became a mosque in the first place?

I am referring that "and you are lynching Negroes" is a very bad argument. OCA's financial problems are not an excuse for EP's papal leanings.

Sorry, where did the Negro lynching come in? Is that like, "When did you stop beating your wife?" I'm confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

Oh, that's genius! Thanks.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2014, 08:54:40 PM »
Can't we all just get along?  :-*

"I'll get along when that guy over there stops being a jerk."

That said, to "get along" when there are things such as rights and precedence, requires, I think, getting rid of the rights and precedence in the first place as things which work contrary to the substance of our faith. If a Christian is supposed to take the last place, how can he insist on the first?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,153
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2014, 09:01:35 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca. If you only knew what went on and goes on in the workings of the oca you wouldn't be putting the ep down.  Look at your own house before you judge someone else's.
How many in the Phanar's control does he run?  A dozen?



I don't get it; this is a joke of some sort?

This is a picture of Metropolitan Spyridon, Formerly of Ephesos, who never accepted his election by the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Senior See of Ephesos, having retired from active ministry upon his resignation as Archbishop of America, of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, July, 1999.
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,288
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2014, 11:47:28 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate thinks it should have the final say.  "First among equals" and all that.  That and the administrative nightmare outside of traditionally Orthodox areas.

Even though OCA's autocephaly is questioned, because of how it was done, we are all still in communion.
The ep runs his churches a lot better than the oca. If you only knew what went on and goes on in the workings of the oca you wouldn't be putting the ep down.  Look at your own house before you judge someone else's.
How many in the Phanar's control does he run?  A dozen?



I don't get it; this is a joke of some sort?

This is a picture of Metropolitan Spyridon, Formerly of Ephesos, who never accepted his election by the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Senior See of Ephesos, having retired from active ministry upon his resignation as Archbishop of America, of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, July, 1999.
He didn't retire, he was retired, and at the insistence of his flock.  He was sent after the Phanar retaliated after Ligonier, elbowed Abp. Iakovos of blessed memory out, and after the tour by the "troika" as someone at Holy Cross referred to them Met. Spyridon was sent.  A prime example of how the EP "runs his churches a lot better."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline alexpetros

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Go sábhála Dia Éire.
    • Musings of a Wandering Thinker (Blog)
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2014, 11:52:52 PM »
Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?

Offline TheTrisagion

  • The cat is back and its better than ever!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,679
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 12:01:31 AM »
Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?
Hang on, we haven't finished putting each other down.  Maybe we can answer your question after we have sufficiently denigrated all the bishops.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Nephi

  • Monster Tamer
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,764
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2014, 12:20:58 AM »
Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?

Perhaps if the child is unfit for independence - say, a toddler?

But for your real question about autocephaly, IDK.

Offline alexpetros

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Go sábhála Dia Éire.
    • Musings of a Wandering Thinker (Blog)
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2014, 12:22:20 AM »
Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?
Hang on, we haven't finished putting each other down.  Maybe we can answer your question after we have sufficiently denigrated all the bishops.

Oh right, I forgot that that is how things are done.  8)

Way to be a jerk about it Nephi. Seriously. Way to be a jerk about it.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 12:22:34 AM by alexpetros »

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2014, 12:26:25 AM »
Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?

Obviously, things are more complicated than that. Come on, this is Orthodoxy.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Nephi

  • Monster Tamer
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,764
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2014, 12:27:52 AM »
Way to be a jerk about it Nephi. Seriously. Way to be a jerk about it.

What? I was joking about your child-parent question, not saying that OCA = toddler or anything like that. I added "But for your real question about autocephaly, IDK." to make that clear.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 12:28:01 AM by Nephi »

Offline alexpetros

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Go sábhála Dia Éire.
    • Musings of a Wandering Thinker (Blog)
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2014, 12:42:15 AM »
Way to be a jerk about it Nephi. Seriously. Way to be a jerk about it.

What? I was joking about your child-parent question, not saying that OCA = toddler or anything like that. I added "But for your real question about autocephaly, IDK." to make that clear.

Dude, I am sorry. I get more edgy here at night I have noticed. I should go to bed.

Offline Nephi

  • Monster Tamer
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,764
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2014, 12:45:58 AM »
Way to be a jerk about it Nephi. Seriously. Way to be a jerk about it.

What? I was joking about your child-parent question, not saying that OCA = toddler or anything like that. I added "But for your real question about autocephaly, IDK." to make that clear.

Dude, I am sorry. I get more edgy here at night I have noticed. I should go to bed.

Not a problem. I should've made it a little more clear. :)

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,288
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2014, 02:37:23 AM »
Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?
Grandma is possessive.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline username!

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,083
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2014, 03:04:38 AM »
Wasn't the tomos signed by the patriarch on his death bed? 

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2014, 07:22:53 AM »
Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?
Grandma is possessive.

Or it's not their child.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,153
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2014, 09:31:34 AM »
Wasn't the tomos signed by the patriarch on his death bed?  

He had been ailing for years, I doubt if Patriarch Alexis I actually personally signed the Tomos of Autocephaly.  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 09:41:37 AM by Basil 320 »
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,153
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2014, 10:06:23 AM »
Also the OCA's autocephaly is not even truly regarded as autocephaly like unto that of other churches by the Moscow Patriarchate because the MP still has parishes in America. Unless it is an autocephaly which does away with canonical territory--something becoming more and more fashionable.
The MP retaining parishes is neither unique nor unprecedented.

Based on what?
For one, the agreement between the Church of Greece and the EP in 1928 on the "New Lands."

The "New Lands" agreement between the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Church of Greece is not analogous to the Russian Orthodox Church's maintenance of their "Patriarchal Representation" in the U.S. and Canada, but nice try.  

The Metropolis's of the "New Lands" are integrated into the administration of the Church of Greece, their Metropolitan-Bishops being members of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece, while their elections are ratified (approved) by the Ecumenical Patriarchate---though if I'm not mistaken, they commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch liturgically.

The Russian Orthodox Church maintains 32 parishes in the U.S. and 25 parishes in Canada, a total of 57 parishes which have no administrative ties whatsoever with the Orthodox Church in America, thereby maintaining essentially parallel dioceses on the territory of "The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America." Within the "Patriarchal Representation," the Patriarch of Moscow is commemorated, and it is administered in the U.S. by his auxiliary archbishop from his New York Cathedral, the cathedral the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia lost to the "Living Church" 9 decades ago.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 10:12:07 AM by Basil 320 »
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,682
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
    • Return to Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2014, 10:59:21 AM »
Yeah, after all this, my question still is left unanswered:

If the mother church declares her daughter church to be autocephaleous, then why is that not enough to make her autocephaleous?

If this question is too hard to answer:
If a parent says that a child is independent, why question the child's independence?

For some reason, everyone is ignoring Agabus's reply, which seems to me to answer the question:

Orthodoxy in the Americas was spread by more than one group, and declaring the OCA autocephalous would realign all the churches in the hemisphere under it rather than under their current -- and varied -- episcopal organizations. Since not everyone was operating under the assumption that the Metropolia should take over the operations of the American church(s), not everyone got on board with Russia’s/the Metropolia’s well-intentioned if badly planned initiative.

Basically, if I understand him correctly, the multifarious EO jurisdictions operating in North America (or is it the Americas?) simply don't want to see their their churches absorbed into an autocephalous OCA, so - while not breaking communion - they've opted not to recognize it as the legitimate church of the realm.  Is this correct?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 11:03:49 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2014, 11:46:37 AM »
The Russian Orthodox Church maintains 32 parishes in the U.S. and 25 parishes in Canada, a total of 57 parishes which have no administrative ties whatsoever with the Orthodox Church in America, thereby maintaining essentially parallel dioceses on the territory of "The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America." Within the "Patriarchal Representation," the Patriarch of Moscow is commemorated, and it is administered in the U.S. by his auxiliary archbishop from his New York Cathedral, the cathedral the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia lost to the "Living Church" 9 decades ago.

I thought they commemorate OCA metropolitan.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline FatherGiryus

  • A terrible human being
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,547
  • Faith: Genuine New Calendar Orthodoxy
  • Jurisdiction: Self-Ruled Antiochianistic Eparchy
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2014, 11:52:41 AM »
When the Tomos was being developed, there were a number of parishes which refused to enter into the OCA.  So, the Tomos specified that these parishes would remain under Moscow in a separate jurisdiction that would not be a metropolitanate.  Interestingly enough, a large number of them are actually ethnic Bulgarian parishes.

The Russian Orthodox Church maintains 32 parishes in the U.S. and 25 parishes in Canada, a total of 57 parishes which have no administrative ties whatsoever with the Orthodox Church in America, thereby maintaining essentially parallel dioceses on the territory of "The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America." Within the "Patriarchal Representation," the Patriarch of Moscow is commemorated, and it is administered in the U.S. by his auxiliary archbishop from his New York Cathedral, the cathedral the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia lost to the "Living Church" 9 decades ago.

I thought they commemorate OCA metropolitan.
http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,682
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
    • Return to Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Re: Autocephaly
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2014, 11:57:09 AM »
Interestingly enough, a large number of them are actually ethnic Bulgarian parishes.


What was their reason for not wanting to enter into the OCA?
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/