Author Topic: Relationalships  (Read 3107 times)

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Offline vamrat

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #135 on: January 10, 2014, 04:37:36 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

I don't think that damnation at 19 is any more.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #136 on: January 10, 2014, 04:37:54 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Yeah, I got that, Alex.  I just happen to disagree.  Seems we have different ideas about what's "healthy"....
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #137 on: January 10, 2014, 04:45:25 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.
Eh?  That is just silly. You don't have to wait for a certain age before taking your faith seriously.
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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #138 on: January 10, 2014, 04:46:19 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #139 on: January 10, 2014, 04:53:35 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Yeah...you gotta wonder where a statement like his is coming from....
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #140 on: January 10, 2014, 04:54:55 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Yeah...you gotta wonder where a statement like his is coming from....

Not sure I wanna touch that bit... ;)
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #141 on: January 10, 2014, 04:59:17 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Yeah...you gotta wonder where a statement like his is coming from....

Not sure I wanna touch that bit... ;)

You're probably right.  Speculation about those kinds of things can get pretty, uh....what?....messy. ;)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline Shiny

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #142 on: January 10, 2014, 05:13:35 PM »
?

I wasn't Odox at 18. Nor even involved with religion.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline J Michael

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #143 on: January 10, 2014, 05:19:06 PM »
?

I wasn't Odox at 18. Nor even involved with religion.

So, is that the basis for your bad advice to JamesR??  That you weren't involved with religion, much less Orthodoxy, at 18? 
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline JamesR

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #144 on: January 10, 2014, 05:22:30 PM »
I wish I could just take a break from this Orthodoxy and live with no rules for at least a couple days; that'd be nice. It's unfair that the cradles can break all the rules and sin, but we converts are expected to be perfect.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #145 on: January 10, 2014, 05:26:05 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Who? The cradle kind who only go to Church once a year?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #146 on: January 10, 2014, 05:26:58 PM »
I wish I could just take a break from this Orthodoxy and live with no rules for at least a couple days; that'd be nice. It's unfair that the cradles can break all the rules and sin, but we converts are expected to be perfect.

Why can't you take a break?  Plenty of Orthodox, cradle and convert, do so, living with no rules for longer than one or two days (whether or not it's "nice").  Does your priest follow you around with a bamboo cane and beat you when you start breaking rules?  
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #147 on: January 10, 2014, 05:28:44 PM »
I wish I could just take a break from this Orthodoxy and live with no rules for at least a couple days; that'd be nice. It's unfair that the cradles can break all the rules and sin, but we converts are expected to be perfect.

"Who" expects you to be perfect?  "What" makes you think that cradles break all the rules and sin?  "Where" is this coming from, besides the hormones of an 18 year old?

"Why" haven't you discussed these concerns with your Priest?

"How" are you going to rectify this situation?

Offline Shiny

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #148 on: January 10, 2014, 05:28:49 PM »
?

I wasn't Odox at 18. Nor even involved with religion.

So, is that the basis for your bad advice to JamesR??  That you weren't involved with religion, much less Orthodoxy, at 18? 
Lol I may have dodged a few bullets at 18 if I was Orthodox.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #149 on: January 10, 2014, 05:29:16 PM »
I wish I could just take a break from this Orthodoxy and live with no rules for at least a couple days; that'd be nice. It's unfair that the cradles can break all the rules and sin, but we converts are expected to be perfect.

Why can't you take a break?  Plenty of Orthodox, cradle and convert, do so, living with no rules for longer than one or two days (whether or not it's "nice").  Does your priest follow you around with a bamboo cane and beat you when you start breaking rules?  

Well he emails me whenever I miss Church
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #150 on: January 10, 2014, 05:30:48 PM »
But seriously.

Here's what doesn't make sense to me. JamesR unfourtantley found Orthodoxy at age 16 or 15...and some of us have had tons of fun during our late teens and twenties but we found religion later on.

But now its all honky dory cause we can just repent...well actually get baptized before that.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline JamesR

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #151 on: January 10, 2014, 05:31:05 PM »
Shiny has got a point here. Why should anyone be in a rush to convert to Orthodoxy?

If the parable of the Prodigal Son tells us anything, it's that people who work hard their entire life to do what's right are not going to get crap in the end--except maybe some vain existential promise or something--whereas the obstinate who return at the very last minute will get a huge banquet with everything.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #152 on: January 10, 2014, 05:31:18 PM »
I wish I could just take a break from this Orthodoxy and live with no rules for at least a couple days; that'd be nice. It's unfair that the cradles can break all the rules and sin, but we converts are expected to be perfect.

You can.  The only one stopping you is you.  You know...that old "free will" and "choice" and "consequences" conundrum.  Did you know it is just as much an affront to God, if not more so, to consciously, purposely sin saying to yourself, "hey...it's okay, cuz I can go to confession and get absolved and not jeopardize my salvation" as it is to just sin in the "normal" course of events??  What if, God forbid, you died before you had a chance to contact your priest to say, "Break's over.  I'm ready now..."?

What makes you think it's "okay" for cradles to break rules and sin any more than converts?  Because, you know...it ain't.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 05:34:31 PM by J Michael »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #153 on: January 10, 2014, 05:31:50 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Who? The cradle kind who only go to Church once a year?

You don't know why those "cradle kind" go to Church once a year.

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #154 on: January 10, 2014, 05:35:45 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Who? The cradle kind who only go to Church once a year?

No. The cradle kind who go to church at least once a week. My classes were full of that kind of teenagers. I don't call it Sunday school because it was actually held on Saturday morning after liturgy, but the fact remains that we turned up, week after week, and not five minutes in advance.

Your experiences are far from universal.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #155 on: January 10, 2014, 05:35:56 PM »
Shiny has got a point here. Why should anyone be in a rush to convert to Orthodoxy?

If the parable of the Prodigal Son tells us anything, it's that people who work hard their entire life to do what's right are not going to get crap in the end--except maybe some vain existential promise or something--whereas the obstinate who return at the very last minute will get a huge banquet with everything.
Exactly.

It seems wholly unfair.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #156 on: January 10, 2014, 05:36:41 PM »
Well he emails me whenever I miss Church

OK.  So when you miss church, he writes about how you were wrong not to show up, how you committed a sin, that God's going to punish you because his patience for converts is limited (unlike his patience with converts), that when he sees you next he's going to slap you and prohibit you from communing for a few weeks, etc., etc., right?  

Or could he just be concerned about you?  Perhaps he emails others too, or calls them, or otherwise reaches out to them, whether or not you know about it?  
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #157 on: January 10, 2014, 05:37:13 PM »
Shiny has got a point here. Why should anyone be in a rush to convert to Orthodoxy?

If the parable of the Prodigal Son tells us anything, it's that people who work hard their entire life to do what's right are not going to get crap in the end--except maybe some vain existential promise or something--whereas the obstinate who return at the very last minute will get a huge banquet with everything.
Exactly.

It seems wholly unfair.

Yeah...life's unfair.  Get over it.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #158 on: January 10, 2014, 05:37:56 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Who? The cradle kind who only go to Church once a year?

No. The cradle kind who go to church at least once a week. My classes were full of that kind of teenagers.

Okay, rephrase it this way: how many of them were there because they had an Orthodox family or grandma forcing them to?

I got no one to tell me to go to Church or fast with me or to remind me to pray the Hours. It's all on me. Take away those teenagers' Orthodox family and put them in my shoes and I guarantee you that you'll lose 90% of them.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #159 on: January 10, 2014, 05:38:59 PM »
Shiny has got a point here. Why should anyone be in a rush to convert to Orthodoxy?

If the parable of the Prodigal Son tells us anything, it's that people who work hard their entire life to do what's right are not going to get crap in the end--except maybe some vain existential promise or something--whereas the obstinate who return at the very last minute will get a huge banquet with everything.
Exactly.

It seems wholly unfair.

Yeah...life's unfair.  Get over it.
Not for everyone though. Thats the point.

Why do certain people suffer more than others?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline Shiny

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #160 on: January 10, 2014, 05:39:30 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Who? The cradle kind who only go to Church once a year?

No. The cradle kind who go to church at least once a week. My classes were full of that kind of teenagers.

Okay, rephrase it this way: how many of them were there because they had an Orthodox family or grandma forcing them to?

I got no one to tell me to go to Church or fast with me or to remind me to pray the Hours. It's all on me. Take away those teenagers' Orthodox family and put them in my shoes and I guarantee you that you'll lose 90% of them.
Or out of cultural/ethnic identification.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #161 on: January 10, 2014, 05:39:57 PM »
Shiny has got a point here. Why should anyone be in a rush to convert to Orthodoxy?

If the parable of the Prodigal Son tells us anything, it's that people who work hard their entire life to do what's right are not going to get crap in the end--except maybe some vain existential promise or something--whereas the obstinate who return at the very last minute will get a huge banquet with everything.
Exactly.

It seems wholly unfair.

If you really believe that, why talk so much about how unfair it is and instead just give it up?  After all, it's Jesus' own story, with Jesus' own interpretation.  If it's unfair, then why waste time on Jesus?  
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline JamesR

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #162 on: January 10, 2014, 05:44:24 PM »
Basically James if you decide to get married, make sure you have a pre-nup.

Definitely doing that.

It's not fair how a woman can marry a man, make him give her two or three children, then gain weight, complain, spend all his money, refuse to cook anymore, and then divorce him and take half his stuff.

I'm only giving her what she gives me. I'll give a woman my all only if she gives me her all.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #163 on: January 10, 2014, 05:45:09 PM »
lol, James with a pre-nup.

Does James have a great amount of wealth that needs to be protected?  My impression was the girl was coming in with all the money.  If that's the case, you don't want a pre-nup. Get that split 50/50.  :D
James has a heart of gold. So absolutely that needs to be on there.

That really means very much; thank you Shiny.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #164 on: January 10, 2014, 05:46:19 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Who? The cradle kind who only go to Church once a year?

No. The cradle kind who go to church at least once a week. My classes were full of that kind of teenagers.

Okay, rephrase it this way: how many of them were there because they had an Orthodox family or grandma forcing them to?

I got no one to tell me to go to Church or fast with me or to remind me to pray the Hours. It's all on me. Take away those teenagers' Orthodox family and put them in my shoes and I guarantee you that you'll lose 90% of them.

Do the best you can and don't worry about what other people are doing (or not doing). 

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2014, 05:47:38 PM »
It would be tragic if he got married to his first real girlfriend outside of school

Yeah that's something I have to be careful of. I've never been in a serious relationship so I don't want to take it too fast and somehow screw myself over the first time she says "I love you" and it toys with my bizarre, JamesR heart.

Quote
...Some will want to harm him.

And have. I need to learn to be meaner.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2014, 05:50:08 PM »
Shiny has got a point here. Why should anyone be in a rush to convert to Orthodoxy?

If the parable of the Prodigal Son tells us anything, it's that people who work hard their entire life to do what's right are not going to get crap in the end--except maybe some vain existential promise or something--whereas the obstinate who return at the very last minute will get a huge banquet with everything.
Exactly.

It seems wholly unfair.

If you really believe that, why talk so much about how unfair it is and instead just give it up?  After all, it's Jesus' own story, with Jesus' own interpretation.  If it's unfair, then why waste time on Jesus?  

"Jesus is my hero but his rules are unfair."

I've heard that one too many times.
Quote from: The Life of Ivan Neronov
[Ecclesiastics] conspired against him because they hated his teaching for its zealous emphasis on proper Christian conduct: with great courage he denounced all whom he saw behaving in an ungodly fashion... [As such] he was deprived of his priestly rank, bound in iron chains, and broken down in jails.

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #167 on: January 10, 2014, 05:50:49 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Who? The cradle kind who only go to Church once a year?

No. The cradle kind who go to church at least once a week. My classes were full of that kind of teenagers.

Okay, rephrase it this way: how many of them were there because they had an Orthodox family or grandma forcing them to?

I got no one to tell me to go to Church or fast with me or to remind me to pray the Hours. It's all on me. Take away those teenagers' Orthodox family and put them in my shoes and I guarantee you that you'll lose 90% of them.

Finance 101: Don't give guarantees on things you don't have the foggiest idea about.

And please, stop embarrassing yourself with spouting stupidity. What non-Orthodox kid would attend Orthodox Sunday school? We all came from Orthodox families. You know, the cradles who attended church once a year. :P
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #168 on: January 10, 2014, 05:52:54 PM »
What non-Orthodox kid would attend Orthodox Sunday school?

I did as a catechumen

Quote
We all came from Orthodox families. You know, the cradles who attended church once a year. :P

Sounds like you fellows had it pretty easy then.

But fellows like me and Shiny had to work to have what you have and we're still regarded as second-class by the Greek elitists and have to carry a heavier burden.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #169 on: January 10, 2014, 05:53:18 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Who? The cradle kind who only go to Church once a year?

No. The cradle kind who go to church at least once a week. My classes were full of that kind of teenagers.

Okay, rephrase it this way: how many of them were there because they had an Orthodox family or grandma forcing them to?

I got no one to tell me to go to Church or fast with me or to remind me to pray the Hours. It's all on me. Take away those teenagers' Orthodox family and put them in my shoes and I guarantee you that you'll lose 90% of them.
Has your priest advised to you do all that, or are you undertaking it all because you feel that you should? I'm not saying you should become an atheist or go crazy and sleep with a bunch of girls, but perhaps rest from some of your efforts could be beneficial.  I doubt being resentful while praying the hours or fasting provides much spiritual benefit. If anything, it just encourages legalism.  But then, I'm not a spiritual guide, so it would probably be best to discuss with your priest.
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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #170 on: January 10, 2014, 05:54:30 PM »
But fellows like me and Shiny had to work to have what you have and we're still regarded as second-class by the Greek elitists and have to carry a heavier burden.

What exactly do we have that you don't?
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #171 on: January 10, 2014, 05:55:08 PM »
But seriously,

This thing about having fun at 18 and in your early 20s and college life and all, it's VERY foreign to me.

Where I come from, everyone was having kids and "growing up" (or at least trying to) at the age of 16-18. No one goes to college and there is no such thing as "having fun" and "being a kid" in your late teens/early twenties.

My mom herself had me at 15.

...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #172 on: January 10, 2014, 05:58:20 PM »
But fellows like me and Shiny had to work to have what you have and we're still regarded as second-class by the Greek elitists and have to carry a heavier burden.

What exactly do we have that you don't?

How about an Orthodox family that helps you practice your faith and encourages you? Now compare this to me and Shiny where we come from non-Orthodox families who are often hostile, or at least virtually uninvolved, in our religious lives and thus we are left to do it all on our own. And oftentimes, doing it on our own also means doing it in a hostile environment.

But we're still treated like crap. The EP hates our guts.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #173 on: January 10, 2014, 05:59:48 PM »
How about an Orthodox family that helps you practice your faith and encourages you?

The same one that breaks all the rules?
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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2014, 06:00:10 PM »
If you really believe that, why talk so much about how unfair it is and instead just give it up?

Because then I'd be like the cradles.
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In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #175 on: January 10, 2014, 06:00:56 PM »
How about an Orthodox family that helps you practice your faith and encourages you?

The same one that breaks all the rules?

Yep; the one that, in the very least, isn't hostile toward your faith and is at least culturally Orthodox. Try living in the home of American Evangelicals and you'll get it.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #176 on: January 10, 2014, 06:03:59 PM »
How about an Orthodox family that helps you practice your faith and encourages you?

The same one that breaks all the rules?

Or in the other case, many of you have a really strong Orthodox family and you're able to just ride on their prestige and not have to do anything on your own.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #177 on: January 10, 2014, 06:05:02 PM »
If you really believe that, why talk so much about how unfair it is and instead just give it up?

Because then I'd be like the cradles.

But I thought you wanted to live like them.  Is it now beneath you to live like them?  
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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #178 on: January 10, 2014, 06:06:02 PM »
Jeff, I don't think being Orthodox at 18 is healthy.

Millions have done it and turned out just fine.

Who? The cradle kind who only go to Church once a year?

No. The cradle kind who go to church at least once a week. My classes were full of that kind of teenagers.

Okay, rephrase it this way: how many of them were there because they had an Orthodox family or grandma forcing them to?

I got no one to tell me to go to Church or fast with me or to remind me to pray the Hours. It's all on me. Take away those teenagers' Orthodox family and put them in my shoes and I guarantee you that you'll lose 90% of them.

Finance 101: Don't give guarantees on things you don't have the foggiest idea about.

And please, stop embarrassing yourself with spouting stupidity. What non-Orthodox kid would attend Orthodox Sunday school? We all came from Orthodox families. You know, the cradles who attended church once a year. :P
What would you know about finance?
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Re: Relationalships
« Reply #179 on: January 10, 2014, 06:06:28 PM »
But fellows like me and Shiny had to work to have what you have and we're still regarded as second-class by the Greek elitists and have to carry a heavier burden.

What exactly do we have that you don't?

How about an Orthodox family that helps you practice your faith and encourages you? Now compare this to me and Shiny where we come from non-Orthodox families who are often hostile, or at least virtually uninvolved, in our religious lives and thus we are left to do it all on our own. And oftentimes, doing it on our own also means doing it in a hostile environment.

But we're still treated like crap. The EP hates our guts.

Last I checked, you're not under the EP, so...

Look, James, this is not a more-downtrodden-than-thou contest. Straighten up and fly right, or give up and live without rules. Just quit whining and sniveling like a toddler who isn't getting his way.
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

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