Author Topic: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?  (Read 24756 times)

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Offline Papist

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #90 on: June 17, 2010, 01:23:19 PM »
No, it does not. a condition of infallibility is that this bull must clearly be addressed to the entire universal Church. It clearly does not. In addition, it must explicitly state that it wishes to invoke an extraordinary usage of the magesterium.
It is not enough to say that it is universal in character. It must unequivocably state as such. Your quote above meets ONE of the conditions. ALL of them must be met.

But that was NEVER the point of my original  observation.

Why are you attempting to de-rail this, when I clearly stated that the problem is that all groups tend to do this. Why the need to go on attack mode of Catholicism here?



No derailing, Danman.  Your Church has a stack of official statements from centuries past, and some of them infallible, that those who are not members of the Roman Catholic Church (i.e., heterodox)and not in submission to the Supreme Pontiff cannot be saved.  These statements have immensely more weight than the scribblings you read on internet forums.

I think he was trying to move past this to how Christians approach each other currently.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #91 on: June 17, 2010, 04:45:52 PM »
No need for split...

I've seen a rather active Roman Catholic presence on this thread the past several hours, but it appears for the most part to be merely to correct Orthodox misunderstandings, an action consistent with what the moderator team wishes to support as part of the mission of the Faith Issues board.  Please be careful to not go any farther than that, lest I have to move posts to Orthodox-Catholic Discussion.  Thank you.

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« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 05:02:11 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #92 on: June 17, 2010, 05:07:41 PM »
I must admit, this is a new one, that adds to the list.

For about 10 years, I have been watching these kinds of discussions about who can be saved that is outside the church and holds to false doctrines. In each group, I have seen statements that someone of another group cannot be saved.

I've seen:

Eastern Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
.

I want to challenge that very very strongly and you ought to try and substantiate it or withdraw.
Fr. Ambrose, I agree with danman916 and others who have stated that you totally missed the point of what he said, focused solely on one line of his post, and blew that one line totally out of context and proportion.

No derailing, Danman.
In light of what I said above, it seems very clear to me that you ARE derailing this thread with an off-topic rant and that you would do well to back up and read danman916's posts again.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 05:07:58 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #93 on: June 17, 2010, 05:12:04 PM »
There has been very little discussion or mention of the OP in this thread.
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Offline Father Peter

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #94 on: June 17, 2010, 05:28:38 PM »
Do the Fathers put as much stress on this question as seems to be common nowadays? Is the present interest related to the number of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy?

Since we surely hesitate to insist on our own salvation, it seems rather odd that we should show such interest in whether or not God will choose to save others.

Will the heterodox be saved? I hope so. But I also hope my own congregation will be saved, and that even I will be saved in the end. It just doesn't seem an Orthodox question. Even quotes such as 'outside the Church there is no salvation' seem to me to be speaking of salvation in a different manner than the rather Protestant manner in which we are asked to judge whether or not this group or that are saved.

If salvation means healing, health and wholeness then we might all agree that there is no wholeness outside of the Church. But this does seem different from the rather binary approach that is being asked in this thread.

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #95 on: June 17, 2010, 05:30:49 PM »
Exactly, Father.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #96 on: June 17, 2010, 08:59:16 PM »

Again, you didn't hear what I said. I was addressing the pastoral issue we face today of all groups stating THEY are the Church,

The Orthodox will continue to say THEY are the Church until the return of Christ.  Not going to back away from that.

Quote
the others are not, .

The Orthodox will continue to state they are the Church until the Day of Judgement.  They will go on saying it plainly so that the world knows where truth is to be found.

Quote
and salvation is only found in THEIR Church alone..

The Orthodox do NOT say that.   All men may be saved.  Outside the Church salvation is possible.

None of that is complicated in the least.

We have things such as....

Saint Paul has already given the apostolic teaching quite cogently and told us how it occurs that the non-Christians may be saved:

Romans 2 - the salvation of non-believers:

  "...for when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
  by nature do the things in the law, these, although
  not having the law, are a law to themselves, who
  show the work of the law written in their hearts,
  their conscience also bearing witness, and between
  themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing
  them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men
  by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
 
~ Romans 2:14-16


... and there are the words of the holy Metropolitan Philaret who was the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad when I was a young man and a very conservative theologian.  He is here speaking of heterodox Christians but I would think he would say the same about Jews and others:


  It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman
Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox
confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who
knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are
living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do
the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not
been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The
Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who
enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is
leading them also towards salvation In His own way."


N.B:  "The Lord...undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation
In His own way."

....and we have the words of St. Theophan the Recluse to guide us into a correct Orthodox understanding:

  "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them?
They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being.
He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such
concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however:
should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray
Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:18:07 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #97 on: June 17, 2010, 09:07:12 PM »
YOU DIDN'T HEAR A WORD I SAID.


I did.  You appealed to what seems to be ill-founded opinions of anonymous people on some forums, possibly disturbed people.

I gave you official statements of the Roman Catholic Church.

I think you must be aware that we can quote Pope after Pope through the centuries who teach the same.  Even, for example, Pope Pius XII.


Fr. Ambrose, do you point these passages out for defensive purposes, or because you genuinely care about Roman Catholics?

Just briefly, I genuinely care.  I genuinely care about the salvation of the heterodox. I point these passages out, in appropriate discussions,  so that Roman Catholics may start to realise that the truth is not in their Church, that the Supreme Pontiff, the supposed organ of truth and infallibility, has made quite major contradictory declarations...and if they come to realise that, they may allow their mind and soul to open up to the prompting of the Spirit to seek the Truth elsewhere.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:19:37 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #98 on: June 17, 2010, 09:16:10 PM »
I must admit, this is a new one, that adds to the list.

For about 10 years, I have been watching these kinds of discussions about who can be saved that is outside the church and holds to false doctrines. In each group, I have seen statements that someone of another group cannot be saved.

I've seen:

Eastern Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
.

I want to challenge that very very strongly and you ought to try and substantiate it or withdraw.
Fr. Ambrose, I agree with danman916 and others who have stated that you totally missed the point of what he said, focused solely on one line of his post, and blew that one line totally out of context and proportion.

One may state the opposite of Danman and it will be far closer to the truth.   One could say that there are 300 million Orthoodox who do not believe that Catholics will be damned.

No derailing, Danman.
Quote
In light of what I said above, it seems very clear to me that you ARE derailing this thread with an off-topic rant and that you would do well to back up and read danman916's posts again.

I am not derailing this thread.  Whether or not you are right or wrong about me addressing Danman's post I am still addressing the salvation of the heterodox, the topic of this thread.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #99 on: June 18, 2010, 02:43:23 AM »
I must admit, this is a new one, that adds to the list.

For about 10 years, I have been watching these kinds of discussions about who can be saved that is outside the church and holds to false doctrines. In each group, I have seen statements that someone of another group cannot be saved.

I've seen:

Eastern Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
.

I want to challenge that very very strongly and you ought to try and substantiate it or withdraw.
Fr. Ambrose, I agree with danman916 and others who have stated that you totally missed the point of what he said, focused solely on one line of his post, and blew that one line totally out of context and proportion.

One may state the opposite of Danman and it will be far closer to the truth.   One could say that there are 300 million Orthoodox who do not believe that Catholics will be damned.
And yet you're still focused on that one line which makes up not even 10% of the post in question.  You're missing the whole forest because you're so focused on examining a beetle on one side of a single tree in that forest.

No derailing, Danman.
In light of what I said above, it seems very clear to me that you ARE derailing this thread with an off-topic rant and that you would do well to back up and read danman916's posts again.

I am not derailing this thread.  Whether or not you are right or wrong about me addressing Danman's post I am still addressing the salvation of the heterodox, the topic of this thread.
Then why don't you try reading his posts again and actually formulate a reply that addresses what he's really saying?
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2010, 02:52:25 AM »

And yet you're still focused on that one line which makes up not even 10% of the post in question.  You're missing the whole forest because you're so focused on examining a beetle on one side of a single tree in that forest.


Could we then widen the focus, take in a few more beetles,  and ask Danman to expatiate on these additional things of which he wrote:

"Oriental Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
"Now, Oriental Orthodox say that Eastern Orthodox cannot be saved."


PS:  I am a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church .  That will help explain why I focused on what Danman said about my Church and did not question him about what he said about traditionalist Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, etc.



Then why don't you try reading his posts again and actually formulate a reply that addresses what he's really saying?

I think the first thing to be done is establish the reliability of what he is saying.  Then we can proceed with the discussion.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 02:56:12 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2010, 02:53:56 AM »

And yet you're still focused on that one line which makes up not even 10% of the post in question.  You're missing the whole forest because you're so focused on examining a beetle on one side of a single tree in that forest.


Could we then widen the focus, take in a few more beetles,  and ask Danman to expatiate on these additional things of which he wrote:

:Oriental Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
"Now, Oriental Orthodox say that Eastern Orthodox cannot be saved."


PS:  I am a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church .  That will help explain why I focused on what Danman said about my Church and did not question him about what he said about traditionalist Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, etc.



You're still missing his point.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #102 on: June 18, 2010, 02:58:45 AM »

And yet you're still focused on that one line which makes up not even 10% of the post in question.  You're missing the whole forest because you're so focused on examining a beetle on one side of a single tree in that forest.


Could we then widen the focus, take in a few more beetles,  and ask Danman to expatiate on these additional things of which he wrote:

:Oriental Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
"Now, Oriental Orthodox say that Eastern Orthodox cannot be saved."


PS:  I am a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church .  That will help explain why I focused on what Danman said about my Church and did not question him about what he said about traditionalist Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, etc.



You're still missing his point.

I am not missing his point.  But I do dispute that his point is well based in reality and would like to see what he has based it on.

If I made such statements as Danman has, I would expect to be challenged and asked to give the evidence.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 03:02:21 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #103 on: June 18, 2010, 03:38:47 AM »

And yet you're still focused on that one line which makes up not even 10% of the post in question.  You're missing the whole forest because you're so focused on examining a beetle on one side of a single tree in that forest.


Could we then widen the focus, take in a few more beetles,  and ask Danman to expatiate on these additional things of which he wrote:

:Oriental Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
"Now, Oriental Orthodox say that Eastern Orthodox cannot be saved."


PS:  I am a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church .  That will help explain why I focused on what Danman said about my Church and did not question him about what he said about traditionalist Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, etc.



You're still missing his point.

I am not missing his point.  But I do dispute that his point is well based in reality and would like to see what he has based it on.
Actually, Fr. Ambrose, it's best for danman916 to tell you whether you comprehend his point or not. ;)  Since he's the one trying to communicate to us, he and he alone knows what he wants to communicate.  If he says you're missing his point, the point he's trying to communicate, you're missing his point.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #104 on: June 18, 2010, 04:10:01 AM »

And yet you're still focused on that one line which makes up not even 10% of the post in question.  You're missing the whole forest because you're so focused on examining a beetle on one side of a single tree in that forest.


Could we then widen the focus, take in a few more beetles,  and ask Danman to expatiate on these additional things of which he wrote:

:Oriental Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
"Now, Oriental Orthodox say that Eastern Orthodox cannot be saved."


PS:  I am a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church .  That will help explain why I focused on what Danman said about my Church and did not question him about what he said about traditionalist Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, etc.



You're still missing his point.

I am not missing his point.  But I do dispute that his point is well based in reality and would like to see what he has based it on.
Actually, Fr. Ambrose, it's best for danman916 to tell you whether you comprehend his point or not. ;)  Since he's the one trying to communicate to us, he and he alone knows what he wants to communicate.  If he says you're missing his point, the point he's trying to communicate, you're missing his point.

Dear Peter,

Thank you for trying to help me understand Danman's point.  I believe he makes it with clarity in message 76.  I just happen to disagree with the premises in message 73 on which he makes it.  I notice that in message 74 a Coptic priest expresses his disagreement.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #105 on: June 18, 2010, 04:16:59 AM »

And yet you're still focused on that one line which makes up not even 10% of the post in question.  You're missing the whole forest because you're so focused on examining a beetle on one side of a single tree in that forest.


Could we then widen the focus, take in a few more beetles,  and ask Danman to expatiate on these additional things of which he wrote:

:Oriental Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
"Now, Oriental Orthodox say that Eastern Orthodox cannot be saved."


PS:  I am a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church .  That will help explain why I focused on what Danman said about my Church and did not question him about what he said about traditionalist Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, etc.



You're still missing his point.

I am not missing his point.  But I do dispute that his point is well based in reality and would like to see what he has based it on.
Actually, Fr. Ambrose, it's best for danman916 to tell you whether you comprehend his point or not. ;)  Since he's the one trying to communicate to us, he and he alone knows what he wants to communicate.  If he says you're missing his point, the point he's trying to communicate, you're missing his point.

Dear Peter,

Thank you for trying to help me understand Danman's point.  I believe he makes it with clarity in message 76.  I just happen to disagree with the premises in message 73 on which he makes it.  I notice that in message 74 a Coptic priest expresses his disagreement.
I still intend to let Danman tell us what his point is and whether we're comprehending it properly.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #106 on: June 18, 2010, 04:43:42 AM »

And yet you're still focused on that one line which makes up not even 10% of the post in question.  You're missing the whole forest because you're so focused on examining a beetle on one side of a single tree in that forest.


Could we then widen the focus, take in a few more beetles,  and ask Danman to expatiate on these additional things of which he wrote:

:Oriental Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
"Now, Oriental Orthodox say that Eastern Orthodox cannot be saved."


PS:  I am a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church .  That will help explain why I focused on what Danman said about my Church and did not question him about what he said about traditionalist Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, etc.



You're still missing his point.

I am not missing his point.  But I do dispute that his point is well based in reality and would like to see what he has based it on.
Actually, Fr. Ambrose, it's best for danman916 to tell you whether you comprehend his point or not. ;)  Since he's the one trying to communicate to us, he and he alone knows what he wants to communicate.  If he says you're missing his point, the point he's trying to communicate, you're missing his point.

Dear Peter,

Thank you for trying to help me understand Danman's point.  I believe he makes it with clarity in message 76.  I just happen to disagree with the premises in message 73 on which he makes it.  I notice that in message 74 a Coptic priest expresses his disagreement.
I still intend to let Danman tell us what his point is and whether we're comprehending it properly.

I hope so too.  If I have misunderstood his point to the extent you seem to be telling me, then I could certainly do with his help in comprehending. 

Offline danman916

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #107 on: June 18, 2010, 09:13:51 AM »
My point was simply this:

On the internet, many people of different faiths try to explain what it is that their faith teaches and believes. I am not talking about "official pronouncements". I am talking about how people interpret those official pronouncements, how those interpretatations are received by others of different faiths, and how one who is a seeker discerns among the various teachings of different Christian communities (i use the term community in general to include all groups whether or not the fit the definition of a "Church" or not).

The rationale behind this was from a pastoral concern. I am just a layman, but I gone through lay ministry formation in the Catholic Church, and so I am involved in lay ministry in my parish under the direction of my pastor, assisting, with others, in adult faith formation.

The question of "who is right" is something that comes up often enough that it is something that I see in people who are trying to have a deeper faith life. People are looking for truth and they can get very confused hearing X claims it is the one true Church, Y claims that it is the one true Church, etc.

No one is denying that Christ established One Church, that is Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. The issue is how to help one wade through all of this and deepen their faith and devotion to the Lord through that process of discernment.

It was a real practical matter, I was addressing because I have seen it in helping others.

We can argue about all of the official pronouncements, whether or not they were "contradicted" or simply exist in tension (and there is nothing wrong with a belief existing in tension, even the Orthodox will admit), but there is a practical matter that I see.

Does all of this intellectual arguing help or hurt the "common Joe". Sometimes I think it doesn't help.

I'm sorry if that took this thread way off course. I simply saw it as the deeper issue to what we were discussing, that's all.

That said, I'm sorry that I got frustrated, and apologize if anything I said came off sounding uncharitable. I did not mean to be.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 09:16:20 AM by danman916 »

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Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #108 on: June 18, 2010, 11:39:40 PM »
Latest tangent split off and moved here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28332.0.html  -PtA
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