Author Topic: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?  (Read 25653 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2010, 05:20:18 PM »


"Nothing so provokes God's anger as the division of the Church. Yea, though we have achieved ten thousand glorious acts, yet shall we, if we cut to pieces the fullness of the Church, suffer punishment no less sore than they who mangled His body." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 11 on Ephesians

Even if the Church made a mistake, exactness in the observance of times
would not be as important as the offence caused by division and schism."   
~St. John Chrysostom



It is worth noting that Saint John is actually talking about the dating of Pascha.  He was willing to accept discrepancies rather than have schisms.

Peter The Aleut says that the last quote has some apophatic meaning other than what I see as it obvious meaning.  Unfortunately he declined to explain when asked.  Does anybody know?

Does this mean that there are varying opinions inside the Orthodox Patriarchates and Orientals whether Old Calendarists out of communion with the Orthodox Patriarchates are vagante?

Sorry if it is a hard question.

It would be difficult to apply the commonly-used definitions or examples of vagante bishops to the Old Calendarists.  Usually vagante jurisdictions are set up around vagante bishops - who are "ordained" outside of the existing Orthodox ecclesiastical structure, or who trace their roots dubiously to someone within the ecclesiastical structure but who split off from that structure.  99% of vagante groups operate (a) with 2 or fewer hierarchs, (b) out of communion even with other vagante groups, and (c) under the pretense that all others have fallen away except their small number.  They exist essentially as the Orthodox equivalent of a megachurch-like "cult of personality" - groups formed around one person who claims to be the only true bishop around.

The Old Calendarist jurisdictions arose out of concern for the fidelity of the Church to its tradition following the entry of various Orthodox jurisdictions into dialogue with the Western Christian churches and the changing of the ecclesiastical calendar to the Revised Julian.  Unlike the vagante groups, who are not taken seriously by anyone, the Old Calendarists found themselves faced with two reactions: disapproval (and frequent persecution) within the countries that they arose in, and sympathy from the other Old Calendar jurisdictions who remained in communion with the New Calendar jurisdictions.  The Old Calendarist jurisdictions operate with a considerable number of clergy (sizable numbers of both hierarchs & priests), a well-developed missionary outreach in certain areas, and the desire to correct the errors of the other Churches in order to re-unite Orthodoxy (rather than merely maintain the status quo) - which they hope to accomplish through their internet outreach, and their continued presence within the public eye in the countries where the Church has adopted the New Calendar.

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2010, 05:28:42 PM »
At the Pan-Orthodox Summit at Thessaloniki in May 1998 the Churches took the opportunity to make an official statement on schismatic Old Calendarist and True Orthodox groups

The delegates unanimously denounced those groups of schismatics, as well as certain extremist groups, within the local Orthodox Churches themselves that are using the theme of ecumenism in order to criticize the Church’s leadership and to undermine its authority, thus attempting to create divisions and schisms within the Church. They also use non-factual material and misinformation in order to support their unjust criticism.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/thessaloniki_roc.aspx

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2010, 05:37:20 PM »
From various posts which you have sent to the forum I gather that you consider the Eastern Orthodox as heterodox.

Not exactly. I have explained a number of times that I regard Chalcedon as essentially heterodox, and thus the EOC as heterodox shortly following Chalcedon. However, I have also expressed my recognition of the common belief that Constantinople II corrected the errors of Chalcedon. So I would say that you are lacking continuity in orthodoxy, but not necessarily that you are not orthodox right now.

Does this means that we cannot be saved?

Your church is a peculiarity that it would be hard to answer this question as such. For those who are clearly heterodox (the Romans, Protestants, etc.), I can say with confidence that their minds would have to be changed for them to be completely compatible with the Kingdom of Heaven. I do certainly think that you will have to be reunited to the Orthodox Church at some point. Perhaps the identification of the Church is a significant enough point of divergence. Otherwise, however, I do not think that such a change of doctrinal mindset will have to happen.

Will we we saved only if we convert to Coptic or Armenian or Syriac Orthodoxy?

Ultimately and finally your salvation will likely have to involve the realization of the OOC as the Church of Christ and reunion with her.

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2010, 05:39:29 PM »
Yes and apparently Deus is saying that only until recently did the "Oriental Orthodox Church" accept the "Orthodox Church's" baptisms as valid.

I do not think that I asserted that as a certainty, but rather suggested that it was the logical implication of the Coptic church just recently declaring its recognition of the Greek church of Alexandria's baptisms in their pastoral agreement in the 90's.

Offline Father Peter

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,202
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2010, 05:44:08 PM »
That is no more a logical conclusion (I have shown that it is not historical) than those who say that a doctrine such as that of the Trinity was invented at various councils because a certain position was described authoritatively in council for the first time there.

The agreement between the Greeks and Coptic Orthodox was clearly the appropriate place to describe the nature of the sacramental understanding between the two Churches but it does not mean (and has been shown not to mean) that this was the first time that the Greek baptism was accepted.

I am not sure what more is required for you to accept that the Byzantines have not been baptised by the Orthodox.

Father Peter
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2010, 05:44:42 PM »
No, I believe that I know his answer. He is in line with Pope Shenouda and Mar Bishoy.  Actually no, he is even more strict than they are since they do not extend damnation to the 'heterodox' Eastern Orthodox.  A case of being more Coptic than the Pope.  :laugh:

Unfortunately Bishop Bishoy has signed the problematic Agreed Statements with the Byzantines in which it is claimed that you have "always loyally maintained the same authentic orthodox christology". If we reject such a sentiment, and even the seeming branch theory that goes along with it, the realization that you will have to eventually be reconciled with the historical OOC is the logical conclusion.

However, if you read my post, I am not necessarily consigning you to damnation. Nor am I even labeling you as explicitly orthodox. Simply that you at one point deviated from pure orthodoxy and are thus outside the Church and will eventually need to be reconciled to her.

By the way, it's such a chore to type out DeusVeritasEst and in one of his posts, he says we may call him Chris and Cyril (sp?) so I am doing that and giving my fingers a rest.

Christopher is my secular birth name. Cyril (after Cyril of Alexandria) is the name I was given at my EO Baptism and Chrismation, which I intend to most likely keep if I ever fully convert to OOy.

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2010, 05:47:34 PM »
That is no more a logical conclusion (I have shown that it is not historical) than those who say that a doctrine such as that of the Trinity was invented at various councils because a certain position was described authoritatively in council for the first time there.

The agreement between the Greeks and Coptic Orthodox was clearly the appropriate place to describe the nature of the sacramental understanding between the two Churches but it does not mean (and has been shown not to mean) that this was the first time that the Greek baptism was accepted.

But the pastoral agreement explicitly establishes that it is done on the basis of the recent Agreed Statements!

Offline Father Peter

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,202
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2010, 06:03:33 PM »
I am really confused as to what you aim is in this conversation and in others?

I have shown conclusively that the Orthodox have never baptised the Byzantines, and yet you persist in wanting to show that the baptism of the Byzantines has only lately been accepted?

Why? Where are you trying to go with this?

I am not sure that there is any point in me repeating the same historical documents which show that the Byzantines have not been baptised.

Even the Pastoral Recommendations does not support your view. #6 says..

Churches of both families should agree that they will not rebaptize members of each other, for recognition of the baptism of the Churches of our two families, if they have not already done so.

The Orthodox had clearly already agreed to recognise the baptism of the Byzantines and had done so since the beginning of the controversy. This passage refers to the Byzantines who have on occasion insisted on the re-baptism of Orthodox. The passage would not include 'if they have not already done so' if in fact both parties had never accepted the baptism of the other. It allows for the fact that some churches did practice re-baptism and does not state that the Copts or other Orthodox had ever baptised Byzantines. I have provided more than enough evidence to show what the Orthodox teaching is.

Father Peter
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,937
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2010, 06:46:09 PM »
Why as Father Anastasios told me are members of the Orthodox Church then sometimes allowed (by Orthodox and nonChalcedonian bishops) to commune in nonChalcedonian churches, especially where Orthodox Churches are not nearby? I was twice rejected from Communion at a Coptic Orthodox church, apparently being under the wrong impression of what was permissible.

The Copts do not teach that Byzantines are not baptised.

I have already stated this.

Father Peter

I am confused.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 06:51:34 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Father Peter

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,202
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2010, 06:48:49 PM »
The Copts do not teach that Byzantines are not baptised.

I have already stated this.

Father Peter
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Father Peter

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,202
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2010, 06:59:34 PM »
Why are you confused?
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Anastasios

  • Webdespota
  • Administrator
  • Merarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,517
  • St. Chrysostomos the New
    • AnastasiosHudson.com
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2010, 07:03:56 PM »
Fr Peter,

I will answer your question shortly.

rakovsky,

In my experience, the Copts only communed an EO member when there was no EO Church around, but I was witness to EO (and Catholics) communed in the Syrian and Armenian Churches when there was in fact an EO Church nearby, on several occasions. Perhaps it depends on the jurisdiction.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 07:06:02 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,937
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2010, 07:10:25 PM »
Why are you confused?


"I have shown conclusively that the Orthodox have never baptised the Byzantines"

Do you mean Chalcedonian or nonChalcedonian Orthodox and who do youmean by Byzantines? Byzantine Catholics or the Orthodoxy of the Byzantine empire?
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Father Peter

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,202
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2010, 07:12:07 PM »
Dear Father Anastasios,

Yes, I think that it depends on whether communion is offered to a Byzantine as a serious pastoral matter rather than as a matter of simple fellowship.

The Armenians and Syrians do have a more porous approach, and of course agreements in the Middle East between Syrians and Antiochians would seem to go a very great way towards a practical intercommunion at all levels. While agreements between Greeks and Copts in Egypt take account of mixed marriages, but also are shown to have taken particular views about the sacraments of the others.

I do know, as you will, of Eastern Orthodox churches who have exercised a similar pastoral approach to various isolated Oriental Orthodox faithful, and even Roman Catholics.

The view of the Oriental Orthodox in the past was that the ordinary lay person should not be held to the same standard of exactitude as a clergyman and teacher, and should therefore not unnecessarily be excluded from the possibility of communion.
 
Father Peter
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Father Peter

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,202
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2010, 07:15:43 PM »
I mean that the Oriental Orthodox have not (outside of individual cases I am not aware of) baptised Eastern Orthodox.

At some point in the past the Copts have taken the view that Catholics should be baptised. This would not have been the case in the patristic period, and I can't find evidence that it took place when there was a warming of relations between Copts and Rome in the Medieval period. So I am guessing that it has happened as a result of the modern 'intrusion' of Catholicism into Egypt in the 19th century and the fact that most Catholics are ex-Orthodox in one way or another. I think this has tended to focus minds on the fact that Catholic baptism is not by immersion and that Catholics have introduced new doctrines.

Father Peter
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,937
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2010, 07:17:30 PM »
OK, so what can I do if a Coptic priest won't give me communion, especially if I am where there are no canonical Orthodox churches nearby?

Thanks.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Father Peter

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,202
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2010, 07:23:20 PM »
You could make contact with the priest in advance and ask him what his practice is, then you could ask him to ask his bishop what his bishop's practice is.

If the bishop says no then that is it.

The priest and bishop may well also want to take account of your own situation and the attitude of your own priest and bishop.

The priest might want to see that you are regular in Church and not just a eucharistic tourist.

Father Peter
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,937
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2010, 07:40:05 PM »
You could make contact with the priest in advance and ask him what his practice is, then you could ask him to ask his bishop what his bishop's practice is.

If the bishop says no then that is it.

The priest and bishop may well also want to take account of your own situation and the attitude of your own priest and bishop.

The priest might want to see that you are regular in Church and not just a eucharistic tourist.

Father Peter

There is is a movie by a Protestant who takes tours to Egypt to retrace where Jesus was as a child. www.jesusinegypt.com/

Please tell me what you think about it?

I think it would be fun to go to the place in Egypt as a tourist, attending church services there. Maybe that makes me a Eucharistic Tourist, but I think it could be a very good experience.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Salpy

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,461
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2010, 08:10:20 PM »
I've seen that movie.  It's great and I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it.  We sell the dvd at my church.

I think what is meant by eucharistic tourist is someone who wants to take communion in other churches just for the experience.  That's different from someone who is really very far away from their own church and can only take communion in another church.

EO's have asked me if it would be OK for them to take communion in the Armenian Church.  I've told them that an Armenian priest will most likely give them communion, but that they should first speak with their own EO priest.  I've told them that although they can commune in an Armenian church, the act of communing with us may excommunicate them from their own EO Church.  You need to take that into consideration.  That may be what the Coptic priest you dealt with was worried about, especially if there was an EO parish anywhere in the area.  If you really are so far from an EO church that you cannot commune in one, then that may be a different situation.

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2010, 08:20:23 PM »

I do know, as you will, of Eastern Orthodox churches who have exercised a similar pastoral approach to various isolated Oriental Orthodox faithful, and even Roman Catholics.


The parishes of the Antiochian Church in this country commune Copts, Ethiopians, Syriacs, Melkites, Maronites, Roman Catholics and Anglicans (the latter to a limited extent depending on their belief in the Real Presence.)


In previous years the Greeks in this country would commune Oriental Orthodox as would the Serbs.  However this has ceased over the last 15 years on instuctions from the bishops.


Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,937
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2010, 09:01:58 PM »
If in this country you mean USA, I think you are wrong. An Antiochian priest told me that he said to a Maronite he would have to be Orthodox for Communion.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Salpy

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,461
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2010, 09:07:43 PM »
I believe Fr. Ambrose lives in New Zealand.   :)

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2010, 09:15:51 PM »
I believe Fr. Ambrose lives in New Zealand.   :)

Yes, in the beautful and fair land of Middle Earth
where hobbits roam and build their homes.

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,314
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2010, 11:21:06 PM »
I do know, as you will, of Eastern Orthodox churches who have exercised a similar pastoral approach to various isolated Oriental Orthodox faithful, and even Roman Catholics. 

We have a parish of our Metropolis that counts amongst its membership a number of Ethiopian Orthodox faithful, who attend because there is no Ethiopian church nearby.
How in Mor's good name
one hundred fifty four posts
No Rachel Weisz pic

Selam

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,937
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2010, 11:53:57 PM »
There is no Ethiopian Church here in Pittsburgh, so wouldn't they have to go to the Coptic church in Ambridge based on this rule?
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,314
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2010, 12:01:00 AM »
There is no Ethiopian Church here in Pittsburgh, so wouldn't they have to go to the Coptic church in Ambridge based on this rule?

I don't know why they wouldn't.  They are in communion with one another, after all.  Aren't there other churches of the Oriental Orthodox communion closer than Ambridge?
How in Mor's good name
one hundred fifty four posts
No Rachel Weisz pic

Selam

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,937
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2010, 12:06:16 AM »
I don't know of any others, but would be curious to find out if there were.

SCOBA has such a nice website to search for the nearest Orthodox church to you. I am not aware of search a search engine for vagantes, Orientals, or eastern Catholics.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2010, 03:43:59 AM »


"Nothing so provokes God's anger as the division of the Church. Yea, though we have achieved ten thousand glorious acts, yet shall we, if we cut to pieces the fullness of the Church, suffer punishment no less sore than they who mangled His body." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 11 on Ephesians

Even if the Church made a mistake, exactness in the observance of times
would not be as important as the offence caused by division and schism."   
~St. John Chrysostom



It is worth noting that Saint John is actually talking about the dating of Pascha.  He was willing to accept discrepancies rather than have schisms.

Peter The Aleut says that the last quote has some apophatic meaning other than what I see as it obvious meaning.  Unfortunately he declined to explain when asked.  Does anybody know?
LOL! :laugh:  It's not the quote itself that has any apophatic meaning.  I was actually talking about my approach to the quote, that it's easier for me to tell you one thing it probably does NOT mean than it is for me to tell you what it DOES mean, which is essentially the definition of the apophatic approach.  (I'm using this word to tie in my approach to the Church's tradition of apophatic theology, the theological method that recognizes that it's often much easier and more accurate to define what God is not than to define what God is.)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline danman916

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2010, 08:52:24 AM »
I must admit, this is a new one, that adds to the list.

For about 10 years, I have been watching these kinds of discussions about who can be saved that is outside the church and holds to false doctrines. In each group, I have seen statements that someone of another group cannot be saved.

I've seen:

Evangelicals and fundamentalist protestants say Catholics cannot be saved because they follow false doctrines.
Traditionalist Catholics say that Protestants cannot be saved because they are heretics.
Traditionalist Catholics say that all Orthodox cannot be saved because they are schismatics and their sacraments are a sacrilege.
Eastern Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
Oriental Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
Now, Oriental Orthodox say that Eastern Orthodox cannot be saved.

As a casual observer of this, of someone who is involved as a layman in pastoral ministry in my parish, this kind of thing can really be a detriment to someone who is searching for God in their life, and is trying to embrace their faith. The 'everyone is a heretic by the standards of someone else" can really be problematic in pastoral ministry because people can see this and lose hope that there is no way any average person is going to be able to wade through this and discern the claims between one group and another.

I've even heard people say that if they are really sincere and pray enough that the Holy Spirit will lead them to truth. That's true enough, but implicit in that is that "their" particular affiliation IS the truth. So when you have two different groups implying that, a seeker simply gets all the more confused and it becomes even harder to discern the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not implying that we disregard the truth just to all get along. But does anyone else see the detriment that this has to people in the Church's pastoral ministry?
I do, because I have seen it.

It's very unfortunate, because this issue attack's people's hope that they can find truth.

Offline Father Peter

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,202
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2010, 09:02:46 AM »
I haven't said that EO can't be saved.

Who has said that?

Father Peter
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2010, 09:08:44 AM »
I must admit, this is a new one, that adds to the list.

For about 10 years, I have been watching these kinds of discussions about who can be saved that is outside the church and holds to false doctrines. In each group, I have seen statements that someone of another group cannot be saved.

I've seen:

Eastern Orthodox say that Catholics are heretics and cannot be saved.
.

I want to challenge that very very strongly and you ought to try and substantiate it or withdraw.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:15:33 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline danman916

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2010, 09:27:59 AM »
What I am saying is that in the years in which I have been on different boards (beliefnet, CA forums, this one, byzcath, beliefcorner, your spirituality), I have seen these comments made by people who claim to be affirming what their particular faith teaches.

I am not accusing anyone here of being judgemental or uncharitable.

I am making an observation that, from a pastoral ministry perspective, these kinds of affirmations by people is a real cause for anxiety among a few people i've seen that have this really shake their faith.

I hope I have clarified myself, as I am not trying to be accusatory to anyone here as condemning others.

My point is that, i've seen it on internet forums, and some people are hearing the message that way. My concern is of a pastoral nature.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:30:22 AM by danman916 »

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2010, 09:40:24 AM »
Infallible statements from a Catholic Ecumenical Council and from the Supreme Pontiff Boniface VIII that Jews and Orthodox, Buddhists, Moslems and Mormons cannot be saved.

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8.); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed…

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Offline danman916

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2010, 09:44:57 AM »
YOU DIDN'T HEAR A WORD I SAID.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,980
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2010, 09:45:13 AM »
If one rereads the OP wherein Metropolitan Philaret of blessed memory is quoted, one should find that he has a much less rigid take on salvation of the heterodox. The Lord became incarnate and died to save every man, and He is still working to this day toward that end. I don't think there is anyone for whom we can say that salvation is impossible. With God, all things are possible. It is we, men, who refuse Him. But, as Fr. Paisius of Mt. Athos says, when we pray for someone, we give God an excuse to act, even for someone who refuses Him, because He will act for the one who prays. We are to pray for everyone, living and departed, that God's will may be done, that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Some are seriously misinformed to say that either salvation is impossible for the non-Orthodox, or automatic for the Orthodox. They are wrong. Don't listen to them.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2010, 09:51:19 AM »
If one rereads the OP wherein Metropolitan Philaret of blessed memory is quoted, one should find that he has a much less rigid take on salvation of the heterodox. The Lord became incarnate and died to save every man, and He is still working to this day toward that end. I don't think there is anyone for whom we can say that salvation is impossible. With God, all things are possible. It is we, men, who refuse Him. But, as Fr. Paisius of Mt. Athos says, when we pray for someone, we give God an excuse to act, even for someone who refuses Him, because He will act for the one who prays. We are to pray for everyone, living and departed, that God's will may be done, that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Some are seriously misinformed to say that either salvation is impossible for the non-Orthodox, or automatic for the Orthodox. They are wrong. Don't listen to them.

I am with you brother from Shanghai.

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2010, 09:55:14 AM »
YOU DIDN'T HEAR A WORD I SAID.


I did.  You appealed to what seems to be ill-founded opinions of anonymous people on some forums, possibly disturbed people.

I gave you official statements of the Roman Catholic Church.

I think you must be aware that we can quote Pope after Pope through the centuries who teach the same.  Even, for example, Pope Pius XII.

Offline danman916

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2010, 10:09:03 AM »
YOU DIDN'T HEAR A WORD I SAID.


I did.  You appealed to what seems to be ill-founded opinions of anonymous people on some forums, possibly disturbed people.

I gave you official statements of the Roman Catholic Church.

I think you must be aware that we can quote Pope after Pope through the centuries who teach the same.  Even, for example, Pope Pius XII.

and if you did read, you would have heard that i explicitly stated that my observation is that the opinions bandied about form a barrier to some people who ubnfortunately lose hope because they are given false information.

Now dear Father, you have done just that as Unam Sanctan is NOT infallible, nor does it meet the conditions set forth for infallibility.

You see, you have just demonstrated my point exactly, In goving your own opinions of Catholicism, you perpetuate a false understanding, all the while INSISTING that you indeed are only demonstrating what abother group teaches.

You always give very accurate indformation when it comes to Eastern Orthodoxy. When you opine about Catholicism, your information is not quite correct, much of the time.

But thank you for demonstrating my observation quite well. In quoting Unam Sanctam as an infallible bull, you have just done what I am observing is a problem, at times, for those involved in pastoral ministry in their local parish.

So my point stands, NO, you didn't hear a word I said because you went straight into an apologetic. You know as well as I do that pastoral ministry doesn't engage in apologetics, but rahter engages in reaching a person where they are, and helping them reach clarity in a brotherly way.


Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #83 on: June 17, 2010, 10:13:38 AM »

Now dear Father, you have done just that as Unam Sanctan is NOT infallible, nor does it meet the conditions set forth for infallibility.

This meets the conditions for infallibility:

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Offline danman916

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #84 on: June 17, 2010, 10:26:08 AM »
No, it does not. a condition of infallibility is that this bull must clearly be addressed to the entire universal Church. It clearly does not. In addition, it must explicitly state that it wishes to invoke an extraordinary usage of the magesterium.
It is not enough to say that it is universal in character. It must unequivocably state as such. Your quote above meets ONE of the conditions. ALL of them must be met.

But that was NEVER the point of my original  observation.

Why are you attempting to de-rail this, when I clearly stated that the problem is that all groups tend to do this. Why the need to go on attack mode of Catholicism here?

« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 10:26:43 AM by danman916 »

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #85 on: June 17, 2010, 10:38:10 AM »
No, it does not. a condition of infallibility is that this bull must clearly be addressed to the entire universal Church. It clearly does not. In addition, it must explicitly state that it wishes to invoke an extraordinary usage of the magesterium.
It is not enough to say that it is universal in character. It must unequivocably state as such. Your quote above meets ONE of the conditions. ALL of them must be met.

But that was NEVER the point of my original  observation.

Why are you attempting to de-rail this, when I clearly stated that the problem is that all groups tend to do this. Why the need to go on attack mode of Catholicism here?



No derailing, Danman.  Your Church has a stack of official statements from centuries past, and some of them infallible, that those who are not members of the Roman Catholic Church (i.e., heterodox)and not in submission to the Supreme Pontiff cannot be saved.  These statements have immensely more weight than the scribblings you read on internet forums.

Offline danman916

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #86 on: June 17, 2010, 11:47:50 AM »
  Your Church has a stack of official statements from centuries past,
If you look back at my post, I clearly stated that all groups, including Catholics, have stated this.
You went off on the tangent to focus solely on Catholicism.



 
Quote
These statements have immensely more weight than the scribblings you read on internet forums.
Again, you didn't hear what I said. I was addressing the pastoral issue we face today of all groups stating THEY are the Church, the others are not, and salvation is only found in THEIR Church alone.

As I have stated this now for the 4th time, and you still haven't addressed that reality of the way the world is today and the problems that some face in trying to discern voices from all Christian groups saying they are teh Church, I see no reason to continue when you are arguing a point I wasn't even making.

The point I was making wasn't that complicated.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #87 on: June 17, 2010, 01:23:18 PM »
YOU DIDN'T HEAR A WORD I SAID.


I did.  You appealed to what seems to be ill-founded opinions of anonymous people on some forums, possibly disturbed people.

I gave you official statements of the Roman Catholic Church.

I think you must be aware that we can quote Pope after Pope through the centuries who teach the same.  Even, for example, Pope Pius XII.

1. The Catholic Church has consistently taught the concept of invincible ignorance, and so those statements that you have provided need to be interperated in light of invnincible ignornance.
2. The Catholic Church has further clarified the matter by pointing out that other Christians have partial communion with the Catholic Church, this communion being most strongly held by Apostolic Christians such as the EOs, OOs, and ACE.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #88 on: June 17, 2010, 01:23:18 PM »
YOU DIDN'T HEAR A WORD I SAID.


I did.  You appealed to what seems to be ill-founded opinions of anonymous people on some forums, possibly disturbed people.

I gave you official statements of the Roman Catholic Church.

I think you must be aware that we can quote Pope after Pope through the centuries who teach the same.  Even, for example, Pope Pius XII.


Fr. Ambrose, do you point these passages out for defensive purposes, or because you genuinely care about Roman Catholics?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2010, 01:23:19 PM »

Now dear Father, you have done just that as Unam Sanctan is NOT infallible, nor does it meet the conditions set forth for infallibility.

This meets the conditions for infallibility:

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."


I would say that everyone is subject to the Roman Pontiff, whether they choose to recognize it or not. :)
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.