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« on: March 07, 2005, 06:18:33 PM »

Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
Archimandite (Metropolitan) Philaret, of blessed memory (+1985)
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Question: "If the Orthodox faith is the only true faith, can Christians of other confessions be saved? May a person who has led a perfectly righteous life on earth be saved on the strength of his ancestry, while not being baptized as Christian?

Answer: "For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth [struggleth], but of God that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:15-16). In the Orthodox Church we have the path of salvation indicated to us and we are given the means by which a person maybe morally purified and have a direct promise of salvation. In this sense St. Cyprian of Carthage says that "outside the Church there is no salvation." In the Church is given that of which Apostle Peter writes to Christians (and only Christians): "According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 1:3-8). And what should one say of those outside the Church, who do not belong to her? Another apostle provides us with an idea: "For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth" (1 Cor. 5:12-13). God "will have mercy on whom He will have mercy" (Rom 9:18). It is necessary to mention only one thing: that to "lead a perfectly righteous life," as the questioner expressed it, means to live according to the commandments of the Beatitudes—which is beyond the power of one, outside the Orthodox Church, without the help of grace which is concealed within it.

The question: Can the heterodox, i.e. those who do, not belong to Orthodoxy—the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church—be saved, has become particularly painful and acute in our days.

In attempting to answer this question, it is necessary, first of all, to recall that in His Gospel the Lord Jesus Christ Himself mentions but one state of the human soul which unfailingly leads to perdition—i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:1-32). The Holy Spirit is, above all, the Spirit of Truth, as the Saviour loved to refer to Him. Accordingly, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Truth, conscious and persistent opposition to it. The same text makes it clear that even blasphemy against the Son of Man—i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God Himself may be forgiven men, as it may be uttered in error or in ignorance and, subsequently may be covered by conversion and repentance (an example of such a converted and repentant blasphemer is the Apostle Paul. (See Acts 26:11 and I Tim. 1:13.) If, however, a man opposes the Truth which he clearly apprehends by his reason and, conscience, he becomes blind and commits spiritual suicide, for he thereby likens himself to the devil, who believes in God and dreads Him, yet hates, blasphemes, and opposes Him.

Thus, man's refusal to accept the Divine Truth and his opposition thereto makes him a son of damnation. Accordingly, in sending His disciples to preach, the Lord told them: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk. 16:16), for the latter heard the Lord's Truth and was called upon to accept it, yet refused, thereby inheriting the damnation of those who "believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (II Thes. 2:12).

The Holy Orthodox Church is the repository of the divinely revealed Truth in all its fullness and fidelity to apostolic Tradition. Hence, he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematized such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-9), threatening them with e ternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold. It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth...* They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way.

With reference to the above question, it is particularly instructive to recall the answer once given to an inquirer by the Blessed Theophan the Recluse. The blessed one replied more or less thus: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

We believe the foregoing answer by the saintly ascetic to be the best that can be given in this matter.
* The Greek word for "heresy" is derived from the word for "choice" and hence inherently implies conscious, willful rejection or opposition to the Divine Truth manifest in the Orthodox Church.

From Orthodox Life, Vol. 34, No. 6 (Nov.-Dec., 1984), pp. 33-36.
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2005, 07:24:48 PM »

Saint Paul has already told us how it occurs that the non-Christians may be saved, and I imagine that it applies also to the heterodox...


"..for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
Romans 2:14-16

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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2010, 06:58:16 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Yes I believe what you said is right. The Calvinists would probably say that God has to choose you and give you knowledge about Jesus to be saved, since no one else can live up tot he law. But Calvinism doesn't count, and as I mentioned on http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,787.msg445006/topicseen.html#msg445006 I think its actively punitive side seems demonic.


Anyway, what I want to ask is- where does the name heterodox come from? What does it mean exactly? Is there such a thing as homodox?

Thank you.
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2010, 01:05:28 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Yes I believe what you said is right. The Calvinists would probably say that God has to choose you and give you knowledge about Jesus to be saved, since no one else can live up tot he law. But Calvinism doesn't count, and as I mentioned on http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,787.msg445006/topicseen.html#msg445006 I think its actively punitive side seems demonic.


Anyway, what I want to ask is- where does the name heterodox come from? What does it mean exactly? Is there such a thing as homodox?

Thank you.

Homodox would mean "same teaching".  Heterodox means "other teaching".  The opposite of Heterodox in a religious sense is Orthodox - correct teaching.  My Greek is pretty rusty but you get the gist.
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2010, 01:48:41 PM »

Irish Hermit,

Yes I believe what you said is right. The Calvinists would probably say that God has to choose you and give you knowledge about Jesus to be saved, since no one else can live up tot he law. But Calvinism doesn't count, and as I mentioned on http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,787.msg445006/topicseen.html#msg445006 I think its actively punitive side seems demonic.

Anyway, what I want to ask is- where does the name heterodox come from? What does it mean exactly? Is there such a thing as homodox?

Thank you.

Homodox would mean "same teaching".  Heterodox means "other teaching".  The opposite of Heterodox in a religious sense is Orthodox - correct teaching.  My Greek is pretty rusty but you get the gist.
Homodox is the opposite of heterodox.

Cacodox is the opposite of orthodox.
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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2010, 03:41:56 PM »

Quote
PASTORAL ENCYCLICAL
OF BISHOP MATTHEW OF BRESTHENA OF
1.10.1947
BISHOP MATTHEW OF BRESTHENA

...On the 1st of June 1944 in his Pastoral encyclical to the entire Christ‐named flock,
he writes that, “The cacodox Church of Greece is the treasury of divine grace,” as
endowed by the whole Church, and not just a fixed number of clergy and laity
detached for reasons of disagreement, for the healing of the ecclesiological
question (like the calendar)...

Amen.
With Fervent Prayers to the Lord
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+ MATTHEW OF BRESTHENA

ΜΕΤΑΦΡΑΣΙΣ ΘΕΟΧΑΡΗ ΚΕΚΗΣ
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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2010, 04:25:34 PM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.
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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2010, 04:45:09 PM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.
Must a "heterdox" person convert before he or she dies?
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2010, 05:00:04 PM »

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On the Status of the Heterodox

by Fr. Michael Pomazansky


The Orthodox teaching of the Church, which in itself is quite clear and rests upon Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, is to be contrasted with another concept which is widespread in the contemporary Protestant world and has penetrated even into Orthodox circles. According to this different concept, all the various existing Christian organizations, the so-called "confessions" and "sects," even though they are separated from each other, still comprise a single "invisible Church," inasmuch as each of them confesses Christ as Son of God and accepts His Gospel.

The dissemination of such a view is aided by the fact that side by side with the Orthodox Church there exists outside of her a number of Christians that exceeds by several times the number of members of the Orthodox Church. Often we can observe in this Christian world outside the Church a religious fervor and faith, a worthy moral life, a conviction—all the way to fanaticism—of one's correctness, an organization and a broad charitable activity. What is the relation of all of them to the Church of Christ?

Of course, there is no reason to view these confessions and sects as on the same level with non-Christian religions. One cannot deny that the reading of the word of God has a beneficial influence upon everyone who seeks in it instruction and strengthening of faith, and that devout reflection on God the Creator, the Provider and Saviour, has an elevating power there among Protestants also. We cannot say that their prayers are totally fruitless if they come from a pure heart, for in every nation he that feareth Him... is accepted with Him (Acts 10:3-5). The Omnipresent Good Provider God is over them, and they are not deprived of God's mercies. They help to restrain moral looseness, vices, and crimes; and they oppose the spread of atheism.

But all this does not give us grounds to consider them as belonging to the Church. Already the fact that one part of this broad Christian world outside the Church, namely the whole of Protestantism, denies the bond with the heavenly Church, that is, the veneration in prayer of the Mother of God and the saints, and likewise prayer for the dead, indicates that they themselves have destroyed the bond with the one Body of Christ which unites in itself the heavenly and the earthly. Further, it is a fact that these non-Orthodox confessions have "broken" in one form or another, directly or indirectly, with the Orthodox Church, with the Church in its historical form; they themselves have cut the bond, they have "departed' from her. Neither we nor they have the right to close our eyes to this fact.

The teachings of the non-Orthodox confessions contain heresies which were decisively rejected and condemned by the Church at her Ecumenical Councils. In these numerous branches of Christianity there is no unity, either outward or inward—either with the Orthodox Church of Christ or between themselves. The supra-confessional unification (the "ecumenical movement!') which is now to be observed does not enter into the depths of the life of these confessions, but has an outward character. The term " invisible" can refer only to the Heavenly Church. The Church on earth, even though it has its invisible side, like a ship a part of which is hidden in the water and is invisible to the eyes, still remains visible, because it consists of people and has visible forms of organization and sacred activity.

Therefore it is quite natural to affirm that these religious organizations are societies which are "near," or "next to," or " close to," or perhaps even" adjoining" the Church, but sometimes " against" it; but they are all "outside" the one Church of Christ. Some of them have cut themselves off, others have gone far away. Some, in going away, all the same have historical ties of blood with her; others have lost all kinship, and in them the very spirit and foundations of Christianity have been distorted. None of them find themselves under the activity of the grace which is present in the Church, and especially the grace which is given in the Mysteries of the Church. They are not nourished by that mystical table which leads up along the steps of moral perfection.

The tendency in contemporary cultural society to place all confessions on one level is not limited to Christianity; on this same all-equalling level are placed also the non-Christian religions, on the grounds that they all "lead to God," and besides, taken all together, they far surpass the Christian world in the number of members who belong to them.

All of such "uniting" and "equalizing" views indicate a forgetfulness of the principle that there can be many teachings and opinions, but there is only one truth. And authentic Christian unity—unity in the Church—can be based only upon oneness of mind, and not upon differences of mind. The Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth (I Tim. 3:15).

From Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, trans. by Fr. Seraphim Rose (Platina, CA: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1994), pp. 243-246.
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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2010, 05:09:31 PM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.
Must a "heterdox" person convert before he or she dies?

That is a realm of speculation I do not like to tread in all that much. We certainly believe that "the most grievous of sins" (i.e. not even just "venial sins" as in the Western tradition) may be forgiven in the hereafter and the forgiven turned through the sacrifice and prayers of the Church. It is possible that this includes even disbelief. It is also possible that in the Second Coming we will be given a chance to convert before the Judgment. Whether either of these are true I cannot say for certain one way or the other.

However, given that I believe that probably all will eventually be saved, if that were to be true, there would have to be some way in which the heterodox could be converted after death, given that there are many who have clearly died in heterodoxy.
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2010, 05:36:15 PM »

Doctrine is a joke anyway.
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 05:37:20 PM »

Doctrine is a joke anyway.
How so?
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 05:51:23 PM »

Doctrine is a joke anyway.

Huh?  Huh
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 06:04:05 PM »

Quote
Doctrine is a joke anyway.
How so?
He finds the truth entertaining perhaps? Or he is laughing that an Oriental Orthodox is treating his position as doctrine when responding to a question about the orthodox Church? Or he is in a very good mood. Or he does not place much spiritual authority in doctrine generally. Or all of the above.
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2010, 06:12:00 PM »

Or he is laughing that an Oriental Orthodox is treating his position as doctrine when responding to a question about the orthodox Church?

Huh?  Huh

"The orthodox Church"? The OOC is the orthodox Church.

But I'm guessing you meant the "Eastern Orthodox Church". Why do you assume the question was exclusively about that?
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 06:28:24 PM »

The Original Poster belongs to the "ORTHODOX CHURCH," he cited to an Article in ORTHODOX LIFE, a publication of the ORTHODOX CHURCH, that describes the standpoint of what it calls the "Holy Orthodox Church." The Original Poster wants to know the position of OUR church, and from that standpoint it appears "Oriental Orthodox = heretodox."

Arguing that Orientals are the "Orthodox Church" is like us having an argument on a "Catholic" forum over whether we Orthodox are the "Catholic Church." Sorry, there are some terminologies you have to accept.

Anyway, it is probably not worth fighting over this. Alexandria once played a big role in the Orthodox Church and I believe Orientals have alot to offer us. It is better to resolve the problems that developed at Chalcedon.

I think we could try resolving those problems based in part on what the Bible says and what the church fathers said at least 100 years before the split.
But perhaps this is a topic for another thread.

Selam.
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 06:36:57 PM »

The Original Poster belongs to the "ORTHODOX CHURCH,"

Not from what I remember. At least not anymore. I believe he is pursuing membership in ECUSA.

a publication of the ORTHODOX CHURCH, that describes the standpoint of what it calls the "Holy Orthodox Church."

That doesn't mean I have to agree with the labeling, either in its exclusion of the Orientals from orthodoxy, or even in the assumption that the Byzantine tradition is orthodox.

The Original Poster wants to know the position of OUR church,

That really is not made clear.

Arguing that Orientals are the "Orthodox Church" is like us having an argument on a "Catholic" forum over whether we Orthodox are the "Catholic Church."

No, it's not, because this is not an Eastern Orthodox forum.

Besides that, arguing that the Roman church is not the Catholic Church is a legitimate position to take, and one that I do so regularly.

Sorry, there are some terminologies you have to accept.

Not really. I do not have to accept the exclusion of the OO from "Orthodoxy". Nor do I have to accept the Romanists as Catholic.

Alexandria once played a big role in the Orthodox Church

It still does.

I think we could try resolving those problems based in part on what the Bible says and what the church fathers said at least 100 years before the split.

That's not necessary. It can be resolved on the basis of a council that occurred a mere 20 years beforehand.
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« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2010, 04:51:50 AM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.

Is this your opinion only or can you provide some sort of authortative sources for it?  I don't mean this in a confrontational way, it's an honest inquiry.  I just think it would be for the good of the discussion if you could provide us with sources for this position.

Thanks!
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« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2010, 08:13:56 AM »

I as a Catholic I belive I'm a 100% of Orthodox Wink Nulla ecclesiam salus non est, this old sentence can be a background for some speculations about salvation of heterodox. But... I think If we don't want to be condemt we shouldn't send any one to hell. Last Judgment is not our role.
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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2010, 02:27:06 PM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.

Is this your opinion only or can you provide some sort of authortative sources for it?  I don't mean this in a confrontational way, it's an honest inquiry.  I just think it would be for the good of the discussion if you could provide us with sources for this position.

Thanks!

It's not necessarily something that I have read from any synodical or Patristic source. It just seems like the logical conclusion. When we reach the eschaton, the truths of the orthodox faith will be made visible, apparent, and obvious and the only result that could possibly happen is for people to realize their truth in a way that they are capable of avoiding now. Thus, the only option will to be to accept them as the life they want to live, or to realize that they are truth but to reject them as not wanted.
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2010, 02:48:57 PM »

No, it's not, because this is not an Eastern Orthodox forum.

Well, actually the rules of the forum state that "We are a vibrant community dedicated to discussion of various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity." Not that I'd have anything against the OO. I was actually rather suprised when I read that after surfing on the forum for some time.
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« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2010, 03:01:47 PM »

No, it's not, because this is not an Eastern Orthodox forum.

Well, actually the rules of the forum state that "We are a vibrant community dedicated to discussion of various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity." Not that I'd have anything against the OO. I was actually rather suprised when I read that after surfing on the forum for some time.

I went looking around the forum before I made the statement that I did and didn't find anything. Where did you find what you are quoting?
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« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2010, 03:07:49 PM »

No, it's not, because this is not an Eastern Orthodox forum.

Well, actually the rules of the forum state that "We are a vibrant community dedicated to discussion of various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity." Not that I'd have anything against the OO. I was actually rather suprised when I read that after surfing on the forum for some time.

I went looking around the forum before I made the statement that I did and didn't find anything. Where did you find what you are quoting?

It's right here. The statement is in the first paragraph.
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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2010, 03:31:56 PM »

No, it's not, because this is not an Eastern Orthodox forum.

Well, actually the rules of the forum state that "We are a vibrant community dedicated to discussion of various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity." Not that I'd have anything against the OO. I was actually rather suprised when I read that after surfing on the forum for some time.

I went looking around the forum before I made the statement that I did and didn't find anything. Where did you find what you are quoting?

It's right here. The statement is in the first paragraph.
Not anymore. Wink
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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2010, 03:35:07 PM »

No, it's not, because this is not an Eastern Orthodox forum.

Well, actually the rules of the forum state that "We are a vibrant community dedicated to discussion of various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity." Not that I'd have anything against the OO. I was actually rather suprised when I read that after surfing on the forum for some time.

I went looking around the forum before I made the statement that I did and didn't find anything. Where did you find what you are quoting?

It's right here. The statement is in the first paragraph.
Not anymore. Wink

Did you just change it?
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2010, 03:36:17 PM »

No, it's not, because this is not an Eastern Orthodox forum.

Well, actually the rules of the forum state that "We are a vibrant community dedicated to discussion of various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity." Not that I'd have anything against the OO. I was actually rather suprised when I read that after surfing on the forum for some time.

I went looking around the forum before I made the statement that I did and didn't find anything. Where did you find what you are quoting?

It's right here. The statement is in the first paragraph.
Not anymore. Wink

Did you just change it?
It did just get changed, but not by me. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2010, 03:50:31 PM »

No, it's not, because this is not an Eastern Orthodox forum.

Well, actually the rules of the forum state that "We are a vibrant community dedicated to discussion of various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity." Not that I'd have anything against the OO. I was actually rather suprised when I read that after surfing on the forum for some time.

I went looking around the forum before I made the statement that I did and didn't find anything. Where did you find what you are quoting?

It's right here. The statement is in the first paragraph.
Not anymore. Wink

That's outrageous! Anaxios! Anathema! Tongue
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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2010, 05:56:32 PM »

Many Ukrainian Catholics refer to themselves as "Orthodox Christians." Such is the case with the big Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral here in Pittsburgh where they use Church Slavonic. They use the terminology to such an extent that it took many immigrants a long time to realize that these "Orthodox churches" were not the same as the "Orthodox Church" in Old Country. In fact, even in old country many simple peasants supposedly did not realize the change had been made because the churches did not change any of the "forms" of Orthodoxy.

So basically by changing the rule, have we made this forum equally dedicated to those churches that refer to themselves as an Orthodox Church: The Orthodox-Catholic Churches (Eastern Catholics), the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the "Orthodox Church"(Chalcedonians), vagantes, etc.

I am not totally against this, but note that there are separate boards already for those of the "Byzantine/Greek Rite". I think it would be better to say in the rules what we mean by "the Orthodox Church". Otherwise, we could get into the same petty discussion, where someone asks what the Orthodox Church teaches, and a Greek Catholic often comes in, answers, and expects us to accept that his teaching is the "Orthodox Church's" position, etc. Someone replies to him that the "Byzantine Rite" isn't Orthodox, he points to the rule's vagueness, etc., and the confusion builds. Maybe this isn't bad though. Your call.
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« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2010, 06:02:00 PM »

Many Ukrainian Catholics refer to themselves as "Orthodox Christians." Such is the case with the big Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral here in Pittsburgh where they use Church Slavonic. They use the terminology to such an extent that it took many immigrants a long time to realize that these "Orthodox churches" were not the same as the "Orthodox Church" in Old Country. In fact, even in old country many simple peasants supposedly did not realize the change had been made because the churches did not change any of the "forms" of Orthodoxy.

So basically by changing the rule, have we made this forum equally dedicated to those churches that refer to themselves as an Orthodox Church: The Orthodox-Catholic Churches (Eastern Catholics), the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the "Orthodox Church"(Chalcedonians), vagantes, etc.

I am not totally against this, but note that there are separate boards already for those of the "Byzantine/Greek Rite". I think it would be better to say in the rules what we mean by "the Orthodox Church". Otherwise, we could get into the same petty discussion, where someone asks what the Orthodox Church teaches, and a Greek Catholic often comes in, answers, and expects us to accept that his teaching is the "Orthodox Church's" position, etc. Someone replies to him that the "Byzantine Rite" isn't Orthodox, he points to the rule's vagueness, etc., and the confusion builds. Maybe this isn't bad though. Your call.


I think it should be clear that the change is indicating the inclusion of Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, but not beyond that.
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« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2010, 06:26:29 PM »

This thread is about whether the heterodox will be saved (whatever we decide heterodox to mean).  Questions or comments about the recent change to the text of the forum's mission statement should be redirected to our admins so they don't drive this thread off topic.  Thank you.
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« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2010, 07:45:42 PM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.

From various posts which you have sent to the forum I gather that you consider the Eastern Orthodox as heterodox.  Does this means that we cannot be saved?

Will we we saved only if we convert to Coptic or Armenian or Syriac Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2010, 08:11:27 PM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.

From various posts which you have sent to the forum I gather that you consider the Eastern Orthodox as heterodox.  Does this means that we cannot be saved?

Will we we saved only if we convert to Coptic or Armenian or Syriac Orthodoxy?
Do you have access to the private forum, particularly EO/OO Private Discussions?  I'm curious to read deusveritasest's reply to your question, but I fear that it may be appropriate only for one of our private discussions.
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2010, 08:24:20 PM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.

From various posts which you have sent to the forum I gather that you consider the Eastern Orthodox as heterodox.  Does this means that we cannot be saved?

Will we we saved only if we convert to Coptic or Armenian or Syriac Orthodoxy?
Do you have access to the private forum, particularly EO/OO Private Discussions?  I'm curious to know deusveritasest's reply to your question, but I fear that it may be appropriate only for our private discussions.

I have never asked to be allowed into the private forums.  I believe they are only for the thick-skinned and stout-hearted.

As to who will be saved from an Oriental view, we know that Pope Shenouda of the Copts teaches that none who are unbaptized and none who are Protestant will be saved.  His second-most bishop, Mar Bishoy, goes even further and says that Roman Catholics will not be saved.

This really hard line of the Copts is not shared at all by the Armenians.

So Chris' statement is not representative of all of the OO Churches but only of some bishops in the Coptic Church.
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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2010, 08:30:36 PM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.

From various posts which you have sent to the forum I gather that you consider the Eastern Orthodox as heterodox.  Does this means that we cannot be saved?

Will we we saved only if we convert to Coptic or Armenian or Syriac Orthodoxy?
Do you have access to the private forum, particularly EO/OO Private Discussions?  I'm curious to know deusveritasest's reply to your question, but I fear that it may be appropriate only for our private discussions.

I have never asked to be allowed into the private forums.  I believe they are only for the thick-skinned and stout-hearted.

As to who will be saved from an Oriental view, we know that Pope Shenouda of the Copts teaches that none who are unbaptized and none who are Protestant will be saved.  His second-most bishop, Mar Bishoy, goes even further and says that Roman Catholics will not be saved.

This really hard line of the Copts is not shared at all by the Armenians.

So Chris' statement is not representative of all of the OO Churches but only of some bishops in the Coptic Church.

Yes and apparently Deus is saying that only until recently did the "Oriental Orthodox Church" accept the "Orthodox Church's" baptisms as valid.
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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2010, 08:33:34 PM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.

From various posts which you have sent to the forum I gather that you consider the Eastern Orthodox as heterodox.  Does this means that we cannot be saved?

Will we we saved only if we convert to Coptic or Armenian or Syriac Orthodoxy?
Do you have access to the private forum, particularly EO/OO Private Discussions?  I'm curious to know deusveritasest's reply to your question, but I fear that it may be appropriate only for our private discussions.

I have never asked to be allowed into the private forums.  I believe they are only for the thick-skinned and stout-hearted.

As to who will be saved from an Oriental view, we know that Pope Shenouda of the Copts teaches that none who are unbaptized and none who are Protestant will be saved.  His second-most bishop, Mar Bishoy, goes even further and says that Roman Catholics will not be saved.

This really hard line of the Copts is not shared at all by the Armenians.

So Chris' statement is not representative of all of the OO Churches but only of some bishops in the Coptic Church.
You're asking for trouble, Fr. Ambrose. Wink

At this moment, we have an active thread on the EO/OO Private Discussions board where deusveritasest is laying out his case for why the Eastern Orthodox are heterodox--for obvious reasons, I will reveal no more of the thread's content than that.  If you don't have or even want access to that thread, I'm not sure I can do anything for you, but I just want you to be aware that I may need to move the answer you seek to your question there where you can't read it.  Knowing that, do you still want deusveritasest to answer your question?
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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2010, 08:44:15 PM »

The heterodox cannot be saved unless they eventually convert.

From various posts which you have sent to the forum I gather that you consider the Eastern Orthodox as heterodox.  Does this means that we cannot be saved?

Will we we saved only if we convert to Coptic or Armenian or Syriac Orthodoxy?
Do you have access to the private forum, particularly EO/OO Private Discussions?  I'm curious to know deusveritasest's reply to your question, but I fear that it may be appropriate only for our private discussions.

I have never asked to be allowed into the private forums.  I believe they are only for the thick-skinned and stout-hearted.

As to who will be saved from an Oriental view, we know that Pope Shenouda of the Copts teaches that none who are unbaptized and none who are Protestant will be saved.  His second-most bishop, Mar Bishoy, goes even further and says that Roman Catholics will not be saved.

This really hard line of the Copts is not shared at all by the Armenians.

So Chris' statement is not representative of all of the OO Churches but only of some bishops in the Coptic Church.
You're asking for trouble, Fr. Ambrose. Wink

At this moment, we have an active thread on the EO/OO Private Discussions board where deusveritasest is laying out his case for why the Eastern Orthodox are heterodox--for obvious reasons, I will reveal no more of the thread's content than that.  If you don't have or even want access to that thread, I'm not sure I can do anything for you, but I just want you to be aware that I may need to move the answer you seek to your question there where you can't read it.  Knowing that, do you still want deusveritasest to answer your question?

No, I believe that I know his answer. He is in line with Pope Shenouda and Mar Bishoy.  Actually no, he is even more strict than they are since they do not extend damnation to the 'heterodox' Eastern Orthodox.  A case of being more Coptic than the Pope.  laugh

By the way, it's such a chore to type out DeusVeritasEst and in one of his posts, he says we may call him Chris and Cyril (sp?) so I am doing that and giving my fingers a rest.
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« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2010, 07:46:06 AM »

I as a Catholic I belive I'm a 100% of Orthodox Wink Nulla ecclesiam salus non est, this old sentence can be a background for some speculations about salvation of heterodox. But... I think If we don't want to be condemt we shouldn't send any one to hell. Last Judgment is not our role.


Fr..Ambrose Brought up ,That  Few Pope's  condemed quite alot of people to hell including Their own ,plus Protestants and Orthodox For not accepting there Authorty..Even calling on the name of Jesus, won't save one ,because they have spoken they have the power... Grin

Hopfully Fr.Ambrose will post the popes that said this here.....Then Ill save it in my document Folder ,As a reminder never .... Grin

  
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« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2010, 09:01:06 AM »


Hopfully Fr.Ambrose will post the popes that said this here.....Then Ill save it in my document Folder ,As a reminder never .... Grin


Dear Stashko.

There are quotes from many Popes contained in the Word.doc which I have attached.   It seemed just too much to post on the forum....
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« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2010, 10:45:04 AM »

I know that Deus. is suggesting that..

only until recently did the "Oriental Orthodox Church" accept the "Orthodox Church's" baptisms as valid.

but it is manifestly not true. I have posted in the OO forum texts from the past 1500 years that show it is not true. In fact even in the Middle Ages the EO were considered 'nearly Orthodox' and were to be received as penitents and not as heretics.

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« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2010, 10:52:09 AM »

Many Ukrainian Catholics refer to themselves as "Orthodox Christians." Such is the case with the big Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral here in Pittsburgh where they use Church Slavonic. They use the terminology to such an extent that it took many immigrants a long time to realize that these "Orthodox churches" were not the same as the "Orthodox Church" in Old Country. In fact, even in old country many simple peasants supposedly did not realize the change had been made because the churches did not change any of the "forms" of Orthodoxy.

So basically by changing the rule, have we made this forum equally dedicated to those churches that refer to themselves as an Orthodox Church: The Orthodox-Catholic Churches (Eastern Catholics), the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the "Orthodox Church"(Chalcedonians), vagantes, etc.

I am not totally against this, but note that there are separate boards already for those of the "Byzantine/Greek Rite". I think it would be better to say in the rules what we mean by "the Orthodox Church". Otherwise, we could get into the same petty discussion, where someone asks what the Orthodox Church teaches, and a Greek Catholic often comes in, answers, and expects us to accept that his teaching is the "Orthodox Church's" position, etc. Someone replies to him that the "Byzantine Rite" isn't Orthodox, he points to the rule's vagueness, etc., and the confusion builds. Maybe this isn't bad though. Your call.



Just to be clear, there has not been any change in the forum's longstanding rules.  What was changed was an ambiguity that was leading to one poster misinterpreting the policy, even though there are other places which clearly state what the policy is and has been. This is one reason we have been discussing a revision and streamlining of the forum rules, so that such confusion will not exist.

This was a clarification I issued back in November:


To be clear, this site exists as an Orthodox Forum where people who identify themselves as Orthodox are given a place to discuss things pertinent to the Orthodox Faith.  In practicality, this means that there is a broad approach to allowing people from the Eastern Orthodox "Majority", the Eastern Orthodox "Traditionalists", and the Oriental Orthodox "Non-Chalcedonians" to post on topics relating to Orthodoxy.  It should be emphasized that it is the policy of this site that no one is required to affirm that any of the other groups are canonical or Orthodox, but rather the purpose of the broad approach is to allow broad discussion on topics that in academic discourse are labeled "Orthodox studies."

People who do not fit this broad, academic definition of Orthodox, such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, non-Christians, and others, are permitted to post here and to offer positive contributions to the site and corrections when their faith traditions are misrepresented.  They are not, however, permitted to attempt to bring people to other faiths.

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Eastern Rite Catholics may have called themselves Orthodox for some time but regardless of nomenclature, they are not recognized by the Orthodox as Orthodox.  Vagantes are likewise not recognized by the Orthodox as Orthodox.  With the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates, Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists, and Oriental Orthodox/Non-Chalcedonians, there are varying degrees of opinion between the three groups, such that a broad discussion forum about Orthodoxy would lead to discussion on topics concerning all three groups, and we wanted to create a place where all three would be welcome to post, within the limits of civil discourse.  We have no interest in broadening the scope to include Eastern Catholics, who are in submission to the Pope and have adopted many Roman Catholic innovations, or vagantes, who have no way of being measured or quantified.  We have to draw the line somewhere, and that is how we have chosen to draw it.  For discussion of Eastern Rite Catholicism, one could see the forum at http://www.byzcath.org.

Naturally, Byzantine Catholics and vagantes are welcome to post here, but they have to recognize that they are on an Orthodox forum, which does not accept that they are "Orthodox in communion with Rome."  Latin Catholics and Protestants and anyone else of good will is also welcome to post, as long as they understand the purpose of the forum and the boundaries.

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2010, 03:48:35 PM »

Quote
Vagantes are likewise not recognized by the Orthodox as Orthodox.  With the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates, Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists, and Oriental Orthodox/Non-Chalcedonians, there are varying degrees of opinion between the three groups [on whether the three are Orthodox]

Does this mean that there are varying opinions inside the Orthodox Patriarchates and Orientals whether Old Calendarists out of communion with the Orthodox Patriarchates are vagante?

Sorry if it is a hard question.
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« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2010, 04:41:27 PM »

Quote
Vagantes are likewise not recognized by the Orthodox as Orthodox.  With the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates, Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists, and Oriental Orthodox/Non-Chalcedonians, there are varying degrees of opinion between the three groups [on whether the three are Orthodox]

Does this mean that there are varying opinions inside the Orthodox Patriarchates and Orientals whether Old Calendarists out of communion with the Orthodox Patriarchates are vagante?

Sorry if it is a hard question.

No serious person considers us vagante, because vaganteism and Old Calendarism have nothing in common.  But the question as to whether people believe we are Orthodox or graceless schismatics varies from local Church to local Church, with the majority position being either that we are outright schismatics or at least uncanonical.  The EP and the Church of Greece treat us as graceless schismatics--"rassaphore-wearing laymen" is a favorite term--while the JP and the ROCOR for example have always treated us as Orthodox.  We don't rely on outside opinions to bolster our claims though; that is something a vagante would do.  If we based our existence on what other people thought about us, we really wouldn't have a very good claim to be right.
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« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2010, 04:55:18 PM »

Father Anastasios,

Is there a variety of views within the Old Calendar communities in regard to the Oriental Orthodox communion, or do all take an entirely negative view of any conversations which might take place.

Father Peter
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« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2010, 04:58:19 PM »

To no one in particular:

A useful article that speaks to EO views of other Christian groups & their sacraments:

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/pheidas_limits_2.html
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« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2010, 05:08:48 PM »

Does this mean that there are varying opinions inside the Orthodox Patriarchates and Orientals whether Old Calendarists out of communion with the Orthodox Patriarchates are vagante?

Sorry if it is a hard question.

It would be difficult to apply the commonly-used definitions or examples of vagante bishops to the Old Calendarists.  Usually vagante jurisdictions are set up around vagante bishops - who are "ordained" outside of the existing Orthodox ecclesiastical structure, or who trace their roots dubiously to someone within the ecclesiastical structure but who split off from that structure.  99% of vagante groups operate (a) with 2 or fewer hierarchs, (b) out of communion even with other vagante groups, and (c) under the pretense that all others have fallen away except their small number.  They exist essentially as the Orthodox equivalent of a megachurch-like "cult of personality" - groups formed around one person who claims to be the only true bishop around.

The Old Calendarist jurisdictions arose out of concern for the fidelity of the Church to its tradition following the entry of various Orthodox jurisdictions into dialogue with the Western Christian churches and the changing of the ecclesiastical calendar to the Revised Julian.  Unlike the vagante groups, who are not taken seriously by anyone, the Old Calendarists found themselves faced with two reactions: disapproval (and frequent persecution) within the countries that they arose in, and sympathy from the other Old Calendar jurisdictions who remained in communion with the New Calendar jurisdictions.  The Old Calendarist jurisdictions operate with a considerable number of clergy (sizable numbers of both hierarchs & priests), a well-developed missionary outreach in certain areas, and the desire to correct the errors of the other Churches in order to re-unite Orthodoxy (rather than merely maintain the status quo) - which they hope to accomplish through their internet outreach, and their continued presence within the public eye in the countries where the Church has adopted the New Calendar.
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