Author Topic: Gothic, anyone?  (Read 1540 times)

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Offline DanM

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Gothic, anyone?
« on: January 02, 2014, 10:44:31 AM »
So I have been reviewing Gothic.  Below is Mt. 5.19 in Gothic etc.  Can anyone tell me why Wulfilas would translate λύσῃ and ποιήσῃ with verbs in the indicative, but the aor. subj. verbs following them in the subj.?

    iþ saei nu gatairiþ aina anabusne þizo minnistono jah laisjai swa mans, minnista haitada in þiudangardjai himine; iþ saei taujiþ jah laisjai swa, sah mikils haitada in þiudangardjai himine.
    ὃς ἐὰν οὖν λύσῃ μίαν τῶν ἐντολῶν τούτων τῶν ἐλαχίστων καὶ διδάξῃ οὕτως τοὺς ἀνθρώπους, ἐλάχιστος κληθήσεται ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν: ὃς δ' ἂν ποιήσῃ καὶ διδάξῃ, οὗτος μέγας κληθήσεται ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν.
    Qui ergo solverit unum de mandatis istis minimis, et docuerit sic homines, minimus vocabitur in regno cælorum : qui autem fecerit et docuerit, hic magnus vocabitur in regno cælorum.

Offline sestir

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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2020, 12:03:15 PM »
I saw this question when I registered in 2015 and thought I would answer it when I had learnt enough Mœsogothic to feel reasonably sure. I think you are right. The translator could start "Ïþ jabai ..." or just use subjunctive to match the Alexandrian & Byz-majority Greek. It is probably a translation of an exemplar with a different reading than the one in today's critical editions.

The reading is similar to that of Codex Bezae:

ὀς ουν λυσει μιαν των εντολων τουτων ελαχιστων και διδαξη τους ανθρωπους ελαχιστος κληθησεται εν τη βασιλεια των ουρανων — C. Bezae Greekcntr transcription

I think λυσει is future indicative.

It is perhaps even more similar to the Sinaitic Palimpsest:

ܘܡܢ ܕܢܫܪܐ ܚܕ ܡܢ ܦܘܩ̈ܕܢܐ ܗ̈ܠܝܢ ܙܥܘܪܐ ܘܢܠܦ ܗܟܢܐ ܠܒܢ̈ܝ ܐܢܫܐ ܒܨܝܪܐ ܢܬܩܪܐ ܒܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܫܡܝܐ

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2020, 04:50:55 PM »
That's some hardcore language nerdiness. I like it.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline sestir

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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2020, 04:13:30 PM »
Thanks for the kind words of encouragement!  ;D

There seems to exist (maybe) a church which calls itself Gothic and Orthodox, though it defines itself much in opposition to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Wikipedia article
Swedish lang web site (?)

I hope I find time to visit them when I can afford unnecessary journeys.

Offline iohanne

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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2020, 05:55:56 PM »
It is perhaps even more similar to the Sinaitic Palimpsest:

ܘܡܢ ܕܢܫܪܐ ܚܕ ܡܢ ܦܘܩ̈ܕܢܐ ܗ̈ܠܝܢ ܙܥܘܪܐ ܘܢܠܦ ܗܟܢܐ ܠܒܢ̈ܝ ܐܢܫܐ ܒܨܝܪܐ ܢܬܩܪܐ ܒܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܫܡܝܐ

Sestir, you are familiar with Syriac?  I was wondering if anyone on these forums was familiar with this liturgical language, being so important as a language of orthodox Christians, once upon a time, in the Middle East. 

Offline sestir

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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2020, 07:55:54 PM »
Sestir, you are familiar with Syriac?

That would be a stretch to say. ^^
When people speak Classical Syriac (or Aramaic or modern varieties), I don't understand a word (yet). In this case, I compared Peshitta, the Curetonian ms and the Sinaitic Palimpsest and could see that the conjunctions in the beginning of the verse in the Sinaitic P. matched the Gothic variant better than the others. I relied on dukhrana.com's parsing tool to see that the first verb followed the paradigm peal (which is the usual active indicative) and the second verb followed the paradigm pael. Then I looked in a grammar (by Takamitsu Muraoka) to see if the difference between them correspond to indicative vs subjunctive, and it said, simply: "The semantic or functional opposition between these six patterns is still a matter of debate." So I would have to learn to distinguish between the verb paradigms and read an amount of texts before I could say exactly how similar they are.

I was wondering if anyone on these forums was familiar with this liturgical language, being so important as a language of orthodox Christians, once upon a time, in the Middle East.

Yes, there are probably several persons on this forum who knows Classical Syriac. I have found MalpanaGiwargis' comments particularily reliable and edifying. Ialmisry seems to know a lot too http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28520.msg449853.html#msg449853

Offline iohanne

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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2020, 10:18:20 AM »
Fascinating!  Thank you for your informative reply! 

I have used dukhrana.com's parsing tool before, and yes, it is quite helpful, although that list you provided me from that other thread is superb.  I shall be spending my evening after work perusing through it all.   :)

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2020, 12:55:04 PM »
Thank you for the kind comment, sestir.

iohanne, I have a PhD in Syriac; my dissertation work was on the penitential hymns (onyatha) of Giwargis Warda, a medieval hymnographer of the Church of the East. My username is a reference to him.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2020, 01:44:32 PM »
It is perhaps even more similar to the Sinaitic Palimpsest:

ܘܡܢ ܕܢܫܪܐ ܚܕ ܡܢ ܦܘܩ̈ܕܢܐ ܗ̈ܠܝܢ ܙܥܘܪܐ ܘܢܠܦ ܗܟܢܐ ܠܒܢ̈ܝ ܐܢܫܐ ܒܨܝܪܐ ܢܬܩܪܐ ܒܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܫܡܝܐ

Sestir, you are familiar with Syriac?  I was wondering if anyone on these forums was familiar with this liturgical language, being so important as a language of orthodox Christians, once upon a time, in the Middle East.
Mor Ephrem knows Syriac. Don't let him get too humble over it!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 01:45:01 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2020, 03:01:46 PM »
It is perhaps even more similar to the Sinaitic Palimpsest:

ܘܡܢ ܕܢܫܪܐ ܚܕ ܡܢ ܦܘܩ̈ܕܢܐ ܗ̈ܠܝܢ ܙܥܘܪܐ ܘܢܠܦ ܗܟܢܐ ܠܒܢ̈ܝ ܐܢܫܐ ܒܨܝܪܐ ܢܬܩܪܐ ܒܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܫܡܝܐ

Sestir, you are familiar with Syriac?  I was wondering if anyone on these forums was familiar with this liturgical language, being so important as a language of orthodox Christians, once upon a time, in the Middle East.
Mor Ephrem knows Syriac. Don't let him get too humble over it!

Our humility defers to MalpanaGiwargis, who certainly is more capable than our modesty. 
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I hail Mor Ephrem as our Secretary General.

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Offline biro

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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2020, 04:14:46 PM »
Thank you for the kind comment, sestir.

iohanne, I have a PhD in Syriac; my dissertation work was on the penitential hymns (onyatha) of Giwargis Warda, a medieval hymnographer of the Church of the East. My username is a reference to him.

That's wonderful.
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Offline sestir

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Re: Gothic, anyone?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2020, 05:13:53 AM »
Don't let him get too humble over it!

He was too fast, and my laptop had run out of battery, so I couldn't stop him. ;_;
I hope we get another chance.

--

Apparently, Mozilla (the web browser), at least on MacOS Catalina, changes text that is written or pasted into forms from Estrangela script to Serta. It also does some other spooky things like displaying the IPA symbol for uvular fricative mirrored, and in a text written in the Gothic Wulfilan alphabet, it displays all characters right but in its default font k and h looks like Latin k and h.

--

Turns out this forum doesn't support the second half pane of UTF-8, which means we cannot type wulfilan in our posts. In MySQL-language this is called 'utf8mb4', whereas 'utf8' is not full UTF-8 but only half of it.