Author Topic: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation  (Read 1818 times)

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Offline raffisx

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Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« on: January 01, 2014, 06:44:29 PM »
Good Morning brothers and sisters in faith blessings to all and a happy new year

Can i please get confirmation if the following is correct ?

http://peopleofar.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/the-armenian-name-of-the-lord/


regards

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2014, 08:18:06 PM »
The article is correct.

"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2014, 08:18:52 PM »
The only thing I've ever heard before, and to which I would give credibility, is the explanation about է ("eh") meaning "He is."  That's what I've been told by priests as the reason why it's above the altar.  

The fact that it is the seventh letter, as far as I know, has nothing to do with why it is on top of the altar, although it is nice that this letter is put seventh in the alphabet.  It could even be that St. Mesrob made it seventh for the reason that "eh" in Armenian means "He is."  

And the thing about its supposed Mithraic origins is something I have never heard. 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 08:21:47 PM by Salpy »

Offline raffisx

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2014, 08:24:40 PM »
Merci for your comments and confirmation .

blessings to you both .

Raffi

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2014, 08:32:30 PM »
The only thing I've ever heard before, and to which I would give credibility, is the explanation about է ("eh") meaning "He is."  That's what I've been told by priests as the reason why it's above the altar.  

The fact that it is the seventh letter, as far as I know, has nothing to do with why it is on top of the altar, although it is nice that this letter is put seventh in the alphabet.  It could even be that St. Mesrob made it seventh for the reason that "eh" in Armenian means "He is."  

And the thing about its supposed Mithraic origins is something I have never heard.  

The Mithraic reference was new to me as well. I have been told by serveral priests that Saint Mesrob placed the letter in the seventh position because the number seven represents perfection.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 08:33:04 PM by Brigidsboy »
"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2014, 08:43:04 PM »
Thanks.  I suspected that, but I didn't know for sure.   :) 

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2014, 09:08:54 PM »
For those who haven't seen an Armenian altar, this is what we are talking about:



http://www.azad-hye.net/photos/viewalbumpicture.asp?al=38&pi=6



And this is the image from the above linked article:



Not all Armenian altars have it, but it's pretty common.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 09:14:02 PM by Salpy »

Offline raffisx

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2014, 10:05:26 PM »
Ok im going to ask a silly question but would it have to do anything with the Symbol "G" we see in the Masonic inscription as it is also the 7th letter in the Alphabet .

the reason i ask is some Armenian churches have them and some don't as stated by Salpy . and to open up conversation up to another level is the masonic order accepted by the church ? im guessing some priests and bishops will be Masons , and will being a mason make you void of being a christian and follower of Lord Jesus Christ.

regards

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2014, 11:42:14 PM »
Ok im going to ask a silly question but would it have to do anything with the Symbol "G" we see in the Masonic inscription as it is also the 7th letter in the Alphabet .

G is the seventh letter in the English alphabet, but I don't think there are any religious or mystical reasons behind that.  Is it used in Masonic insignia?  If so, I don't know the Masons' reasoning behind it, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with the Armenian use of Է.

Quote
the reason i ask is some Armenian churches have them and some don't as stated by Salpy .

I don't think there is any canon requiring the placement of Է above the altar.  I think whether a church has it or not depends on how the priest and congregation want to decorate their church.

Quote
and to open up conversation up to another level is the masonic order accepted by the church ? im guessing some priests and bishops will be Masons , and will being a mason make you void of being a christian and follower of Lord Jesus Christ.

regards

My understanding is that the Church frowns on membership in that organization.  In fact, I think the Knights of Vartan was set up as an alternative organization for Armenian men to belong to, so they wouldn't feel the need to belong to the Masons.

There probably are some Armenians who belong to the Masons anyway, but I don't know of any clergy who do.  I would think that would not be allowed.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2014, 02:02:21 AM »
Ok im going to ask a silly question but would it have to do anything with the Symbol "G" we see in the Masonic inscription as it is also the 7th letter in the Alphabet .

G is the seventh letter in the English alphabet, but I don't think there are any religious or mystical reasons behind that.  

God.   :o
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 02:02:48 AM by Mor Ephrem »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2014, 02:05:54 AM »
OK.  Cool.   :)

Offline raffisx

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2014, 02:47:55 AM »
Ok im going to ask a silly question but would it have to do anything with the Symbol "G" we see in the Masonic inscription as it is also the 7th letter in the Alphabet .

G is the seventh letter in the English alphabet, but I don't think there are any religious or mystical reasons behind that.  

God.   :o

yes but which GOD , a mason once told me as long as you believe in a supreme being , Christian GOD , SATAN, THE PINK PANTHER and one of my favorite the FLINTSTONES .

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2014, 02:52:13 AM »
Which is why the Church doesn't want people to join that group. 

Offline Aram

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2014, 06:53:44 PM »
My understanding is that the Church frowns on membership in that organization.  In fact, I think the Knights of Vartan was set up as an alternative organization for Armenian men to belong to, so they wouldn't feel the need to belong to the Masons.

There probably are some Armenians who belong to the Masons anyway, but I don't know of any clergy who do.  I would think that would not be allowed.
Both my father and grandfather were prominent members of the KoV, but I know of no connection between anti-Masonry and the founding of KoV. In fact, it borrows rather heavily from Masonry on a structural and ritual level. The major draw of the Knights is the fact that it draws from all parts of the Armenian community. Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox alike are free to join, and actually do. It also draws from all the political parties, too. It's one of the few Armenian organizations for which that is true.

I also know of many Armenians who are proud Masons. The Armenian Church, to my knowledge, is not as vitriolically anti-Masonic as the EO churches have become in America in recent decades.

Offline Aram

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2014, 06:56:49 PM »
Which is why the Church doesn't want people to join that group. 
If they don't, there hasn't been any official statement from anyone saying so.

Offline raffisx

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2014, 07:40:04 PM »
Thanks Aram

But you can only choose one . GOD or the Masonic Hierarchy , if you are a follower of the Christian GOD then you follow his teachings through Jesus Christ and his saints if you are a Mason then you are free to follow the masonic rituals and rights but have no place in the Church .

We must be strict on this matters . GOD is mighty through his only begotten Son , so unless the masonic order follows and teaches Orthodoxy then it will be seen and heresy and outcasted cult .

I have nothing against the Masons i know a few just like i know a few Atheists they can practice what they want but have no place in our Church or our lives . as for Knights of Vartan as long as they don't stray from the church and its teachings it's fine .

Money and Power will not bring you closer to GOD . total devotion to Christ will only bring you closer to GOD

When one studies Masonic literature, it is quite evident that there are definite conflicts between Christianity and Freemasonry.  James 5:12 informs us that “about all things, brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by earth, neither by any other oath.”  But the first thing that the person entering Masonry does is to take an oath, which is in violation of God’s Word.  This is the first area of conflict between Christianity and Masons.

regards and blessings
Raffi

« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 07:44:37 PM by raffisx »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2014, 09:23:11 PM »
Which is why the Church doesn't want people to join that group. 
If they don't, there hasn't been any official statement from anyone saying so.

There may or may not be an official statement, but where I am it is discouraged.  In fact, something happened over here in Los Angeles concerning the Masons and HH Karekin I:

Back in the Cold War days, His Holiness was able to pay a rare visit to the US.  For his visit to LA, they rented the Masonic Hall, since at the time that was the biggest hall in the area, and there was no church big enough then to hold the crowds they were expecting.  So when the day and time arrived, they drove HH to the hall.  His Holiness looked up at the building and saw the Masonic symbols.  He refused to get out of the car.  People pleaded with him, tried to explain the situation to him, etc. but he refused to get out of the car.  Finally, they had to do a last minute change and hold the liturgy at St. James, which at the time was the largest church in the area.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2014, 09:33:22 PM »
My understanding is that the Church frowns on membership in that organization.  In fact, I think the Knights of Vartan was set up as an alternative organization for Armenian men to belong to, so they wouldn't feel the need to belong to the Masons.

There probably are some Armenians who belong to the Masons anyway, but I don't know of any clergy who do.  I would think that would not be allowed.
Both my father and grandfather were prominent members of the KoV, but I know of no connection between anti-Masonry and the founding of KoV. In fact, it borrows rather heavily from Masonry on a structural and ritual level. The major draw of the Knights is the fact that it draws from all parts of the Armenian community. Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox alike are free to join, and actually do. It also draws from all the political parties, too. It's one of the few Armenian organizations for which that is true.

My grandpa was a Knight of Vartan too.  My understanding is that it was supposed to be the Armenian equivalent of the Knights of Columbus.  Over here, it is loosely associated with the church, in as much as it has its meetings in the church hall, etc.  It's not a strictly religious organization, though.  I've never heard of Protestants and Catholics joining, although I guess that's possible.  It's also possible that things are just different where I am compared to where you are.   :)

Quote
I also know of many Armenians who are proud Masons. The Armenian Church, to my knowledge, is not as vitriolically anti-Masonic as the EO churches have become in America in recent decades.

Again, it could just be that things are different where I am.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2014, 09:37:59 PM »
Thanks Aram

But you can only choose one . GOD or the Masonic Hierarchy , if you are a follower of the Christian GOD then you follow his teachings through Jesus Christ and his saints if you are a Mason then you are free to follow the masonic rituals and rights but have no place in the Church .

We must be strict on this matters . GOD is mighty through his only begotten Son , so unless the masonic order follows and teaches Orthodoxy then it will be seen and heresy and outcasted cult .

I have nothing against the Masons i know a few just like i know a few Atheists they can practice what they want but have no place in our Church or our lives . as for Knights of Vartan as long as they don't stray from the church and its teachings it's fine .

Money and Power will not bring you closer to GOD . total devotion to Christ will only bring you closer to GOD

When one studies Masonic literature, it is quite evident that there are definite conflicts between Christianity and Freemasonry.  James 5:12 informs us that “about all things, brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by earth, neither by any other oath.”  But the first thing that the person entering Masonry does is to take an oath, which is in violation of God’s Word.  This is the first area of conflict between Christianity and Masons.

regards and blessings
Raffi



It's not just that they take oaths;  they also have a relativist view of God.  As you indicated, they teach that it is OK to believe in any higher being.  And I think they put Christ on the same level as Moses and Mohammed.  An Armenian Apostolic Christian has no business belonging to such an organization.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 09:39:54 PM by Salpy »

Offline raffisx

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2014, 09:50:07 PM »
Which is why the Church doesn't want people to join that group. 
If they don't, there hasn't been any official statement from anyone saying so.

There may or may not be an official statement, but where I am it is discouraged.  In fact, something happened over here in Los Angeles concerning the Masons and HH Karekin I:

Back in the Cold War days, His Holiness was able to pay a rare visit to the US.  For his visit to LA, they rented the Masonic Hall, since at the time that was the biggest hall in the area, and there was no church big enough then to hold the crowds they were expecting.  So when the day and time arrived, they drove HH to the hall.  His Holiness looked up at the building and saw the Masonic symbols.  He refused to get out of the car.  People pleaded with him, tried to explain the situation to him, etc. but he refused to get out of the car.  Finally, they had to do a last minute change and hold the liturgy at St. James, which at the time was the largest church in the area.

The Armenians in Sydney just bought out a masonic hall for our second Church . and i heard the person who sold it to the church was an Armenian . I'm going to question my church on this next time i see the archbishop.

regards

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2014, 09:53:37 PM »
My grandpa was a Knight of Vartan too.  My understanding is that it was supposed to be the Armenian equivalent of the Knights of Columbus. 

Do they have hats, gloves, and swords like the KoC?  :)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2014, 10:14:12 PM »
I think so, but Aram could probably tell you more about that than I can.  I never went to a meeting with my grandpa, and his was the last generation in my family that belonged to the organization.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2014, 10:18:20 PM »
The Armenians in Sydney just bought out a masonic hall for our second Church . and i heard the person who sold it to the church was an Armenian . I'm going to question my church on this next time i see the archbishop.

regards

I don't think there is a problem with buying a masonic building and transforming it into a Christian church.  As soon as it is consecrated, it will be a strictly Christian building.

As far as there being Armenians who are Masons, I am sure they exist.  Heck, there are even Armenian Buddhists:

http://www.undv.org/vesak2011/pdf/Armenia%20Hrant%20Dandurov.pdf

That doesn't mean the Church approves of it.  It's not like the Church can control what individuals do, or what they come to believe in.  All she can do is point to Christ.  Whether we choose to follow Him is up to us.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2014, 10:22:47 PM »
My understanding is that the Church frowns on membership in that organization.  In fact, I think the Knights of Vartan was set up as an alternative organization for Armenian men to belong to, so they wouldn't feel the need to belong to the Masons.

There probably are some Armenians who belong to the Masons anyway, but I don't know of any clergy who do.  I would think that would not be allowed.
Both my father and grandfather were prominent members of the KoV, but I know of no connection between anti-Masonry and the founding of KoV. In fact, it borrows rather heavily from Masonry on a structural and ritual level. The major draw of the Knights is the fact that it draws from all parts of the Armenian community. Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox alike are free to join, and actually do. It also draws from all the political parties, too. It's one of the few Armenian organizations for which that is true.

I also know of many Armenians who are proud Masons. The Armenian Church, to my knowledge, is not as vitriolically anti-Masonic as the EO churches have become in America in recent decades.
The opposition of the EO Church in America to the Masons is nothing compared to the opposition to it in Europe, especially in the Balkans.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2014, 10:24:09 PM »
I don't think there is a problem with buying a masonic building and transforming it into a Christian church.  As soon as it is consecrated, it will be a strictly Christian building.

We have at least one church in America that was formerly a Masonic temple.  It was thoroughly consecrated.  The only remnant of its former life is the original cornerstone. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2014, 10:47:12 PM »
My understanding is that the Church frowns on membership in that organization.  In fact, I think the Knights of Vartan was set up as an alternative organization for Armenian men to belong to, so they wouldn't feel the need to belong to the Masons.

There probably are some Armenians who belong to the Masons anyway, but I don't know of any clergy who do.  I would think that would not be allowed.
Both my father and grandfather were prominent members of the KoV, but I know of no connection between anti-Masonry and the founding of KoV. In fact, it borrows rather heavily from Masonry on a structural and ritual level. The major draw of the Knights is the fact that it draws from all parts of the Armenian community. Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox alike are free to join, and actually do. It also draws from all the political parties, too. It's one of the few Armenian organizations for which that is true.

I also know of many Armenians who are proud Masons. The Armenian Church, to my knowledge, is not as vitriolically anti-Masonic as the EO churches have become in America in recent decades.
The opposition of the EO Church in America to the Masons is nothing compared to the opposition to it in Europe, especially in the Balkans.

To clarify my earlier response to Aram, I would agree that the Armenian Church has not been as vocal in its opposition to the Masons as the EO Church; however, where I am, it is disapproved of.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2014, 12:13:11 AM »
Which is why the Church doesn't want people to join that group.  
If they don't, there hasn't been any official statement from anyone saying so.

There may or may not be an official statement, but where I am it is discouraged.  In fact, something happened over here in Los Angeles concerning the Masons and HH Karekin I:

Back in the Cold War days, His Holiness was able to pay a rare visit to the US.  For his visit to LA, they rented the Masonic Hall, since at the time that was the biggest hall in the area, and there was no church big enough then to hold the crowds they were expecting.  So when the day and time arrived, they drove HH to the hall.  His Holiness looked up at the building and saw the Masonic symbols.  He refused to get out of the car.  People pleaded with him, tried to explain the situation to him, etc. but he refused to get out of the car.  Finally, they had to do a last minute change and hold the liturgy at St. James, which at the time was the largest church in the area.

Yikes.  He wasn't Karekin I.  He was Vazken I.  I'm getting my Catholicoi mixed up. :o
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 12:18:12 AM by Salpy »

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2014, 12:18:57 AM »
Which is why the Church doesn't want people to join that group. 
If they don't, there hasn't been any official statement from anyone saying so.

There may or may not be an official statement, but where I am it is discouraged.  In fact, something happened over here in Los Angeles concerning the Masons and HH Karekin I:

Back in the Cold War days, His Holiness was able to pay a rare visit to the US.  For his visit to LA, they rented the Masonic Hall, since at the time that was the biggest hall in the area, and there was no church big enough then to hold the crowds they were expecting.  So when the day and time arrived, they drove HH to the hall.  His Holiness looked up at the building and saw the Masonic symbols.  He refused to get out of the car.  People pleaded with him, tried to explain the situation to him, etc. but he refused to get out of the car.  Finally, they had to do a last minute change and hold the liturgy at St. James, which at the time was the largest church in the area.

Yikes.  He wasn't Karekin I.  He was Vasken I.  I'm getting my Catholicoi mixed up. :o


I was sure you meant H.H. Vazken. There were larger churches available by H.H. Karekin's visit.  :)
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2014, 12:20:19 AM »
Yeah, I think this happened during the early 1960's.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 12:23:15 AM by Salpy »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Lords Name in Armenian "EH" need confirmation
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2014, 01:25:46 AM »
And there really are Armenian Masons:

http://www.glofarmenia.org/en/

 :o