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Author Topic: what is the orthodox view on Bolsheviks ?  (Read 2864 times) Average Rating: 0
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fiftybmg
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« on: March 07, 2005, 06:05:32 AM »

I've done a lot of reading about the Russian Revolution these last few months.

What information does our Church have regarding the Bolsheviks ? It is recorded that 90% of the Bolshevik leadership were Jews, [ these were clearly identifiable as wholly or partly so , Lenin was identified as part Jewish in recent times ]  most from the Pale, and that while Orthodox churches were wantonly destroyed, it was forbidden by law to persecute Jews or desecrate synagogues [ then and now in Russia ].

Do our church records reflect this, and is there a current message regarding the threat of the Bolshevik descendants on our Church today ?

Thank You
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Kolya
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2005, 07:55:40 AM »

Hi Savva,

You can be quite sure the Church knows who was behind the 1917 Revolution.
Suffice it to say, this is a sensitive topic and Those Times are past. I do not think opening old wounds is right or beneficial to this forum. It will degenerate into a socio/political debate, and the last thing we want is mud-slinging at any member of our present global community. ( They wern't around then anyway, and can not be held responsible now for that.)

All I will say is that the Church knows "where it's at", and it is quite easy to research these things for one's self on the Internet.
The Church in Russia today believes in Religious Freedom, and wants no part in any 'retribution' that some individuals may want to mete out.

I will say this though. Many prominent Ascetics in Russia in the 20's and 30's of the 20th Century blamed the Slaying of the Tsar on the "Sinfulness" of the people of Russia, and that they also called the Russian people to repentance. It was said the 'curse' laid on Russia would be lifted once the Royal Family had been Sainted, which occured in 2000 if my memory serves me correctly. (About August 2000)
The "Blot" on the consience of the Russian People seems now to have been lifted, and the Church is growing rapidly. as it should.

Regards

Kolya
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2005, 06:51:42 AM »

My objective is not to illicit opinions, but rather to gather facts, and disseminate them, and thereby educate. Opinions are not useful for education, only for propaganda. It is now a known historical fact that the Bolsheviks and the Marxists were of the same objective. Their objective was the destabilisation and destruction of the old order, which took 77 years. This is also fact. Why the old order was destroyed I do not know, because no historical fact ever written has come to my attention on the matter. Does the Church know ? History does tell us that the financiers of those destructions profited enormously.

The discourse of historical fact is no occasion for mud-slinging or opening wounds, unless one is emotionally predispositioned, in which case one should not study history. We need to learn the facts from history, and disseminate them widely, using all means at our disposal, because the survival of the Church depends on it. This we learn from history too, that succeeding generations do not retain the memories of the preceding. The Church is the sole custodian of our heritage, and our memories are part of that. The Church is eternal, was before we were, and will be after we are. Lessons learned must be taught, or what is the purpose of experience ?

Bear in mind that in our times, today even, nations are being destroyed for profit, and the destroyer says "you are with us or against us". Tomorrow, we will be asked to bow down, and as in the 1940's, we will say NO. Then our nation will be the one burning. At least let us be educated as to who is doing the burning, and why. Or better still, through education, let our people guard their families, their Church and themselves, so when the next wave of destruction sweeps over the world, it does not destroy us.

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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2005, 09:37:37 AM »

OK, you want to discuss this. ESHLON notwithstanding?

Russia was only the experiment. The 'real thing' still lies ahead. And if you've studied Orthodox Estioligy (Spelling - you know what I mean), you'll know that we are now in the "half hour of silence" in heaven as foretold in Revelation. The storm of Anti-christ will soon appear. We don't know when of course, but it's coming. And it will be the whole world this time round, not just Russia.

One has to be wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove in this. Knowledge of what the enemy of souls is up to is esential, and everyone should aquaint themselves with the facts, as you seem to have done. You would know that I'm speaking of the NWO too.

How they all fit together though is still a mystery. It is wise just to keep a good look out.

Kolya 
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2005, 11:47:16 AM »

Hi all!

I present the following:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia_and_Soviet_Union#Jews_and_Bolshevism:

Quote
Many members of the Bolshevik party were Jewish, especially in the leadership of the party. The idea of overthrowing the Tsarist regime was attractive to many members of the Jewish intelligentsia because of the oppression of non-Russian nations within the Russian Empire. For much the same reason, many other non-Russians, notably Latvians or Poles, were disproportionately represented in the party leadership. This was abused by the Tsarist secret police, the Okhranka, which used anti-Semitism and xenophobia as a weapon against the party.

The Jewish origins of some of leading Bolsheviks and their support for a policy of promoting international proletarian revolution - most notably in the case of Trotsky -led many enemies of Bolshevism to draw a picture of Communism as a political idea pursued to benefit Jewish interests. In Germany, the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler used this theory to paint a picture of a supposed "Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy". Even today, many anti-Semites continue to promote the idea of a link between Judaism and Communism. However, the concept that an entire ethnic group can be held responsible for the actions of a few is very widely rejected. The Bolsheviks seem to have been personally rather atheistic and internationalistic, more concerned with the plight of the working class in general rather than with any ethnicity or religious group. (See concepts of proletarian internationalism, bourgeois nationalism).

Most of the Jewish "Old Bolsheviks", along with their Gentile counterparts, were purged by Stalin during the 1930s. However, Stalin's ambitions to undertake a more general purge of "rootless cosmopolitans" (a euphemism for Jews), expressed in the preparation of the trial of the Doctors' plot, were never realised due to his death in 1953.

While there were a significant number of Jews in the Bolshevik Party the percentage of Jewish party members among the rival Mensheviks was much higher. The vast majority of Russia's Jews weren't in any political party.

From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/russia.html#l:

Quote
As the borders of Soviet Russia sharpened, large numbers of Jews who had previously been under Russian control found themselves outside of the Soviet Empire. Only about 2,500,000 Jews remained under Soviet control. The Bolsheviks rejected anti-Semitism and loosened civil restrictions on the Jews. Under the influence of influential assimilated Jews, the Bolsheviks began to see the assimilation of the Jews as the only solution to “the Jewish problem.” Jewish nationalist expressions, be they expressions of the Jewish religion or Zionism, were clamped down upon. While the Bolshevik leaders clamped down on Jewish separatism their fight against anti-Semitism gained them wide support among the Jewish masses. Jewish youth enthusiastically joined the Red Army (founded by a Jew, Leon Trotsky). In 1926, Jews made up 4.4% of the officers in the Red Army (more than twice their ratio in the general population). Jewish elites also took part in the administrative rebuilding of the country. While a small but influential group of Jews helped rebuild Russia, the Socialist Economic Policies weakened the masses. The Bolsheviks also set up a special “Jewish section” in government in response to the fact that millions of Jews were attached to the Jewish religion and Hebrew language (at least as a language of prayer and Judaism). The Communists put secular assimilationist Jews in charge in order to foster hatred towards the Jewish religion, Hebrew, and Zionism, though temporarily allowing its replacement with secular Yiddish culture. In August 1919, Jewish communities were dissolved and properties confiscated. Traditional institutions of Jewish education and culture, such as yeshivot and cheder, were shut down. Hebrew study was prohibited and it became forbidden to print Jewish books. In 1928, it was forbidden to even print religious books and Jewish calendars. In 1927, Rabbi J. Schneerson, the leader of Habad Hasidism, was imprisoned and expelled from Russia. Yet “underground” religious activity still continued, though after World War II, hundreds of Hasidism left Russia to Eretz Yisrael. The growing restrictions on Jewish religious life strengthened Zionism.

Yiddish was also strengthened by the forming of a “Jewish proletariat culture.” A Yiddish press and Yiddish newspapers were established, though the writing of Yiddish was phoneticized into Russian script so as to cut its ties with Hebrew print. Russians granted Yiddish official status in that tribunals were held in Yiddish and significant resources were invested in the development of Yiddish school systems. After awhile, however, Jewish parents rebelled against these schools whose only connections to Jewish culture was a few lines of Yiddish literature and which taught anti-religious sentiment. As the quality of the schools declined (weak to begin with), they began to disappear.

The disappearance of Yiddish was replaced by cultural assimilation. Jewish children spoke Russian and attended Russian schools. Mixed marriage became common. Jews began to play an important role in Russian cultural life.

During World War II, much of the attempts to persecute the Jews were halted. When World War II began, Jews played an important part of the Soviet military effort. Their role in the front lines was disproportionately higher then other national groups. While much of Soviet Jewry was decimated in the Holocaust, those living in Russia proper were mostly spared. After World War II was concluded, however, the attempts to suppress Soviet Jewry were resumed. Until Stalin’s death in 1953, Soviet Jews were placed in the gulag and were faced with significant physical oppression. In 1952, Stalin had a number of leading Russian Jewish intellectuals murdered in the “Night of the Murdered Poets.”

Even after Stalin’s death, the attempt to suppress Judaism and Jewish culture continued. Jewish books and religious articles had to be smuggled into the country and attempts to study the books and utilize the religious articles had to be clandestine. The covert nature restricted access to Jewish life to only a few individuals. The few Jews who continued participation in Jewish life were called refusniks, and were severely punished by the Soviet authorities. By 1965, only about 60 synagogues remained in all of Russia. It was not until Mikhail Gorbachev came to power and his policy of glasnost that restrictions on Soviet Jewry lessened.

And lastly, from http://www.fjc.ru/news/newsArticle.asp?AID=114407:

Quote
Inter-Religious Peace Conference concludes in Moscow

Wednesday, March 3 2004

MOSCOW, Russia - The Second Inter-Religious Peace Conference concluded tonight in Moscow. The conference was attended by representatives of those faiths traditionally represented in Russia and the CIS. Over 30 Chief Rabbis of cities and countries of the CIS attended, along with senior representatives of Russia's other key faiths - Russian Orthodox Christian, Islam, Buddhism, Georgian and Armenian Orthodox Christian.

A other religious leaders also addressed the conference including: the Patriarch of Moscow and Russia, Alexiy II; the Chairman of the Muftis' Council, Ravil Gainutdin; the Head of the Buddhist Sangha in Russia, Pandito Hambo Lama Damba Ayushev; the Head of Administration of Caucasus Muslims, Sheikh Ul Islam Allahshukur Pahsa-zade; the Patriarchy of Georgia, Ilya II; Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad; the Patriarch of Armenia, Garegin II; and Rabbi Arthur Schneier, who is President of New York's 'Appeal of Conscience' Foundation.

Georgiy Poltavchenko, the President's representative in the Central Federal District, opened the event by relaying a message from Russia's President Vladimir Putin. "Today, when society encounters revelations of extremism and faces attempts to abuse religion for unjust goals, the word of religious figures in defending peace is extremely important," expressed President Putin. Participants also heard greetings from Armenia's President Robert Kocheryan, Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili, Uzbekistan's President Islam Karimov, and President of Azerbaijan Ilham Aliyev.

Both religious leaders and state officials, including Acting Minister of Foreign Affairs Igor Ivanov, stressed that constructive dialogue between religions is not only extremely important, but is an inalienable part of cooperation between civilizations and cultures.

Chief Rabbi Lazar said that cooperation between representatives from different religions towards achieving a common positive goal is of fundamental importance. "We need something more than tolerance - we need each other," said Rabbi Lazar. "Together we can change relations between people, just as relations between nations and religions, to be able to raise children in the spirit of common values." He stressed the need to embrace the seven Noachide laws that provide the basis for a moral and stable society, as well as the need to reach out to influence all members of society, even those who do not practice a religious faith.

In his address, Chief Rabbi of Ukraine Azriel Chaikin noted the positive advances in religion in the CIS, following 70 years of communism. He also spoke about the campaign of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson of righteous memory, which aimed to promote a moment of silence at the outset of a school day, even in public schools, so that all pupils can reflect on the creator exclusive of their religious identity. Rabbi Chaikin explained how, if taught correctly, this method could enhance the development of the larger society, particularly when the different religions are at peace.

Throughout the conference, religious leaders spoke out against any form of violence and terrorism performed in the name of religion. The dialogue proved to be a very positive signal for the future development of constructive relations between the traditional religions of the CIS.

We remember atheistic communism as a blight on humanity that should properly be assigned to the dustbin of history.

Be well!

MBZ
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2005, 01:53:17 PM »

I would argue that the Jewish involvement in the Russian revolution and spreading of communism was not coincidental or merely a backlash to Jewish oppression. Around the time of the Russian revolution, prominent Jews were leading Marxist and Anarchist movements with the aim of overthrowing the old order. There was the Communist Kurt Eisner in Bavaria who led a failed revolution attempt, as well as Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg in Berlin who led uprisings in Germany. Also, there was Bela Cohen in Hungary leading a marxist movement. Meanwhile, here in America, we had the anarchist Emma Goldman and a long list of Jewish Marxists.
Was this  world-wide uprisings as a result of world-wide Jewish oppression, or the result of an attraction of the Jewish psychology to Marxism. Let's not forget, of course, that Marx himself was a Jew.

This link might be useful in explaining "why?" : http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html


At the time of the Russian revolution, and other failed Marxist revolution attempts in Europe, the common concensus seemed to be in the US and Britain, that these revolutions were Jewish controlled. An American intelligence committe set up to monitor the Russian Revolution came to the conclusion that:

"384 commissars there were 2 Negroes, 13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter number 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of the Imperial Government."

This, at the very least, shows that the Russian Revolution and Bolshevik victory was certainly not a popular uprising of the people, but a prominently Jewish controlled coup. The number of Jews in the Cheka/NKVD (secret police and gulag officers) is also staggering.

Winston Churchill had the same opinion. He said:

"This movement amongst the Jews (the Russian Revolution) is not new. From the days of Spartacus Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kuhn (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany) and Emma Goldman (United States), this world wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and the reconstruction of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Nesta Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognizable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities has gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire. There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from Jewish leaders."

Marxism, at its core, calls for the reshaping of the world- a total overhaul of a traditional Christian world-view. Marxism, however, was not the only philosophy or intellectual movement dominated by Jews. There was the "Frankfurt School", Freudian psychology, and Franz Boas' school of anthropology- all movements which at their core had the upheavel of the West's prevailing world-view.
What is the reason for this? I'm really not sure, to be honest. But, I do know that the Russian revolution was something greater than a few angry Jews responding to mistreatment over the centuries.
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2005, 02:55:18 PM »

What, if any, were the religious practices, if any, of these prominent so-called Jews who headed these liberal movements?

And, as a question for MBZ, how do observant, religious Jews of today view secular "Jews", such as Trotsky, who was, in fact, an atheist?

 I've always been uncomfortable with the labelling of ethnic/cultural groups based upon a racial archetype.  A good friend of mine comes from Jewish stock, but is non-practicing himself and does not label himself as a Jew, but as a person.  He resents any and all attempts by others to label his as a Jew, not because he's a so-called "self-loathing" Jew, but because, from his point of view, he does not practice any aspect of Judaism and is, in fact, an agnostic.  Is he a "Jew" just because his parents went to synagogue two times a year?  Or is he, as he labels himself, simply an American?

What is a "Jew"?
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2005, 03:07:37 PM »

What, if any, were the religious practices, if any, of these prominent so-called Jews who headed these liberal movements?

I believe they were most all atheists. As to the question, "What is a Jew?" Wikipedia has this to say:

The word Jew (Hebrew: +Ö+ö+ò+ô+Ö) is used in a wide number of ways, but generally refers to a follower of the Jewish faith, a child of a Jewish mother, or someone of Jewish descent with a connection to Jewish culture or ethnicity and often a combination of these attributes. This article discusses the term as describing an ethnic group; for a consideration of the religion, please refer to Judaism.

A connection to the Hebrew Bible is not a requirement.
It's so hard to discuss these questions without seeming "anti-semetic". I just think, on the whole, Jews share a common history and psychology which has, generally speaking, resulted in certain distinct ways of thinking. The same could be said for certain Christian communities.
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2005, 04:04:02 PM »


I just think, on the whole, Jews share a common history and psychology which has, generally speaking, resulted in certain distinct ways of thinking. The same could be said for certain Christian communities.

But those certain Christian communities all share a worldview created by a shared religious vision and a shared ethno-cultural experience.

The same cannot be said of, say, my aforementioned friend and my co-worker, both of whom share the same surname but the latter's strict orthodox religious experience sets him apart (no pun intended) from the former.  My friend Randy has not set foot in a synagogue since his 9th birthday, while my co-worker Scott works only half a day on Friday so he can make it home and have everything ready for dinner before sunset.  Both are "Jews", but both do not identify themselves as such, nor should they have to do so.  I had to explain to Randy what a balabosta one evening; he had absolutely no idea.

That would be like explaining to someone who identifies himself as a Slav what a baba is.

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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2005, 08:10:42 AM »

Hi all!

Answering the question, "Who is a Jew?" is very simple. A Jew is anyone who was born of a Jewish mother or who underwent an orthodox conversion. Whether any given Jew goes to synagogue on any regular basis or not, believes in God or not, is irrelevant.

Schultz, you asked:

Quote
And, as a question for MBZ, how do observant, religious Jews of today view secular "Jews", such as Trotsky, who was, in fact, an atheist?

We see them as erring brothers & sisters (but brothers & sisters nevertheless) who, hopefully, will return to the traditional faith of our people. Very many Jews in previous generations went/were led/ astray after the folly/heresy of communism. A Jew who was raised in a secular (whether merely non-religious or outright anti-religios) environment & who was never educated in traditional, normative Judaism isn't the same as a Jew who is familiar with traditional, normative Judaism and who willfully rejects it. A greatgrandson of Trotsky's lives here in Israel, is religious & learns at an orthodox yeshiva (religious academy). Look at Kings 18:1-39, which describes Elijah's showdown with the priests of Baal. Hidden in the account of this dramatic encounter is a marvelous message of hope. 18:30-32 tells us how Elijah took great care and that he, "repaired the altar of the Lord that was in ruins." The original Hebrew word, that is usually mistranslated as "he repared", is vayirapeh, which literally means "he healed". The use of this verb here is very unusual; this verb is usually used in reference to people only. Our Sages, who teach that nothing in the text of the scriptures is either incidental or coincidental, offer a wonderful commentary here. Just as an altar that has been been thrown down and is in ruins can be healed and restored to God's service, so too can a person who is in a state of spiritual ruin be healed and restored to God's service. Elijah took 12 stones, one for each tribe of Israel, even those tribes which were sunk in Baal worship and the gross immorality that went along with it, and used them to heal/rebuild the altar of God, to show that the people in the tribes, just like the stones, could be healed/spiritually rebuilt and restored to the service of God.

I included that third excerpt in my previous post because I sincerely believe that believing orthodox Jews & believing orthodox Christians can & should work together. If the Chief Rabbi of Russia & the Russian Orthodox Patriarch can see each other as colleagues & friends, shouldn't we learn from our respective spiritual leaders and follow their example?

Howzat?

MBZ
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2005, 08:57:08 AM »

Agreement with MBZ. Jews and Christians can and should be friends, and this message needs could be taken first to Israel, where it is a most common practice, actually a reflex, for Jews to spit on Christians and the symbol of the cross. And not only should Jews and Christians be friends, but Jews, Muslims and Christians can and should also all be friends.

History shows us that religious organisations are made up of leaders and followers. Followers of various faiths actually get on quite nicely between themselves.

But going back to my topic, we know now that the Bolsheviks appeared to be atheist communists. The question we must ask is were they truly atheist, or was their atheism a ploy to get Christians to renounce the Church ? History records them as being atheist solely because they were Russian and not Christian. They were neither Russian, nor Christian, and that does not necessarily make them atheist. And in fact, the Bolshevik "embrace" of Communism inspired a famous literary work of the time, George Orwell's 1984.

The question I asked originally has been answered by the responses, and I thank you all for participating. There are no history textbooks in schools today that tell the younger generation what really happened, by who, or record the fact that tens of  millions of Christian civilians [ mostly educated and literate ] were exterminated in Russia. That in itself is the antithesis of nation-building - killing the best and brightest. To water down the argument by stating that it was a long time ago and best forgotten is not  ideal : it was a forty year Christian Holocaust.  What was the lesson learned ? Where is the application of the lesson learned ?

May all who can think, understand.
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2005, 08:59:12 AM »

If the Chief Rabbi of Russia & the Russian Orthodox Patriarch can see each other as colleagues & friends, shouldn't we learn from our respective spiritual leaders and follow their example?

MBZ

Excellent! Well said, MBZ.


fiftybmg, please forgive my earlier rant. Embarrassed

You ended on a high note. Well thought out, and I agree with you.

Kolya
« Last Edit: March 09, 2005, 09:12:37 AM by Kolya » Logged

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