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« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2005, 02:26:23 PM »


This topic reminds me of a true story I just heard about.  There is a Deacon who was born and raised in Russia and still has a very distinct Russian accent.  Not too long ago he was serving with one of the Bishops and read the Gospel.  After the Liturgy a lady went up to him and stated how beautiful he read and how good it was to hear the Gospel in Slavonic once again!  Only problem was he read it in English!

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« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2005, 03:39:11 PM »

THAT wins "Post of the Day" award... :thumbsup:
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« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2005, 04:34:31 PM »

Let's see,

When you're at the services, just worship God, and no you dont need to Understand the Prayers that are being said on your behalf inorder for them to have a benifit, God understands them just fine. If you want to learn the dogmatics that are Contained in the Hymns, there are many English Translations out there; let me know what hymn you desperately need to read for your salvation, and I'll point you to it in English (I believe there may be a few verses here and there out of the Meanion from Smaller Saints that haven't been translated, but they are few and far between...of course, this would make it difficult to do the services in English on these saints' days)

Also, communion line statistics don't tell me anything, a healthy spiritual life cannot be determined by statisitical analysis. Frequent communion can be just as dangerous as, if not more dangerous than, infrequent communion; have these people who go up to take communion every sunday properly prepared? Did they go to Vespers the night before, read compline with the pre-communion prayers, read that morning's pre-communion prayres, and go to orthros like they should? Not to say that these are absolute legalistic requirements, but it is an indication of what one should do to prepare to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ. For we all know that if one does not properly prepare themsleves for the Eucharist, it is not a benifit, but a detriment, to them: they do not partake unto life eternal, but unto hell and damnation.

Finally, no one seems to be addressing the heart of the issue which I presented in my previous two posts; what is Essential and what is Accidental to Orthodoxy, and more importantly, Can we even make such a Distinction?

I fear we are simply discussing the Accidents of the Issue, ignoring the Essence. Wink
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« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2005, 05:08:19 PM »

I still have no idea why English is so irredeemable, or corrupt, or distasteful, or just plain "icky" that it has to be avoided in favor of Greek, even when that means a large portion of the people will have no idea what they're praying.  Even if they don't have to understand it and just worship, what we pray is what we believe.  If we have no idea what we're praying during Liturgy, how are we supposed to have any idea what we believe?
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« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2005, 05:22:26 PM »

When you're at the services, just worship God, and no you dont need to Understand the Prayers that are being said on your behalf inorder for them to have a benifit, God understands them just fine. If you want to learn the dogmatics that are Contained in the Hymns, there are many English Translations out there; let me know what hymn you desperately need to read for your salvation, and I'll point you to it in English (I believe there may be a few verses here and there out of the Meanion from Smaller Saints that haven't been translated, but they are few and far between...of course, this would make it difficult to do the services in English on these saints' days)

Of course, we don't have to understand the liturgy but understanding it is a good thing.  The liturgy is the best teacher of our faith. 

Quote
Also, communion line statistics don't tell me anything, a healthy spiritual life cannot be determined by statisitical analysis.

It's true that the spiritual life cannot be determined by statistics but these statistics do indeed tell us something.  4 out of 200 people communing is a problem.  According to the bulletin about 50 of the attendees were children,presumably many of them below the age of 7.  That means that they should have communed. 

Quote
Finally, no one seems to be addressing the heart of the issue which I presented in my previous two posts; what is Essential and what is Accidental to Orthodoxy, and more importantly, Can we even make such a Distinction?

It's impossible to separate the "essentials" from the "accidentals."  The western churches are wrong when they try to remove religious imagery and traditional chant, believing them to be meaningless.  We can't separate our emotions from our intellect.  That's why your point about not needing to understand the liturgy is correct.  If we were traveling in a foreign country, we wouldn't stay home from liturgy because we don't understand the language.  However, I would argue that you are attempting to separate the essential from the accidentals by relying on that argument.  Sure we don't *need* to understand.  It's not "essential" but the contrary, not needing to understanding, isn't "accidental" either. 

Regarding what I wrote earlier about your "tone," I understand that you didn't intend to insult people who disagree with you but your posts seem to have an attitude about the militant "pro-english" crowd that I find distasteful.  It seems to me that you are overly negative about them, unwilling to admit that they can be motivated by positive things.  Hence we have you describing them as lazy and hating ethnicity, etc. 

I would suggest, and really I try to from psychoanalyzing people on-line but I can't help myself now, that your negative attitude towards them is based on your negative attitude towards your native culture.  You are an American therefore your disdain for our culture is unfortunate.  They are people that you come from.  They formed you.  There are unfortunate things in our culture but it's still who you are.  Disdain for it is in a way, disdain for yourself and your people.  I think once you work out your relationship to where you come from, you'll better understand those within your church who want english liturgies.  I'm think you're at seminary training to be a priest.  Is that right?  If so, then I'm a little disappointed that your mentors haven't 'confronted' you about this disdain before.  I think it's probably an indication that they themselves have the same problem. 

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« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2005, 06:19:41 PM »


Finally, no one seems to be addressing the heart of the issue which I presented in my previous two posts; what is Essential and what is Accidental to Orthodoxy, and more importantly, Can we even make such a Distinction?



What's Essential is proclaiming the Gospel. What's Accidental is Greek culture.
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« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2005, 06:24:02 PM »

greekischristian,
Two separate issues (although they are intertwined) - Culture and Language.

1) Culture - what it seems to me you actually disagree with is not American "Culture" per se but the increasingly secular, carnal and materialistic mentality purveying America or to be more accuarate, much more present in "the West" as opposed to "the East". I don't think anyone here would agree with you more that this is very tragic and abhorrent, BUT, and this is a big BUT, it can easily be sepated from what American "Culture" really is. I would even say that what you object to is not actually American culture or more that it is a separate entity that is denigrating the culture. There is a former CSB (Christ the Saviour Brotherhood) parish in town under the Bulgarians. They are very pious people, but yet appreciate many cultures (not saying that being pious doesn't allow this). Some of their younger people sing Bluegrass "spiritual" tunes at their Friday night "Cafe" at their bookstore. I've heard one of their priests say several times that "Bluegrass music is Orthodox music". A bit of a stretch, but the mentality is probably correct.

2) Language - there is absolutely no (credible) evidence you can provide why English (or another vernacular) is wrong for the Divine Liturgy. If we are in fact seriousness about our Salvation, then I vehemently disagree and iterate that it is necessary that we are able to understand the Divine Liturgy. While it is good and to attend and just worship God, it is comparitively much more efficacious to our Salvation to be able to understand what the teachings, what the prayers and hymns are and why. The priest doesn't preach for the sake of having to give a homily; he doesn't exhort the choir to annunciate and sing properly for the sake of beauty. It is for the benefit of the congregation to understand the prayers and teachings. Even though there is theology in the tones themselves, it is purely of a secondary nature. Otherwise, there would be no need for the words themselves and one would just announce (Troparion Tone 5: This is the meaning) and just sing "La" or whatever. Everything is God's creation and thus there is beauty in everything. Language is no different. Just because it was roots in "the corrupted West", doesn't mean that anything associated with it is irredeemable.
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« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2005, 07:00:36 PM »

I'm afraid I have to side with the "language is a functional element" side on this one. 

On the one hand, if the people don't understand what is going it becomes dead noise.  On the other hand, language and ethnic identity can be used to pull people who would otherwise be lost into the Truth.  Each priest in each eparchy in each patriarchate has to make that balance work.  It's a balance that has to be kept and I think it is counterproductive for us to second guess that judgement.  For one person, there may be too much Greek.  For another person too much English.  That is one reason we have so many jurisdictions in the Americas:  we have wildly different spiritual needs.  Personally, I like having both options available and I wish both sides would see the need for the other.

Unfortunately, it is apparent that neither side ever will.
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« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2005, 07:51:31 PM »


Unfortunately, it is apparent that neither side ever will.

I think that is probably only true of the "extremists" on each end, fortunately.  Too bad they exist.
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« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2005, 08:54:59 PM »

I would really like to add my 2 bucks (forget $.02) to this thread, but someone has got to define this "American culture" in the first place. Outside of liturgical language, I don't see where this undefined quantity/quality even relates.
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« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2005, 09:03:57 PM »

It's impossible to separate the "essentials" from the "accidentals." The western churches are wrong when they try to remove religious imagery and traditional chant, believing them to be meaningless. We can't separate our emotions from our intellect. That's why your point about not needing to understand the liturgy is correct. If we were traveling in a foreign country, we wouldn't stay home from liturgy because we don't understand the language. However, I would argue that you are attempting to separate the essential from the accidentals by relying on that argument. Sure we don't *need* to understand. It's not "essential" but the contrary, not needing to understanding, isn't "accidental" either.

I agree that the necessity to understand the faith and understand the liturgy is an essenital, for I agree that the distinction between Essence and Accident cannot be made; however, it also follows that the maintaining of Orthodox Cultures are equally essential; yet I will go even further and say that Orthodoxy being relevant to every culture is an essential, for it is part of the missionary work of the Church. The issue about understanding I believe has been settled because English translations exist, thus even if the Liturgy is in Greek, you can still understand what it says because you can have a copy of it in English (or numerous other languages) infront of you. The second issue is a bit more tricky, how to keep Orthodoxy Greek, and make America Orthodox. This will, of course, require some Hellenization of America, just as the Slavic cultures were Hellenized; however, just as the slavic cultures did not have to be completely usurped by Hellenic culture, neither does America. Ideally, in time Orthodoxy will become American as America becomes more Orthodox, and the two events should happen at roughly the same rate. My objection is not to the fact that there should eventually be and American Orthodoxy, my objection is to trying to create an American Orthodoxy before there is an Orthodox America. The issue does not need to be forced, if we live our lives in a Christian manner, the difficulity will eventually take care of itself. But perhaps that's asking a bit too much out of the Orthodox in this Country (or any country for that matter).

Regarding what I wrote earlier about your "tone," I understand that you didn't intend to insult people who disagree with you but your posts seem to have an attitude about the militant "pro-english" crowd that I find distasteful. It seems to me that you are overly negative about them, unwilling to admit that they can be motivated by positive things. Hence we have you describing them as lazy and hating ethnicity, etc.

About my tone, it is, well, polemic, like this entire thread. But you will notice that keeping with good debating form, none (hopefully, or at least very little) of my polemic language has been directed towards anyone in particular, I try to avoid the use of the second person. If I attack a group that you Identify yourself with, try defending them in the third person, or if you want to make it clear that you identify with that Group, use the first person, but defend the posistion, my tone is not the issue. With this said, I have found myself attacked many times on this thread, with people using the second person singular, I try not to take offence, and I endeavour to address the issues, not the insults. In debate it is not good form to take offence from an argument, for taking offence, and especially arguing based upon that offence, can often be viewed as, or construed to be, an acknowledgement of the merit of the other person's arguments and a lack of confidence in, and inability to defend, one's own (not that I'm accusing you of this, or even saying that it's always true, just that this is often how it is viewed in matters of debate and rhetoric). My appologies if my statement has sounded harsh, for it's not intended in that manner, it is simply intended to portray how I view debate, why I use the language I do, and the detriment in going off on tangents of an accidental nature. (I bring up essence and accident, and now I find myself sticking it everywhere...lol)

I would suggest, and really I try to from psychoanalyzing people on-line but I can't help myself now, that your negative attitude towards them is based on your negative attitude towards your native culture. You are an American therefore your disdain for our culture is unfortunate. They are people that you come from. They formed you. There are unfortunate things in our culture but it's still who you are. Disdain for it is in a way, disdain for yourself and your people. I think once you work out your relationship to where you come from, you'll better understand those within your church who want english liturgies. I'm think you're at seminary training to be a priest. Is that right? If so, then I'm a little disappointed that your mentors haven't 'confronted' you about this disdain before. I think it's probably an indication that they themselves have the same problem.

Ah, about my psychological profile, first let us deal with the particulars, then we can address the issue in general. 'You are an American therefore your disdain for our culture is unfortunate. They are the people that you come from...' How did we jump from a dislike of Culture to a dislike of people? Next, since the reason I have previously given for my dislike of American culture is the fact that it is materialistic, individualistic, greedy, selfish, and in general sinful; thus using the hypothesis derived from my opinions and statements (it is my psychological profile, after all) American culture = sin. Accordingly with this small piece of information that you left out let me reconstruct your statement. 'You are a sinner (member of a culture of sin) therefore your disdain for sin is unfortunate. Sinners are people that you come from. They formed you. There are unfortunate things in our culture (sin) but it's still who you are. Disdain for sin is in a way, disdain for yourself and your people.' Now, if you want to discuss the legitimacy of my belief that American culture is sinful, that's another issue entirely, which I am willing to debate. As far as my understanding people who want english-only, I do understand them, for I confess to having been one of them at one point, but since then I've had a bit more experiance and have become better read, and I have since re-evaluated my stances on some issues; hopefully I will soon have the chance to spend some time in Greece pursuing a degree or two, which will allow me to have an even better experiance on which to base my beliefs about the relationship between Culture and Orthodoxy.

Now, for the more general response I promised, while I will confess to a 'disdain' for American culture, this should not be viewed an abandoning or complete rejection of American culture. In Psalm 5:5 david says of God, 'The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity;' what is this hatred of which David speaks? Surely it's not a desire to completely destroy them, for God, as the source of all, can bring all things into and out of existance at will, and if He willed their destruction, it would be so. Rather, this hatred is actually an element of God's Love, He does not want to see these people cease to exist, but to see them turn back to Him: a destruction, or 'putting off' of the 'old man,' so that the Person may be brought to repentance. By analogy, I wish to see the destruction of individualist, materialist, capitalist, selfish, greedy, arrogant, and generally protestant elements of American culture, what virtues are these vices to be replaced with? The answer to this question is why I hold up Traditional Orthodox Culture as the Standard I do, they are something to strive towards, and something to fill the cultural voids when they form with the destruction of these vices. I am not trying to cease to be an American, I'm advocating the creation of an America that doesn't make me hang my head in shame when I'm forced to acknowledge that I am an American.
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« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2005, 09:07:58 PM »

What's Essential is proclaiming the Gospel. What's Accidental is Greek culture.

I can't say that I agree with your Aristotelian Metaphysic, but for the sake of argument let's go with it for a bit. Is Greek culture alone accidental, or is culture in general accidental?

Concerning essentials, is only the Proclamation of the Gospel Essential, or is the Gospel itself also an Essential? Are Dogmas and Traditions simply Accidents, wich can be altered as necessary to fulfill the only great essential: the proclamation there of?
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« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2005, 09:16:53 PM »



What's Essential is proclaiming the Gospel. What's Accidental is Greek culture.

When I became an Orthodox Christian, I stopped believing in accidents/coincidences, particularly as they relate to the fulfillment of the Gospel. 

Be careful about what you deem to be non-essential:

"They carry a vessel of very precious liquid; all fall down, all kiss and adore the vessel containing this precious life-giving fluid. And then, suddenly, people stand up and begin to cry: You blind! Why do you kiss the vessel? It is only the live-giving fluid contained in it that is precious; only the contents is precious and not the container; but you are kissing glass, simple glass; you adore the vessel and the glass, ascribing all the holiness to it, and you are forgetting about the precious fluid that it contains. You idol-worshipers! Throw away the vessel and break it. Adore only the life-giving fluid, and not the glass!

And the glass was broken, as we read further in Dostoevsky's parable, and the life-giving fluid, the precious contents, is poured out on the earth and disappears into the earth. They have broken the vessel and lost the liquid. What miserable, unhappy, benighted people! exclaims Dostoevsky as he ends his parable."

 - Fr. Victor Potapov (http://www.stjohndc.org/stjohndc/English/Command/9111.htm)

An Athonite Elder said:  "These days we try to become righteous with very little effort.  We have abandoned tradition.  We do not look to those at the top, and how they came in first in the race.  We see only those who came last."

"Last", my friends, that's us,  American converts in our (truly) barbarian land.  We're young Orthodox in young American Orthodox parishes and we presume to think that we do not need our Elders, the very ones who brought Holy Orthodoxy to us in the sacred vessels of their tradition? I'd much rather take chances with the "precious life giving fluid" brought to me in their sacred vessels than with a leaky american fastfood styrofoam box any day.






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« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2005, 09:35:46 PM »

Two separate issues (although they are intertwined) - Culture and Language.

Are they? I've met many Greeks (and even many english-only advocates) who would disagree.

1) Culture - what it seems to me you actually disagree with is not American "Culture" per se but the increasingly secular, carnal and materialistic mentality purveying America or to be more accuarate, much more present in "the West" as opposed to "the East". I don't think anyone here would agree with you more that this is very tragic and abhorrent, BUT, and this is a big BUT, it can easily be sepated from what American "Culture" really is. I would even say that what you object to is not actually American culture or more that it is a separate entity that is denigrating the culture. There is a former CSB (Christ the Saviour Brotherhood) parish in town under the Bulgarians. They are very pious people, but yet appreciate many cultures (not saying that being pious doesn't allow this). Some of their younger people sing Bluegrass "spiritual" tunes at their Friday night "Cafe" at their bookstore. I've heard one of their priests say several times that "Bluegrass music is Orthodox music". A bit of a stretch, but the mentality is probably correct.

I use the term American 'Culture' lightly, you'll often seem put culture in quotation marks or add the prefix pseudo- to it. The actual cultural developments of America are minimal, even bluegrass is simply modern folk music which was almost entirely derived from English and Irish ballads (all of which I quite enjoy, btw, though I would cringe to see someone try to work it into the Divine Liturgy). Generally what I do refer to when I mention American culture is one of the more (if not the most) important aspect of culture, namely the weltanschuung that the culture espouses; as the weltanschuung will ultimately influence all other aspects of culture, from music and art to language and even food. Thus my objections to American culture are objections to the American mindset, with the acknowledgement that the weltanschuung will eventually (if it hasn't already) affect everything else that can be grouped under the title of 'culture.'

2) Language - there is absolutely no (credible) evidence you can provide why English (or another vernacular) is wrong for the Divine Liturgy. If we are in fact seriousness about our Salvation, then I vehemently disagree and iterate that it is necessary that we are able to understand the Divine Liturgy. While it is good and to attend and just worship God, it is comparitively much more efficacious to our Salvation to be able to understand what the teachings, what the prayers and hymns are and why. The priest doesn't preach for the sake of having to give a homily; he doesn't exhort the choir to annunciate and sing properly for the sake of beauty. It is for the benefit of the congregation to understand the prayers and teachings. Even though there is theology in the tones themselves, it is purely of a secondary nature. Otherwise, there would be no need for the words themselves and one would just announce (Troparion Tone 5: This is the meaning) and just sing "La" or whatever. Everything is God's creation and thus there is beauty in everything. Language is no different. Just because it was roots in "the corrupted West", doesn't mean that anything associated with it is irredeemable.

I dont recall saying that English is 'wrong' for the Divine Liturgy; I have, however, said that I have a preference for Greek and I have also objected to those who claim Greek is 'wrong' for the Divine Liturgy; furthermore, I have implied, if not explicitly stated, that rashness and radical change is wrong, patience is a great virtue, and should be used, along with caution, when making any changes lest one creates a Scandal in the Church, which we can observe to have happened. I have already stated that as everything is translated into English, anyone is free to read the theology of the Hymns at anytime they wish, even following along during the Divine Liturgy (why not sing them to yourself while the Cantor is singing in Greek/Slavonic/Serbian/et cetera), so I will not go further into that. However, I would like to address the statement 'he doesn't exhort the choir to annunciate and sing properly for the sake of beauty;' why else, if not for the sake of beauty, should the chior (hopefully cantor(s), but that's a different issue) sing properly? If the point was simply to get the theology out, why not just read they hymns? I shall conclude with a portion of the Russian Primary Chronicle, which implies that it was beauty, not theology, that converted Russia to Orthodoxy:

'When we journeyed among the Bulgars, we beheld how they worship in their temple, called a mosque, while they stand ungirt. The Bulgarian bows, sits down, looks hither and thither like one possessed, and there is no happiness among them, but instead only sorrow and a dreadful stench. Their religion is not good. Then we went among the Germans, and saw them performing many ceremonies in their temples; but we beheld no glory there. Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty. Every man, after tasting something sweet, is afterward unwilling to accept that which is bitter, and therefore we cannot dwell longer here.'
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« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2005, 09:51:32 PM »

Language and culture are easily separable; look at all the different cultural groups that use (more or less) the same English.  And when it comes to understanding, what are the numbers involved?  How many Orthodox people are there still in America (or in my case Canada) who don't speak English?  Contrast that to people who don't speak Greek or Slavonic or whatever else.  This is not only converts and the children of converts; this is the children of the "ethnics" as well.  So basically the only argument against the use of English is that the old languages are more "beautiful" or "elevated" or "Orthodox".  Firstly, this argument is a priori rather sketchy; it's a lot like Muslims who claim that Arabic is far and away the greatest language ever, whereas in actual fact its appeal is largely due to its exotic nature.  This is not the way the writers of the New Testament operated.  They wrote in Greek, because it was an international language, and they didn't even use the literary form of the language; they wrote it in the words of the common people.  Anything that isn't "beautiful" when put in words the common people can use and understand isn't "beautiful" at any deep level to begin with.  I trust no one here has such a low opinion of the Orthodox liturgy!
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« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2005, 10:40:56 PM »

I am afraid my contribution here will not agree with anyone else above.  However, when greekischristian avers that "Orthodoxy (or Christianity) is Greek" in so many words he is absolutely correct. Whether that follows through to involve what should constitute "American Orthodoxy" (if that ethnic moniker can be defined) is debatable.
When one hears the term "Greek" Orthodox the natural inclination is to assume that one (or all ) of the Hellenic Orthodox Churches is being referenced. This is not true any more than assuming that "Roman" Catholic applies always to only the Church of Rome and not to all churches in the papal communion.
Christianity was born in a world thoroughly Hellenized by Alexander long before the Roman Empire. In fact this Hellenized empire not only included all of the eventual Roman areas of the middle east and north Africa, but even further - all the way into the Bactrian regions of Afghanistan and northern India. Greek, the Koine (common) language developed from Ionan Greek with input from the local regions, was the common language.
Without doubt the Apostles spoke and used Aramaic but they fully understood the Greek of the day as did the scribes to whom the gospels were dictated. One can add to the Greek of the New Testament the Greek of the Septuagint.
The early Church Fathers co-oped or borrowed  terms from Hellenistic philosophy to initially explain and define Christian theology, especially to the gentiles-the Greeks and Hellenized peoples (those gentiles first being evangelized in Antioch). Surely Aramaic was used but the overwhelming literature defining Christianity was Greek. I am certain St. Paul and St. Andrew used Greek in Anatolia and Greece. Rome used Greek for its first 250 years. Christianity was DEFINED in Greek in language, theological concept, and practise.
The Coptic language adapted the Greek alphabet and imported Greek words outright in order to explain theology.
The Cyrillic alphabet is an adaptation of the Greek.
Like it or not Christianity is indelibly marked as Greek. Greek, not in some Hellenic hegemony, but Greek in expression. I am certain (Demetri waxes heretical here) that if the Tibetans had been the "chosen people" then the Lord would have revealed His Church there in the "fullness of time"and the same Truth would still prevail and we would have some Tibetan langauge to complain about. But it did happen so.
On this very forum today there are several threads questioning various passages in the New Testament and the Septuagint. Everyone has scrambled for their favorite translation. Doesn't that alarm anyone but me? If I am not mistaken but isn't Russian AND Slavonic mandatory at ROCOR theological schools and monasteries? Why no complaints here?
I could probably argue that language played a very large part in the post Chalcedon schism - from both sides.
Blessed Augustine's lack of Greek helped an abasement of his thought that later was a factor in the Great Schism.
Whether or not the GOA parish in your city uses Greek or English matters not a wit in defining "American" Orthodoxy. Loss of Greek fluency would be tragic however to all of Orthodoxy. In point of fact no ethnic-based church here in the US seems to comfortably adapt to anythng but the traditions of its mother church. ANY change is automatically deemed a 'protestanizition' even if it has nothing to do with 'protesting'. We each guard our small 't' traditions as if they were something Orthodox in themselves. I wonder if a generic Orthodoxy can exist. The closest I might be able to think of would have been the vagante Evangelical Orthodox Church before the Antiochians took them in. I was aghast when I read how Patriarch Demetrios of Constantinople treated them and it took a long time for me to realize that he just did not know what to make of them (sad).
If I had my choice I would like to see Greek preserved and liturical Greek taught in our GOA monasteries, Greek used in our metropolitan cathedrals, and English used in any parish where it is not outright opposed by the congregation itself and modern Greek available as a course in the parish. (I'll wager there would be surprises as to the choices made).
As I see no "American" culture to promote in any church I would like to see SCOBA demand that all Orthodox parishes change their signage to state:
 St SSSSS Orthodox Catholic Church
(OCA, GOA,  AA, or whichever jurisdiction)
{Greek, or Greek/English, or Slavonic/English} in tiny letters.


« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 04:50:53 AM by +æ-ü+¦-â-ä+++¦+++«-é » Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
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