OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 09:32:48 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Music & Ancient Literature  (Read 845 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,759


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« on: December 28, 2013, 07:13:37 PM »

This is a bit of a rant, but bear with me.

You know what I don't understand?

How come music--in particular, hip-hop and rock/metal--is considered trash when it contains profane lyrics involving sex and violence, and all of the puritan media groups and religious organizations--even many Orthodox people and clergy--advise against listening to it because it's considered a blasphemy before God to fill your head with sinful behavior.

Yet,

Ancient works of literature like The Odyssey and Beowulf are just as full of profanity, violence, and sex, and yet they are hailed as classic works of art and virtually every Greek person alive has some type of fetish for The Odyssey and compares Odysseus to Christ?

Why are so many people telling their children to read books like the aforementioned epics instead of listening to profane music even though the books are often just as bad--if not worse?

I think that Beowulf tearing a guy's arms off (Book 13) is a lot more violent than Ice Cube screaming "**** the Police!" or Marilyn Manson wearing black clothing and white face paint. I think that Odysseus committing adultery on his wife with a god and sexually enslaving "the captive women in their low-girdled dresses" (3:154) is a lot more inappropriate than "The way she's grinding that pole/I think I'm losing control" or "I'm not a player I just **** a lot."

Just saying...

/rant
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
quietmorning
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,336


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2013, 04:55:01 PM »

James, in any writing, every word should have meaning and should be necessary to the story.  If I am writing a character and the character uses profanity, then it must be necessary to the story and to the building of that character.  

Unnecessary profanity, sex just for the sake of sale, violence for the sake of pulling listeners doesn't do anything but bring the soul to a place of numbness.  These are classics because 1) they are the first of their kind to use the writing format used.  2) the words, events are all necessary for the character and the building of the story.  

I love to listen to Eminem.  He's a phenomenal writer.  He uses profanity - and if you took one word out of what he is writing, then you lose the whole meaning of the song.  There are some songs I don't like to listen to - the ones where he rages on someone in a personal way. . .

So try to look at it from a writer's point of view. . .is it the lyrics you're after or the music / sound behind the lyrics?  Are they saying something of value . . .and as in an argument, is their statement of value weakened by the use of profanity, sex or violence?

« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 05:01:37 PM by quietmorning » Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
quietmorning
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,336


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2013, 05:00:41 PM »

dup post, sorry folks.


« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 05:01:09 PM by quietmorning » Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 05:05:14 PM »

You do realize that the violence in Beowulf is directed against a creature of evil for the defense of others who are in the hall of Hrothgar praising the creator of the universe. Just sayin'.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2013, 05:18:43 PM »

Why is this in the Non-Religious Topics subforum?

It surely seems like some self-righteous, moralistic opinion based on offending some religious (and thin) standard. If not that, bored Sunday trolling.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2013, 05:26:25 PM »

virtually every Greek person alive has some type of fetish for The Odyssey and compares Odysseus to Christ

 laugh

Polymeros kai polytropos palai ho Theos lalesas... (Hebrews 1:1)

Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, polytropon... (Odyssey 1:1)

That's the best I can come up with...

Maybe you meant to say "compares Orpheus to Christ". You'd have much better luck with that.
Logged
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,498


Leave that no-account Oogie-Boogie out of this!


« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 05:35:58 PM »

Maybe you meant to say "compares Orpheus to Christ". You'd have much better luck with that.

Or, even better, Socrates.
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,221



« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2013, 05:37:38 PM »

^ Did you win a novel writing award recently?
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2013, 05:42:40 PM »

Why is this in the Non-Religious Topics subforum?

It surely seems like some self-righteous, moralistic opinion based on offending some religious (and thin) standard. If not that, bored Sunday trolling.
+1.  My sentiments exactly.

As a professor of the Greek and Latin languages, I would normally welcome and be glad to engage you on such a topic, but since you assert such blatantly false premises as this doosey:


Ancient works of literature like The Odyssey and Beowulf are just as full of profanity, violence, and sex, and yet they are hailed as classic works of art and virtually every Greek person alive has some type of fetish for The Odyssey and compares Odysseus to Christ?

I refuse to honor your request.  BTW, can you point me to these Greeks who have a fetish for the Odyssey and compare Odysseus to Christ?  The Greeks honor and revere the Odyssey as part of their heritage just as the British honor and revere Shakespeare's works or as the Finns revere and honor the Kalevala.  I think you need to clarify what the definition of "fetish" is.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,498


Leave that no-account Oogie-Boogie out of this!


« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2013, 05:44:23 PM »

^ Did you win a novel writing award recently?

I completed a challenge to draft a novel in 30 days. Still not sure if I'm going to polish it for publication.
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,535


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2013, 05:46:51 PM »

Compared to some parts of the Greek Anthology those rappers seem to be decent yet puritanic old ladies.

Maybe you meant to say "compares Orpheus to Christ". You'd have much better luck with that.

St. Clement would disagree Smiley

Quote
In my opinion, therefore, our Thracian, Orpheus and the Theban [Amphion] and the Methymnian [Arion] too, are not worthy of the name of man, since they were deceivers. Under cover of music they have outraged human life, being influenced by daemons, through some artful sorcery, to compass man’s ruin. By commemorating deeds of violence in their religious rites, and by bringing stories of sorrow into worship, they were the first to lead men by the hand to idolatory; yes, and with stocks and stones, that is to say, statues and pictures, to build up the stupid custom. By their chants and enchantments they have held captive in the lowest slavery that truly noble freedom which belongs to those who are citizens under heaven.

-St. Clement of Alexandria, Protrepticus, 1

« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 05:52:41 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,535


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2013, 05:53:17 PM »

^ Did you win a novel writing award recently?

I completed a challenge to draft a novel in 30 days. Still not sure if I'm going to polish it for publication.

What was the plot? You should've told us more about it.
Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,498


Leave that no-account Oogie-Boogie out of this!


« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2013, 06:00:40 PM »

^ Did you win a novel writing award recently?

I completed a challenge to draft a novel in 30 days. Still not sure if I'm going to polish it for publication.

What was the plot? You should've told us more about it.

It's full of plotholes, but the main idea involves a turf war between Hel and Hekate. Spheres of influence, and all that. It may or may not go the comedy route.
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,842


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2013, 07:03:00 PM »

I think you need to clarify what the definition of "fetish" is.

I really wish you didn't ask him to do this...
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2013, 08:00:31 PM »

I think you need to clarify what the definition of "fetish" is.

I really wish you didn't ask him to do this...

Sorry.  I should have thought that through.  Mea culpa! angel
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2013, 08:08:46 PM »

As a professor of the Greek and Latin languages

When did you get your raise?

First as a Latinist.

Really didn't think you could top that. Well done.

Seriously, I really do hope you were trying to get me to laugh.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2013, 08:09:28 PM »

^ Did you win a novel writing award recently?

As always, JamesR's threads generate pure win.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2013, 08:11:25 PM »

I think you need to clarify what the definition of "fetish" is.

I really wish you didn't ask him to do this...

I don't care if Scam if a self described Professor of Latinism, I would bet JamesR would hit closer to what a fetish is than he.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 08:12:22 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,424



« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2013, 08:56:54 PM »

Ancient works of literature like The Odyssey and Beowulf are just as full of profanity, violence, and sex, and yet they are hailed as classic works of art

May I ask what translation of Beowulf you have read that has profanity or sex?  Yes, there are descriptions of violence such as the sea beasts dragging the young hero down in the sea such that he slays them such that sailors will no longer have to fear being attacked.
  "From now on/ sailors would be safe, the deep-sea raids/ were over for good" (lines 567-569, Seamus Heaney translation)

The "guy" you refer to was Grendel a supernatural monster who has been killing people in King Hrothgar's hall for some time. Beowulf and his companions come to the king's court to put an end to the terror and destruction.  The other characters Beowulf confronts are Grendel's mother, equally supernatural and evil and a dragon that is attacking Beowulf's own subjects.  He is not engaged in such acts to be a thug but to be a hero for others.

Have you read all of the poem? 
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2013, 09:07:41 PM »

Ancient works of literature like The Odyssey and Beowulf are just as full of profanity, violence, and sex, and yet they are hailed as classic works of art
The "guy" you refer to was Grendel a supernatural monster who has been killing people in King Hrothgar's hall for some time.

The apologies for the violence of Beowulf here demonstrate quite clearly the role of the fetish, if nearly every post around here about icons didn't already, or pretty much every post in the private forums.

And James, stop reading Beowulf. It's garbage and pointless. Much like the fans of the work it remains forever unproductive.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2013, 09:11:30 PM »

As a professor of the Greek and Latin languages

When did you get your raise?

First as a Latinist.

Really didn't think you could top that. Well done.

Seriously, I really do hope you were trying to get me to laugh.

Yeah, my whole reason for my continued participation on this board is to tickle your funny bone since it's always about you, isn't it?
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 14,087


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2013, 09:12:48 PM »

'Beowulf' is good. Who was apologizing for it?
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2013, 09:14:54 PM »

I think you need to clarify what the definition of "fetish" is.

I really wish you didn't ask him to do this...

I don't care if Scam if a self described Professor of Latinism Latin,

Fixed it for you.  No charge.  But, hardly self-described. I have credentials.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2013, 09:36:37 PM »

I think you need to clarify what the definition of "fetish" is.

I really wish you didn't ask him to do this...

I don't care if Scam if a self described Professor of Latinism Latin,

Fixed it for you.  No charge.  But, hardly self-described. I have credentials.

You are a high school teacher, so did that change?

I gotta bail. Maybe after the next holiday. I am getting weird redirects back to google from this site ATM.

If this manages to go through . . .
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2013, 09:42:27 PM »

Ancient works of literature like The Odyssey and Beowulf are just as full of profanity, violence, and sex, and yet they are hailed as classic works of art
The "guy" you refer to was Grendel a supernatural monster who has been killing people in King Hrothgar's hall for some time.

The apologies for the violence of Beowulf here demonstrate quite clearly the role of the fetish, if nearly every post around here about icons didn't already, or pretty much every post in the private forums.

And James, stop reading Beowulf. It's garbage and pointless. Much like the fans of the work it remains forever unproductive.

And what would do you like to read?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2013, 09:44:19 PM »

I suppose Beowulf with added sex would be more reproductive.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,424



« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2013, 09:51:10 PM »

'Beowulf' is good. Who was apologizing for it?

Perhaps my stating what the situation is in the poem, with quote, was somehow oddly construed as some form of "apology".   Rather understanding the characters, plot and general situation of a work can be most helpful in understanding it. 

If a person does not care for it, that is her/his personal opinion though one might wonder why it is held if no other information is given in explanation.

Do you have a favourite translation?  Have you read other works of Old English and/or Norse literature?
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,424



« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2013, 09:52:28 PM »

I suppose Beowulf with added sex would be more reproductive.


But it would hardly fit in the narrative....  Wink
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2013, 10:00:17 PM »

I suppose Beowulf with added sex would be more reproductive.


But it would hardly fit in the narrative....  Wink

That's not stopped Hollywood before. Smiley
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
WPM
Revolutionary Writer
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,549



« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2013, 10:01:33 PM »

I used to have the DVD movie.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 10:01:43 PM by WPM » Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,424



« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2013, 10:04:37 PM »

I suppose Beowulf with added sex would be more reproductive.


But it would hardly fit in the narrative....  Wink

That's not stopped Hollywood before. Smiley

I'll stick to the original work, thanks.   Smiley

I have seen part of the cg movie and there has been some ummmm wild embroidering might one say. 
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2013, 10:06:36 PM »

I suppose Beowulf with added sex would be more reproductive.


But it would hardly fit in the narrative....  Wink

That's not stopped Hollywood before. Smiley

I'll stick to the original work, thanks.   Smiley

I have seen part of the cg movie and there has been some ummmm wild embroidering might one say. 

You haven't seen anything until you see the version with Christoper Lambert.  Horrible, absolutely horrible!
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,424



« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2013, 10:15:21 PM »

I suppose Beowulf with added sex would be more reproductive.


But it would hardly fit in the narrative....  Wink

That's not stopped Hollywood before. Smiley

I'll stick to the original work, thanks.   Smiley

I have seen part of the cg movie and there has been some ummmm wild embroidering might one say.  

You haven't seen anything until you see the version with Christoper Lambert.  Horrible, absolutely horrible!

I just looked it up.  Oh,dear....  Talk about a movie 'loosely based on a title"....

To quote another literary work  "I would prefer not to." if it's all the same to you.   Cheesy
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 10:16:51 PM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,759


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2013, 01:46:57 AM »

He is not engaged in such acts to be a thug but to be a hero for others.

"Do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it?"

The same thing can be said about "violent" and "profane" forms of music such as hip-hop, where the violence and profanity is often used and interpreted as a way of rebelling against what the artist perceives as an oppressive society--such as NWA and police brutality, etc. Many of these rappers and rock stars are heroes for others. Ice Cube is a hero to Blacks; Eminem to Whites with crazy mothers, Marilyn Manson to depressed gothic kids.

The issue here is simply a double-standard. All the old farts in the world want to acknowledge their garbage as works of art and will go through great lengths to articulate lousily-crafted apologetics for these fetishes, but they won't do the same for modern garbage.

And I'd much rather listen to modern garbage that's at least relevant to my generation than to read ancient, irrelevant garbage that's been overly praised and fetishized by old farts who want to make their generation or culture or whatever seem more artistic or grand than it really was.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 01:51:17 AM by JamesR » Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,759


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2013, 01:59:09 AM »

And James, stop reading Beowulf. It's garbage and pointless.

Yeah it is. I thought that the excessive alliteration was cool at first, but for the most part, it just seems like a cheesy action movie put in writing, except, at least in the case of the former, there are cool visual graphics to occasionally make it interesting, whereas in the case of the latter, I have to waste my effort visualizing what I read.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
KostaC
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Chicago & the Diocese of Washington (Orthodox Church in America)
Posts: 192



« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2013, 02:26:48 AM »

Ancient works of literature like The Odyssey and Beowulf are just as full of profanity, violence, and sex, and yet they are hailed as classic works of art and virtually every Greek person alive has some type of fetish for The Odyssey and compares Odysseus to Christ?

The Hell'd you get that from? I couldn't care less about the Odyssey, the Iliad, or any other Archaic Greek work. Of the top of my head, I don't even know who wrote the Odyssey. Not every Greek cares at all about Ancient Greek history or culture, and the stereotype gets real old real fast. This is coming from someone who's minoring in Modern Greek (what can I say, I'm about that vernacular life); come back to me when you say every Greek loves Digenes Akritas: the Two-Blood Border-Lord and why it sucks, and then we can have an argument.

And where have you ever heard of anyone compare Odysseos to Jesus? That's an anachronism if I've ever heard one.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 02:29:12 AM by KostaC » Logged

«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,535


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2013, 06:17:33 AM »

All the old farts in the world want to acknowledge their garbage as works of art and will go through great lengths to articulate lousily-crafted apologetics for these fetishes, but they won't do the same for modern garbage.

Epics like the Odyssey are works of art, unlike rap.  Everyone can string together some profanities and wear golden chains, but I would be surprised to see those rappers rap their raps, comprising 24 books, in the dactylic hexameter.

Yes, there's also bad ancient literature. The Satyricon of Petronius is pretty bad.

Most of the bad literature from antiquity didn't survive. Rap probably won't survive the revolution of twenty centuries either.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 06:27:15 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,386



« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2013, 06:20:06 AM »

Don't listen to puritans when it comes to emancipation and don't listen to progressists when it comes to human values.
Logged

Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,424



« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2013, 06:08:05 PM »

He is not engaged in such acts to be a thug but to be a hero for others.

"Do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it?"

I'm sorry, could you explain what that line has to do with what I wrote, please?  Are you calling me a fool because I offered some information about the poem?  I do not recall ever making declarations against hip-hop or other recent forms of music, (though you might be surprised by some of what I have listened to and enjoyed).  

Also, you wrote that there was sex and profanity in Beowulf. What are you referring to, please and what translation?

Quote
The same thing can be said about "violent" and "profane" forms of music such as hip-hop, where the violence and profanity is often used and interpreted as a way of rebelling against what the artist perceives as an oppressive society--such as NWA and police brutality, etc. Many of these rappers and rock stars are heroes for others. Ice Cube is a hero to Blacks; Eminem to Whites with crazy mothers, Marilyn Manson to depressed gothic kids.

Thank you for giving some of your thoughts. This helps in understanding your point of view.  

Quote
The issue here is simply a double-standard. All the old farts in the world want to acknowledge their garbage as works of art and will go through great lengths to articulate lousily-crafted apologetics for these fetishes, but they won't do the same for modern garbage.

And I'd much rather listen to modern garbage that's at least relevant to my generation than to read ancient, irrelevant garbage that's been overly praised and fetishized by old farts who want to make their generation or culture or whatever seem more artistic or grand than it really was.

Would you please now explain what you mean by apologetics (which I do not think that explaining a particular character or situation is) and "fetish"?  

I certainly read a lot of different works and listen to a variety of music. There are some forms that I personally don't care for and that's all it is, my personal preference. I do not expect everyone to be like me.  So I do not have any "double-standard" in that regard.

What have you been exposed to that leads to such vehemence and name-calling?   Why call music or literature "garbage" at all?  

With respect,

Ebor

« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 06:08:42 PM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2013, 12:07:43 AM »

He is not engaged in such acts to be a thug but to be a hero for others.

"Do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it?"

The same thing can be said about "violent" and "profane" forms of music such as hip-hop, where the violence and profanity is often used and interpreted as a way of rebelling against what the artist perceives as an oppressive society--such as NWA and police brutality, etc. Many of these rappers and rock stars are heroes for others. Ice Cube is a hero to Blacks; Eminem to Whites with crazy mothers, Marilyn Manson to depressed gothic kids.

The issue here is simply a double-standard. All the old farts in the world want to acknowledge their garbage as works of art and will go through great lengths to articulate lousily-crafted apologetics for these fetishes, but they won't do the same for modern garbage.

And I'd much rather listen to modern garbage that's at least relevant to my generation than to read ancient, irrelevant garbage that's been overly praised and fetishized by old farts who want to make their generation or culture or whatever seem more artistic or grand than it really was.

Why argue with people who aren't here?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2014, 11:46:29 AM »

JamesR, to paraphrase a famous line about the art at the Louvre: Beowulf isn't on trial; you are.
Logged
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,838



« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2014, 10:55:56 AM »

The 13th Warrior was art.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.139 seconds with 69 queries.