Author Topic: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy  (Read 3079 times)

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Offline Ghazar

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Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« on: March 05, 2005, 01:05:56 AM »
Dear Brethren,

St. John of Damascus, takes the Armenian Church to task for inserting the words "Who was Crucified for us" in the Trisagion, thus making it a Christological prayer rather than a Trinitarian one.  Does any other OO Church do this as well?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2005, 08:07:48 AM »
I think every OO Church does this, since it is a bone of contention between our Churches, at least if Athos is to be believed.  It's interesting that the grammatical structure of the prayer in Greek as the Greeks pray it leads one to believe that only one person is being addressed. 
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Offline Stavro

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2005, 08:33:37 PM »
The Coptic Church definitely says "Who was Crucified for us" before " Who rose from the dead and ascended into heaven" and after "born of the Virgin" , and these are a very sound christological phrases that were used to fight Nestorianism, Arianism and many other heresies.

What is the EO version of the Trisagion ?
In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

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Offline J

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2005, 09:48:50 PM »
I thought that the Trisagion was the whole "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal" part, along with the "Most Holy Trinity have mercy on us, O Lord cleanse us..." wa ma ila thalek =)  Am I off on this?  It looks as if you all are discussing The Creed and not the Trisagion Prayers (but it is highly likely that I have no idea what I'm talking about).

Offline TonyS

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2005, 10:05:41 PM »
I thought that the Trisagion was the whole "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal" part, along with the "Most Holy Trinity have mercy on us, O Lord cleanse us..." wa ma ila thalek =) Am I off on this? It looks as if you all are discussing The Creed and not the Trisagion Prayers (but it is highly likely that I have no idea what I'm talking about).

Dear J,

Great question! It certainly does help to get terminology cleared up.

"The Trisagion" almost always means "Holy God, Holy Might, Holy Immortal (may have insert in some traditions), have mercy on us!" The "Usual Beginning" is like what is sounds like and starts' "Glory to Thee, O God..." and continues with the "Heavenly King" to the "Our Father." "The Trisagion prayers" are almost the same as the usual beginning (but start after the "Heavenly King" would). In Vespers we have both, the usual beginning at the beginning and the Trisagion prayers after the "Lord, now lettest Thou thy servant depart..."

In some OO Churches the seasonal interpolation was cause for suspicion of Theopaschism.

The "Sanctus" is the hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy Lord of Sabaoth...."

It seems the Greeks call a (short?) memorial just "Trisagion" or perhaps "a Trisagion."  I have heard some OCA clergy use this language.  The connection seems that "The Trisagion" is also the funeral procession hymn and is inscribed on coffins in some traditions, etc.  In the Russian usage I know, the funeral (after the initial blessing) starts with "The Trisagion." 

I hope this helps and does not confuse. (<probably wrong but I am trying)

TonyS
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Offline Thomas Daniel (Reji)

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2005, 03:00:15 AM »
Trisagion in Syriac Orthodox Church as follows

Leader: Holy art Thou, O God.

People:
Holy art Thou, Almighty;
Holy art Thou, Immortal;
+ Crucified for us, have mercy on us. (Thrice)

Leader: Lord, have mercy upon us,

People: Lord, be kind and have mercy;
Lord, accept our prayers and worship and have mercy on us.

Leader: Glory be to Thee, O God;

People: Glory be to Thee, O creator;
Glory be to Thee, O Christ, the King who does pity sinners, Thy servants.
Barekhmor (Syr.) means "bless my Lord"
Oh.. Morth Mariam Yoldath Aloho (Mother Of God)Pray For Us

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2005, 04:37:11 PM »
William,

All OO Churches insert who was crucified for us.

The Maronites Catholics insert this and other phrases like who was born of the Virgin for us, who was baptised for us, etc. depending on the feast and season.

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Offline Stavro

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2005, 05:36:20 PM »
Copts say it:

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal ...who was born from the Virgin, have mercy on us.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal... who was crucified for us, have mercy on us.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal... who rose from the dead and ascended to the heaven, have mercy on us.

J,
you know arabic ?
In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)

Offline J

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2005, 01:25:43 AM »
Yes, Stavros, I know Arabic.  You?

Offline Stavro

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2005, 04:19:17 PM »
Yes, J, I speak arabic fluently. I am egyptian.
In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)

Offline J

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2005, 04:59:00 PM »
La oheb al lehaja al Musriya, hahaha.  Heeya saaba jiden!  Or should I say, "lehega" and "giden" hahaha.  They only give us dialect for about two weeks per region, and that's only for Egyptian, Syrian/Levant and Iraqi/Gulf dialects.  We don't get anywhere near North African, but I'm told I should be grateful for that!  Other than the meager dialect courses, we learn strictly Fus'ha (MSA).  I actually have a few Coptic teachers, as well as several other OO teachers.

Offline Fortunatus

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2005, 11:17:56 PM »
+Irini nem ehmot

Copts will also change verses according to the season.

On Theophany we say "Who was baptised in the Jordan", on Great Thursday and Great Friday, it is only "Who was crucified for us", during the first 40 days leading up to the Ascension we only say "Who rose from the dead" etc...

On all normal days (and fasts) we sing the three verses Stavro has quoted above. :)

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Offline Ghazar

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Re: Trisagion in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2005, 09:09:05 PM »
We Armenians also have propers for different feasts:

Who was crucified for us
Who has risen from the dead
Who came and is to come
Who came to take Your mother the Virgin
Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Lazarus Der-Ghazarian,
Byzantine Catholic Church, Eparchy of Parma
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