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Author Topic: The Golden Sensor [Tai Shori]  (Read 1394 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pharaoh714
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« on: December 24, 2013, 12:43:33 PM »

Hello everyone, Peace of Christ to all and Merry Christmas even though its not until Jan 7th  Cheesy


I have a couple of Questions:

1. The Coptic Hymn Tai Shori (the Golden Sensor) is a very common hymn in the Coptic Church does anyone know where it originated from? Do other rites in the O.O sing this hymn? Example of the Hymn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KseCZfGm-NI

2. In the Coptic Rite the Golden sensor represent the Virgin Mary's Womb. The 3 chains represent the Holy Trinity. The top dome represent Heaven, the Bottom represents Earth and the charcoal when it burns represents Christ Divinity united with His humanity. The 12 bells represent the 12 Disciples and one of the bells don't ring. When the Priest insert the incense the sensor is opened that the top dome heaven is touching the lower one Earth symbolizing the Incarnation or the Ladder of Jacob etc.   Now my Question is how come in other traditions they use several Sensors? Does the sensor symbolize the same thing as the Copts or is it something different? Can anyone enlighten me please? Also how come in other traditions the deacons are the one using the Censor not the priest?



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Pharaoh714
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2013, 12:45:49 PM »

I am watching this lecture right now, Hopefully the speaker can answer the first one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7699ZGAlT8
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2013, 02:02:57 PM »

http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/content/books/liturgy.pdf

It's longer than you think:

Quote
This censer of pure gold,
bearing the sweet incense,
in the hands of Aaron the priest,
offering incense upon the altar,
before the mercy seat,
is the holy Virgin Mary;
Who brought forth Jesus Christ;
the Son and Logos.
The Holy Spirit came upon her,
purified her, sanctified her,
and filled her with grace.
Through her intercessions,
O Lord, grant us the forgiveness of our sins.

There's some more info on page 12.
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Salpy
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2013, 02:05:57 PM »

From what I understand the symbolism is similar in the Armenian Church, except I think there are four chains, representing the four Evangelists.  I'm not sure, though.  Maybe one of our members who serves at the altar can answer this.

Deacons can do censing during the liturgy in the Armenian Church, and I think that is why you can have more than one censer during a liturgy.  The priest uses the censer too.  For example, he censes the chalice when it comes to the altar. 

I don't know why the Coptic Church restricts censing to the priest only.  I think all the other traditions, both Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian, allow deacons to cense.  Please someone correct me if I am wrong.  I've always assumed that the practice of allowing deacons to cense is older, only because it is more widespread, but I could be wrong.  In the back of my mind I seem to think there was an Old Testament passage that restricted censing to priests, but I am not sure.  Perhaps that is why the Copts restrict censing to priests only?

Also, in the Armenian tradition, like in the EO tradition, lay persons burn incense at home.  My understanding is that Copts don't allow that, but I am not sure about other OO traditions.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 02:17:07 PM by Salpy » Logged

Pharaoh714
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2013, 02:21:17 PM »

From what I understand the symbolism is similar in the Armenian Church, except I think there are four chains, representing the four Evangelists.  I'm not sure, though.  Maybe one of our members who serves at the altar can answer this.

Deacons can do censing during the liturgy in the Armenian Church, and I think that is why you can have more than one censer during a liturgy.  The priest uses the censer too.  For example, he censes the chalice when it comes to the altar. 

I don't know why the Coptic Church restricts censing to the priest only.  I think all the other traditions, both Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian, allow deacons to cense.  Please someone correct me if I am wrong.  I've always assumed that the practice of allowing deacons to cense is older, only because it is more widespread, but I could be wrong.  In the back of my mind I seem to think there was an Old Testament passage that restricted censing to priests, but I am not sure.  Perhaps that is why the Copts restrict censing to priests only?

Also, in the Armenian tradition, like in the EO tradition, lay persons burn incense at home.  My understanding is that Copts don't allow that, but I am not sure about other OO traditions.

That's not true I know a lot of Copts including my mom who burn incense at home, but we don't have a sensor or anything like that. .
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2013, 02:24:31 PM »

it really bugs me that people can't spell "C-E-N-S-E-R". it's not hard. you can also say "THURIBLE".
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2013, 02:30:56 PM »

it really bugs me that people can't spell "C-E-N-S-E-R". it's not had. you can also say "THURIBLE".

We spell it Egyptian style  Cheesy Same with the P and B.. In Pishoy we spell it and say it Bishoy. Ill fix it for you Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2013, 02:32:08 PM »

The Coptic tradition allowed Deacons to cense until Pope Shenouda III fought against it. I believe the reason it was rejected is because what a Deacon is had been forgotten (hint: it isn't every 6 year old boy).

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests, but the Christian practice has always assigned the usage of incense to the priests and levites (deacons), though not interchangeably, they both have their prescribed times and ways of censing.

Censer is the thing Abouna swings. Sensor is something that detects, like the light sensors in your camera. Censor is Anba Bishoy.

The description of symbolism in the OP is meditation, not teaching. The censer came first, then someone came up with meditations about what the parts might represent. They are not rules. If, within a tradition, censers (for example) standardize in design around someone's meditation, that's ok... but it is not necessary, and there is nothing lesser in any other tradition for not doing it that way.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 02:42:03 PM by Jonathan » Logged
Pharaoh714
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2013, 02:45:24 PM »

The Coptic tradition allowed Deacons to sense until Pope Shenouda III fought against it. I believe the reason it was rejected is because what a Deacon is had been forgotten (hint: it isn't every 6 year old boy).

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests, but the Christian practice has always assigned the usage of incense to the priests and levites (deacons), though not interchangeably, they both have their prescribed times and ways of censing.

Censer is the thing Abouna swings. Sensor is something that detects, like the light sensors in your camera. Censor is Anba Bishoy.

The description of symbolism in the OP is meditation, not teaching. The censer came first, then someone came up with meditations about what the parts might represent. They are not rules. If, within a tradition, censers (for example) standardize in design around someone's meditation, that's ok... but it is not necessary, and there is nothing lesser in any other tradition for not doing it that way.


Thanks for the information, do you happen to know when the hymn originated?  [I mean when it was first used in the Coptic Church].
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« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2013, 02:47:27 PM »

The Coptic tradition allowed Deacons to sense until Pope Shenouda III fought against it. I believe the reason it was rejected is because what a Deacon is had been forgotten (hint: it isn't every 6 year old boy).

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests, but the Christian practice has always assigned the usage of incense to the priests and levites (deacons), though not interchangeably, they both have their prescribed times and ways of censing.

Censer is the thing Abouna swings. Sensor is something that detects, like the light sensors in your camera. Censor is Anba Bishoy.

The description of symbolism in the OP is meditation, not teaching. The censer came first, then someone came up with meditations about what the parts might represent. They are not rules. If, within a tradition, censers (for example) standardize in design around someone's meditation, that's ok... but it is not necessary, and there is nothing lesser in any other tradition for not doing it that way.


Thanks for the information, do you happen to know when the hymn originated?  [I mean when it was first used in the Coptic Church].

I'm afraid I don't know the origin of the hymn.
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2013, 02:49:00 PM »

http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/content/books/liturgy.pdf

It's longer than you think:

Quote
This censer of pure gold,
bearing the sweet incense,
in the hands of Aaron the priest,
offering incense upon the altar,
before the mercy seat,
is the holy Virgin Mary;
Who brought forth Jesus Christ;
the Son and Logos.
The Holy Spirit came upon her,
purified her, sanctified her,
and filled her with grace.
Through her intercessions,
O Lord, grant us the forgiveness of our sins.

There's some more info on page 12.
ok...we need to chant this whole hymn! Lol...I had no idea!
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2013, 02:49:58 PM »

http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/content/books/liturgy.pdf

It's longer than you think:

Quote
This censer of pure gold,
bearing the sweet incense,
in the hands of Aaron the priest,
offering incense upon the altar,
before the mercy seat,
is the holy Virgin Mary;
Who brought forth Jesus Christ;
the Son and Logos.
The Holy Spirit came upon her,
purified her, sanctified her,
and filled her with grace.
Through her intercessions,
O Lord, grant us the forgiveness of our sins.

There's some more info on page 12.
ok...we need to chant this whole hymn! Lol...I had no idea!

Agreed! The whole thing in quick tune is much better than a sentence fragment in long tune!
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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2013, 03:00:44 PM »

I am watching this lecture right now, Hopefully the speaker can answer the first one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7699ZGAlT8

It's good that he went to the Day of Atonement for understanding Atonement and Incarnation. It's too bad that he doesn't bring out from that any of the implications: Orthodoxy understanding of Atonement in place of the penal substitution that is so prevalent today, rather than just the typical explanations from the west. That the High Priest passing through the veil (the separation between the created Holy Place and the uncreated Holy of Holies) was a type of the Incarnation, and the veil is His flesh.  Also too bad there wasn't really anything about the censor, unless it was in the parts I skipped.
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« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2013, 03:01:58 PM »

The Coptic tradition allowed Deacons to cense until Pope Shenouda III fought against it. I believe the reason it was rejected is because what a Deacon is had been forgotten (hint: it isn't every 6 year old boy).

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests, but the Christian practice has always assigned the usage of incense to the priests and levites (deacons), though not interchangeably, they both have their prescribed times and ways of censing.

Censer is the thing Abouna swings. Sensor is something that detects, like the light sensors in your camera. Censor is Anba Bishoy.

The description of symbolism in the OP is meditation, not teaching. The censer came first, then someone came up with meditations about what the parts might represent. They are not rules. If, within a tradition, censers (for example) standardize in design around someone's meditation, that's ok... but it is not necessary, and there is nothing lesser in any other tradition for not doing it that way.
I've been to plenty of Coptic Churches, in Egypt and elsewhere, and lots of deacons (including the young boys) cense.  They don't swing it though, just blow the smoke off the incense.
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« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2013, 03:03:20 PM »

The Coptic tradition allowed Deacons to cense until Pope Shenouda III fought against it. I believe the reason it was rejected is because what a Deacon is had been forgotten (hint: it isn't every 6 year old boy).

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests, but the Christian practice has always assigned the usage of incense to the priests and levites (deacons), though not interchangeably, they both have their prescribed times and ways of censing.

Censer is the thing Abouna swings. Sensor is something that detects, like the light sensors in your camera. Censor is Anba Bishoy.

The description of symbolism in the OP is meditation, not teaching. The censer came first, then someone came up with meditations about what the parts might represent. They are not rules. If, within a tradition, censers (for example) standardize in design around someone's meditation, that's ok... but it is not necessary, and there is nothing lesser in any other tradition for not doing it that way.
I've been to plenty of Coptic Churches, in Egypt and elsewhere, and lots of deacons (including the young boys) cense.  They don't swing it though, just blow the smoke off the incense.

This was banned (rather than just restricted to deacons and not chanters&readers), and is very rare to see today.
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Pharaoh714
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« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2013, 03:05:43 PM »

The Coptic tradition allowed Deacons to cense until Pope Shenouda III fought against it. I believe the reason it was rejected is because what a Deacon is had been forgotten (hint: it isn't every 6 year old boy).

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests, but the Christian practice has always assigned the usage of incense to the priests and levites (deacons), though not interchangeably, they both have their prescribed times and ways of censing.

Censer is the thing Abouna swings. Sensor is something that detects, like the light sensors in your camera. Censor is Anba Bishoy.

The description of symbolism in the OP is meditation, not teaching. The censer came first, then someone came up with meditations about what the parts might represent. They are not rules. If, within a tradition, censers (for example) standardize in design around someone's meditation, that's ok... but it is not necessary, and there is nothing lesser in any other tradition for not doing it that way.
I've been to plenty of Coptic Churches, in Egypt and elsewhere, and lots of deacons (including the young boys) cense.  They don't swing it though, just blow the smoke off the incense.

Right, the deacons or alter servers are allowed to hold the censer but not cense. They are also responsible for cleaning it after every service.
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« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2013, 03:07:34 PM »

The Coptic tradition allowed Deacons to cense until Pope Shenouda III fought against it. I believe the reason it was rejected is because what a Deacon is had been forgotten (hint: it isn't every 6 year old boy).

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests, but the Christian practice has always assigned the usage of incense to the priests and levites (deacons), though not interchangeably, they both have their prescribed times and ways of censing.

Censer is the thing Abouna swings. Sensor is something that detects, like the light sensors in your camera. Censor is Anba Bishoy.

The description of symbolism in the OP is meditation, not teaching. The censer came first, then someone came up with meditations about what the parts might represent. They are not rules. If, within a tradition, censers (for example) standardize in design around someone's meditation, that's ok... but it is not necessary, and there is nothing lesser in any other tradition for not doing it that way.
I've been to plenty of Coptic Churches, in Egypt and elsewhere, and lots of deacons (including the young boys) cense.  They don't swing it though, just blow the smoke off the incense.

Right, the deacons or alter servers are allowed to hold the censer but not cense. They are also responsible for cleaning it after every service.

I think that what ialmisry is referring to is not the deacon bringing the censor to Abouna, or holding it while Abouna puts incense it or puts his hands over it, but the now defunct rite where the deacon (and in modern times, it was a reader) would carry the censor around the church by himself during the hymn of intercessions and blow incense out as he went.
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« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2013, 03:21:06 PM »

The Coptic tradition allowed Deacons to cense until Pope Shenouda III fought against it. I believe the reason it was rejected is because what a Deacon is had been forgotten (hint: it isn't every 6 year old boy).

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests, but the Christian practice has always assigned the usage of incense to the priests and levites (deacons), though not interchangeably, they both have their prescribed times and ways of censing.

Censer is the thing Abouna swings. Sensor is something that detects, like the light sensors in your camera. Censor is Anba Bishoy.

The description of symbolism in the OP is meditation, not teaching. The censer came first, then someone came up with meditations about what the parts might represent. They are not rules. If, within a tradition, censers (for example) standardize in design around someone's meditation, that's ok... but it is not necessary, and there is nothing lesser in any other tradition for not doing it that way.
I've been to plenty of Coptic Churches, in Egypt and elsewhere, and lots of deacons (including the young boys) cense.  They don't swing it though, just blow the smoke off the incense.

Right, the deacons or alter servers are allowed to hold the censer but not cense. They are also responsible for cleaning it after every service.

I think that what ialmisry is referring to is not the deacon bringing the censor to Abouna, or holding it while Abouna puts incense it or puts his hands over it, but the now defunct rite where the deacon (and in modern times, it was a reader) would carry the censor around the church by himself during the hymn of intercessions and blow incense out as he went.

I guess I learn something new everyday! Thanks.
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« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2013, 03:31:31 PM »

Yes, Pope Shenouda used the rebellion of Korah in Num 6 as justification for restricting it to the priests

Hmm. The same explanation was given by our Fr. Marcus here at St. Bishoy COC in Albuquerque as to why we are not allowed to burn incense at home. It's a bit odd, since the priests who have come from Egypt for the Holy Week during the past few years have brought gifts for the congregation, also including a little baggie of incense. Knowing I can't burn it, I just leave it sitting in the bag for lack of a better idea of what to do with it.  Undecided

Quote
Censer is the thing Abouna swings. Sensor is something that detects, like the light sensors in your camera. Censor is Anba Bishoy.

Hiyo! That famous Coptic humor on the display... Grin
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2013, 03:39:05 PM »

Quote
Knowing I can't burn it, I just leave it sitting in the bag for lack of a better idea of what to do with it.
Use it for toothaches. that's what old people in my old time sad incense was used for.
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« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2013, 04:35:36 PM »

Censer is the thing Abouna swings. Sensor is something that detects, like the light sensors in your camera. Censor is Anba Bishoy.

Hiyo! That famous Coptic humor on the display... Grin

 Grin laugh

I love it!
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« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2013, 11:31:18 AM »

Selam Pharaoh Smiley

you can also find it here:

 
Quote
118.
Deacon :
Arise for prayer.
People :
Lord have mercy upon us.
119
(a).
Priest :
(on the ordinary days)
You
are the golden censer
119
(b).
(But on great feasts and Sundays)
Priest:
Let us worship
(thrice)
People:
the Father and the Son and
the Holy Spirit, three in one
(thrice)
120.
Priest:
Peace be unto you.
People:
Holy church, dwelling place
of the Godhead.
121.
Priest :
Pray for us.
People:
Virgin Mary, Mother of God.
122.
Priest :
You are
People :
the golden censer which did
bear the coal of fire which the blessed took
from the sanctuary, and which forgives sin
and blots out error, Who is God’s Word,
Who was made man from you, Who offered
Himself to His Father as incense and an
acceptable sacrifice. We worship Thee,
Christ, with Thy good heavenly Father, and
the Holy Spirit, the life-giver, for Thou did
come and save us.

http://ethiopianorthodox.org/biography/englishethiopianliturgy.pdf   you can find it on page 29.




as you can see in the above the censer is the Theotokos and the coal of fire and the incense is Christ.
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« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2013, 11:54:01 AM »

Quote
Knowing I can't burn it, I just leave it sitting in the bag for lack of a better idea of what to do with it.
Use it for toothaches. that's what old people in my old time sad incense was used for.

lol yeah that is true for frankincense. its still used for that purpose as well as others, by traditional healers.

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« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2013, 01:27:14 PM »

Also, in the Armenian tradition, like in the EO tradition, lay persons burn incense at home.  My understanding is that Copts don't allow that, but I am not sure about other OO traditions.

Hiwot can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that lay people burning incense at home is also forbidden in the Ethiopian tradition.  At least, a good friend of mine who is a debtera used to really drop the hammer on some of the Western born converts in the EOTC I was attending when he found out that they were burning incense at home.
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« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2013, 02:34:54 PM »

Also, in the Armenian tradition, like in the EO tradition, lay persons burn incense at home.  My understanding is that Copts don't allow that, but I am not sure about other OO traditions.

Hiwot can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that lay people burning incense at home is also forbidden in the Ethiopian tradition.  At least, a good friend of mine who is a debtera used to really drop the hammer on some of the Western born converts in the EOTC I was attending when he found out that they were burning incense at home.

Antonious Smiley you are correct as far as I know laity are not allowed to burn incense for prayer at home. its true all sorts of incense is burned at home primarily frankincense.however,the incense burned at home is for its fragrance only and usually accompanies the traditional coffee ceremony.
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« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2013, 12:05:32 AM »

Also, in the Armenian tradition, like in the EO tradition, lay persons burn incense at home.  My understanding is that Copts don't allow that, but I am not sure about other OO traditions.

Hiwot can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that lay people burning incense at home is also forbidden in the Ethiopian tradition.  At least, a good friend of mine who is a debtera used to really drop the hammer on some of the Western born converts in the EOTC I was attending when he found out that they were burning incense at home.

I wonder if burning incense at home is allowed in the Syriac Tradition.
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« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2013, 12:32:17 PM »

we went to an eritrean restaurant once  Smiley and there was incense during the coffee preparation.
i don't know what religion the people were there, but they were able to find appropriate food during the fasting season, so i think there were some Christians there.

is it wrong for orthodox Christians (eritrean / ethiopian) to burn fragrant smelling stuff while making coffee?
i know we oriental orthodox don't burn incense in front of icons at home (we save that for church).
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« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2013, 01:02:32 PM »

In a related question : all these Assyrian usually owned shops in Chicago -Devon Av-sell these smaller censers. Imean smaller than those used in church . They appear to be manufactured in the Middle East somehow . Does anybody know why of for what purpose ?
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« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2013, 02:16:46 PM »

I wonder if burning incense at home is allowed in the Syriac Tradition.

Our tradition (Syriac as we have received it in India) concerning incense is basically along the following lines.  

In any liturgical service, only a bishop or a priest may bless and place incense in the censer because the offering of incense is considered a sacrificial act, and sacrifice is proper to the priesthood*.  If a bishop is present, whether or not he "leads" the service, he will offer the incense unless he specifically allows any priest(s) present to do so.  The only exception to this is in the case of a full deacon: if he is leading a service because there is no priest, he can offer incense but without blessing it.

While it is always the prerogative of the bishop/priest to cense (swinging the censer), this can and often is delegated to deacons.  Obviously, the best practice is to give this to a full deacon, but this is often "outsourced" to one of those in the minor orders.  They bring the censer to the priest, receive the incense, and are given a blessing, after which they cense the altar, the gospel, and the church and the people in order.  In the case of a full deacon offering incense (as I described above), he must do the censing himself because he cannot give a blessing in order to delegate the task to someone else.  

Incense is not burned at home in the context of prayer unless a priest or a full deacon is present.  Perhaps some might burn church incense over coals at home for the fragrance, but I think in India this is not done.  If any incense is burned at home for its fragrance, it is usually in the form of incense sticks.  The incense we use liturgically is pure frankincense, we don't use the perfumed stuff common among EO and some of the OO.  If we want to add fragrance to the liturgical incense, what I've seen done is the mixing of frankincense with crushed incense sticks: these are offered together in the censer.  



*I forgot to add this: when a priest is ordained in our tradition, after the bishop vests him, he presents the new priest with a censer and allows him to offer incense on his own for the first time as a priest.  In some traditions, the bishop will step aside and let the newly ordained complete the Liturgy, but in India it doesn't always happen that way. 
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« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2013, 03:24:16 PM »

we went to an eritrean restaurant once  Smiley and there was incense during the coffee preparation.
i don't know what religion the people were there, but they were able to find appropriate food during the fasting season, so i think there were some Christians there.

is it wrong for orthodox Christians (eritrean / ethiopian) to burn fragrant smelling stuff while making coffee?
i know we oriental orthodox don't burn incense in front of icons at home (we save that for church).

I think Hiwot covered that with his post above.

Antonious Smiley you are correct as far as I know laity are not allowed to burn incense for prayer at home. its true all sorts of incense is burned at home primarily frankincense.however,the incense burned at home is for its fragrance only and usually accompanies the traditional coffee ceremony.
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« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2013, 03:25:39 PM »

Thanks Mor!

So it seems the Armenians are the only OO's who burn incense at home for religious purposes.

My understanding of how it is done is that on Saturday night you are supposed to take the incense through all the rooms of the house while saying the Lord's Prayer.  At least that is what I have heard my priest instruct people to do.  I don't do it because I and my mom live together and she is very asthmatic.  I'm not aware of any rule in the Armenian Church forbidding the burning of incense at home in front of icons, but I don't think it is the usual custom.  Like Mabsoota said, I think that is something people see as reserved for church.
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« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2014, 07:27:11 AM »

Dn Mor,

Are you sure about the occassional mixing of crushed incense sticks with frankincense; I have heard a number of people prohibiting the same as incense sticks often use ingredients like cow dung as an inflammable base.



 
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« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2014, 07:34:03 AM »

Thanks Mor!

So it seems the Armenians are the only OO's who burn incense at home for religious purposes.

My understanding of how it is done is that on Saturday night you are supposed to take the incense through all the rooms of the house while saying the Lord's Prayer.  At least that is what I have heard my priest instruct people to do.  I don't do it because I and my mom live together and she is very asthmatic.  I'm not aware of any rule in the Armenian Church forbidding the burning of incense at home in front of icons, but I don't think it is the usual custom.  Like Mabsoota said, I think that is something people see as reserved for church.

Salpy,

I have seen incense being carried through all the rooms in the house, but it is usually done when there is some sort of infestation suspected or actual. I remember seeing this when ol' friend Chicken Pox made a visit and so on.  But yes it is rare in India.
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« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2014, 01:48:25 PM »

Quote
In any liturgical service, only a bishop or a priest may bless and place incense in the censer because the offering of incense is considered a sacrificial act, and sacrifice is proper to the priesthood*. 
I find this really interesting because in elementary EO books I've read this function of incense is purposefully downplayed or denied altogether and I've always found their alternate explanations wanting.
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« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2014, 04:04:17 PM »

Dn Mor,

Are you sure about the occassional mixing of crushed incense sticks with frankincense; I have heard a number of people prohibiting the same as incense sticks often use ingredients like cow dung as an inflammable base. 

If that is the case, then I wasn't aware of it.  Neither, apparently, are any number of churches here which do such things (which is why I said it's what I've seen done, not necessarily that this is "the tradition"). 

Cow dung...that's horrible.  So is cherry wine, which I once saw a priest use for Christmas Liturgy (I didn't realise it until it was beyond too late): to be fair to him, though, he was a recent immigrant and depended on one of the parishioners to know what to do (he didn't).     
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« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2014, 04:04:53 PM »

Quote
In any liturgical service, only a bishop or a priest may bless and place incense in the censer because the offering of incense is considered a sacrificial act, and sacrifice is proper to the priesthood*. 
I find this really interesting because in elementary EO books I've read this function of incense is purposefully downplayed or denied altogether and I've always found their alternate explanations wanting.

How do they describe the function of incense? 
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« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2014, 12:51:29 AM »

Quote
In any liturgical service, only a bishop or a priest may bless and place incense in the censer because the offering of incense is considered a sacrificial act, and sacrifice is proper to the priesthood*.  
I find this really interesting because in elementary EO books I've read this function of incense is purposefully downplayed or denied altogether and I've always found their alternate explanations wanting.

How do they describe the function of incense?  
They (again, elementary EO "introduction" texts that I've read) emphasize the symbolic nature of incense, such as it representing the prayers of the saints, and either ignore or deny that it is a sacrifice. Some go so far as to say it "represents an offering," but they are clearly skirting around calling it an offering.  Tongue
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« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2014, 02:58:45 AM »

They (again, elementary EO "introduction" texts that I've read) emphasize the symbolic nature of incense, such as it representing the prayers of the saints, and either ignore or deny that it is a sacrifice. Some go so far as to say it "represents an offering," but they are clearly skirting around calling it an offering.  Tongue

Funny, the Liturgy doesn't have such qualms:

Quote
We offer You incense, O Christ our God, for a perfume of spiritual fragrance. Receive it upon Your heavenly Altar, and send down upon us in turn the grace of Your all-Holy Spirit.

Source

It's certainly not as pronounced as it is in the Syriac or Coptic traditions (I suppose you could argue it's slightly downplayed), but the same idea of incense as a sacrificial offering is present in the Byzantine tradition.   
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« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2014, 11:17:30 AM »

They (again, elementary EO "introduction" texts that I've read) emphasize the symbolic nature of incense, such as it representing the prayers of the saints, and either ignore or deny that it is a sacrifice. Some go so far as to say it "represents an offering," but they are clearly skirting around calling it an offering.  Tongue

Funny, the Liturgy doesn't have such qualms:

Quote
We offer You incense, O Christ our God, for a perfume of spiritual fragrance. Receive it upon Your heavenly Altar, and send down upon us in turn the grace of Your all-Holy Spirit.

Source

It's certainly not as pronounced as it is in the Syriac or Coptic traditions (I suppose you could argue it's slightly downplayed), but the same idea of incense as a sacrificial offering is present in the Byzantine tradition.   
I agree, I just think that a lot of introductory texts "soften" such facts in order to appeal to a less liturgically-minded audience and that this is unfortunate. This is limited to the "offering" of incense.
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« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2014, 01:11:44 PM »

I agree, I just think that a lot of introductory texts "soften" such facts in order to appeal to a less liturgically-minded audience and that this is unfortunate. This is limited to the "offering" of incense.

I haven't noticed that, but I haven't read too many "introductory texts" either, and I wasn't really looking for such things in them anyway.  Tongue 

That said, I agree with you.  It makes no sense to "soften" this concept to ease the concerns of a less liturgical audience when there's still a whole liturgical edifice to explain and, if necessary, defend.  At least the idea of incense as a sacrifice is plainly Scriptural. 
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« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2014, 04:27:49 PM »


This one's for Dhzeremi  Smiley

http://youtu.be/fDIKjbDWtLk
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« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2014, 05:21:31 PM »


This one's for Dhzeremi  Smiley

http://youtu.be/fDIKjbDWtLk

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« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2014, 11:00:26 AM »


 Grin !يا شاطر
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« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2014, 11:54:58 AM »

Guys,

Pursuant to forum rules, can you give us a translation? 

Thanks.   Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2014, 12:15:58 PM »

Hey, I though you were only on the night shift  Grin

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