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Author Topic: My opinion on the Catholic Church  (Read 7092 times) Average Rating: 0
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go_reds5
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« on: March 03, 2005, 05:24:47 PM »

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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2005, 05:57:00 PM »

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"The Orthodox patriarch of Constantinople accepted the believes of the monophysites (herecy which accepts that Christ was not all human and all divine but he was only human or only divine) to avoid a Schism in Constantinople. The Pope, bishop of Rome, prevented the heretic mistake of the Orthodox patriarch." -Greek History book, 1st Grade of Senior High School

This isn't accurate. But if it was, you might just as well ask why the Roman Church was in communion with Constantinople for hundreds of years without saying a word about this complicity. At times, certain bishops and Emperors of the Byzantine empire were more friendly with monophysitic thought than others... but obviously this was not carried over generation after generation. The above quoted statement would be like someone saying that the Church of Rome were monothelitic (heretical) since Honorius (post-humously condemned at the 6th Ecumenical Council) was monothelitic. Whatever Pope Honorius' beliefs, obviously the Roman Church did not continue, and does not now publically affirm, monothelitism. And, neither does Constantinople affirm monophysitic beliefs.

Quote
Also, the Western Holy Fathers had accepted that the Spirit proceeds from the Son as well.
The Wester Holy Fathers were accepted by the Council of Constantinople (841 A.D. I think...)

I'm not sure which council in particular you have in mind, but there were quite a few that were held in Constantinople that were later overturned. Perhaps you are thinking of the Council which condemned St. Photius in 869, which the Catholics count as the 8th Ecumenical Council. However, this council was overturned at the Council of 879, which the Orthodox accept as an authoritative (and possibly Ecumenical) Council. Whatever the case, the Orthodox have never accepted the filioque, and neither did most Roman Popes accept it during the 9th century and earlier.
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2005, 06:30:13 PM »

<slips on mod hat>

OK, first of all, this doesn't really go here, I don't think; this topic would be more at home in the Orthodox/Catholic board.

<slips off mod hat, since he's moved this to said board>

Secondly, I think that "the Pope, bishop of Rome, prevented the heretic mistake of the Orthodox patriarch" because he, as an Orthodox bishop, had every right to call his fellow bishop on this, especially as the first among equals and supreme bishop (which is not the same as primacy), and even more especially since he was backed by other patriarchs.

Glad to have you here.

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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2005, 06:32:47 PM »

I assume you will be a Greek Catholic priest since upon your joining the Catholic Church you automatically became a member of the Greek Catholic Church?

Based on how you phrased your post, I don't think you're sure of your conversion--if you were you wouldn't be posting on this forum about it, but would rather just be going about your happy new Catholic life. That is, unless you came here to try and convert us.

I was once a Catholic and know that it is not the true Church (despite my respect for it). The Orthodox Church is.

At any rate, quoting a high school book isn't going to do much when many of us are very well-read, are seminary students, are priests, etc. You will have to do better than that. If you want a real discussion, great, but don't quote things that are beneath us.

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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2005, 06:49:34 PM »

Apparently I misread the original post, as I somehow thought it said "avoided" rather than "prevented" when it came to "the heretic mistake of the Orthodox patriarch". Sorry about that!
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2005, 07:02:26 PM »

  Shocked I don't remember a big "O" conversion to the Church of Rome on this forum.

Oh well, I guess "Strange Days have found us" - The Doors   Cool

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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2005, 07:55:52 PM »

"Esy eisai Petros, kai panw se afth thn petra tha oikodomiso thn Ekklesia mou kai den tha thn katanikhsoun oi dynameis tou Adh. Tha sou dwsw ta kleidia pou anoigoun thn porta ths vasilias ton ouranwn, kai oti krathseis asygxwrhto sth gh tha einai asygxwrhto kai stous ouranous. Kai oti sygxwrhseis sthn gh tha einai sygxwremeno kai stous ouranous." KATA MAT8AION 16:18-20

"The Orthodox patriarch of Constantinople accepted the believes of the monophysites (herecy which accepts that Christ was not all human and all divine but he was only human or only divine) to avoid a Schism in Constantinople. The Pope, bishop of Rome, prevented the heretic mistake of the Orthodox patriarch." -Greek History book, 1st Grade of Senior High School

Also, the Western Holy Fathers had accepted that the Spirit proceeds from the Son as well.
The Wester Holy Fathers were accepted by the Council of Constantinople (841 A.D. I think...)


I was Greek Orthodox. I conveted almost a year ago and now I wish to become a Catholic priest.
I've got enough proof to convince myself the Catholic Church is correct. What do you think?

Best of luck, I wish you well.

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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2005, 09:37:44 PM »

http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/responsestopa.htm
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2005, 01:36:35 AM »

I could say "The evil one has struck again", but rather think our new friend should stick to baseball and check back with us when he can grow a real priest's beard (and learn which 'councils' constitute his "evidence") Wink
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2005, 03:28:53 AM »

To me the most significant part of Orthodoxy when compared to Catholicism is the teachings of Saint Gregory Palamas.  If you take the view of Aquinas (the RC view) that grace is created - can that grace save you?  Is that not an extension of the Arian heresy that called our very redeemer and Lord created?  Orthodoxy is the only hospital in which the soul can be saved, because the incarnate Lord himself through his uncreated energies redeems and heals us.  Can you reach theosis through "created grace"?

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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2005, 09:42:25 AM »

I was Greek Orthodox. I conveted almost a year ago and now I wish to become a Catholic priest.
I've got enough proof to convince myself the Catholic Church is correct. What do you think?

Respectfully, I'm going to have to disagree.  Nothing in your post gives any "proof" or "evidence" of the above statement.  Citing a 1st grade text book, written by a lay person for 6 year olds, just doesn't cut it.

If I walked into Court with this kind of "proof" to prove my case, I'd be in deep doo doo.
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2005, 09:44:53 AM »

Folks, it seems O'Aristokles should probably not post replies between midnight and 5 AM.

go_reds5, you are right! The Catholic Church is correct.

Which is why I remain Orthodox. It's those poor Roman Catholics who have problems.  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2005, 01:43:36 PM »

Respectfully, I'm going to have to disagree. Nothing in your post gives any "proof" or "evidence" of the above statement. Citing a 1st grade text book, written by a lay person for 6 year olds, just doesn't cut it.

[poke]I think what go_reds5 said was it was a book for the 1st grade of senior high school, which perhaps refers to our 9th grade, about 14 years old.  Resume...[/poke]
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2005, 03:26:13 PM »

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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2005, 03:35:37 PM »

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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2005, 03:41:52 PM »

You didn't address the points that I raised about created Grace.
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2005, 03:53:26 PM »

[poke]I think what go_reds5 said was it was a book for the 1st grade of senior high school, which perhaps refers to our 9th grade, about 14 years old.  Resume...[/poke]

Still inadmissible (as I bang my gavel on my desk!!!)  Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2005, 03:59:59 PM »

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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2005, 04:02:55 PM »

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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2005, 04:05:40 PM »



Still inadmissible (as I bang my gavel on my desk!!!) Grin Grin Grin

Hehe...if this is his 'evidence' I think his client will get "the chair" <grin>
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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2005, 04:12:57 PM »

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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2005, 04:16:35 PM »

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**P.S: In my opinion the Orthodox Church is NOT the true one. It is only 1/2 of the true church. The other 1/2 lies in Rome. No church was created after the Schism, but the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church was divided in two Holy Catholic and Apostolic Churches.

Man, the Latins are going to love you.  Wink

Aquinas is no saint of mine. Blessed Augustine is venerated, but with reserve (he couldn't even read Greek).

Perhaps you'd best learn to translate Greek in a manner that does not a priori support your strawman.

Start with +¢+ƒ+ô+ƒ+ú first...

The rest of your FAQs are opinion, unsupported outside of the Roman communion.

You want to leave the Church? Fine, see ya!

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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2005, 04:20:59 PM »

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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2005, 04:28:42 PM »

Quote
You want to leave the Church? Fine, see ya!

I find this attitude almost as disconcerting as go_reds blasphemy in his last post.

I think everyone needs to just step away from this thread, for the sake of those who are preparing for Great Lent and those in the midst of it. 
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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2005, 04:30:44 PM »

Excuse me,  "Hell-screamin' and cussin' RC punk!"
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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2005, 04:34:09 PM »

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Excuse me,  "Hell-screamin' and cussin' RC punk!"

I just find it disconcerting that someone who is as active an Orthodox Christian as yourself would tell someone, "Don't let the door hit your...", that's all.  It saddens me.

As for that little catchphrase, apparently you don't remember the circumstances behind my using it Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2005, 04:36:57 PM »

go_reds5,

I hope you weren't insulted by anything I may have written, because I was just have some playful banter with another member.

However, I really should advise you that I think (as a matter of course) you should have pretty much expected what you got when you posted your very first post.

There are many here that are 10000% more knowlegdeable than I am and people who are certainly more devout.  How do you expect people to react when, you, unknown and unprevoked challenge their faith with, at best, dubious evidence and sources.

Were you expecting the welcome wagon?

In fact, given some of your statements, I think many here have been very gracious.

I'll leave the theological debate to many who are far more educated and knowledgeable than myself.
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2005, 04:39:10 PM »

Saddens me too when an Orthodox leaves the Church and then comes back to throw rocks. I've NO patience with that, none, nil, nada...

As to catchphrase, I'm too old to remember what I had for breakfast yesterday <grin>
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« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2005, 04:43:20 PM »

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Saddens me too when an Orthodox leaves the Church and then comes back to throw rocks. I've NO patience with that, none, nil, nada...

Understood.  I apologize if I came across as a bit harsh.  It jsut reminds me of my future mother-in-laws tirade about a friend of her husband who became a JW after being raised as a good Irish Catholic boy.  It was so vitriolic, I had to leave the table before I lost my patience Smiley

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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2005, 04:46:46 PM »

Send him by my house...the JWs around here avoid me like the plague!
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« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2005, 04:51:52 PM »

Haha...when I lived in DC, there was a Kingdom Hall two blocks from my house.  Twice a month they used to come by the house...that is until I was home that day and answered the door with a beer in one hand and a cigarette in the other, shirtless, with my hair sticking straight up from having just woke up from a nap a moment beforehand.

They never came back. Smiley  I never even got to engage them in conversation.  A pity.
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« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2005, 05:01:43 PM »

My parish used to be a Kingdom Hall...no joke  Shocked
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« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2005, 05:08:53 PM »

Concerning your quotes about the Filioque:

The Spirit proceeds from the Father, through the Son. There is a difference between eternal origin and temporal procession. Ss. Athanasius', Cyrillus' and Epiphanius' quotes can correspond to this. Concerning Didymus' quote: of course the HS doesn't proceed from itself, but eternally from the Father and temporally through the Son.

Concerning your quotes from Scripture about the "Spirit of the Son":
The Spirit proceeds from the Father, through the Son. There is a difference between eternal origin and temporal procession. When seen through this lense, the Scripture verses make sense when the call the HS the "Spirit of the Son."

Concerning your quotes about Peter and "the Rock":
The Rock is Peter, insofar as he maintains his confession of Christ, who is the True and Original Rock. If the faith gets tossed, so does St. Peter's status as Rock. The Pope of Rome threw the Faith out with, among other things, the filioque and created grace, so he's no longer a viable successor to St. Peter. The Patriarch of Antioch, however--who was put in place by St. Peter before the Bishop of Rome was--still is.
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« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2005, 05:10:21 PM »

I have a good friend whose brother is a paranoid schizophrenic (the family is also Greek Orthodox).  The mentally disturbed brother actually chased two JW off his property with a hockey stick once, claiming they were devils.

I can assure you, his reasoning for chasing had NO religious basis, but it was effective... they never came back either. Wink
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« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2005, 05:30:05 PM »

Concerning your quotes about Peter and "the Rock":
The Rock is Peter, insofar as he maintains his confession of Christ, who is the True and Original Rock.  If the faith gets tossed, so does St. Peter's status as Rock.  The Pope of Rome threw the Faith out with, among other things, the filioque and created grace, so he's no longer a viable successor to St. Peter.  The Patriarch of Antioch, however--who was put in place by St. Peter before the Bishop of Rome was--still is.
I ran into a couple of interesting quotes on this recently...
"Upon this firmness, He says, I shall raise My Temple, and it will rise upon the steadfastness of this faith, and the loftiness of My Church will mingle with the heavens.  The gates of Hades shall not master this profession..."St. Pope Leo
"Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock from which thou didst receive thy name, that is, upon Me Myself, I will build My Church.  Upon this perfection of faith which thou didst confess I will build My Church, and if anyone turns aside from the society of this confession, even though it may seem to him that he does great things, he will not belong to the building which is My Church."
-St. Bede
I found it very interesting that St. Leo and St. Bede, both of whom were, by the standards of their times, big supporters of the papacy, should have interpreted the "Rock" as the confession of faith rather than as St. Peter himself.  Even St. Cyprian, who interpreted the passage in exactly the way the modern RC's do, still saw it as only supporting the authority of each bishop, rather than that of one overarching bishop.  He said, "The authority of the bishops forms a unity, of which each holds his part in its totality."
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« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2005, 06:01:45 PM »

Not by converting or prosylitising Orthodox to the Catholic Church but to perform a friendly chat.

Forgive me, but the thread that you started and its tone really cannot be characterized by "friendly chat" at all. Your post was a deliberate challenge, and really a rather lacking one. Most of us have heard these arguments before, and the counter-arguments, over and over. Do not think that you are the first to have the knowledge you do, or that we are ignorant of it. Again, forgive me.

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« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2005, 06:15:26 PM »

Good post & points lellimore, it seems that there is some prayers within the Liturgy of the Hours(1976 +) on the Celebration of the Chair of St. Peter expresses the point of the confession of faith by Peter is the rock.

However, many feel that it is a concession to the separated brethern, Protestants.

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« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2005, 06:47:00 PM »

Concerning your quotes about the Filioque:

The Spirit proceeds from the Father, through the Son. There is a difference between eternal origin and temporal procession. Ss. Athanasius', Cyrillus' and Epiphanius' quotes can correspond to this. Concerning Didymus' quote: of course the HS doesn't proceed from itself, but eternally from the Father and temporally through the Son.

Thanks for this explanation! But could I ask a clarification on this, from you or anyone else? So in a quote like this:
"No one knows the Spirit but for the Father and the Son, the two from which It proceeds and recieves"
Epiphanius (374 AD), Epiphanius and other Fathers who may have said similar things mean that the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, but only temporally through the Son, and eternally through the Father? Also, does Catholicism hold that the HS proceeds from both the Father and the Son eternally? Thanks!
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« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2005, 03:06:33 PM »

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« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2005, 03:14:36 PM »

I was intending to hear the Orthodox opinion. That's all. I'm not throwing rocks or anything.

I once again plea for someone to delete this topic. Thank you and once again God bless you all!
 Smiley

P.S. And that means you Nektarios, delete the topic please!!! Tongue

No, we don't delete topics.  One must stand by what he writes.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2005, 03:14:57 PM by Anastasios » Logged

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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
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« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2005, 04:29:31 PM »

I must have a little medicinal mixture of T & T to make sense of this mess.

james
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« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2005, 11:52:41 PM »

James,

What's T & T?


Wondering,
Aaron
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« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2005, 12:01:45 AM »

Quote
James,

What's T & T?


Wondering,
Aaron

here's betting at least one of those T's stands for Tecate. Smiley
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hmmmm...
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« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2005, 12:54:32 AM »

LOL  laugh  I would hope that the Tecate would be served with a lime wedge and some salt!  Afro
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« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2005, 01:16:05 AM »

So in a quote like this:

Quote
"No one knows the Spirit but for the Father and the Son, the two from which It proceeds and recieves" Epiphanius (374 AD)

Epiphanius and other Fathers who may have said similar things mean that the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, but only temporally through the Son, and eternally through the Father?  Also, does Catholicism hold that the HS proceeds from both the Father and the Son eternally?

We would say that the initial overall (and the eventual complete) consensus of the Church would be what you just stated: that the HS proceeds eternally from the Father but temporally from the Son.  To my knowledge, the RCC does teach that the Spirit proceeds eternally from both.

here's betting at least one of those T's stands for Tecate. Smiley

And here's betting the other one stands for tequila.   Grin

A medication I'd most gladly have along with you, hermano.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 01:18:06 AM by Pedro » Logged

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