Author Topic: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?  (Read 3062 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aaron6127

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
"As a pilot calls on winds and a storm-tossed mariner looks homeward, so the times call on you to win your way to God. As God's athlete, be sober; the stake is immortality and eternal life." - St. Ignatius, Epistle to Polycarp

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,898
  • Faith: without works is dead.
  • Jurisdiction: Dark Night of the Soul.
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2013, 09:08:09 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

All hail and agree with AGABUS! the God of this website.

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Santagranddad

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,198
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2013, 09:20:00 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.

Offline Aaron6127

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 10:06:37 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.
I didn't mean to sound like I necessarily believed that he was a saint, or even Orthodox, I just brought it up as an example to my question. 
"As a pilot calls on winds and a storm-tossed mariner looks homeward, so the times call on you to win your way to God. As God's athlete, be sober; the stake is immortality and eternal life." - St. Ignatius, Epistle to Polycarp

Offline frjohnmorris

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,177
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 10:24:26 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.
I didn't mean to sound like I necessarily believed that he was a saint, or even Orthodox, I just brought it up as an example to my question. 

Given the poor state of communications in that time, I doubt that many in England knew a whole lot about the events in Constantinople in 1054.  However, the Pope did support William the Conquer, who did reorganize the English Church strengthening the ties to Rome by replacing all the old English Bishops with men whose loyalty to Rome was unquestionable so there is kernel of truth to this story. King Herald's daughter Gytha fled to Kiev where she married Grand Prince Vladimir Monomakh, who, of course was Orthodox.
 
Fr. John W. Morris
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 10:48:32 PM by frjohnmorris »

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,898
  • Faith: without works is dead.
  • Jurisdiction: Dark Night of the Soul.
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 10:38:49 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.
I didn't mean to sound like I necessarily believed that he was a saint, or even Orthodox, I just brought it up as an example to my question. 

The Pope did support William the Conquer, who did replace all the old English Bishops with men whose loyalty to Rome was unquestionable so there is kernel of truth to this story. King Herald's daughter Gytha fled to Kiev where she married Grand Prince Vladimir Monomakh.

Fr. John W. Morris
Woe be unto me to dispute an actual historian such as yourself, but  -- and I know this is not your assertion -- is there reason to believe anyone in the Isles at that time considered themselves anything other than Catholic, albeit low-papalists?
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

All hail and agree with AGABUS! the God of this website.

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,980
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 10:44:25 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

No, it's not nonsense.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,980
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 10:46:20 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.
I didn't mean to sound like I necessarily believed that he was a saint, or even Orthodox, I just brought it up as an example to my question. 

He can be considered Orthodox as England was, during his reign, not in a good relationship with the new papacy. As for being a saint, well several are those martyrs whose lives were not necessarily exemplary, but they showed their mettle where it came down to the important matters.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline frjohnmorris

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,177
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 10:52:18 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.
I didn't mean to sound like I necessarily believed that he was a saint, or even Orthodox, I just brought it up as an example to my question. 

The Pope did support William the Conquer, who did replace all the old English Bishops with men whose loyalty to Rome was unquestionable so there is kernel of truth to this story. King Herald's daughter Gytha fled to Kiev where she married Grand Prince Vladimir Monomakh.

Fr. John W. Morris
Woe be unto me to dispute an actual historian such as yourself, but  -- and I know this is not your assertion -- is there reason to believe anyone in the Isles at that time considered themselves anything other than Catholic, albeit low-papalists?

No, but there is strong evidence of Eastern, perhaps, Coptic, influence on Celtic monasticism.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,980
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 10:53:25 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.
I didn't mean to sound like I necessarily believed that he was a saint, or even Orthodox, I just brought it up as an example to my question. 

The Pope did support William the Conquer, who did replace all the old English Bishops with men whose loyalty to Rome was unquestionable so there is kernel of truth to this story. King Herald's daughter Gytha fled to Kiev where she married Grand Prince Vladimir Monomakh.

Fr. John W. Morris
Woe be unto me to dispute an actual historian such as yourself, but  -- and I know this is not your assertion -- is there reason to believe anyone in the Isles at that time considered themselves anything other than Catholic, albeit low-papalists?

Yes, that is another matter entirely. No one in the East considered Westerners papalists until a few generations after the schism at least. While the reality of the schism (and the heresy) was there, it took a long time for an understanding to develop, for the reality to take expression.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,268
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 11:51:16 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.
I didn't mean to sound like I necessarily believed that he was a saint, or even Orthodox, I just brought it up as an example to my question. 

Given the poor state of communications in that time, I doubt that many in England knew a whole lot about the events in Constantinople in 1054.  However, the Pope did support William the Conquer, who did reorganize the English Church strengthening the ties to Rome by replacing all the old English Bishops with men whose loyalty to Rome was unquestionable so there is kernel of truth to this story. King Herald's daughter Gytha fled to Kiev where she married Grand Prince Vladimir Monomakh, who, of course was Orthodox.
 
Fr. John W. Morris
This topic has come up before:
Like Scandinavia? England? I mention those because Scandinavians and Angles were both in Constantinople in the 11th century, even having Churches in New Rome, and no one seems to have questioned that they were under the jurisdiction of Old Rome, not New Rome.  Ethiopia, from Balsamon and Zonoras' viewpoint outside the established Church, was, and is, always under Alexandria, not Constantinople.
The Varangians of Byzantium By Benedict Benedikz, Sigfús Blöndal
http://books.google.com/books?id=vFRug14ui7gC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Varangian+Church+in+Constantinople&source=bl&ots=Wkqq67PUmm&sig=PB3rMuG6as1LFP2u-aj2lPy0e9g&hl=en&ei=kefVS6fWEYWoNs6DvdID&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=English%20Church%20in%20constantinople&f=false
An interesting article..... after the Great Schism 0f 1054 and the Continental Norman invasion of Britain a few years later in 1066, many of the Anglo-Saxon and Scottish nobility and military fled as refugees to Constantinople... the Patriarch accepted them as Orthodox and assigned a church for their use where they would have celebrated (probably?) the Sarum Rite.

English Refugees in the Byzantine Armed Forces:  The Varangian Guard and Anglo-Saxon Ethnic Consciousness

 By Nicholas C.J. Pappas


Sam Houston State University

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/pappas1.htm




Thank you for the link.  The question of how many went is one that is not easily answered.  However, it is certainly recorded that many of the Anglo-Saxons did not leave.  Indeed Edgar Atheling, whom many thought the rightful heir to King Edward as the last male of the line of Cerdic of Wessex, after becoming an adult in England and going on various ventures in such places as Sicily (Norman ventures), Scotland and Jerusalem died in England.  

I'm puzzled at the idea of the Scottish leaving since Scotland was at that time an independent country. Also as a side note Edgar's Sister married King Malcolm III and is now St. Margaret of Scotland. Her daughter Edith (aka Matilda) married Henry I of England.

/history geeking

Ebor

modified to correct a spelling error
LOL. You answered your own question: Margaret got the "St." part by vigorously making the last remnants of Celtic traditions conform to the program dictated by the Vatican, which included Angliczation (she introduced English at court; cf. Pope Adrian IV and his papal bull Lauddabiliter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudabiliter and the Irish crusade).  Btw, it is interesting how much the "Gregorian Reforms" were involved with institutionalizing Ultramontanism and the schism from Orthodoxy throughout the Patriarchate of the West.  The old St. Joseph Missal goes mentions her "services" to the church in this, without specifying against whom and what was done.

Quote
When his wife died around 1069, he [King Malcom III of Scotland] married Margaret, Edgar Atheling’s sister. Edgar would have become King of England if William the Conqueror from Normandy had not invaded the country. They had six sons, three of them (Edgar, Alexander and David) would be kings.

Margaret introduced English customs and language into the Scottish court and also church procedure but she never learnt Gaelic, which was the language spoken by many Scots at that time.

Her son, Kind David I built a small church inside Edinburgh Castle which was dedicated to her memory; the church is known as St. Margaret’s Chapel and it’s the oldest building in the castle.


In 1071 Malcolm was forced to sign the Treaty of Abernethy; and his son Duncan became a hostage in England. This happened as a result of the large number of English exiles who gathered in the court and also due to Malcolm’s raids into Northumbria and Cumbria.

Despite the worries of the English king, Malcolm made two more raids into England in 1079 and 1091 and once more he lost and had to submit to the English king.

After the English had driven out the Scots from their hold on Cumbria, Malcolm headed a final incursion in 1093. This led to his defeat and death at Alnwick. His son and heir Edward died in the same battle and Queen Margaret died in Edinburgh Castle four days later. She was later canonized for her patronage of the church.
http://www.scotlandinargentina.com.ar/bio-malcolm3ing.htm
The truth of the matter is until the collapse of the Roman Empire the Orthodox Church was entirely Roman.
Actually no. Armenia and Ethiopia were Orhtodox by anyone's definition at least until 451, but not part of the Empire. The Greek accounts of the conversion of Georgia state explicitely that Constantine stated a preference for the expansion of the Church rather than his empire.  Ireland and Scotland were never Roman, but they were once Orthodox. The English Church arose in post Roman Britain: refugees from the 1054 schism imposition by the Normans came to Constantinople, such that the Emperor had a recruiting office in London for the Varangian Guard.  The Empire of the West fell, but the Hispanic, Gallic, North African, etc. Churches remained Orthodox for some time.  And Norway and the rest of Scandinavian entered Orthodoxy, but was carried away by schism. And then there is the issue that with the rise of the Caliphate, three Patriarchs and often the archbishop of Cyprus found themselves outside the Empire.

But I agree: good order as the manifestation of the unity of the universal Orthodox Church is the issue.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Aaron6127

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2013, 12:48:54 AM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.
I didn't mean to sound like I necessarily believed that he was a saint, or even Orthodox, I just brought it up as an example to my question. 

Given the poor state of communications in that time, I doubt that many in England knew a whole lot about the events in Constantinople in 1054.  However, the Pope did support William the Conquer, who did reorganize the English Church strengthening the ties to Rome by replacing all the old English Bishops with men whose loyalty to Rome was unquestionable so there is kernel of truth to this story. King Herald's daughter Gytha fled to Kiev where she married Grand Prince Vladimir Monomakh, who, of course was Orthodox.
 
Fr. John W. Morris
This topic has come up before:
Like Scandinavia? England? I mention those because Scandinavians and Angles were both in Constantinople in the 11th century, even having Churches in New Rome, and no one seems to have questioned that they were under the jurisdiction of Old Rome, not New Rome.  Ethiopia, from Balsamon and Zonoras' viewpoint outside the established Church, was, and is, always under Alexandria, not Constantinople.
The Varangians of Byzantium By Benedict Benedikz, Sigfús Blöndal
http://books.google.com/books?id=vFRug14ui7gC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Varangian+Church+in+Constantinople&source=bl&ots=Wkqq67PUmm&sig=PB3rMuG6as1LFP2u-aj2lPy0e9g&hl=en&ei=kefVS6fWEYWoNs6DvdID&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=English%20Church%20in%20constantinople&f=false
An interesting article..... after the Great Schism 0f 1054 and the Continental Norman invasion of Britain a few years later in 1066, many of the Anglo-Saxon and Scottish nobility and military fled as refugees to Constantinople... the Patriarch accepted them as Orthodox and assigned a church for their use where they would have celebrated (probably?) the Sarum Rite.

English Refugees in the Byzantine Armed Forces:  The Varangian Guard and Anglo-Saxon Ethnic Consciousness

 By Nicholas C.J. Pappas


Sam Houston State University

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/pappas1.htm




Thank you for the link.  The question of how many went is one that is not easily answered.  However, it is certainly recorded that many of the Anglo-Saxons did not leave.  Indeed Edgar Atheling, whom many thought the rightful heir to King Edward as the last male of the line of Cerdic of Wessex, after becoming an adult in England and going on various ventures in such places as Sicily (Norman ventures), Scotland and Jerusalem died in England.  

I'm puzzled at the idea of the Scottish leaving since Scotland was at that time an independent country. Also as a side note Edgar's Sister married King Malcolm III and is now St. Margaret of Scotland. Her daughter Edith (aka Matilda) married Henry I of England.

/history geeking

Ebor

modified to correct a spelling error
LOL. You answered your own question: Margaret got the "St." part by vigorously making the last remnants of Celtic traditions conform to the program dictated by the Vatican, which included Angliczation (she introduced English at court; cf. Pope Adrian IV and his papal bull Lauddabiliter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudabiliter and the Irish crusade).  Btw, it is interesting how much the "Gregorian Reforms" were involved with institutionalizing Ultramontanism and the schism from Orthodoxy throughout the Patriarchate of the West.  The old St. Joseph Missal goes mentions her "services" to the church in this, without specifying against whom and what was done.

Quote
When his wife died around 1069, he [King Malcom III of Scotland] married Margaret, Edgar Atheling’s sister. Edgar would have become King of England if William the Conqueror from Normandy had not invaded the country. They had six sons, three of them (Edgar, Alexander and David) would be kings.

Margaret introduced English customs and language into the Scottish court and also church procedure but she never learnt Gaelic, which was the language spoken by many Scots at that time.

Her son, Kind David I built a small church inside Edinburgh Castle which was dedicated to her memory; the church is known as St. Margaret’s Chapel and it’s the oldest building in the castle.


In 1071 Malcolm was forced to sign the Treaty of Abernethy; and his son Duncan became a hostage in England. This happened as a result of the large number of English exiles who gathered in the court and also due to Malcolm’s raids into Northumbria and Cumbria.

Despite the worries of the English king, Malcolm made two more raids into England in 1079 and 1091 and once more he lost and had to submit to the English king.

After the English had driven out the Scots from their hold on Cumbria, Malcolm headed a final incursion in 1093. This led to his defeat and death at Alnwick. His son and heir Edward died in the same battle and Queen Margaret died in Edinburgh Castle four days later. She was later canonized for her patronage of the church.
http://www.scotlandinargentina.com.ar/bio-malcolm3ing.htm
The truth of the matter is until the collapse of the Roman Empire the Orthodox Church was entirely Roman.
Actually no. Armenia and Ethiopia were Orhtodox by anyone's definition at least until 451, but not part of the Empire. The Greek accounts of the conversion of Georgia state explicitely that Constantine stated a preference for the expansion of the Church rather than his empire.  Ireland and Scotland were never Roman, but they were once Orthodox. The English Church arose in post Roman Britain: refugees from the 1054 schism imposition by the Normans came to Constantinople, such that the Emperor had a recruiting office in London for the Varangian Guard.  The Empire of the West fell, but the Hispanic, Gallic, North African, etc. Churches remained Orthodox for some time.  And Norway and the rest of Scandinavian entered Orthodoxy, but was carried away by schism. And then there is the issue that with the rise of the Caliphate, three Patriarchs and often the archbishop of Cyprus found themselves outside the Empire.

But I agree: good order as the manifestation of the unity of the universal Orthodox Church is the issue.
Thank you
"As a pilot calls on winds and a storm-tossed mariner looks homeward, so the times call on you to win your way to God. As God's athlete, be sober; the stake is immortality and eternal life." - St. Ignatius, Epistle to Polycarp

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,460
  • Faith: Finnish Orthodox
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 02:48:49 AM »
http://oca.org/saints/lives/2013/05/09/101336-translation-of-the-relics-of-st-nicholas-the-wonderworker-from-m

Quote
The Russian Orthodox Church celebration of the memory of the Transfer of the Relics of St Nicholas from Myra in Lycia to Bari in Italy on May 9 was established soon after the year 1087
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Nephi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,829
  • A non-Chalcedonian in Chalcedonian clothing.
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 08:20:11 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.

I've never heard of any Orthodox venerating King Harold II, but I believe I've heard of WRO venerating his predecessor, Edward the Confessor who died in 1066. Either way, the1054 date is loose at best and pretty arbitrary.

Offline John of Patmos

  • Sinful Newbie
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 99
  • Saint Polycarp, my patron
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 09:08:22 PM »
I'm extremely interested...
Holy Father John Chrysostom, intercede for me!
That map ialmisry posted just makes me want to play Crusader Kings II.

Offline recent convert

  • Orthodox Chrisitan
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,245
  • St.David of Wales pray for us
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2013, 09:52:35 PM »
What about Ireland? I believe much of the rationale for the Norman invasion in the 1100s had religious implications & it was after all, a Norman who precipitated the great schism in 1054.
Antiochian OC NA

Beware the wrath of the guardians of "love."

Offline frjohnmorris

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,177
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2013, 10:18:34 PM »
Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
Yeah, that's nonsense.

Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.
I didn't mean to sound like I necessarily believed that he was a saint, or even Orthodox, I just brought it up as an example to my question. 

The Pope did support William the Conquer, who did replace all the old English Bishops with men whose loyalty to Rome was unquestionable so there is kernel of truth to this story. King Herald's daughter Gytha fled to Kiev where she married Grand Prince Vladimir Monomakh.

Fr. John W. Morris
Woe be unto me to dispute an actual historian such as yourself, but  -- and I know this is not your assertion -- is there reason to believe anyone in the Isles at that time considered themselves anything other than Catholic, albeit low-papalists?

You must remember that the papacy took centuries to assume its present form. It is true that one can find statements by Popes making claims to great authority and universal jurisdiction since ancient times. However, that does not mean that the rest of the Western Church recognized those claims. In fact the historical evidence is that the rest of the Church did not recognize the papal claims. 
Certainly in 1066 the Popes did not have the ability to exercise the power that they have today. Therefore, it is not historically correct to argue modern Roman Catholic views of the papacy were widely held in the West, except in the writings of a Pope like Boniface VII. Even as late as the century before the Reformation, there was a very strong movement that almost succeeded to establish the principle that the Pope is subject to the authority of an Ecumenical Council. Even later King Louis XIV of France d. 1715 and Emperor Josef II d. 1790 of the Holy Roman Empire challenged the authority of the Popes over the Church in France and Austria. The papacy as we know it today is the result of the 1st Vatican Council in 1870. Therefore, it would be incorrect to assume that the Catholics in Ireland or most of the rest of Europe had a modern concept of papal authority in 1066.

Fr. John W. Morris
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 10:39:01 PM by frjohnmorris »

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,980
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2013, 11:57:14 PM »
What about Ireland? I believe much of the rationale for the Norman invasion in the 1100s had religious implications & it was after all, a Norman who precipitated the great schism in 1054.

The Irish Church was not separated from Rome in the way Canterbury was in the mid 11th century. There were closer ties. But, yes, Norman English made a kind of crusade to conquer Ireland, blessed by the only English pope, conveniently. The only real religious substance to it was getting rid of Irish independence, political and ecclesiastical.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαύμα!
  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,839
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2013, 02:05:43 AM »
I seem to remember reading somewhere about monastic communities in Italy that rejected the authority of the Pope and may have reached out to the Patriarch of Constantinople before being eventually stamped out, but I could be wrong.
How has Antonis not become an Old Calendarist yet?
I thought he had, a few posts ago.

"I hate the poor." --Mor Ephrem

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,980
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2013, 01:32:28 PM »
I seem to remember reading somewhere about monastic communities in Italy that rejected the authority of the Pope and may have reached out to the Patriarch of Constantinople before being eventually stamped out, but I could be wrong.

There were Greek communities in southern Italy until the Normans ousted the Greek clergy and replaced them with Latin clergy.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline KostaC

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 295
  • Ὁ Τελευταῖος Ἔπαρχος τῶν Πραιτωρίων της Αφρικής
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Thessaloniki
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2013, 12:45:24 AM »
I seem to remember reading somewhere about monastic communities in Italy that rejected the authority of the Pope and may have reached out to the Patriarch of Constantinople before being eventually stamped out, but I could be wrong.

There were Greek communities in southern Italy until the Normans ousted the Greek clergy and replaced them with Latin clergy.

I was just reading this yesterday!

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Amalfion%20Oct%202002.pdf

There was also Baarlam of Seminara, who was born Orthodox in southern Italy and only became Catholic because he was a bit of a spoilsport who didn't like that Hesychasm won out over his idea of quasi-Aristotelianism and logic being the penultimate part of faith.

Did I get that right? Is that what the other half of the Hesychasm believed? I might have gotten a few details wrong with my quick explanation.
«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34

"Bendito seja o que vem em nome do Senhor, o Senhor é Deus e se manifestou a nós."

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,732
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 10:39:54 PM »
Scotland and England have been quoted on this thread, but I'd suggest two other lands where Orthodoxy may have remained longer than in most of the West:
  • Ireland: I've seen late Irish Orthodoxy being spoken of in Orthodox circles. According to Fr. Andrew Phillips, the Filioque clause only got to Ireland by the late XII century. According to Wikipedia, despite the richness of Irish christianity, that gave so many saints to the Church, it was called a "barbarous nation" and evangelised by the English in the same era, which indicates to me they weren't as submissive to the Papacy.
  • Sardinia: I never read anyone mention late Sardinian Orthodoxy, but maybe it deserves some study. Until the early IX century, Sardinia was part of the Byzantine Empire, but then they gradually lost ties until provinces became self-ruled, and their church, autocephalous. After the Great Schism, Western monks started to enter Sardinia (I wonder if they still worshipped in the Byzantine rite until then), but its autocephaly was only abolished in 1092, and the large, distant and peculiarly-cultured island was placed under the Bishop of Pisa, which only then became an Archbishop. This seems to me like a deliberate move to make Sardinian Christianity much more like Italian Christianity, otherwise it'd be much more logical that it had its own primate directly subject to the Pope, as other large islands.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 10:41:22 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,732
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2018, 10:48:50 PM »
P.S.: Wikipedia claims the Sardinian Church "worshipped in the Eastern Rite" and that "Basilian monks" operated in the island, but gives no sources. Italian Wikipedia is even more specific saying cenobitic monasticism was widespread in Sardinia. It also gives this list of Byzantine churches still standing in the island. It seems pretty clear to me that, even though the island is West from Italy and South from France, they were not only Orthodox, but Eastern Orthodox.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline mcarmichael

  • Mike
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,745
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Mike
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2018, 11:37:11 PM »
P.S.: Wikipedia claims the Sardinian Church "worshipped in the Eastern Rite" and that "Basilian monks" operated in the island, but gives no sources. Italian Wikipedia is even more specific saying cenobitic monasticism was widespread in Sardinia. It also gives this list of Byzantine churches still standing in the island. It seems pretty clear to me that, even though the island is West from Italy and South from France, they were not only Orthodox, but Eastern Orthodox.
As if Scotland, Ireland, and England weren't enough already! Glory be to God!
"A fool's work wearies him." - King Solomon
"If God if for us, who can be against us?" - St. Paul the Apostle
"Just hang on!" - Luke Skywalker

"A mind is a terrible thing to waste." - The NAANCP

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 878
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Metropolis of Denver
Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2018, 02:36:23 AM »
    • Sardinia: I never read anyone mention late Sardinian Orthodoxy, but maybe it deserves some study. Until the early IX century, Sardinia was part of the Byzantine Empire, but then they gradually lost ties until provinces became self-ruled, and their church, autocephalous. After the Great Schism, Western monks started to enter Sardinia (I wonder if they still worshipped in the Byzantine rite until then), but its autocephaly was only abolished in 1092, and the large, distant and peculiarly-cultured island was placed under the Bishop of Pisa, which only then became an Archbishop. This seems to me like a deliberate move to make Sardinian Christianity much more like Italian Christianity, otherwise it'd be much more logical that it had its own primate directly subject to the Pope, as other large islands.
    I wonder if the church that St. Francis chanced on, the Porciuncula, with its Byzantine crucifix, though in Perugia, had been destroyed or abandoned because it was Byzantine.  That'd give the message that he heard there, to rebuild the church, a quite different meaning from what he thought and what it turned out to be.[/list]
    « Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 02:37:48 AM by Sharbel »
    Sanctus Deus
    ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
    Άγιος ο Θεός

    Online augustin717

    • Taxiarches
    • **********
    • Posts: 6,600
    • Faith: Higher Criticism
    • Jurisdiction: Dutch
    Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
    « Reply #25 on: January 17, 2018, 03:34:48 AM »
      • Sardinia: I never read anyone mention late Sardinian Orthodoxy, but maybe it deserves some study. Until the early IX century, Sardinia was part of the Byzantine Empire, but then they gradually lost ties until provinces became self-ruled, and their church, autocephalous. After the Great Schism, Western monks started to enter Sardinia (I wonder if they still worshipped in the Byzantine rite until then), but its autocephaly was only abolished in 1092, and the large, distant and peculiarly-cultured island was placed under the Bishop of Pisa, which only then became an Archbishop. This seems to me like a deliberate move to make Sardinian Christianity much more like Italian Christianity, otherwise it'd be much more logical that it had its own primate directly subject to the Pope, as other large islands.
      you must have not seen Italy a lot. It preserved more  early Byzantine churches than any other country. Plus forxearly church architecture in the peninsula ' Byzantine ' is quite redundant .
      [/list]
      I wonder if the church that St. Francis chanced on, the Porciuncula, with its Byzantine crucifix, though in Perugia, had been destroyed or abandoned because it was Byzantine.  That'd give the message that he heard there, to rebuild the church, a quite different meaning from what he thought and what it turned out to be.[/list]
      "I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

      Offline mcarmichael

      • Mike
      • OC.net guru
      • *******
      • Posts: 1,745
      • Faith: Christian
      • Jurisdiction: Mike
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #26 on: January 17, 2018, 03:42:28 AM »
      Great schism you say. What is schism?
      « Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 03:49:52 AM by mcarmichael »
      "A fool's work wearies him." - King Solomon
      "If God if for us, who can be against us?" - St. Paul the Apostle
      "Just hang on!" - Luke Skywalker

      "A mind is a terrible thing to waste." - The NAANCP

      Offline Apostolos

      • Protopentekaidekarchos
      • High Elder
      • ******
      • Posts: 752
      • Faith: Orthodox Christian
      • Jurisdiction: Church of Greece
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #27 on: January 17, 2018, 07:28:24 AM »
      ...
      Like Scandinavia? England? I mention those because Scandinavians and Angles were both in Constantinople in the 11th century, even having Churches in New Rome, and no one seems to have questioned that they were under the jurisdiction of Old Rome, not New Rome.  Ethiopia, from Balsamon and Zonoras' viewpoint outside the established Church, was, and is, always under Alexandria, not Constantinople.
      The Varangians of Byzantium By Benedict Benedikz, Sigfús Blöndal
      http://books.google.com/books?id=vFRug14ui7gC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Varangian+Church+in+Constantinople&source=bl&ots=Wkqq67PUmm&sig=PB3rMuG6as1LFP2u-aj2lPy0e9g&hl=en&ei=kefVS6fWEYWoNs6DvdID&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=English%20Church%20in%20constantinople&f=false
      [/quote]
      An interesting article..... after the Great Schism 0f 1054 and the Continental Norman invasion of Britain a few years later in 1066, many of the Anglo-Saxon and Scottish nobility and military fled as refugees to Constantinople... the Patriarch accepted them as Orthodox and assigned a church for their use where they would have celebrated (probably?) the Sarum Rite.

      English Refugees in the Byzantine Armed Forces:  The Varangian Guard and Anglo-Saxon Ethnic Consciousness

       By Nicholas C.J. Pappas


      Sam Houston State University

      http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/pappas1.htm




      Thank you for the link.  The question of how many went is one that is not easily answered.  However, it is certainly recorded that many of the Anglo-Saxons did not leave.  Indeed Edgar Atheling, whom many thought the rightful heir to King Edward as the last male of the line of Cerdic of Wessex, after becoming an adult in England and going on various ventures in such places as Sicily (Norman ventures), Scotland and Jerusalem died in England. 

      I'm puzzled at the idea of the Scottish leaving since Scotland was at that time an independent country. Also as a side note Edgar's Sister married King Malcolm III and is now St. Margaret of Scotland. Her daughter Edith (aka Matilda) married Henry I of England.

      /history geeking

      Ebor

      modified to correct a spelling error
      LOL. You answered your own question: Margaret got the "St." part by vigorously making the last remnants of Celtic traditions conform to the program dictated by the Vatican, which included Angliczation (she introduced English at court; cf. Pope Adrian IV and his papal bull Lauddabiliter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudabiliter and the Irish crusade).  Btw, it is interesting how much the "Gregorian Reforms" were involved with institutionalizing Ultramontanism and the schism from Orthodoxy throughout the Patriarchate of the West.  The old St. Joseph Missal goes mentions her "services" to the church in this, without specifying against whom and what was done.

      Quote
      When his wife died around 1069, he [King Malcom III of Scotland] married Margaret, Edgar Atheling’s sister. Edgar would have become King of England if William the Conqueror from Normandy had not invaded the country. They had six sons, three of them (Edgar, Alexander and David) would be kings.

      Margaret introduced English customs and language into the Scottish court and also church procedure but she never learnt Gaelic, which was the language spoken by many Scots at that time.

      Her son, Kind David I built a small church inside Edinburgh Castle which was dedicated to her memory; the church is known as St. Margaret’s Chapel and it’s the oldest building in the castle.


      In 1071 Malcolm was forced to sign the Treaty of Abernethy; and his son Duncan became a hostage in England. This happened as a result of the large number of English exiles who gathered in the court and also due to Malcolm’s raids into Northumbria and Cumbria.

      Despite the worries of the English king, Malcolm made two more raids into England in 1079 and 1091 and once more he lost and had to submit to the English king.

      After the English had driven out the Scots from their hold on Cumbria, Malcolm headed a final incursion in 1093. This led to his defeat and death at Alnwick. His son and heir Edward died in the same battle and Queen Margaret died in Edinburgh Castle four days later. She was later canonized for her patronage of the church.
      http://www.scotlandinargentina.com.ar/bio-malcolm3ing.htm
      The truth of the matter is until the collapse of the Roman Empire the Orthodox Church was entirely Roman.
      Actually no. Armenia and Ethiopia were Orhtodox by anyone's definition at least until 451, but not part of the Empire. The Greek accounts of the conversion of Georgia state explicitely that Constantine stated a preference for the expansion of the Church rather than his empire.  Ireland and Scotland were never Roman, but they were once Orthodox. The English Church arose in post Roman Britain: refugees from the 1054 schism imposition by the Normans came to Constantinople, such that the Emperor had a recruiting office in London for the Varangian Guard.  The Empire of the West fell, but the Hispanic, Gallic, North African, etc. Churches remained Orthodox for some time.  And Norway and the rest of Scandinavian entered Orthodoxy, but was carried away by schism. And then there is the issue that with the rise of the Caliphate, three Patriarchs and often the archbishop of Cyprus found themselves outside the Empire.

      But I agree: good order as the manifestation of the unity of the universal Orthodox Church is the issue.
      The Anglo-Saxons in the Varangian Guard were the Ἰγγλινοβάραγγοι (Inglinovárangoi, Anglo-Varangians), served & fought under the flammullum of st. George:
      Ἦχος Βαρύς

      Ὁπλιτικῆς φάλαγγος οἰκεῖον μέλος
      ὁ τοῦ βάρους σὺ κλῆσιν εἰληφῶς φέρεις.
      Ἧχον τὸν ἁπλοῦν τὸν βάρους ἐπώνυμον
      ὁ τοὺς λογισμοὺς ἐν βοαῖς μισῶν φιλεῖ.
      Ἀνδρῶν δὲ ἄσμα δευτερότριτε βρέμεις.
      Ὧν ποικίλος δὲ τοὺς ἁπλούς ἔχεις φίλους.

      Offline Saxon

      • Member
      • ***
      • Posts: 149
      • Faith: Orthodox
      • Jurisdiction: ROCOR
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #28 on: January 17, 2018, 02:56:36 PM »
      Is this around the time that St. George supplanted St. Edmund the Martyr as England's patron saint?

      Offline Apostolos

      • Protopentekaidekarchos
      • High Elder
      • ******
      • Posts: 752
      • Faith: Orthodox Christian
      • Jurisdiction: Church of Greece
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #29 on: January 17, 2018, 05:14:13 PM »
      Is this around the time that St. George supplanted St. Edmund the Martyr as England's patron saint?
      Did it happen in 1081?
      That's when the flammullum was introduced to the Anglo-Varangians (it was previously the banner carried by the Hikanatoi but the unit was disbanded in 1080-1081).
      Ἦχος Βαρύς

      Ὁπλιτικῆς φάλαγγος οἰκεῖον μέλος
      ὁ τοῦ βάρους σὺ κλῆσιν εἰληφῶς φέρεις.
      Ἧχον τὸν ἁπλοῦν τὸν βάρους ἐπώνυμον
      ὁ τοὺς λογισμοὺς ἐν βοαῖς μισῶν φιλεῖ.
      Ἀνδρῶν δὲ ἄσμα δευτερότριτε βρέμεις.
      Ὧν ποικίλος δὲ τοὺς ἁπλούς ἔχεις φίλους.

      Offline Agabus

      • The user formerly known as Agabus.
      • Section Moderator
      • Protokentarchos
      • *****
      • Posts: 4,898
      • Faith: without works is dead.
      • Jurisdiction: Dark Night of the Soul.
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #30 on: January 18, 2018, 12:25:22 PM »
      Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
      Yeah, that's nonsense.

      Just to clarify this old comment:

      I'm on board with the idea that the papal machine of the time backed the Normans in part to get the English to submit to general Vatican hegemony. I'm much less inclined to believe that the people of the English Isles were self-consciously Orthodox and resisting such demands because of similar ideological commitments as the Easterns.
      Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

      THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

      All hail and agree with AGABUS! the God of this website.

      Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

      Online Volnutt

      • Dull Sublunary Lover
      • Toumarches
      • ************
      • Posts: 11,244
      • Faith: Evangelical by default
      • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #31 on: January 18, 2018, 12:39:24 PM »
      Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
      Yeah, that's nonsense.

      Just to clarify this old comment:

      I'm on board with the idea that the papal machine of the time backed the Normans in part to get the English to submit to general Vatican hegemony. I'm much less inclined to believe that the people of the English Isles were self-consciously Orthodox and resisting such demands because of similar ideological commitments as the Easterns.

      Heck, how many of the Easterns were even self-consciously Orthodox at this point in history?
      It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

      Quote
      The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
      Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

      Offline Iconodule

      • Toumarches
      • ************
      • Posts: 14,130
      • Faith: Orthodox Christian
      • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #32 on: January 18, 2018, 12:56:04 PM »
      Right, the English and Irish churches were basically loyal to Rome. We can say they were orthodox because they had the same basic faith as us and were in communion with the orthodox East, and they might have had some disagreements with the Pope on political and disciplinary matters, but as for hot button (for us) issues like filioque and Papal primacy, from what I've seen, they were pretty much on the same page and had been for a while. This is why dating the schism at 1054 is so unhelpful and misleading.  The issues that led to that breach had been in place a long time, even with undisputed saints, so it's crazy to act like two bishops excommunicating each other in 1054 shuts everything off like a light switch, or that everything was a-ok before then. If a 10th century Latin could be a saint, there's no good reason a 12th century Latin couldn't either.
      Quote
      Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!
      - Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness

      If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

      Offline RaphaCam

      • Taxiarches
      • **********
      • Posts: 5,732
      • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
        • Em Espírito e em Verdade
      • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
      • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #33 on: January 18, 2018, 09:09:08 PM »
      It seems the Irish did not use the Filioque and I'm not sure they were that loyal to the Pope. I'd guess Sardinia didn't even care about the Pope, not unlike pre-Crusades Maronites.
      « Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:09:55 PM by RaphaCam »
      "May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

      Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

      Offline Alpha60

      • Pray without ceasing!
      • OC.net guru
      • *******
      • Posts: 1,742
      • Faith: Christian
      • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #34 on: January 20, 2018, 08:45:05 AM »
      Is there any historical information which would indicate this? I've read that the Norman invasion of England in 1066 was partly motivated by King Harold II not complying with Papal supremacy and that some Orthodox regard him as a Saint and possible martyr.
      Yeah, that's nonsense.

      Think you should read a little of the history of the protagonists and you will quickly realise that King Harold may have been many things, but an unlikely saint.
      I didn't mean to sound like I necessarily believed that he was a saint, or even Orthodox, I just brought it up as an example to my question. 

      The Pope did support William the Conquer, who did replace all the old English Bishops with men whose loyalty to Rome was unquestionable so there is kernel of truth to this story. King Herald's daughter Gytha fled to Kiev where she married Grand Prince Vladimir Monomakh.

      Fr. John W. Morris
      Woe be unto me to dispute an actual historian such as yourself, but  -- and I know this is not your assertion -- is there reason to believe anyone in the Isles at that time considered themselves anything other than Catholic, albeit low-papalists?

      No, but there is strong evidence of Eastern, perhaps, Coptic, influence on Celtic monasticism.

      Fr. John W. Morris

      The evidence is specifically Coptic, rather than Byzantine, however, these Coptic-founded monasteries in due course adopted the Western model of St. Benedict and indeed, originated the Rule of St. Columba, which is stricter than the Benedictine rule, and I think stricter than Coptic monasticism as well. 

      One obvious point should also be made, and that is that the Coptic hermits who settled in Brittania and Hibernia were monastic, celibate, and did not reproduce; its impossible to say whether or not they brought with them any kind of retinue of laity, but it seems safe to say that these Copts merely founded the institution which their Celtic disciples took over, and the evidence points to Celtic Christianity being, liturgically and otherwise, broadly in accord with Roman praxis.  For example, the celebrated Stowe Missal is basically a variation on the Roman mass.

      We should also consider that during this era, the Roman Church was Orthodox (except as far as the Oriental churches were concerned); St. Gregory the Great is a major EO saint, and for many centuries the Roman church was regarded as extremely conservative and a bastion of piety.  It was only after Charlemagne and the subsequent Filioque Controversy that EO-RC relations became strained.
      "It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

      - The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

      This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

      Offline Alpha60

      • Pray without ceasing!
      • OC.net guru
      • *******
      • Posts: 1,742
      • Faith: Christian
      • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #35 on: January 20, 2018, 08:52:09 AM »
      Now, in answer to the OP, I am going to propose a radical answer: the Roman church did not instantly degenerate as a result of the schism, but had been leaning the wrong way for a while, but the process by which heterodoxideas permeated the Roman church was not completed or perfected in 1054; the entire complex of questionable practices took several centuries to set in.  I would further argue that the greatest heterodoxies in the Roman church are of relatively recent origin, for example, the Novus Ordo Missae.

      My private theologoumemnon is that there are functionally orthodox bishops within the RCC, and there are others who would be effectively Orthodox were it not for their insistence on Papal supremacy or an ecclesiological model in which orthodoxy is derived from communion with the Roman pontiff. 

      We also have the case of groups like the Czech Utraquists and the early Hussites, whose main bone of comtention was the Latinization of the Czech church which led to the end of vernacular or semi vernacular liturgy and communion in both kinds, which the Czechs had previously enjoyed under Orthodoxy.
      « Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 08:52:20 AM by Alpha60 »
      "It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

      - The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

      This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

      Offline WPM

      • Protokentarchos
      • *********
      • Posts: 4,655
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #36 on: January 20, 2018, 09:50:25 AM »
      Maybe Orthodox Church consisted of separate parts of a whole catholic faith.
      Learn meditation.

      Offline Mercurius1

      • Jr. Member
      • **
      • Posts: 48
      • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
      • Jurisdiction: Antioch
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #37 on: January 22, 2018, 12:55:23 PM »
      My family is Sicilian and from what I have read there was an Orthodox presence up until the 18th century or so. A lot of the architecture is also in the Byzantine style. I would imagine that only certain places in the West had this, mainly Sicily and Southern Italy (Calabria) and maybe some other areas

      Offline LivenotoneviL

      • A Hopeful Sinner
      • OC.net guru
      • *******
      • Posts: 1,107
      • Saint Patrick, Pray For Us!
      • Faith: Outside the Church
      • Jurisdiction: None
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #38 on: January 22, 2018, 04:31:14 PM »
      Now, in answer to the OP, I am going to propose a radical answer: the Roman church did not instantly degenerate as a result of the schism, but had been leaning the wrong way for a while, but the process by which heterodoxideas permeated the Roman church was not completed or perfected in 1054; the entire complex of questionable practices took several centuries to set in.  I would further argue that the greatest heterodoxies in the Roman church are of relatively recent origin, for example, the Novus Ordo Missae.

      My private theologoumemnon is that there are functionally orthodox bishops within the RCC, and there are others who would be effectively Orthodox were it not for their insistence on Papal supremacy or an ecclesiological model in which orthodoxy is derived from communion with the Roman pontiff. 

      We also have the case of groups like the Czech Utraquists and the early Hussites, whose main bone of comtention was the Latinization of the Czech church which led to the end of vernacular or semi vernacular liturgy and communion in both kinds, which the Czechs had previously enjoyed under Orthodoxy.

      +1
      "I arise today
      Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity,
      Through belief in the Threeness,
      Through confession of the Oneness
      of the Creator of creation."

      May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

      Offline RaphaCam

      • Taxiarches
      • **********
      • Posts: 5,732
      • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
        • Em Espírito e em Verdade
      • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
      • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #39 on: January 22, 2018, 04:38:38 PM »
      My family is Sicilian and from what I have read there was an Orthodox presence up until the 18th century or so. A lot of the architecture is also in the Byzantine style. I would imagine that only certain places in the West had this, mainly Sicily and Southern Italy (Calabria) and maybe some other areas
      I thought Sicilian and Calabrian Greeks had been converted to Roman Catholicism (at least formally) before that, but I can't find anything about it, can you send me what you've read? I'm curious.
      "May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

      Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

      Offline Mercurius1

      • Jr. Member
      • **
      • Posts: 48
      • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
      • Jurisdiction: Antioch
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #40 on: January 22, 2018, 05:49:46 PM »
      My family is Sicilian and from what I have read there was an Orthodox presence up until the 18th century or so. A lot of the architecture is also in the Byzantine style. I would imagine that only certain places in the West had this, mainly Sicily and Southern Italy (Calabria) and maybe some other areas
      I thought Sicilian and Calabrian Greeks had been converted to Roman Catholicism (at least formally) before that, but I can't find anything about it, can you send me what you've read? I'm curious.


      Yea I'll see if I can find it. I think it was on the Reddit Orthodox page a while back so I might have to do some digging. But I remember reading there were still some holdouts of Orthodoxy in those places before they either died out, emigrated or offically became RCC

      Offline recent convert

      • Orthodox Chrisitan
      • Archon
      • ********
      • Posts: 2,245
      • St.David of Wales pray for us
      • Faith: Orthodox Christian
      • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
      Re: Did Orthodoxy remain existant at all in the West Post-Great Schism?
      « Reply #41 on: January 22, 2018, 09:45:45 PM »
      I think a big problem in the West was falsified documents with incorrect theology. Documents like the pseudo Athanasian creed and the Donation of Constantine come to mind. Latin theologians usually and innocently cited these as evidence for things like the filioque etc.
      « Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 09:46:39 PM by recent convert »
      Antiochian OC NA

      Beware the wrath of the guardians of "love."