Author Topic: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?  (Read 4769 times)

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Offline Salpy

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2013, 10:57:45 PM »
Since you admit it's illogical, how do you know it's true and that you're not committing blasphemy?


Do not Muslims believe in the virgin birth?

Yes, but a miracle is different than God dying.

God taking on flesh, and in that flesh dying for His creation, is a miracle.  :)

Why would He do it?

Out of love.   :)

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2013, 11:04:20 PM »
First OP has to determine if all people are shameful of their deaths, and also determine if there is a just cause of death.

Of course God also knew he'd rise again.   This was an example to Christians, and a promise for eternal life.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2013, 03:42:53 AM »
Now that we're in the proper forum to discuss this:

Since you admit it's illogical, how do you know it's true and that you're not committing blasphemy?


Do not Muslims believe in the virgin birth?

Yes, but a miracle is different than God dying.

God taking on flesh, and in that flesh dying for His creation, is a miracle.  :)

Why would He do it?

Out of love.   :)

+1

There's a sense of different understanding of the divine nature between Islam and Christianity.  For Islam, the divine nature is transcendent.  It's impossible for God to "dwell in" us, let alone the world.  He's simply everywhere, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc.  Christians don't deny that, but they also believe God is "imminent" as well.  It's a divine paradox.  When one understands this paradox of divinity, one also understand the paradox of the Incarnation.

God doesn't die from His own eternal nature.  That is why He took the form of a man, a body that is His very own that is capable of death.  The paradox is this:  He died so that we may live.  His death became for us a blessing, that we may "die like God" and "rise up with Him" in the last days.  God becomes man so that men might be united to God, and not just merely becoming flesh, but became every part of man's existence and experience, including growth, hunger, suffering, death, and resurrection.  He unites us to Him not just in an instant manner, but from conception to adulthood, in mortem and in resurrection.  It's the complete experience, and we live as experiencing His life, His Godly life, no longer our personal lives independent from God.  This unity of our human lives with the "human life of God" is this paradox that we strongly hold on to and confess.  The unity is the source of the forgiveness of our sins, and the assurance of our eternal life.

And all of this because God loves us, and love is perfect, He not only wanted to dwell in us, He not only wanted to become fully man like us, He not only experienced everything we do like us, He not only died like us, but He chose a death so vile, so cursed, that the paradox goes even deeper, showing in love to us that He took the worst that we may be our best.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 03:46:27 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2013, 08:57:22 AM »
Since you admit it's illogical, how do you know it's true and that you're not committing blasphemy?


Do not Muslims believe in the virgin birth?

Yes, but a miracle is different than God dying.

You are being evasive.

You previously claimed that illogical things may not be true and may even be blasphemous.

The virgin birth, which is endorsed by Islam, also sounds illogical and unnatural to many non-Christians and non-Muslims. When you are reminded of this, you come up with new rules to save faces.

In Christian theology the virgin birth/incarnation is the primary miracle that gave Yeshua a true human body and led Him to the Cross.

I still wonder why there is no reference in the Qur'an to the Christian doctrine of God's crucifixion and death in flesh.

It is likely that Muhammad could never be acquainted with the Christian theology concerning Jesus’ passion or with the significance of the cross for the basic Christian doctrine of salvation. The fact that the Qur’an lacks a reference to the Christian veneration of the cross as well as a critique of the Christian faith in a crucified Messiah supports the allegation that Muhammad or his scribes knew almost nothing about the way Christians viewed Jesus’ crucifixion. http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/gnostic_islamic_crucifixion.html
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 09:00:16 AM by Theophilos78 »
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Offline Luke

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2013, 10:50:35 AM »
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. -- John 3:16 King James Version
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 10:50:51 AM by Gamliel »

Offline IoanC

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Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2013, 11:38:52 AM »
I don't believe He even thought about allowing Himself to be killed. He simply felt it was His mission to save us because of His great love.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 11:39:05 AM by IoanC »

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2013, 11:53:25 AM »
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. -- John 3:16 King James Version

A Muslim wouldn't care about this verse, if they hold to their beliefs.
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2013, 12:18:50 PM »
I don't believe He even thought about allowing Himself to be killed. He simply felt it was His mission to save us because of His great love.

Or, better yet, He even hoped for the opportunity to allow Himself to be killed because He knew that His loving sacrifice was the only thing that could save us.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2013, 12:30:56 PM »
Why would the Creator of Heavens and Earth let Himself getting killed by His creation?
I think your real question is how is it possible that the Creator became His creation.
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Offline Math lover

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2013, 01:22:53 PM »
Since you admit it's illogical, how do you know it's true and that you're not committing blasphemy?


Do not Muslims believe in the virgin birth?

Yes, but a miracle is different than God dying.

You are being evasive.

You previously claimed that illogical things may not be true and may even be blasphemous.

The virgin birth, which is endorsed by Islam, also sounds illogical and unnatural to many non-Christians and non-Muslims. When you are reminded of this, you come up with new rules to save faces.

In Christian theology the virgin birth/incarnation is the primary miracle that gave Yeshua a true human body and led Him to the Cross.

I still wonder why there is no reference in the Qur'an to the Christian doctrine of God's crucifixion and death in flesh.

It is likely that Muhammad could never be acquainted with the Christian theology concerning Jesus’ passion or with the significance of the cross for the basic Christian doctrine of salvation. The fact that the Qur’an lacks a reference to the Christian veneration of the cross as well as a critique of the Christian faith in a crucified Messiah supports the allegation that Muhammad or his scribes knew almost nothing about the way Christians viewed Jesus’ crucifixion. http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/gnostic_islamic_crucifixion.html

Except that Christianity is based on something that makes no sense as this, and saying God became a man sounds like lowering Him...
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 01:23:57 PM by Math lover »

Offline Math lover

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Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2013, 01:24:24 PM »
Why would the Creator of Heavens and Earth let Himself getting killed by His creation?
I think your real question is how is it possible that the Creator became His creation.

That too.

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2013, 01:44:23 PM »
Why would the Creator of Heavens and Earth let Himself getting killed by His creation?
I think your real question is how is it possible that the Creator became His creation.

The Creator is His Creation. Wait... ah, the whole trinity thing is so confusing.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2013, 03:18:19 PM »

Except that Christianity is based on something that makes no sense as this,

This answer once more fails to address my points. Making sense according to whom? A Jew would easily say that the Islamic doctrine concerning Miryam's miraculous conception makes no sense.  ::)

and saying God became a man sounds like lowering Him...

This reminded me of pagan Meccans, who refused to believe that Muhammad was a messenger because he was a mere mortal rather than an angel. Those Meccans thought that Allah would not lower himself by sending them mortals as messengers. Yet what did the author of the Qur'an say in response to them?

And naught prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them, but that they said, 'Has God sent forth a mortal as Messenger?' Say: 'Had there been in the earth angels walking. at peace, We would have sent down upon them out of heaven an angel as Messenger.' (Surah 17:94-95)

Had we appointed him (Our messenger) an angel, We assuredly had made him (as) a man (that he might speak to men); and (thus) obscured for them (the truth) they (now) obscure. (Surah 6:9)

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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2013, 03:20:59 PM »
God became a man sounds like lowering Him...

Since Jesus was fully man and fully God, (not half and half, not a transformation from God to man) is it really lowering Him?

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2013, 08:29:33 PM »
Except that Christianity is based on something that makes no sense as this, and saying God became a man sounds like lowering Him...

Are you saying that God is unable to become man if He wanted to?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline IoanC

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Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2013, 04:40:51 AM »
God became man, but He did not become a man. He is God-man or Theanthropos. Man is pure anthropos. That being said it is not at all an act of "lowering" Himself by taking on human nature. He does not view it as such because man is not low, but is a god himself. If anything man is a heavy power/god that can glorify God and show His real value.

Offline Math lover

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2013, 12:05:13 PM »
Except that Christianity is based on something that makes no sense as this, and saying God became a man sounds like lowering Him...

Are you saying that God is unable to become man if He wanted to?

Men are limited, God becoming a man will limit Him.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2013, 12:09:40 PM »
Except that Christianity is based on something that makes no sense as this, and saying God became a man sounds like lowering Him...

Are you saying that God is unable to become man if He wanted to?

Men are limited, God becoming a man will limit Him.
but then if God is unable to become man, you are in essence limiting God.  We Christians believe God is more unfathomable than mere infinity or omnipresence. He can also be fully present IN people too.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Math lover

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2013, 12:13:26 PM »
Except that Christianity is based on something that makes no sense as this, and saying God became a man sounds like lowering Him...

Are you saying that God is unable to become man if He wanted to?

Men are limited, God becoming a man will limit Him.
but then if God is unable to become man, you are in essence limiting God.  We Christians believe God is more unfathomable than mere infinity or omnipresence. He can also be fully present IN people too.

Can God be limited and unlimited at the same time?
God doesn't do the logically impossible, you won't see God creating a square circle.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 12:19:10 PM by Math lover »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2013, 12:26:28 PM »
Can God be limited and unlimited at the same time?

I don't see why not, since the categories of "limited" and "unlimited" are both relative to what man can do or what man thinks is possible and impossible according to his own logic. Considering God only within this scheme is at odds with God's own words in Isaiah 55:8-9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."

And that's not even from the New Testament.

Quote
God doesn't do the logically impossible, you want see God creating a square circle.

No, you don't do the logically impossible, because its your logic that's telling you what is logically impossible in the first place. Stop conflating your own limited and corrupted reasoning with God.

In Christianity, we can and do sometimes speak of certain things about God that are somewhat analogous to God's attributes or qualities as you guys do in Islam, so it's not like it's completely outside of our tradition to say "God doesn't do X". The important difference, however, is that when we do so it is because we are in intimate communion with God Himself -- He is our Father, the Father of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, so we can and do take the instructions from Christ's own mouth, for instance, as instructing us in exactly what God is like and what He wants and what He wills to do and all that other stuff. In Christ, we see the Father as He willed to be seen. Islam has nothing of that, so you worship disembodied attributes and abstraction, and condemn us for not being "logical" enough to renounce the direct experience of and communion with God by giving up Christianity and joining you in darkness and presupposition based on the supposed revelation of the living and eternal Word as deaf and dumb text. No thank you.

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2013, 12:34:06 PM »
God doesn't do the logically impossible, you won't see God creating a square circle.

This shape example reminds me of Descartes' example of a triangle with 3 sides to explain that God's definition cannot be anything other than what it is (otherwise God would not be God), just like a triangle with more or less than 3 sides would not be a triangle, because it's impossible to conceive of a triangle with less or more than 3 sides, just how it's impossible to conceive logically of a God that isn't perfect in all things, including existence.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2013, 12:35:35 PM »
Except that Christianity is based on something that makes no sense as this, and saying God became a man sounds like lowering Him...

Are you saying that God is unable to become man if He wanted to?

Men are limited, God becoming a man will limit Him.
but then if God is unable to become man, you are in essence limiting God.  We Christians believe God is more unfathomable than mere infinity or omnipresence. He can also be fully present IN people too.

Can God be limited and unlimited at the same time?
God doesn't do the logically impossible, you won't see God creating a square circle.
Doing the logically impossible is one of the defining characteristics of God.

By believing this, you are simply acknowledging there is NO WAY God could communicate with any of His creation. That's a disaster!  That's like saying God is too infinite to even create the world.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 12:36:27 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Math lover

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2013, 12:41:59 PM »
Can God be limited and unlimited at the same time?

I don't see why not, since the categories of "limited" and "unlimited" are both relative to what man can do or what man thinks is possible and impossible according to his own logic. Considering God only within this scheme is at odds with God's own words in Isaiah 55:8-9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."

And that's not even from the New Testament.

Quote
God doesn't do the logically impossible, you want see God creating a square circle.

No, you don't do the logically impossible, because its your logic that's telling you what is logically impossible in the first place. Stop conflating your own limited and corrupted reasoning with God.

In Christianity, we can and do sometimes speak of certain things about God that are somewhat analogous to God's attributes or qualities as you guys do in Islam, so it's not like it's completely outside of our tradition to say "God doesn't do X". The important difference, however, is that when we do so it is because we are in intimate communion with God Himself -- He is our Father, the Father of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, so we can and do take the instructions from Christ's own mouth, for instance, as instructing us in exactly what God is like and what He wants and what He wills to do and all that other stuff. In Christ, we see the Father as He willed to be seen. Islam has nothing of that, so you worship disembodied attributes and abstraction, and condemn us for not being "logical" enough to renounce the direct experience of and communion with God by giving up Christianity and joining you in darkness and presupposition based on the supposed revelation of the living and eternal Word as deaf and dumb text. No thank you.

Can God create a square circle?
Btw, you yourselves can't understand the Trinity.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2013, 12:52:34 PM »
Can God create a square circle?

And just who decides the properties of a square or a circle in the first place -- God or man? It is disturbing that you still fail to grasp this point.

Quote
Btw, you yourselves can't understand the Trinity.

And yet that doesn't prevent us from worshiping the Holy Trinity...hmmm.

Besides, the Holy Trinity isn't necessarily something to be understood and processed rationally -- it's something to participated in via the Church and her sacraments. Shocking to a Muslim, I know, but you did ask the question that started this thread, which is likewise shocking to me (but, yes, I will grant you, very understandable)...  ;)

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2013, 12:56:59 PM »
Can God be limited and unlimited at the same time?

I don't see why not, since the categories of "limited" and "unlimited" are both relative to what man can do or what man thinks is possible and impossible according to his own logic. Considering God only within this scheme is at odds with God's own words in Isaiah 55:8-9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."

And that's not even from the New Testament.

Quote
God doesn't do the logically impossible, you want see God creating a square circle.

No, you don't do the logically impossible, because its your logic that's telling you what is logically impossible in the first place. Stop conflating your own limited and corrupted reasoning with God.

In Christianity, we can and do sometimes speak of certain things about God that are somewhat analogous to God's attributes or qualities as you guys do in Islam, so it's not like it's completely outside of our tradition to say "God doesn't do X". The important difference, however, is that when we do so it is because we are in intimate communion with God Himself -- He is our Father, the Father of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, so we can and do take the instructions from Christ's own mouth, for instance, as instructing us in exactly what God is like and what He wants and what He wills to do and all that other stuff. In Christ, we see the Father as He willed to be seen. Islam has nothing of that, so you worship disembodied attributes and abstraction, and condemn us for not being "logical" enough to renounce the direct experience of and communion with God by giving up Christianity and joining you in darkness and presupposition based on the supposed revelation of the living and eternal Word as deaf and dumb text. No thank you.

Can God create a square circle?
Btw, you yourselves can't understand the Trinity.

You're saying 'Can God create something that is not its own human definition, but remain its original human definition?'
Is saying 'God is good' the same as saying 'Jennifer is good'? No, it is obviously not. Human terms are limiting. What is a circle and what is a square? The two are logically impossible to 'cross over' only to humans who cannot observe or imagine such a thing.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2013, 01:14:47 PM »
Can God create a square circle?
Btw, you yourselves can't understand the Trinity.

You mean to tell me you know everything about Allah?  That's a terrible argument. God is infinite but is comprehensible. That makes a lot of sense.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Re: Why would the Creator allow Himself to be killed by His creation?
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2013, 01:52:47 PM »
Can God create a square circle?
Btw, you yourselves can't understand the Trinity.

You mean to tell me you know everything about Allah?  That's a terrible argument. God is infinite but is comprehensible. That makes a lot of sense.

Especially coming from a Muslim whose very definition of God is that He is incomprehensible and utterly transcendent.
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