Author Topic: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines  (Read 4183 times)

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Offline Jetavan

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Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« on: December 17, 2013, 09:28:10 PM »
New York, N.Y. - December 16, 2013 - A new Harris Poll finds that while a strong majority (74%) of U.S. adults do believe in God, this belief is in decline when compared to previous years as just over four in five (82%) expressed a belief in God in 2005, 2007 and 2009. Also, while majorities also believe in miracles (72%, down from 79% in 2005), heaven (68%, down from 75%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (68%, down from 72%), the resurrection of Jesus Christ (65%, down from 70%), the survival of the soul after death (64%, down from 69%), the devil, hell (both at 58%, down from 62%) and the Virgin birth (57%, down from 60%), these are all down from previous Harris Polls.

Belief in Darwin's theory of evolution, however, while well below levels recorded for belief in God, miracles and heaven, is up in comparison to 2005 findings (47%, up from 42%).
....
In a separate line of questioning, focused on Americans' degree of certainty that there is or is not a God, two-thirds of Americans (68%) indicate being either absolutely or somewhat certain that there is a God, while 54% specify being absolutely certain; these figures represent drops of 11 and 12 percentage points, respectively, from 2003 testing, where combined certainty was at 79% and absolute certainty was at 66%.
....
Outside of specific religious samples, the groups most likely to be absolutely certain there is a God include blacks (70%), Republicans (65%), Matures (62%) and Baby Boomers (60%), Southerners (61%) and Midwesterners (58%), and those with a high school education or less (60%).
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 10:22:14 PM »
This is great news for some, I'm sure. ::)

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 10:23:04 PM »
New York, N.Y. - December 16, 2013 - A new Harris Poll finds that while a strong majority (74%) of U.S. adults do believe in God, this belief is in decline when compared to previous years as just over four in five (82%) expressed a belief in God in 2005, 2007 and 2009. Also, while majorities also believe in miracles (72%, down from 79% in 2005), heaven (68%, down from 75%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (68%, down from 72%), the resurrection of Jesus Christ (65%, down from 70%), the survival of the soul after death (64%, down from 69%), the devil, hell (both at 58%, down from 62%) and the Virgin birth (57%, down from 60%), these are all down from previous Harris Polls.

Belief in Darwin's theory of evolution, however, while well below levels recorded for belief in God, miracles and heaven, is up in comparison to 2005 findings (47%, up from 42%).
....
In a separate line of questioning, focused on Americans' degree of certainty that there is or is not a God, two-thirds of Americans (68%) indicate being either absolutely or somewhat certain that there is a God, while 54% specify being absolutely certain; these figures represent drops of 11 and 12 percentage points, respectively, from 2003 testing, where combined certainty was at 79% and absolute certainty was at 66%.
....
Outside of specific religious samples, the groups most likely to be absolutely certain there is a God include blacks (70%), Republicans (65%), Matures (62%) and Baby Boomers (60%), Southerners (61%) and Midwesterners (58%), and those with a high school education or less (60%).

These figures should send chills down every believer's spine.  I don't care what we argue about here, people are losing faith in God & Christ at ALARMING rates.   5% since 2009.  Staggering.... Simply Staggering.  

My children will be in a near faithless society believing in evolution.  Pray for all youth, pray for yourselves as well, who will need the aid in your elderly years by the faithless.

Of all things, this is why I believe the end is drawing near - so many losing faith so quickly.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 10:27:44 PM »
Statistics are often misleading.

One thought that immediately comes to mind is how many of these people are actually consciously rejecting God opposed to merely forgetting about Him or simply not caring? Me thinks that the majority of these new godless folks would fall under the latter category than the former. Contrary to what the internet may tell you, atheists in America who consciously reject God and see the concept as being logically incoherent or something compose an EXTREMELY tiny minority of the American population. Most godless people in America are godless not because of a conscious rejection of God, but because they're simply busy and have never given the concept much thought.

In either case, I don't see why some people are so disturbed by this. To be honest, I'd rather have an America full of atheists than full of Evangelicals who believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, which seems to be the average American Christian.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 10:43:47 PM »
Quote
My children will be in a near faithless society believing in evolution.

What's wrong with believing in evolution? I'm not going to worry about these things. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.

Quote
Of all things, this is why I believe the end is drawing near - so many losing faith so quickly.

Sigh. People have been saying that forever; and I would argue that it's this kind of spontaneous hysteria that has turned people off of God and religion.

I think there is no reason to overreact. At the very least America will end up like the rest of the world in terms of religiosity.

Quote
In either case, I don't see why some people are so disturbed by this. To be honest, I'd rather have an America full of atheists than full of Evangelicals who believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, which seems to be the average American Christian.

I agree. I think the more sensible person would be an Atheist.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:45:09 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 10:45:38 PM »
Statistics are often misleading.

One thought that immediately comes to mind is how many of these people are actually consciously rejecting God opposed to merely forgetting about Him or simply not caring? Me thinks that the majority of these new godless folks would fall under the latter category than the former. Contrary to what the internet may tell you, atheists in America who consciously reject God and see the concept as being logically incoherent or something compose an EXTREMELY tiny minority of the American population. Most godless people in America are godless not because of a conscious rejection of God, but because they're simply busy and have never given the concept much thought.

In either case, I don't see why some people are so disturbed by this. To be honest, I'd rather have an America full of atheists than full of Evangelicals who believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, which seems to be the average American Christian.

Ten years ago, I would have agreed with you James....  But I'm really starting to hear some real rejection about God out there.  I don't know if its the age gap, but adults are pretty much "more forward" about it.  However, more or less polite to your face, but very disrespectful online.  There are more and more people that I seeing who are fully rejecting God, to the direct point of denial.  Saying such things as "I don't believe in the Bible stories or God", etc.

I absolutely believe we are headed towards the end days with this.   This is a huge number of people in just a few years.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 10:51:03 PM »
Quote
My children will be in a near faithless society believing in evolution.

What's wrong with believing in evolution? I'm not going to worry about these things. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.

Quote
Of all things, this is why I believe the end is drawing near - so many losing faith so quickly.

Sigh. People have been saying that forever; and I would argue that it's this kind of spontaneous hysteria that has turned people off of God and religion.

I think there is no reason to overreact. At the very least America will end up like the rest of the world in terms of religiosity.

Quote
In either case, I don't see why some people are so disturbed by this. To be honest, I'd rather have an America full of atheists than full of Evangelicals who believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, which seems to be the average American Christian.

I agree. I think the more sensible person would be an Atheist.

Because evolution is only a theory, and it defies the way God created things.

Which came first - the chicken or the egg?
There is an answer!

Yes people have said the end days are near for so long.  But we have things today in place with technology to make things possible that has never been before.  Such as the ability to have a one world currency and a beast marking to buy or sell.   All we need is a global currency crash, a bit of chaos and some starvation, and people will take anything to "get back to normal - because that mark of the beast stuff is so fake". 

If you are paying attention to economics, you'll know a currency crash in inevitable. 
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 11:01:16 PM »
Yeshuaisiam:

Those people have as much a right to disbelieve as you do to believe. There is no reason why you should care about how other people live their lives their own way.

Quote
Because evolution is only a theory, and it defies the way God created things.

Which came first - the chicken or the egg?
There is an answer!

That's just a folktale and a lie. No credible person rejects evolution. There is a theory of gravity and the theory of relativity too. Do you reject those facts too? Just a heads up, this nonsensical argument is why people are saying the things you object to so much, and no longer believe in this popular religion. And yes, they have proven that the chicken came first before the egg.

Quote
But we have things today in place with technology to make things possible that has never been before.  Such as the ability to have a one world currency and a beast marking to buy or sell.
I am having deja vu.

Quote
If you are paying attention to economics, you'll know a currency crash in inevitable. 
Yeah, I've listened to those people. There's nothing I can do about it, so what's the rational response to have? I'll give you a hint, not to start posting about end times conspiracies and other such idiosyncrasies on an internet forum.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 11:02:21 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 11:16:28 PM »
Yeshuaisiam:

Those people have as much a right to disbelieve as you do to believe. There is no reason why you should care about how other people live their lives their own way.

Quote
Because evolution is only a theory, and it defies the way God created things.

Which came first - the chicken or the egg?
There is an answer!

That's just a folktale and a lie. No credible person rejects evolution. There is a theory of gravity and the theory of relativity too. Do you reject those facts too? Just a heads up, this nonsensical argument is why people are saying the things you object to so much, and no longer believe in this popular religion. And yes, they have proven that the chicken came first before the egg.

Quote
But we have things today in place with technology to make things possible that has never been before.  Such as the ability to have a one world currency and a beast marking to buy or sell.
I am having deja vu.

Quote
If you are paying attention to economics, you'll know a currency crash in inevitable. 
Yeah, I've listened to those people. There's nothing I can do about it, so what's the rational response to have? I'll give you a hint, not to start posting about end times conspiracies and other such idiosyncrasies on an internet forum.

I'm sorry, did I say that people didn't have a right to believe or not?  I believe God gave us this right in freewill.

I disagree with what you said about evolution....  I think Darwinists would have rather Christ just killed off the cripple rather than heal him... You know, because of survival of the fittest.  It only makes sense you know?

Evolution is a mere joke that theorizes that somehow bees made the complex designs of their honeycomb, knew how to gather pollen, knew to make honey, cover it in wax, knew to protect the queen, knew how to communicate... all because of "instinct" that "evolved" through time.    So where did they learn to do that again?  Who/what taught the bees?

Who/what taught the chicken to incubate the egg and turn it?

Let me guess, you are going to answer that with something you can only "assume", then say "no credible person rejects evolution".

I'd still like to know who or what taught these animals to do this...

Living on a farm is amazing what you see, how God created things perfectly to work together.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 11:17:48 PM »
Yeshuaisiam: there is such a thing as "theistic evolution," you know. Or do you object to that idea as well?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 11:20:01 PM »
Let me add too - man has (or supposedly has)
Landed on the moon,
Made satellites
Built incredible technologies - autos - computers - internet
Industrialized most of the world
Built ships larger than cities

But man has never (not even once) created life out of non-living material.   Evolution gets destroyed, because it works in conjunction with the big bang - another theory.

And the difference between the Theory of gravity and the Theory of evolution is ridiculous.  Science labels gravity, something we are feeling right now as a Theory.  Evolution is based on assumptions.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 11:23:05 PM »
Yeshuaisiam: there is such a thing as "theistic evolution," you know. Or do you object to that idea as well?

I fully reject it.  I believe man was made in God's image.   

See I think:
Chimps are alive today
Man is also alive today

But there are not half chimp/human (you know like planet of the ape types) today.   If the source and product still exist, where is the median?   Another assumption by evolution - "they died off".   Sounds kind of like a flying spaghetti monster of Science decided to make something up.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 11:24:33 PM »
Yeshuaisiam: there is such a thing as "theistic evolution," you know. Or do you object to that idea as well?

Also, just to add, this type of thinking, and rejecting the teachings which we based our faith on, is most likely some of the reasons for the results of the poll above.  As people begin to accept Science or "theistic evolution", it opens the door to rejecting the scriptures and faith.
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Offline alexpetros

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2013, 01:44:43 AM »
Yeshuaisiam: there is such a thing as "theistic evolution," you know. Or do you object to that idea as well?

Also, just to add, this type of thinking, and rejecting the teachings which we based our faith on, is most likely some of the reasons for the results of the poll above.  As people begin to accept Science or "theistic evolution", it opens the door to rejecting the scriptures and faith.

Yeah, no. Not even true at all.

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2013, 05:14:03 AM »
Yeshuaisiam: there is such a thing as "theistic evolution," you know. Or do you object to that idea as well?

Also, just to add, this type of thinking, and rejecting the teachings which we based our faith on, is most likely some of the reasons for the results of the poll above.  As people begin to accept Science or "theistic evolution", it opens the door to rejecting the scriptures and faith.

Yeah, no. Not even true at all.

If anything, I would think that the Catholic Church accepting theistic evolution would make the Faith more plausible to the scientifically-minded. No one knows for sure, anyway.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 05:14:46 AM by lovesupreme »

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2013, 06:01:00 AM »
Quote
In either case, I don't see why some people are so disturbed by this. To be honest, I'd rather have an America full of atheists than full of Evangelicals who believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, which seems to be the average American Christian.

I agree. I think the more sensible person would be an Atheist.

What an absurd thing to say. The atheist may be wiser according to the world, but this will not save his soul from hell fire. At least the evangelical has some form of belief in our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the truth.

1 Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Offline alexpetros

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2013, 11:46:47 AM »
Yeshuaisiam: there is such a thing as "theistic evolution," you know. Or do you object to that idea as well?

Also, just to add, this type of thinking, and rejecting the teachings which we based our faith on, is most likely some of the reasons for the results of the poll above.  As people begin to accept Science or "theistic evolution", it opens the door to rejecting the scriptures and faith.

Yeah, no. Not even true at all.

If anything, I would think that the Catholic Church accepting theistic evolution would make the Faith more plausible to the scientifically-minded. No one knows for sure, anyway.

Right?
Lucky for me, my fiance is a biologist. I learned so much about what evolution really is, and not what the Creationists on one hand say, or what the media on the other hand says. If anything, the better understanding of evolution has made me appreciate God more, in that He placed in all living creatures, from bacteria up to humans, the ingrained instinct for survival, and the ability to adapt over time. I find it beautiful, and truly awe inspiring.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2013, 11:48:20 AM »
I've actually been more surprised at the number of young people that dont fall for the neckbeard Reddit atheism. Sure they aren't Christians but still believe in some kind of a God.

Anyway I am glad I have no doubt whatsoever on my faith. If only I could get my brain to start viewing more things as miracles I'll be good.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 11:49:27 AM by Shiny »
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2013, 12:27:45 PM »
Every government does propaganda, ours is no different. If faith is down it's because our government at the moment wants it to be down. Also from the late 19th century onward our higher institutions of learning (colleges and universities) evangelizes it's students into a form of non-belief or agnosticism.

We live bizzy lives and so we can't guard our faith and children like we use to. We rely more and more on government, institutions of higher learning, and corporations to think for us and to raise our children, and so if faith is going down it's because government, institutions of higher learning, and corporations want it to be.


Faith will go up in our bizzy society when government, institutions of higher learning, and corporations stop being so hostile. Faith will also go back up when this current government along with it's higher institutions of learning and corporations collapses. For every government comes and goes, this one is no different.   
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 12:32:35 PM »
Every government does propaganda, ours is no different. If faith is down it's because our government at the moment wants it to be down. Also from the late 19th century onward our higher institutions of learning (colleges and universities) evangelizes it's students into a form of non-belief or agnosticism.

We live bizzy lives and so we can't guard our faith and children like we use to. We rely more and more on government, institutions of higher learning, and corporations to think for us and to raise our children, and so if faith is going down it's because government, institutions of higher learning, and corporations want it to be.


Faith will go up in our bizzy society when government, institutions of higher learning, and corporations stop being so hostile. Faith will also go back up when this current government along with it's higher institutions of learning and corporations collapses. For every government comes and goes, this one is no different.   
When did government support religion in the U.S.?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2013, 12:44:11 PM »
Every government does propaganda, ours is no different. If faith is down it's because our government at the moment wants it to be down. Also from the late 19th century onward our higher institutions of learning (colleges and universities) evangelizes it's students into a form of non-belief or agnosticism.

We live bizzy lives and so we can't guard our faith and children like we use to. We rely more and more on government, institutions of higher learning, and corporations to think for us and to raise our children, and so if faith is going down it's because government, institutions of higher learning, and corporations want it to be.


Faith will go up in our bizzy society when government, institutions of higher learning, and corporations stop being so hostile. Faith will also go back up when this current government along with it's higher institutions of learning and corporations collapses. For every government comes and goes, this one is no different.   
When did government support religion in the U.S.?

From 1776 to about the time of the scopes trial. And even for some decades after that our government encouraged a friendly atmosphere for religion to thrive in this country. For some time now it's created an atmosphere more and more hostile to it.

You see, just as a government can create an atmosphere friendly or hostile for trade, business, ....ect. It can also create an environment friendly or hostile to religious expression in the public square. Observe religious expression in the public square in the 18th and 19th century in this country. It's not the same as what you see now in 2013.
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2013, 12:48:39 PM »
Believe it or not but a good number of our """secular""" institutions of higher learning were either started by religious groups in this country or they were heavily influenced by religious groups in this country (mainly Presbyterians and Congregationalists from New England. The New England education system had a huge influence on the whole country). Eventually the majority of these institutions became more and more secular.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 12:50:19 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2013, 12:53:32 PM »
I don't think the theory of evolution conflicts with belief in God, or any real religion. Even the origins of humans I think are compatible.

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2013, 12:54:51 PM »
Read this book here:
The Soul of the American University: From Protestant Establishment to Established Nonbelief
http://www.amazon.com/The-Soul-American-University-Establishment/dp/0195106504

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2013, 12:56:45 PM »
Quote
In either case, I don't see why some people are so disturbed by this. To be honest, I'd rather have an America full of atheists than full of Evangelicals who believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, which seems to be the average American Christian.

I agree. I think the more sensible person would be an Atheist.

What an absurd thing to say. The atheist may be wiser according to the world, but this will not save his soul from hell fire. At least the evangelical has some form of belief in our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the truth.

1 Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

And who are you to say the atheist will 'burn in hells fire'? It's odd you're even discussing which is 'worse'.

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2013, 01:00:41 PM »
I don't think the theory of evolution conflicts with belief in God, or any real religion. Even the origins of humans I think are compatible.

What I found interesting was that Princeton and other schools like it never had a problem with the Theory. They were teaching it way back in the 1860's. What turned them away from their religious association had more to do with Woodrow Wilson, the philosophy of logical positivism, and protestant sectarianism in general.
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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2013, 01:05:06 PM »
Quote
In either case, I don't see why some people are so disturbed by this. To be honest, I'd rather have an America full of atheists than full of Evangelicals who believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, which seems to be the average American Christian.

I agree. I think the more sensible person would be an Atheist.

What an absurd thing to say. The atheist may be wiser according to the world, but this will not save his soul from hell fire. At least the evangelical has some form of belief in our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the truth.

1 Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

And who are you to say the atheist will 'burn in hells fire'? It's odd you're even discussing which is 'worse'.


Please tell me where I said that the atheist will burn in hell. I said that his wisdom so-called will not save him.

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2013, 01:10:32 PM »
Quote
In either case, I don't see why some people are so disturbed by this. To be honest, I'd rather have an America full of atheists than full of Evangelicals who believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, which seems to be the average American Christian.

I agree. I think the more sensible person would be an Atheist.

What an absurd thing to say. The atheist may be wiser according to the world, but this will not save his soul from hell fire. At least the evangelical has some form of belief in our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the truth.

1 Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

And who are you to say the atheist will 'burn in hells fire'? It's odd you're even discussing which is 'worse'.


Please tell me where I said that the atheist will burn in hell. I said that his wisdom so-called will not save him.

I was paraphrasing, but it was indeed implied.
You said that 'his soul will not be saved from hell fire', which I feel is a pretty brash assumption to make about a whole lot of people.
What about positive and negative atheism?

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2013, 01:15:46 PM »
And Devin's alt account is back!
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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2013, 01:31:27 PM »
Yeshuaisiam: there is such a thing as "theistic evolution," you know. Or do you object to that idea as well?

Also, just to add, this type of thinking, and rejecting the teachings which we based our faith on, is most likely some of the reasons for the results of the poll above.  As people begin to accept Science or "theistic evolution", it opens the door to rejecting the scriptures and faith.

Yeah, no. Not even true at all.

If anything, I would think that the Catholic Church accepting theistic evolution would make the Faith more plausible to the scientifically-minded. No one knows for sure, anyway.

Right?
Lucky for me, my fiance is a biologist. I learned so much about what evolution really is, and not what the Creationists on one hand say, or what the media on the other hand says. If anything, the better understanding of evolution has made me appreciate God more, in that He placed in all living creatures, from bacteria up to humans, the ingrained instinct for survival, and the ability to adapt over time. I find it beautiful, and truly awe inspiring.

I am not a scientist by training or any means.  But the more I learn about biology, astronomy, particle physics, etc. the deeper is my faith in the Almighty. O Lord how marvelous are Your works!  In wisdom have You made them all.  And to go from this to the idea that out of this vast cosmos almost beyond measure, God became incarnate as a human - well, rather than haughty arrogance or incredulity, it should fill one with nothing but unspeakable awe.  I think Chesterton wrote about the experience of realizing that existence itself is miraculous, and everything multiplies by degrees on top of that. 

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2013, 01:34:47 PM »
Yeshuaisiam: there is such a thing as "theistic evolution," you know. Or do you object to that idea as well?

Also, just to add, this type of thinking, and rejecting the teachings which we based our faith on, is most likely some of the reasons for the results of the poll above.  As people begin to accept Science or "theistic evolution", it opens the door to rejecting the scriptures and faith.

Yeah, no. Not even true at all.

If anything, I would think that the Catholic Church accepting theistic evolution would make the Faith more plausible to the scientifically-minded. No one knows for sure, anyway.

Right?
Lucky for me, my fiance is a biologist. I learned so much about what evolution really is, and not what the Creationists on one hand say, or what the media on the other hand says. If anything, the better understanding of evolution has made me appreciate God more, in that He placed in all living creatures, from bacteria up to humans, the ingrained instinct for survival, and the ability to adapt over time. I find it beautiful, and truly awe inspiring.

I am not a scientist by training or any means.  But the more I learn about biology, astronomy, particle physics, etc. the deeper is my faith in the Almighty. O Lord how marvelous are Your works!  In wisdom have You made them all.  And to go from this to the idea that out of this vast cosmos almost beyond measure, God became incarnate as a human - well, rather than haughty arrogance or incredulity, it should fill one with nothing but unspeakable awe.  I think Chesterton wrote about the experience of realizing that existence itself is miraculous, and everything multiplies by degrees on top of that. 

For what is science, if it is not God's own way of operating the world?
Science and indeed 'theories' should not rock anyone's faith. Empirical evidence of science is empirical evidence of God's work. They don't conflict, as many assume they do.

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2013, 01:36:16 PM »
Yeshuaisiam: there is such a thing as "theistic evolution," you know. Or do you object to that idea as well?

Also, just to add, this type of thinking, and rejecting the teachings which we based our faith on, is most likely some of the reasons for the results of the poll above.  As people begin to accept Science or "theistic evolution", it opens the door to rejecting the scriptures and faith.

Yeah, no. Not even true at all.

If anything, I would think that the Catholic Church accepting theistic evolution would make the Faith more plausible to the scientifically-minded. No one knows for sure, anyway.

Right?
Lucky for me, my fiance is a biologist. I learned so much about what evolution really is, and not what the Creationists on one hand say, or what the media on the other hand says. If anything, the better understanding of evolution has made me appreciate God more, in that He placed in all living creatures, from bacteria up to humans, the ingrained instinct for survival, and the ability to adapt over time. I find it beautiful, and truly awe inspiring.

I am not a scientist by training or any means.  But the more I learn about biology, astronomy, particle physics, etc. the deeper is my faith in the Almighty. O Lord how marvelous are Your works!  In wisdom have You made them all.  And to go from this to the idea that out of this vast cosmos almost beyond measure, God became incarnate as a human - well, rather than haughty arrogance or incredulity, it should fill one with nothing but unspeakable awe.  I think Chesterton wrote about the experience of realizing that existence itself is miraculous, and everything multiplies by degrees on top of that. 

For what is science, if it is not God's own way of operating the world?
Science and indeed 'theories' should not rock anyone's faith. Empirical evidence of science is empirical evidence of God's work. They don't conflict, as many assume they do.

I think of it as science explaining the how, and religion explaining the why.  Science can't approach the second and religion need not always concern itself with the first. 

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2013, 01:37:11 PM »
Yeshuaisiam: there is such a thing as "theistic evolution," you know. Or do you object to that idea as well?

Also, just to add, this type of thinking, and rejecting the teachings which we based our faith on, is most likely some of the reasons for the results of the poll above.  As people begin to accept Science or "theistic evolution", it opens the door to rejecting the scriptures and faith.

Yeah, no. Not even true at all.

If anything, I would think that the Catholic Church accepting theistic evolution would make the Faith more plausible to the scientifically-minded. No one knows for sure, anyway.

Right?
Lucky for me, my fiance is a biologist. I learned so much about what evolution really is, and not what the Creationists on one hand say, or what the media on the other hand says. If anything, the better understanding of evolution has made me appreciate God more, in that He placed in all living creatures, from bacteria up to humans, the ingrained instinct for survival, and the ability to adapt over time. I find it beautiful, and truly awe inspiring.

I am not a scientist by training or any means.  But the more I learn about biology, astronomy, particle physics, etc. the deeper is my faith in the Almighty. O Lord how marvelous are Your works!  In wisdom have You made them all.  And to go from this to the idea that out of this vast cosmos almost beyond measure, God became incarnate as a human - well, rather than haughty arrogance or incredulity, it should fill one with nothing but unspeakable awe.  I think Chesterton wrote about the experience of realizing that existence itself is miraculous, and everything multiplies by degrees on top of that. 

For what is science, if it is not God's own way of operating the world?
Science and indeed 'theories' should not rock anyone's faith. Empirical evidence of science is empirical evidence of God's work. They don't conflict, as many assume they do.

I think of it as science explaining the how, and religion explaining the why.  Science can't approach the second and religion need not always concern itself with the first. 

Dead on. This. Just this.

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2013, 02:01:12 PM »
I was paraphrasing, but it was indeed implied.
You said that 'his soul will not be saved from hell fire', which I feel is a pretty brash assumption to make about a whole lot of people.

No that is not what I said. You continue to alter my words. Even in my first post I said that "this" [wisdom] will not save him. I'm not going to clarify it again. If you wish to continue misreading me, I cannot stop you.

What about positive and negative atheism?

I don't think this distinction is relevant here. Even if they are ignorant of Christianity, the existence of God is manifest to atheists; yet they disbelieve and are "without excuse" (Ro. 1:19-20). Their souls are in grave danger.

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2013, 02:07:03 PM »
I was paraphrasing, but it was indeed implied.
You said that 'his soul will not be saved from hell fire', which I feel is a pretty brash assumption to make about a whole lot of people.

No that is not what I said. You continue to alter my words. Even in my first post I said that "this" [wisdom] will not save him. I'm not going to clarify it again. If you wish to continue misreading me, I cannot stop you.

What about positive and negative atheism?

I don't think this distinction is relevant here. Even if they are ignorant of Christianity, the existence of God is manifest to atheists; yet they disbelieve and are "without excuse" (Ro. 1:19-20). Their souls are in grave danger.

Then I apologise for interpreting you wrongly. I do feel as though what I thought you meant could be implied from your post, though. Just saying.

I think it is relevant. Atheists may have excuses for their personal sin, just as others may have excuses for committing their own sin. And yet we should not judge them. Nobody's soul is completely 'safe', I would assume. So it just seems a little odd for you to act all high and mighty. Atheists can get a tough time, and although I will not judge as if I am God, I'm sure that a Christian who sins without care or repentance, judges, and is hateful, has a soul more in danger than an atheist who is not hateful, who is moralistic, and does not judge others for their beliefs.

Stop me here if I'm missing the point.

^ The ENTIRE way I worded this was shoddy, but it's not an excuse, I promise.
TL;DR An Atheist's wisdom, mislead as it may be, does not excuse your judgement of an entire group of people.
There are many people whose souls are in 'danger', including religious people's. Their wisdom is however not misplaced.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 02:11:14 PM by Mamizous »

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2013, 02:35:50 PM »
Then I apologise for interpreting you wrongly. I do feel as though what I thought you meant could be implied from your post, though. Just saying.

Perhaps I could have worded it better myself. I wanted however to stress the seriousness of the problem, as I judged it.

I think it is relevant. Atheists may have excuses for their personal sin, just as others may have excuses for committing their own sin. And yet we should not judge them.

They do not have an excuse for their atheism. I am not judging them by stating this, and neither was St. Paul. It is simply the truth of the matter.

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Nobody's soul is completely 'safe', I would assume.

We are of course in agreement here.

So it just seems a little odd for you to act all high and mighty. Atheists can get a tough time, and although I will not judge as if I am God, I'm sure that a Christian who sins without care or repentance, judges, and is hateful, has a soul more in danger than an atheist who is not hateful, who is moralistic, and does not judge others for their beliefs.

Stop me here if I'm missing the point.

^ The ENTIRE way I worded this was shoddy, but it's not an excuse, I promise.
TL;DR An Atheist's wisdom, mislead as it may be, does not excuse your judgement of an entire group of people.
There are many people whose souls are in 'danger', including religious people's. Their wisdom is however not misplaced.

I reject the accusations that I am judging atheists and acting pridefully, as well as the implication that I am "judging as if I am God," especially given that I have already clarified twice that I was not doing this. Your dichotomy of an unrepentant Christian and an atheist who lives justly is a red herring as my original point of dispute regarded the "sensibility" of an atheist who holds to evolution contra a young earth creationist Christian (posts #3 and #4). My statements have been in the context of this issue and not the issue of atheistic and Christian moral behavior. I believe you are lifting my statements out of their original context and placing them into another one which facilitates your accusations.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 02:42:19 PM by FormerCalvinist »

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2013, 02:42:45 PM »
Then I apologise for interpreting you wrongly. I do feel as though what I thought you meant could be implied from your post, though. Just saying.

Perhaps I could have worded it better myself. I wanted however to stress the seriousness of the problem, as I judged it.

I think it is relevant. Atheists may have excuses for their personal sin, just as others may have excuses for committing their own sin. And yet we should not judge them.

They do not have an excuse for their atheism. I am not judging them by stating this, and neither was St. Paul. It is simply the truth of the matter.

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Nobody's soul is completely 'safe', I would assume.

We are of course in agreement here.

So it just seems a little odd for you to act all high and mighty. Atheists can get a tough time, and although I will not judge as if I am God, I'm sure that a Christian who sins without care or repentance, judges, and is hateful, has a soul more in danger than an atheist who is not hateful, who is moralistic, and does not judge others for their beliefs.

Stop me here if I'm missing the point.

^ The ENTIRE way I worded this was shoddy, but it's not an excuse, I promise.
TL;DR An Atheist's wisdom, mislead as it may be, does not excuse your judgement of an entire group of people.
There are many people whose souls are in 'danger', including religious people's. Their wisdom is however not misplaced.

I reject the accusations that I am judging atheists and acting pridefully, as well as the implication that I am "judging as if I am God," especially given that I have already clarified twice that I was not doing this. Your dichotomy of an unrepentant Christian and a atheist who lives justly is a red herring as my original point of dispute regarded the "sensibility" of an atheist who holds to evolution contra a young earth creationist Christian (posts #3 and #4). My statements have been in the context of this issue and not the issue of atheistic and Christian moral behavior. I believe you are lifting my statements out of their original context and placing them into another one which facilitates your accusations.

Ah, I did not mean to implicate that you were judging as if you were God, I merely was trying to illustrate that you can't group together atheists as one whole body. I said that -I- would not judge as if I was God, not -you-. I mean, my only concern with your comment really was that you were being brash, stating that their souls' are in grave danger, even if that's evident in scripture, I believe that you're not giving due attention to cases of negative atheism, for example.
To be honest, I went on a tangent with the whole story of a repentant atheist and a misled Christian, and I'm trying to see myself where I thought it would fit in with my argument. My entire response is a mishmash, which I shouldn't use as an excuse, but it's really difficult to put my objection into words right now, so I'm sorry.
I'm not trying to lift what you're saying out of context, more to make you realise that atheists don't deserve that much slack, even if their souls are in grave danger. Back to my original comment, I'm just surprised that you're even debating who is 'worse'. But you're right, I did go off on a bit of a tangent and start taking interpretations as fact, so please forgive me, I'm not all that bad. Just mixed up. Haha.

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2013, 03:02:23 PM »
Ah, I did not mean to implicate that you were judging as if you were God, I merely was trying to illustrate that you can't group together atheists as one whole body. I said that -I- would not judge as if I was God, not -you-. I mean, my only concern with your comment really was that you were being brash, stating that their souls' are in grave danger, even if that's evident in scripture, I believe that you're not giving due attention to cases of negative atheism, for example.
To be honest, I went on a tangent with the whole story of a repentant atheist and a misled Christian, and I'm trying to see myself where I thought it would fit in with my argument. My entire response is a mishmash, which I shouldn't use as an excuse, but it's really difficult to put my objection into words right now, so I'm sorry.
I'm not trying to lift what you're saying out of context, more to make you realise that atheists don't deserve that much slack, even if their souls are in grave danger. Back to my original comment, I'm just surprised that you're even debating who is 'worse'. But you're right, I did go off on a bit of a tangent and start taking interpretations as fact, so please forgive me, I'm not all that bad. Just mixed up. Haha.

I apologize as well for offending you if I have done so. It may be better to let the matter drop at this point, as I think we may have just been talking past each other, since I caused the original intent of my posts to be lost due to my brashness and lack of clarity.

I would still like to hear a justification, though, from the posters I was originally responding to (#3 and #4), and their idea that belief in young earth creationism is so ignorant that it would be more sensible or preferable for someone to disbelieve in God.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 03:02:49 PM by FormerCalvinist »

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2013, 03:03:12 PM »
Accidental duplicate post.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 03:14:16 PM by FormerCalvinist »

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2013, 03:03:39 PM »
Another accidental duplicate post.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 03:14:34 PM by FormerCalvinist »

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2013, 03:05:23 PM »
Ah, I did not mean to implicate that you were judging as if you were God, I merely was trying to illustrate that you can't group together atheists as one whole body. I said that -I- would not judge as if I was God, not -you-. I mean, my only concern with your comment really was that you were being brash, stating that their souls' are in grave danger, even if that's evident in scripture, I believe that you're not giving due attention to cases of negative atheism, for example.
To be honest, I went on a tangent with the whole story of a repentant atheist and a misled Christian, and I'm trying to see myself where I thought it would fit in with my argument. My entire response is a mishmash, which I shouldn't use as an excuse, but it's really difficult to put my objection into words right now, so I'm sorry.
I'm not trying to lift what you're saying out of context, more to make you realise that atheists don't deserve that much slack, even if their souls are in grave danger. Back to my original comment, I'm just surprised that you're even debating who is 'worse'. But you're right, I did go off on a bit of a tangent and start taking interpretations as fact, so please forgive me, I'm not all that bad. Just mixed up. Haha.

I apologize as well for offending you if I have done so. It may be better to let the matter drop at this point, as I think we may have just been talking past each other, since I caused the original intent of my posts to be lost due to my brashness and lack of clarity.

I would still like to hear a justification, though, from the posters I was originally responding to (#3 and #4), and their idea that belief in young earth creationism is so ignorant that it would be more sensible or preferable for someone to disbelieve in God.

Surely, I think it's best to agree on what we agree on, and agree to disagree on any other matters I've raised poorly. And I was never offended, but it's just good to make sure since it's hard to tell through text... many things are implicated, as we've seen from the results of this situation.
In regards to that though, I think you're right. It's not more preferable, I don't think. They're both bad for their own reasons, and shouldn't be compared, which was MY issue in the first place.

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2013, 03:13:04 PM »
Ah, I did not mean to implicate that you were judging as if you were God, I merely was trying to illustrate that you can't group together atheists as one whole body. I said that -I- would not judge as if I was God, not -you-. I mean, my only concern with your comment really was that you were being brash, stating that their souls' are in grave danger, even if that's evident in scripture, I believe that you're not giving due attention to cases of negative atheism, for example.
To be honest, I went on a tangent with the whole story of a repentant atheist and a misled Christian, and I'm trying to see myself where I thought it would fit in with my argument. My entire response is a mishmash, which I shouldn't use as an excuse, but it's really difficult to put my objection into words right now, so I'm sorry.
I'm not trying to lift what you're saying out of context, more to make you realise that atheists don't deserve that much slack, even if their souls are in grave danger. Back to my original comment, I'm just surprised that you're even debating who is 'worse'. But you're right, I did go off on a bit of a tangent and start taking interpretations as fact, so please forgive me, I'm not all that bad. Just mixed up. Haha.

I apologize as well for offending you if I have done so. It may be better to let the matter drop at this point, as I think we may have just been talking past each other, since I caused the original intent of my posts to be lost due to my brashness and lack of clarity.

I would still like to hear a justification, though, from the posters I was originally responding to (#3 and #4), and their ideas that belief in young earth creationism is so ignorant that it would be more sensible or preferable for someone to disbelieve in God.
I don't think it should be all that surprising that many people would find it more sensible to disbelieve in God if one were required to believe in a 6000-year old Earth in order to be a Christian (or a theist).
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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2013, 03:14:54 PM »
Ah, I did not mean to implicate that you were judging as if you were God, I merely was trying to illustrate that you can't group together atheists as one whole body. I said that -I- would not judge as if I was God, not -you-. I mean, my only concern with your comment really was that you were being brash, stating that their souls' are in grave danger, even if that's evident in scripture, I believe that you're not giving due attention to cases of negative atheism, for example.
To be honest, I went on a tangent with the whole story of a repentant atheist and a misled Christian, and I'm trying to see myself where I thought it would fit in with my argument. My entire response is a mishmash, which I shouldn't use as an excuse, but it's really difficult to put my objection into words right now, so I'm sorry.
I'm not trying to lift what you're saying out of context, more to make you realise that atheists don't deserve that much slack, even if their souls are in grave danger. Back to my original comment, I'm just surprised that you're even debating who is 'worse'. But you're right, I did go off on a bit of a tangent and start taking interpretations as fact, so please forgive me, I'm not all that bad. Just mixed up. Haha.

I apologize as well for offending you if I have done so. It may be better to let the matter drop at this point, as I think we may have just been talking past each other, since I caused the original intent of my posts to be lost due to my brashness and lack of clarity.

I would still like to hear a justification, though, from the posters I was originally responding to (#3 and #4), and their ideas that belief in young earth creationism is so ignorant that it would be more sensible or preferable for someone to disbelieve in God.
I don't think it should be all that surprising that many people would find it more sensible to disbelieve in God if one were required to believe in a 6000-year old Earth in order to be a Christian (or a theist).

Fortunately that is not a Christian/theistic absolute.

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2013, 05:48:11 PM »
Religious participation, by county

"This map, made from RCMS data, shows the counties where religious participation per capita—adherents divided by population—was highest."
"The publican’s prayers overcame God, although God is invincible. Nineveh was saved by its tears from the impending ruin caused by its sin.” (St. Jerome, Letter 16.1)

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2013, 06:01:47 PM »
Religious participation, by county

"This map, made from RCMS data, shows the counties where religious participation per capita—adherents divided by population—was highest."
Washington Post
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 06:03:42 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

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Re: Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2013, 06:03:34 PM »
Oh yeah...  ;D

Washington Post

"The publican’s prayers overcame God, although God is invincible. Nineveh was saved by its tears from the impending ruin caused by its sin.” (St. Jerome, Letter 16.1)