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Author Topic: Why Not Douay English Speaking Orthodox?  (Read 3392 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 16, 2013, 09:15:41 PM »

So I was just wondering why English speaking Orthodox seem to use the KJV and not the Douay. I know the OCA uses the New King James Version and I do have a family KJV. As a traditional Catholic I pretty much thought "Protestant Bibles" worthy of burning and even burned some in my zeal. My patron is Thomas More, so I thought he would approve if you have read about his zeal against Protestantism in England before Henry's schism. I remember burning one of those you can find in a hotel room. I actually think the KJV is good as a fan of English literature, given its deep influence on English literature and language. I have been reading the Jerusalem translation, a Catholic translation closer to the original which began with a desire of Pius XII to have a new translation into the vernacular based on the more original texts and languages. I actually like the Jerusalem a lot though I did give a look at the KJV for the sake of English literature when reading Job for my class and I must admit the language is much more beautiful, even if the Jerusalem is closer to the original.

Anyway, why do Western Orthodox use the "Protestant" translations for English rather than the "Roman Catholic" translations. I've always read the Douay and Jerusalem myself since becoming Catholic but is there a particular reason the New King James is used rather than some "Catholic" translation.

And on a personal level what is your favourite translation for personal use? Just curious.

I prefer the Jerusalem for being more accurate to the original, but I do like the King James Version for it's literary beauty and influence and I suppose still like the Douay.
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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 10:37:39 PM »

Anyway, why do Western Orthodox use the "Protestant" translations for English rather than the "Roman Catholic" translations. I've always read the Douay and Jerusalem myself since becoming Catholic but is there a particular reason the New King James is used rather than some "Catholic" translation.

If, by "Western Orthodox", you simply mean Orthodox Christians in the West, I suspect it might have to do with the fact that "Protestant" translations like the (N)KJV are translations from Greek and not from Latin (e.g., Douay-Rheims, Knox).  Perhaps Western Rite Orthodox use these latter translations more regularly, but that's just a guess. 

Quote
And on a personal level what is your favourite translation for personal use? Just curious.

My default is the RSV.  For study purposes, I will compare it with the NASB, NKJV, Knox, Jerusalem, JPS (OT only), and Greek and Syriac if I need/want to be really thorough.
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« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 10:43:50 PM »

Most "official" Bible translations used in American archdioceses are bastardized--using one English translation or other as a base and then editing them to conform to the Greek. There has yet to be a truly official, blessed Orthodox English translation.

Some Orthodox use the Douay-Rheims, but this translation has its own problems. Some editions have Roman Catholic interpolations. There are also discrepancies between the Vulgate (of whatever version) and the Septuagint OT and Greek NT (of whatever version).
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2013, 10:51:10 PM »

... As a traditional Catholic I pretty much thought "Protestant Bibles" worthy of burning and even burned some in my zeal. My patron is Thomas More, so I thought he would approve if you have read about his zeal against Protestantism in England before Henry's schism. I remember burning one of those you can find in a hotel room ...

The Catechism of Pope Pius X recommends burning Protestant Bibles as well.

Quote
32 Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?

A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/catechsm/piusxcat.htm#Virtues
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 01:44:54 PM »


Anyway, why do Western Orthodox use the "Protestant" translations for English rather than the "Roman Catholic" translations. I've always read the Douay and Jerusalem myself since becoming Catholic but is there a particular reason the New King James is used rather than some "Catholic" translation.
Why should we prefer a "Catholic" translation?

Translation is an inexact art, no matter who is doing it.
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 01:56:37 PM »

In English-speaking "western" christian tradition, Protestants simply printed more Bibles.  Which, more than likely, are KJV or derivatives thereof.  To this day, I have never held a Douay translation of the Bible in my hands.  I can trip over a KJV even in a hotel.
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 02:29:09 PM »

In English-speaking "western" christian tradition, Protestants simply printed more Bibles.  Which, more than likely, are KJV or derivatives thereof.  To this day, I have never held a Douay translation of the Bible in my hands.  I can trip over a KJV even in a hotel.

I'm not a big fan of the Douay-Rheims.  I would say I prefer the KJV over it, but that's not saying much.  I appreciate the beauty of the language, but I can't really use it profitably for Bible study (even for devotional reading, the only benefit it affords me is that it forces me to read more slowly, but that can be done without the KJV if you practice discipline). 

The so-called Confraternity version, however, which was a revision of Challoner's revision of the DR, is another story.  That's a Roman Catholic translation I enjoy reading.  It's too bad it didn't get completed and that the NAB (ugh!) took its place.   
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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 02:39:27 PM »

In English-speaking "western" christian tradition, Protestants simply printed more Bibles.  Which, more than likely, are KJV or derivatives thereof.  To this day, I have never held a Douay translation of the Bible in my hands.  I can trip over a KJV even in a hotel.

I'm not a big fan of the Douay-Rheims.  I would say I prefer the KJV over it, but that's not saying much.  I appreciate the beauty of the language, but I can't really use it profitably for Bible study (even for devotional reading, the only benefit it affords me is that it forces me to read more slowly, but that can be done without the KJV if you practice discipline). 

The so-called Confraternity version, however, which was a revision of Challoner's revision of the DR, is another story.  That's a Roman Catholic translation I enjoy reading.  It's too bad it didn't get completed and that the NAB (ugh!) took its place.   

I've been using my RSV for study, but I like reading my KJV Bible.  I was an English Lit major, so I enjoy early modern English and believe it is lovely; and it does make me concentrate on what's written, since, every now and then, I have to pull out a dictionary.

I also use the Psalter for Prayer, which is an adaptation of Coverdale's translation of the Bible.  I love reading it out loud.
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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 02:47:50 PM »

I also use the Psalter for Prayer, which is an adaptation of Coverdale's translation of the Bible.  I love reading it out loud.

I really hope Jordanville will put out a smaller version of this book, even if a lot of the "extra" material has to be omitted in favour of printing only the psalms and canticles.  I would use it more often, but I can't afford an analogion.  Tongue
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 02:51:00 PM »

I also use the Psalter for Prayer, which is an adaptation of Coverdale's translation of the Bible.  I love reading it out loud.

I really hope Jordanville will put out a smaller version of this book, even if a lot of the "extra" material has to be omitted in favour of printing only the psalms and canticles.  I would use it more often, but I can't afford an analogion.  Tongue

Hahaha, I know what you mean.  The text is just the right size, but the book itself is cumbersome.  I can't take it to work or anywhere without getting a few odd looks.
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 03:28:21 PM »

I also use the Psalter for Prayer, which is an adaptation of Coverdale's translation of the Bible.  I love reading it out loud.

I really hope Jordanville will put out a smaller version of this book, even if a lot of the "extra" material has to be omitted in favour of printing only the psalms and canticles.  I would use it more often, but I can't afford an analogion.  Tongue

David James says they are considering either A) simply publishing a smaller version of the psalter or B) stuffing the psalter and the Jordanville prayerbook into one handy volume.
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 03:29:47 PM »

I may be interested in the second one. It would be nice not to have to carry around two books but just one instead.
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 03:34:56 PM »

David James says they are considering either A) simply publishing a smaller version of the psalter or B) stuffing the psalter and the Jordanville prayerbook into one handy volume.

Both are great ideas, but I'd be pretty excited about B). 
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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 03:35:08 PM »

I remember burning one of those you can find in a hotel room.

I hope you have confessed this sacriledge.

... As a traditional Catholic I pretty much thought "Protestant Bibles" worthy of burning and even burned some in my zeal. My patron is Thomas More, so I thought he would approve if you have read about his zeal against Protestantism in England before Henry's schism. I remember burning one of those you can find in a hotel room ...

The Catechism of Pope Pius X recommends burning Protestant Bibles as well.

Quote
32 Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?

A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/catechsm/piusxcat.htm#Virtues

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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 03:36:53 PM »

Anyway, why do Western Orthodox use the "Protestant" translations for English rather than the "Roman Catholic" translations. I've always read the Douay and Jerusalem myself since becoming Catholic but is there a particular reason the New King James is used rather than some "Catholic" translation.

If, by "Western Orthodox", you simply mean Orthodox Christians in the West, I suspect it might have to do with the fact that "Protestant" translations like the (N)KJV are translations from Greek and not from Latin (e.g., Douay-Rheims, Knox).  Perhaps Western Rite Orthodox use these latter translations more regularly, but that's just a guess. 

Quote
And on a personal level what is your favourite translation for personal use? Just curious.

My default is the RSV.  For study purposes, I will compare it with the NASB, NKJV, Knox, Jerusalem, JPS (OT only), and Greek and Syriac if I need/want to be really thorough.

Yup, I think Mor is right on this one. The Latin New Testament's Western-type readings are looked at in suspicion, whereas the Byzantine-type used in the KJV is the default for the Eastern Orthodox. I wouldn't get rid of Protestant Bibles unless they were like the anti-Catholic type ones that I had. I like the ESV, it's a good translation.

I generally read the Scriptures online, so I don't really have a preference; unless it's those dynamic equivalence ones.
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 03:41:38 PM »

I generally read the Scriptures online...

Ugh!  Tongue
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 03:57:35 PM »

David James says they are considering either A) simply publishing a smaller version of the psalter or B) stuffing the psalter and the Jordanville prayerbook into one handy volume.

Both are great ideas, but I'd be pretty excited about B). 

Pardon me if you already explained this before, but are you currently attending an EO or Indian Orthodox parish? What's your take on the EO/OO divide anyway?
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 04:03:30 PM »

Yeah, and I did it all with a clean conscious, though now I am not sure burning a Protestant translation was right. But hey St. Pius X said to do it and my patron would have done it as he burned Protestants with joy, too. Of course even the Protestant minister Jonathan Swift said that Thomas More was the greatest man to ever be known in England, if not for his zeal for Rome for his natural virtues and bravery. Whatever one thinks of Thomas More's zeal for burning Protestants, I think it is hard to deny his bravery in upholding his principles even in fear of death. In any case I have the King James version and the Vulgate on my phone. Of course I do not think Catholics have to get rid of Protestant Bible's any more, though I suppose radical Catholic traditionalists would say they do. I argued with some trad friends who still think you have to get permission from your parish priest to read a book on the Index, which of course was done away with by the pope himself. Of course this is one of the problems for Catholic trad--they listen to the pope when it pleases their view of "tradition", but when it  does not they choose not to. I was Catholic then and simply said it might be good not to read those book, but if school or some desire to read them to understand the idiots who wrote these books was you desire you needed not permission. It's not a sin, but can lead to sin and be careful was my view. They thought it was a mortal sin though.

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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2013, 04:11:44 PM »

By the way I think the biggest danger in Protestant translations from a Catholic point of view is that the footnotes and commentary may have a very Protestant sense of theology which may even be danger to Orthodox Christian theology, especially the more ridiculous modern translations by Protestants. But the same on more modern Catholic translations can be said. The King James Version and other more sensible Protestant translations are usually not bad in themselves. Like I have read the King James in college classes and I do not think, as some trad Catholic may, that I needed to get permission. In fact I will be reading some of the Koran next semester and wait till we get to Marx! Of course, interestingly, Marx is not on the Index. I told a trad friend who thinks reading books on the Index is a sin without permission and he said, "Still dangerous to read."
    "Yeah, maybe. Marx gave a lot of grief to the world, but he made some good points and all the bad ones he made need to be understood. It does not help that right wingers call anyone a Marxist who thinks we need to seriously reform the healthcare system. After all what is Marxism? Well to know that it helps to read what Marx said, not just what Rush Limbaugh says he said."
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2013, 04:14:51 PM »

I also use the Psalter for Prayer, which is an adaptation of Coverdale's translation of the Bible.  I love reading it out loud.

I really hope Jordanville will put out a smaller version of this book, even if a lot of the "extra" material has to be omitted in favour of printing only the psalms and canticles.  I would use it more often, but I can't afford an analogion.  Tongue

David James says they are considering either A) simply publishing a smaller version of the psalter or B) stuffing the psalter and the Jordanville prayerbook into one handy volume.

I don't think one volume would be that much handy.
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2013, 04:19:14 PM »

Pardon me if you already explained this before, but are you currently attending an EO or Indian Orthodox parish? What's your take on the EO/OO divide anyway?

Seriously?  Tongue
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2013, 04:25:08 PM »

King James commissioned the KJV in opposition to the Calvinists, so most of the problems of Protestantism won't show up in it.  Conversely, the Douay Version was made to teach Ultramontanism, so its errors are there, including St. Jerome's error of using the Hebrew, the real problem with all these translations.
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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2013, 04:29:52 PM »

Pardon me if you already explained this before, but are you currently attending an EO or Indian Orthodox parish? What's your take on the EO/OO divide anyway?

Seriously?  Tongue

I'm just curious. You don't have to respond if it's annoying.
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« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2013, 04:32:30 PM »

Burning books is barbaric.

Anyway, AFAIK there's no "official" Orthodox translation.
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« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2013, 05:00:06 PM »

In English-speaking "western" christian tradition, Protestants simply printed more Bibles.  Which, more than likely, are KJV or derivatives thereof.  To this day, I have never held a Douay translation of the Bible in my hands.  I can trip over a KJV even in a hotel.

I'm not a big fan of the Douay-Rheims.  I would say I prefer the KJV over it, but that's not saying much.  I appreciate the beauty of the language, but I can't really use it profitably for Bible study (even for devotional reading, the only benefit it affords me is that it forces me to read more slowly, but that can be done without the KJV if you practice discipline). 

The so-called Confraternity version, however, which was a revision of Challoner's revision of the DR, is another story.  That's a Roman Catholic translation I enjoy reading.  It's too bad it didn't get completed and that the NAB (ugh!) took its place.   
The Confraternity did actually finish the OT, it just never published all the books in one volume as Samuel to Maccabees wasn't finished until 1969 and the NAB was coming out the next year.  It is my favorite as well.  One thing I found interesting is the Revised NAB went back to many of the Confraternity's translation choices.
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2013, 05:02:19 PM »

Burning books is barbaric.

Except when it happens in the New Testament?  police
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2013, 05:25:36 PM »

The originalDouay has a lot of literal translations of the Latin in it, and it hard to read.  Challoner revised it around 1752, but borrowed heavily from the KJV.  Would it benefit us to read Challoner's edition? /shrug. Huh
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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2013, 05:26:45 PM »

King James commissioned the KJV in opposition to the Calvinists, so most of the problems of Protestantism won't show up in it.  Conversely, the Douay Version was made to teach Ultramontanism, so its errors are there, including St. Jerome's error of using the Hebrew, the real problem with all these translations.

Error of using Hebrew? The original language of the old testament?  I prefer the septuagint but at the same time it must be admitted that the Greek can sometimes be controversial as sometimes it differed with its Hebrew counterparts.

FYI the Hebrew text St.Jerome used is not the same as the masoretic script used today  
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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2013, 05:32:12 PM »

King James commissioned the KJV in opposition to the Calvinists, so most of the problems of Protestantism won't show up in it.  Conversely, the Douay Version was made to teach Ultramontanism, so its errors are there, including St. Jerome's error of using the Hebrew, the real problem with all these translations.

Error of using Hebrew? The original language of the old testament?  I prefer the septuagint but at the same time it must be admitted that the Greek can sometimes be controversial as sometimes it differed with its Hebrew counterparts.

Where it differs preference should be given to the Septuagint.
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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2013, 05:33:07 PM »

The KJV translators on the original Douay-Rheims translation:

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Lastly, we have on the one side avoided the scrupulosity of the Puritans, who leave the old Ecclesiastical words, and betake them to other, as when they put WASHING for BAPTISM, and CONGREGATION instead of CHURCH: as also on the other side we have shunned the obscurity of the Papists, in their AZIMES, TUNIKE, RATIONAL, HOLOCAUSTS, PRAEPUCE, PASCHE, and a number of such like, whereof their late Translation is full, and that of purpose to darken the sense, that since they must needs translate the Bible, yet by the language thereof, it may be kept from being understood. But we desire that the Scripture may speak like itself, as in the language of Canaan, that it may be understood even of the very vulgar.

http://www.ccel.org/bible/kjv/preface/pref10.htm
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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2013, 05:41:00 PM »

Burning books is barbaric.

Anyway, AFAIK there's no "official" Orthodox translation.
In English, no, but the Oxford Revised Standard got approval from all the Orthodox authorities in GB.
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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2013, 05:41:57 PM »

I can't speak to the RSV's accuracy, but stylistically I hate it.
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2013, 05:42:15 PM »

King James commissioned the KJV in opposition to the Calvinists, so most of the problems of Protestantism won't show up in it.  Conversely, the Douay Version was made to teach Ultramontanism, so its errors are there, including St. Jerome's error of using the Hebrew, the real problem with all these translations.

Error of using Hebrew? The original language of the old testament?  I prefer the septuagint but at the same time it must be admitted that the Greek can sometimes be controversial as sometimes it differed with its Hebrew counterparts.

FYI the Hebrew text St.Jerome used is not the same as the masoretic script used today  
It's not, compounding the error.
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« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2013, 05:54:58 PM »

I'm just curious. You don't have to respond if it's annoying.

No, it's not annoying, I'm just surprised you had a doubt.  I attend an OO parish (not Indian, currently too far away), visiting an EO church from time to time.  As for my take on the division, that's probably better done in another thread, but basically, I think it is an instance where what is bound on earth is loosed in heaven.   
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« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2013, 05:58:55 PM »

The Confraternity did actually finish the OT, it just never published all the books in one volume as Samuel to Maccabees wasn't finished until 1969 and the NAB was coming out the next year.  It is my favorite as well.  One thing I found interesting is the Revised NAB went back to many of the Confraternity's translation choices.

I didn't know that, thanks!  Can the entire Confraternity Bible be purchased anywhere?  Or at least "the missing books"? 

I have very little to say about the NAB that is good, but I will say this much: its translation of Luke 9.31 is easily my favourite out of all English translations, whatever its inelegance. 
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2013, 05:59:52 PM »

I can't speak to the RSV's accuracy, but stylistically I hate it.

May I ask why? 

And what translation do you prefer?  And why?  Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2013, 06:18:54 PM »

The KJV/NKJV translation is a very good Anglican translation, a time when the Church of England was very much Catholic, so there is not as much a concern for Protestant bias such as in the NIV or some other modern Protestant/Evangelical translation.

I've also always liked the ESV. A literal translation that is in modern, readable English. Have any of you guys seen the EOB? It looks like a pretty good Orthodox translation.

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« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2013, 06:35:18 PM »

I'm just curious. You don't have to respond if it's annoying.

No, it's not annoying, I'm just surprised you had a doubt. 

I ask because you seem to be moving comfortably between the two communions (e.g. attending SVOTS, showing interest in a ROCOR psalter)

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I attend an OO parish (not Indian, currently too far away), visiting an EO church from time to time.  As for my take on the division, that's probably better done in another thread, but basically, I think it is an instance where what is bound on earth is loosed in heaven.   

Fair enough. Thanks for answering.
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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2013, 08:03:15 PM »

Yeah I came from a Mormon mentality that the King James is the ONLY version, and yet it's wrong. Joe Smith translated some stuff "properly" but it's in it's own little book, as if it's not important enough for Smith to offer his faithful an "accurate" translation given to him by the holy seeing hat. Then pretty soon went into trad Catholicism where it's pretty much the Douay, though I have noticed the English translation of the readings that the priest would give were different in my translation in the missal. I am not sure what the translation is for the Latin Mass readings. So it's good to get all this insight on translation and the problems with it. I think that is one reason Pius XII wanted a more direct translation rather than from the Vulgate.
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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2013, 08:13:55 PM »

I also use the Psalter for Prayer, which is an adaptation of Coverdale's translation of the Bible.  I love reading it out loud.

I really hope Jordanville will put out a smaller version of this book, even if a lot of the "extra" material has to be omitted in favour of printing only the psalms and canticles.  I would use it more often, but I can't afford an analogion.  Tongue

I have it, but don't like it, mostly because I find Coverdale weird and attempts to Orthodoxize it weirder. But it's available on Kindle, if you have the device or the app.
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« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2013, 08:15:30 PM »

I generally read the Scriptures online...

Ugh!  Tongue

Sort of like emails from God.
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« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2013, 08:16:17 PM »

Pardon me if you already explained this before, but are you currently attending an EO or Indian Orthodox parish? What's your take on the EO/OO divide anyway?

Seriously?  Tongue

Is this a Mor Ephrem meet Iconodule moment?
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« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2013, 09:07:34 PM »

I ask because you seem to be moving comfortably between the two communions (e.g. attending SVOTS, showing interest in a ROCOR psalter)

When I was in college, my adopted parish was OCA (the Copts in the area were a mission, and they only had Saturday services, so I'd go there too when they were meeting).  Once in a blue moon, I'd venture off to the local ROCOR parish.  That experience plus SVS made me comfortable with the Byzantine rite...I definitely prefer Syriac, but I can go back and forth easily between the two.  That's been a saving grace in recent travels, as I was at least an hour away from the nearest OO church, but within walking distance of a few EO churches, one of which I adopted.  The OO churches were Coptic and Armenian, so I had to become familiar with those traditions, which has served me well in my present situation. 

Regarding the Psalter, I like books and I like King David.  Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2013, 09:09:26 PM »

I have it, but don't like it, mostly because I find Coverdale weird and attempts to Orthodoxize it weirder. But it's available on Kindle, if you have the device or the app.

No Kindle, no iPad, nothing.  Just books.  Tongue

Sort of like emails from God.

If he does that, certainly he must be doing it from Nigeria. 

Is this a Mor Ephrem meet Iconodule moment?

I thought we'd already met, which is why I was thrown off by the question.  Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2013, 09:28:08 PM »

I read the thread title as:

Why Not Donut English Speaking Orthodox?

Too many donuts at coffee hour!

Some parishes that I have attended read the OSB (NKJV).
But the OCA parishes would use the Revised Standard Version.
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