Author Topic: Pope Dioscorus  (Read 1424 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gueranger

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 332
  • Lord Jesus, have mercy on me. BVM, pray for me.
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
Pope Dioscorus
« on: January 20, 2014, 09:59:45 PM »
I would like to know more about Pope Dioscorus, what happened at Ephesus 449, and why it was accused of being illegal, and what happened at Chalcedon.

While I have always believed Christ is one Divine person with two natures, the position of Leo's tome, I think that Pope Leo's pretension to headship over the universal Church laid the foundation for the Vatican I dogmas. So I am eager to read a good defense of Pope Dioscorus.

If anyone could point me to any good posts from years ago, or re-hash it for me here, I would appreciate it.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 10:00:29 PM by gueranger »

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,496
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Pope Dioscorus
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2014, 10:24:42 PM »
Sounds like you might enjoy the private forum.  :P

Offline gueranger

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 332
  • Lord Jesus, have mercy on me. BVM, pray for me.
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
Re: Pope Dioscorus
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2014, 10:26:32 PM »
Sounds like you might enjoy the private forum.  :P

Oh, gotch'ya. Could you move this to the private forum?

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,496
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Pope Dioscorus
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2014, 10:30:33 PM »
No, that's not what I meant.  I haven't studied whether more information can be found in the public forum or the private forum, but my hunch is that you would be able to search the threads there and find at least some of what you're looking for. 

Offline gueranger

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 332
  • Lord Jesus, have mercy on me. BVM, pray for me.
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
Re: Pope Dioscorus
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2014, 10:31:46 PM »
No, that's not what I meant.  I haven't studied whether more information can be found in the public forum or the private forum, but my hunch is that you would be able to search the threads there and find at least some of what you're looking for.  

Ah, ok. Thanks.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 10:32:22 PM by gueranger »

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Pope Dioscorus
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2014, 10:48:54 PM »
I think the problem with a question like this is that while I can give you a good defense, I'm not sure the defense will prevent others from defending against the defense, leading this topic to become a topic for the private forum.

An OO position is an interpretation of the events that happened.  What happened is that St. Dioscorus perceived a Nestorian position and an attack on Cyrillian terminological tradition via Eutyches.  It's considered then, that Ephesus 449 was a judgment of whether Eutyches was justly condemned, and his terminology was interpreted in an Orthodox manner based on St. Cyril's theological tradition, while the terminology used by the accusers were interpreted in a Nestorian manner, and thus lead to the condemnation of those "associated with Nestorianism".  Whether some of these people were in fact associated with Nestorianism is the center of debate, and whether this was done justly or not is also the center of debate.  Among those condemned were Theodoret of Cyrrus and Ibas of Mari, and their source of patristic tradition in the persons of Theodore of Mopsuestia and Diodore of Tarsus, which would cause a contentious debate for the next century or so.

One can say, according to the OO view, that St. Dioscorus stood in a way "contra mundum" against the council of those who sought to put him to condemnation.  He defended his reasons for Ephesus 449, but those reasons held no sway over the imperial guards and some of the bishops.  Fr. John Romanides was of the opinion that if St. Dioscorus did not ignore the triple summons, he would have came out on top, whereas, we as OO are of the general opinion that St. Dioscorus decided not to waste his breathe to a council that wanted to condemn him for any reason anyway (the first summons was made while he was under house arrest as well!).

In the end, the story went that he was exiled to Gangra, was beaten with knocked out teeth and hair plucked off.  A Coptic venerated saint, St. Macarius, bishop of Tkow, was known as a disciple of St. Dioscorus, who took the teeth and hair to the people of Egypt with a message written, "this is the price of faith."  St. Macarius himself was martyred after being beaten when proclaiming the "one nature" to the imperial guards.  His body is venerated alongside with Sts. Macarius the Great and Macarius of Alexandria in the Monastery of Abu Maqar.  So when the Coptic Church in the liturgy commemorates the "three saints Abba Macarii" (plural for Macarius), it's those 3, 2 of which lived contemporarily, but 1 about a century later.

According to Hagiography, St. Dioscorus "converted" the bishop of Gangra into the faith, or as the Synexarium puts it, converted him from Nestorianism.

We have two epistles which we wrote while in exile that proved to us, contrary to later myth by opponents, that he did in fact believe in the integrity and reality of Christ's humanity, putting him on par with the theological tradition of St. Cyril.  I'll try to find the epistles later, unless someone else can do it for me  8)
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Pope Dioscorus
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2014, 10:55:40 PM »
Forgot to mention that the Tome of Leo was practically ignored in the council, which seemed to have "robbed" Pope Leo of the honor he sought there, along with his legates to preside instead of St. Dioscorus.  Of course, opponents will say it's a Robber council because it's a council of thieves who wanted to twist the faith and obtain power.  We as OOs maintain that St. Dioscorus seemed to have tried to have the Tome read, but the other bishops presiding with St. Dioscorus were putting it off.  Others speculate that St. Dioscorus may have wanted to prevent a condemnation of the Pope of Rome as "Nestorian", as that would be difficult to maintain in the council itself while already condemning not a few bishops, including the bishop of Constantinople, which is no small bishopric (I guess sort of like, "I'll deal with Rome later" type of attitude).

OO theologians will maintain that the Tome was Nestorian, even if unintentional because of how the natures were subjects of actions, as if two side-by-side entities were performing together the work of salvation, rather than the one person of Christ.  Of course, supporters of the Tome will maintain that this is a misinterpretation, whether intentional or unintentional.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 10:57:58 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline gueranger

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 332
  • Lord Jesus, have mercy on me. BVM, pray for me.
  • Faith: Roman Catholic

Offline Salpy

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,461
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: Pope Dioscorus
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 10:34:16 PM »
A tangent was split off and put in the private forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,56226.new.html#top

If anyone wants admission into the private forum, they should pm Fr. George and ask to be admitted.

Offline Severian

  • My posts on this site don't necessarily reflect my current position on any given subject.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,642
  • Pat. St. Severus, pray for my family & friends
    • St. Severus of Antioch's Writings
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox Christian
Re: Pope Dioscorus
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 10:42:52 PM »
--Sub--
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice.