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Author Topic: Alan Keyes Rejects Gay Daughter  (Read 4627 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 02, 2005, 01:51:44 PM »

Alan Keyes seems to be a big hero of most religious folks (won't get into politics here).  The recent announcement by his daughter that she's gay is getting a lot of attention.  According to this article, she's been thrown out of the house by her parents. 

We all agree here that homosexual behavior is immoral but how should we treat our family members and friends who are practicing homosexuals?  Should we reject them in hopes that it will make them aware of their sinfulness or should we accept them and run the risk of giving the wrong message?  It's a difficult issue, I think.  The Bible is full of people admonishing sinners.  We've been told that we have a responsibility to our brothers and sisters in Christ to correct them.  But often the correction, IMHO, is prideful and hurtful to the 'correctee.' 

I personally have been accepting of my gay relatives but sometimes I think I'm just avoiding the issue.  I don't want a confrontation with my more liberal relatives. 

I did lose a friendship over this issue.  A good friend of mine came out about 6 years ago.  I accepted him and tried to be a good friend to him.  He was very conflicted because he had been raised a Southern Baptist and still had a lot of faith.  His family was very upset about his orientation and he asked me to talk to his mother, as a Christian and explain to her that it wasn't so terrible.  I couldn't do it.  I told him that he was my friend and I didn't judge him but I couldn't lie to his mother and tell her that I didn't think there was anything wrong with his lifestyle.  He ended our friendship over my refusal to talk to his mother.  It was painful but I think I made the right decision.  I could be his friend but I couldn't lie and say there was nothing wrong with homosexual behavior.  It's been six years and we haven't spoken since then. 

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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2005, 02:25:15 PM »

There has been a lot of speculation and false reporting on the whole Keyes family situation. I saw the young Ms. Keyes on CNN, on what was apparently her first national television interview, and the news report that preceded it presented different facts than the linked article above. According to the report I witnessed, Maya Keyes worked for a political organization involved with her father's candidacy in Illinois, and that organization funded an apartment for her in the Chicago area. Once the facts concerning her sexuality were made public (again, according to CNN), both Maya and Alan Keyes mutually agreed that she should leave the organization. Thus, they stopped funding her apartment.

You do raise a pertinent and troubling question: What is the best way to witness to our homosexual friends and relatives? Should we voice our opposition to their choices, or should we be silent? One of my problems in life is not speaking up when I should, so I don't know that I'm qualified to venture an answer. I do have personal experience with this, however.

My best friend (now of nearly twenty years) "came out" to me when we were around thirteen years of age. I was not a Christian at that time and viewed morality very much in secular terms, but it still confused me severely. I cared for him, naturally, so I accepted him and this part of his life. The confusion over his sexuality, as time progressed, became confusion over my own, and I began to question whether or not I was "fully" heterosexual. This confusion lasted throughout several years of my teenage and adolescent life, before I sought help for other psychological problems. Once those were cleared up, I felt much more secure in my own sexual identity and so forth. Once I became an Orthodox Christian (which was several years after all of this), I came to an unyielding moral opposition to homosexuality in accordance with Church teaching.

He and I remain friends, though we're not as close as we once were. He knows my mind on this subject, and I know his. So we simply avoid the topic when we're together.


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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2005, 08:42:07 AM »

See also this recent thread for more discussion on Orthodox' dealings w/ apostates.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,5313.0.html

Given what has been said here, I am not sure that many here would disagree even w/ "throwing the daughter out of the house."
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2005, 04:51:48 PM »

Gay is gay. Tolerance is tolerance.

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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2005, 09:47:49 AM »

My sister is gay, I love her for who she is. That is all. Truthfully, I think until you have a close family member who is gay it's difficult to understand how to deal with it.  Once upon a time I supported "gay marriage". I no longer do. I struggle with that...

 My sister is a person with feelings and thoughts with many things to contribute to this world. I still think there are many in the conservative christian world who have a very ignorant and frankly a dangerous view of gays and lesbians. On the other hand, many gay and lesbian "activists"  take a very dim and ignorant view of conservative christians. BOTH sides are very wrong about one another.

  I don't feel the need to beat her over the head with a bible and cure her. I also have friends and family who are spouse abusers, drug addicts, alcholhalics, gluttons and promiscious (albeit hetro) plus many more sins. I have my own sins to be concerned about.
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2005, 10:46:09 AM »

PhosZoe,

You make some very good points, and I have said similar things in other times and places.  Yes, "homosexual acts" are sins, and the "inclination" toward them (whatever the source - I'm inclined to think there are many, and they range from the influence of fallen biology, to childhood-adolecent psychological trauma, through to personal sin and amorality creating a "vice") is inherently disordered - but these are not the only (or most common for that matter) sexual sins in our society, and certainly not the only sins out there.

Yes, it is bad that governments around the world want to sanction "gay marriage"; but isn't it even worse that such governments are also functionally/formally atheistic, do not honour God, and are at best indifferent to the Holy Gospel?  Yes, it's a horrible situation when someone is (for whatever reason) oriented towards inherently unnatural sexual activities - yet, isn't the practical atheism of most westerners even more horrid than this?  To put it into perspective, perhaps, let me pose a hypothetical situation - who is necessarily more "worse off", the weak person of a "homosexualist" inclination who regularly falls to temptation but yet has God on his/her mind, or the secularized person who while "straight" so to speak, generally gives God or the "meaning of life" little thought, and tends to think little of "Churchy supersticion" or things like this.

Indeed, there is something rather "queer" about many of the "sexual practices" which our culture (including it's supposedly Christian members) winks at (or even clearly approves of) as being within "the norm" or the "straight and narrow" (perhaps only because the two of them are married.)  I don't see too much difference between the "sodomy" of married (and many dating) couples, and that between two men or two women.  There's a lot of "disordered sex" out there, and it's not mostly "homos" who are having it.

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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2005, 11:26:08 AM »


Indeed, there is something rather "queer" about many of the "sexual practices" which our culture (including it's supposedly Christian members) winks at (or even clearly approves of) as being within "the norm" or the "straight and narrow" (perhaps only because the two of them are married.) I don't see too much difference between the "sodomy" of married (and many dating) couples, and that between two men or two women. There's a lot of "disordered sex" out there, and it's not mostly "homos" who are having it.

Interesting.  I think there's something 'odd' about sexuality in our society.  The hysteria over the clergy sex abuse scandals and the preceding hysteria over daycare sex abuse scandals, etc. illustrate a very 'weird' understanding of sex in this society.  It's  like we're embraced 'hedonism' but want to draw some line in the sand with regards to sexuality of children and pre-adolescents.  I wonder if that is caued by a subconscious uncomfortableness with the hedonism? 

This reminds me of interesting debate taking place on the Indiana List between Bishop Tikhon of the OCA and Pokrov, a group which publicizes clergy sexual abuse in Orthodoxy.  It's a very bitter debate but I think underlying the debate is the conflict between the secular understanding of sexual abuse and the Church's understanding of forgiveness and healing through the Church.  The secular understanding seems to be that sexual abuse of children is the worst thing that can ever happen and can never be forgiven.  The Church's understanding is that there is no "worst sin" and that everything can be forgiven and that we are called to forgive. 

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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2005, 03:07:47 PM »

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not to repent. It does not have to be the sin of homosexuality, but it can refer to any other sin that became a habit or a regular practice.

Away from Alan Keyes decision,I believe homosexuals in church are treated according to their spiritual struggle against this sin. If they are repenting and falling in a repeated cycle, they are struggling, offering what they can in this spiritual fight and waiting for the victory from God.

But those who try to deny it is a sin, with any arguments, and leading a homosexual life openly and being "proud" about it, not repenting and maybe advocating the sin, are excommunicated like the sinner of Corinth. Even then, the church has an obligation to look out for them when they are excommunicated.So, somebody who comes out falls under this category. 
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2005, 10:14:27 AM »

Jennifer,

Quote
Interesting. I think there's something 'odd' about sexuality in our society. The hysteria over the clergy sex abuse scandals and the preceding hysteria over daycare sex abuse scandals, etc. illustrate a very 'weird' understanding of sex in this society. It's like we're embraced 'hedonism' but want to draw some line in the sand with regards to sexuality of children and pre-adolescents. I wonder if that is caued by a subconscious uncomfortableness with the hedonism?

Great point, and this is something I've observed as well. Much of what is understood in our day as being "immoral" is incredibly arbitrary - really it's just a mass of ever receeding taboos, whose main argument tends to be (at best) something of the lines of "it's bad because it's odd" or "it's not nice". Of course because of original sin* and the arbitrariness I mentioned, these "standards" for determining what is right and wrong is useless, and always open to revision. With time, one can begin to argue (and accept) that it is actually "nicer" to simply kill children than let them be born to unloving parents or into poverty, and that it's "not nice" to do and say things which in an objective sense are in fact genuinely charitable (ex. rebuking falsehood - the idea that all forms of intolerance are "not nice", hence "immoral").

This is particularly true with the subject of human sexuality, and why I foresee that in some places (eventually) pedophilia will probably come to be viewed in more or less favorable terms (in the way that homosexual activities are in much of the western world). Does that sound extreme? I don't think so, and I'd be interested to get back in touch with anyone who says otherwise in another thirty years if things keep up as they currently are, to watch them eat crow.

* Yes, I said original sin, and not "ancestral sin". Many sound Orthodox sources (both popular and academic) use this phrase, so I see no need to try and "be different" from those nasty westerners for it's own sake by using a term they may not even understand. I'm also in the "horrifying" habit of still calling Holy Pascha, "Easter"... Shocked
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2012, 11:40:44 PM »

But often the correction, IMHO, is prideful and hurtful to the 'correctee.' 

Then it is not correction I am afraid. It is revenge. Would jesus want that? Would Jesus want you to usurp his place and judge on his behalf? Wouldn't he rather you leave it up to him to decide, since you only see behaviour, while he also see the heart, and takes that into account as well?





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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2012, 11:51:48 PM »

At one point in my life (late teens) I thought Alan Keyes was awesome.

How I lament those days...
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2012, 12:57:23 AM »

You shouldn't reject a gay child--they cannot help it. However, I dunno how comfortable I'd feel with them bringing their gay partners into my house or having sex together while in my house. The former I guess is okay, but the second being done in my house might be a no-no. I just wouldn't be able to help but feel like I am making it possible for them to sin via gay sex by letting them do it in my house. But then again to be fair, I wouldn't feel comfortable with my heterosexual child fornicating with someone in my house either.
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2012, 01:15:39 AM »

Homosexuality is clearly written about in the Torah.  These are the direct words of God.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Gay men were blinded by the angels as well.
Also Sodom was destroyed by God - not just punished - DESTROYED.

God doesn't create gay people.  People struggle in sin and buy into the propaganda that they were born a certain way as groups & tolerance mends together.  Also many homosexuals claim sexual abuse caused their homosexuality.   I do not believe that God would create something so "wrong" that he calls it an abomination.

I would not throw my children out of the house for many many things.  But if they are practicing this ever so "accepted" lifestyle of homosexuality, an abomination to our Lord, the child would not be welcome.
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2012, 01:22:27 AM »

Homosexuality is clearly written about in the Torah.  These are the direct words of God.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Gay men were blinded by the angels as well.
Also Sodom was destroyed by God - not just punished - DESTROYED.

God doesn't create gay people.  People struggle in sin and buy into the propaganda that they were born a certain way as groups & tolerance mends together.  Also many homosexuals claim sexual abuse caused their homosexuality.   I do not believe that God would create something so "wrong" that he calls it an abomination.

I would not throw my children out of the house for many many things.  But if they are practicing this ever so "accepted" lifestyle of homosexuality, an abomination to our Lord, the child would not be welcome.

Is that what the Hutterites do to homosexuals?  You would put your child out of the commune?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 01:29:06 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2012, 01:38:56 AM »

God doesn't create gay people.  People struggle in sin and buy into the propaganda that they were born a certain way as groups & tolerance mends together.  Also many homosexuals claim sexual abuse caused their homosexuality.   I do not believe that God would create something so "wrong" that he calls it an abomination.

People may not necessarily have been "born" that way--as many pro-activists claim--human sexuality is a very confusing topic that is determined by both biological prenatal and environmental factors. But either way, no one really "chooses" to be gay in the sense that they choose to have gay urges. You don't choose what you are and are not sexually attracted to.

HOWEVER, what they can choose is whether or not to indulge in their desires.

Quote
But if they are practicing this ever so "accepted" lifestyle of homosexuality, an abomination to our Lord, the child would not be welcome.

No offense, but I'd probably throw the Lord out before I threw my child out, I'd prefer to be a good parent and take whatever punishment comes upon me by God later.
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2012, 03:23:20 AM »

Homosexuality is clearly written about in the Torah.  These are the direct words of God.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Gay men were blinded by the angels as well.
Also Sodom was destroyed by God - not just punished - DESTROYED.

God doesn't create gay people.  People struggle in sin and buy into the propaganda that they were born a certain way as groups & tolerance mends together.  Also many homosexuals claim sexual abuse caused their homosexuality.   I do not believe that God would create something so "wrong" that he calls it an abomination.

I would not throw my children out of the house for many many things.  But if they are practicing this ever so "accepted" lifestyle of homosexuality, an abomination to our Lord, the child would not be welcome.

Is that what the Hutterites do to homosexuals?  You would put your child out of the commune?

Yes, they would be excommunicated and made to leave.

God by example eradicated the abomination.   I think telling somebody to leave (even your own child) is appropriate.

*note - What age of "child" are we talking about? I'm referencing a "child" as "my child" who would be an adult capable of being excommunicated.  The Hutterites do not baptize infants thus allowing a person to choose if they want to accept the teachings of the church & Christianity.  Once baptized, if the young adult turns out to want to be gay (post baptism) then they would most likely be excommunicated, and thus no longer part of the commune.
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2012, 03:31:18 AM »

God doesn't create gay people.  People struggle in sin and buy into the propaganda that they were born a certain way as groups & tolerance mends together.  Also many homosexuals claim sexual abuse caused their homosexuality.   I do not believe that God would create something so "wrong" that he calls it an abomination.

People may not necessarily have been "born" that way--as many pro-activists claim--human sexuality is a very confusing topic that is determined by both biological prenatal and environmental factors. But either way, no one really "chooses" to be gay in the sense that they choose to have gay urges. You don't choose what you are and are not sexually attracted to.

HOWEVER, what they can choose is whether or not to indulge in their desires.

Quote
But if they are practicing this ever so "accepted" lifestyle of homosexuality, an abomination to our Lord, the child would not be welcome.

No offense, but I'd probably throw the Lord out before I threw my child out, I'd prefer to be a good parent and take whatever punishment comes upon me by God later.

Not me.  I would never want retribution or punishment by God.

A good parent does not embrace and support a person living a sin that an abomination to the lord.  A good parent would give the child a choice (to stop their sin of homosexuality), and if the child/young adult does not accept their authority, then they are obviously mature enough to find their own way by their own means.

Our heavenly father wiped out cities over homosexuality. 

Despite what many of you have seen on the subject of homosexuality, toleration of sin is never justified.  There is much propaganda in the world today promoting homosexuality and pushing "tolerance".  It is an ABOMINATION to our God. 
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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2012, 03:43:36 AM »


Gay men were blinded by the angels as well.
Also Sodom was destroyed by God - not just punished - DESTROYED.


How many times must you murder the prophets?
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2012, 03:51:18 AM »

God doesn't create gay people.  People struggle in sin and buy into the propaganda that they were born a certain way as groups & tolerance mends together.  Also many homosexuals claim sexual abuse caused their homosexuality.   I do not believe that God would create something so "wrong" that he calls it an abomination.

People may not necessarily have been "born" that way--as many pro-activists claim--human sexuality is a very confusing topic that is determined by both biological prenatal and environmental factors. But either way, no one really "chooses" to be gay in the sense that they choose to have gay urges. You don't choose what you are and are not sexually attracted to.

HOWEVER, what they can choose is whether or not to indulge in their desires.

Quote
But if they are practicing this ever so "accepted" lifestyle of homosexuality, an abomination to our Lord, the child would not be welcome.

No offense, but I'd probably throw the Lord out before I threw my child out, I'd prefer to be a good parent and take whatever punishment comes upon me by God later.

Not me.  I would never want retribution or punishment by God.

A good parent does not embrace and support a person living a sin that an abomination to the lord.  A good parent would give the child a choice (to stop their sin of homosexuality), and if the child/young adult does not accept their authority, then they are obviously mature enough to find their own way by their own means.

Our heavenly father wiped out cities over homosexuality. 

Despite what many of you have seen on the subject of homosexuality, toleration of sin is never justified.  There is much propaganda in the world today promoting homosexuality and pushing "tolerance".  It is an ABOMINATION to our God. 

Just so we are on the same page here, by being homosexual, do you mean by having homosexual urges or by having homosexual sexual relations? Would you lockout your kid if he had the former but did not indulge in the latter? Also, how would you react if your kids were fornicating heterosexually?
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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2012, 08:28:53 AM »

Homosexuality is clearly written about in the Torah.  These are the direct words of God.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Gay men were blinded by the angels as well.
Also Sodom was destroyed by God - not just punished - DESTROYED.

God doesn't create gay people.  People struggle in sin and buy into the propaganda that they were born a certain way as groups & tolerance mends together.  Also many homosexuals claim sexual abuse caused their homosexuality.   I do not believe that God would create something so "wrong" that he calls it an abomination.

I would not throw my children out of the house for many many things.  But if they are practicing this ever so "accepted" lifestyle of homosexuality, an abomination to our Lord, the child would not be welcome.


And it's people like you that contribute to the disproportionate amount of homeless gay youths who often end up hooked on drugs, or worse, committing suicide.

Pretty pathetic, frankly, when one's fear of hell-fire trumps loving and caring for one's own offspring. Yikes.
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« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2012, 08:48:54 AM »

At one point in my life (late teens) I thought Alan Keyes was awesome.

How I lament those days...

And seven years later there does not seem to be any news re this on the net. Do you even know whether they have resolved their issues or not?
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« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2012, 08:50:39 AM »

The Bible clearly defines homossexuality as worse than fornication. It is so because it is one step further into a mistaken perception of reality than fornication (I use "perception" here meaning more than just information about the world, but as existencial experience of it).

The fornicator cannot see - or has fought against it - that since each soul is unique, there is a unique match for each (even if the unique match is a celibate life, even for straights), and that there is a real somehow physical connection with every person we have sex with - you become one flesh. Because this is somehow metaphysical, it is indeed difficult for most to even think there may be things like these.

In homossexuality, one goes against a very physical and visible reality, and in their own bodies. It requires a more conscious decision to deny reality to indulge in it.

The way I deal with this is to remember that although I don't have this particular temptation, I do have others that are not less impulsive or physical, like gluttony. Do I eat things that I know are unhealthy, thus, somehow accepting it may be a form of slow suicide which I accept at that moment only to indulge in them? Sometimes yes, and suicide is a far worse sin than homossexuality. I know it is *very* difficult in our time and age, to get rid of all the subconcious cultural garbage that says "if you don't indulge in your passions you're not truly living. To be alive is to pursue what makes you happy and feel good". I know that, I feel that in my own temptations, so I am able to have empathy to my friends who happened to be victims of that particular kind of sin.

The problem is, in my view, that no one pretends that glutony is not a sin. Or lust. Or fornication. Even if you fall and do it, you are "awake" enough in understanding that you are sinning, and that's good, because you can repent. Like a monk once said, "we fall, and get up, we fall and we get up, that's the Christian life". With homossexuality people are being told there is nothing wrong in it, that repenting would be some kind of self-aggression, which it obviously is not. They're mislead to fall and stay there. With friends or colleagues who have clearly made a decision to live up their impulses, I must respect their adult decision. But if they ever ask me what I think, or what the Church teaches about that, I try to explain as softly as possible, but also in truth. But only if they ask.
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« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2012, 03:57:57 PM »

The Bible clearly defines homossexuality as worse than fornication. It is so because it is one step further into a mistaken perception of reality than fornication (I use "perception" here meaning more than just information about the world, but as existencial experience of it).

The fornicator cannot see - or has fought against it - that since each soul is unique, there is a unique match for each (even if the unique match is a celibate life, even for straights), and that there is a real somehow physical connection with every person we have sex with - you become one flesh. Because this is somehow metaphysical, it is indeed difficult for most to even think there may be things like these.

In homossexuality, one goes against a very physical and visible reality, and in their own bodies. It requires a more conscious decision to deny reality to indulge in it.

The way I deal with this is to remember that although I don't have this particular temptation, I do have others that are not less impulsive or physical, like gluttony. Do I eat things that I know are unhealthy, thus, somehow accepting it may be a form of slow suicide which I accept at that moment only to indulge in them? Sometimes yes, and suicide is a far worse sin than homossexuality. I know it is *very* difficult in our time and age, to get rid of all the subconcious cultural garbage that says "if you don't indulge in your passions you're not truly living. To be alive is to pursue what makes you happy and feel good". I know that, I feel that in my own temptations, so I am able to have empathy to my friends who happened to be victims of that particular kind of sin.

The problem is, in my view, that no one pretends that glutony is not a sin. Or lust. Or fornication. Even if you fall and do it, you are "awake" enough in understanding that you are sinning, and that's good, because you can repent. Like a monk once said, "we fall, and get up, we fall and we get up, that's the Christian life". With homossexuality people are being told there is nothing wrong in it, that repenting would be some kind of self-aggression, which it obviously is not. They're mislead to fall and stay there. With friends or colleagues who have clearly made a decision to live up their impulses, I must respect their adult decision. But if they ever ask me what I think, or what the Church teaches about that, I try to explain as softly as possible, but also in truth. But only if they ask.

Did you just say that no one pretends gluttony is a not a sin?  Either you've no clue what you're talking about, or Brazil is very, very, very different from America.
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2012, 04:10:31 PM »

The Bible clearly defines homossexuality as worse than fornication. It is so because it is one step further into a mistaken perception of reality than fornication (I use "perception" here meaning more than just information about the world, but as existencial experience of it).

The fornicator cannot see - or has fought against it - that since each soul is unique, there is a unique match for each (even if the unique match is a celibate life, even for straights), and that there is a real somehow physical connection with every person we have sex with - you become one flesh. Because this is somehow metaphysical, it is indeed difficult for most to even think there may be things like these.

In homossexuality, one goes against a very physical and visible reality, and in their own bodies. It requires a more conscious decision to deny reality to indulge in it.

The way I deal with this is to remember that although I don't have this particular temptation, I do have others that are not less impulsive or physical, like gluttony. Do I eat things that I know are unhealthy, thus, somehow accepting it may be a form of slow suicide which I accept at that moment only to indulge in them? Sometimes yes, and suicide is a far worse sin than homossexuality. I know it is *very* difficult in our time and age, to get rid of all the subconcious cultural garbage that says "if you don't indulge in your passions you're not truly living. To be alive is to pursue what makes you happy and feel good". I know that, I feel that in my own temptations, so I am able to have empathy to my friends who happened to be victims of that particular kind of sin.

The problem is, in my view, that no one pretends that glutony is not a sin. Or lust. Or fornication. Even if you fall and do it, you are "awake" enough in understanding that you are sinning, and that's good, because you can repent. Like a monk once said, "we fall, and get up, we fall and we get up, that's the Christian life". With homossexuality people are being told there is nothing wrong in it, that repenting would be some kind of self-aggression, which it obviously is not. They're mislead to fall and stay there. With friends or colleagues who have clearly made a decision to live up their impulses, I must respect their adult decision. But if they ever ask me what I think, or what the Church teaches about that, I try to explain as softly as possible, but also in truth. But only if they ask.

Did you just say that no one pretends gluttony is a not a sin?  Either you've no clue what you're talking about, or Brazil is very, very, very different from America.

Agreed.  What passes for "normal" diet in most modern, industrialized nations would make the Fathers blush.
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2012, 04:19:09 PM »


Gay men were blinded by the angels as well.
Also Sodom was destroyed by God - not just punished - DESTROYED.


The sin of Sodom is clearly mentioned in Ezekiel, and it isn't homosexuality.
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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2012, 04:19:54 PM »


No offense, but I'd probably throw the Lord out before I threw my child out, I'd prefer to be a good parent and take whatever punishment comes upon me by God later.

No offense?

You've just valued your supposed child over your Creator.  No offense?  Really? 

Let me remind you:

Luke 12:
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother;

and one more....

"You shall have no other gods before me."

James, be careful.


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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2012, 07:02:59 PM »

But Liza, have you also read:

“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 'But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 'If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector..."

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 'For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 'If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 'Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

And

"Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, 'Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?' But when Jesus heard this, He said, 'It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 07:03:29 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2012, 09:03:03 PM »

God doesn't create gay people.  People struggle in sin and buy into the propaganda that they were born a certain way as groups & tolerance mends together.  Also many homosexuals claim sexual abuse caused their homosexuality.   I do not believe that God would create something so "wrong" that he calls it an abomination.

People may not necessarily have been "born" that way--as many pro-activists claim--human sexuality is a very confusing topic that is determined by both biological prenatal and environmental factors. But either way, no one really "chooses" to be gay in the sense that they choose to have gay urges. You don't choose what you are and are not sexually attracted to.

HOWEVER, what they can choose is whether or not to indulge in their desires.

Quote
But if they are practicing this ever so "accepted" lifestyle of homosexuality, an abomination to our Lord, the child would not be welcome.

No offense, but I'd probably throw the Lord out before I threw my child out, I'd prefer to be a good parent and take whatever punishment comes upon me by God later.

Not me.  I would never want retribution or punishment by God.

A good parent does not embrace and support a person living a sin that an abomination to the lord.  A good parent would give the child a choice (to stop their sin of homosexuality), and if the child/young adult does not accept their authority, then they are obviously mature enough to find their own way by their own means.

Our heavenly father wiped out cities over homosexuality. 

Despite what many of you have seen on the subject of homosexuality, toleration of sin is never justified.  There is much propaganda in the world today promoting homosexuality and pushing "tolerance".  It is an ABOMINATION to our God. 

Just so we are on the same page here, by being homosexual, do you mean by having homosexual urges or by having homosexual sexual relations? Would you lockout your kid if he had the former but did not indulge in the latter? Also, how would you react if your kids were fornicating heterosexually?

I am speaking of homosexual relations.  I believe we all struggle with sins. For some certain sins affect them more.  I do have many sins that I struggle with as well.   I struggle with anger, pride, and non-contentedness for instance.

However, there are severe sins I do not struggle with.  One would be murder, another homosexuality, and yet another, I do not struggle with drugs.

There are sins that are an abomination to God.  Some may want to be homosexual, others they may feel like murder, and others tempted by drugs.


If my child (late teens/adult) was murdering people, pursing homosexual relationships, and addicted to heavy drugs that are harming the rest of my family I would not allow them to live in my home.

Urges but not acting is a struggle, one which I would not throw out.
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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2012, 09:04:29 PM »

Homosexuality is clearly written about in the Torah.  These are the direct words of God.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Gay men were blinded by the angels as well.
Also Sodom was destroyed by God - not just punished - DESTROYED.

God doesn't create gay people.  People struggle in sin and buy into the propaganda that they were born a certain way as groups & tolerance mends together.  Also many homosexuals claim sexual abuse caused their homosexuality.   I do not believe that God would create something so "wrong" that he calls it an abomination.

I would not throw my children out of the house for many many things.  But if they are practicing this ever so "accepted" lifestyle of homosexuality, an abomination to our Lord, the child would not be welcome.


And it's people like you that contribute to the disproportionate amount of homeless gay youths who often end up hooked on drugs, or worse, committing suicide.

Pretty pathetic, frankly, when one's fear of hell-fire trumps loving and caring for one's own offspring. Yikes.

So explain.... Sodom.
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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2012, 09:07:45 PM »

The Bible clearly defines homossexuality as worse than fornication. It is so because it is one step further into a mistaken perception of reality than fornication (I use "perception" here meaning more than just information about the world, but as existencial experience of it).

The fornicator cannot see - or has fought against it - that since each soul is unique, there is a unique match for each (even if the unique match is a celibate life, even for straights), and that there is a real somehow physical connection with every person we have sex with - you become one flesh. Because this is somehow metaphysical, it is indeed difficult for most to even think there may be things like these.

In homossexuality, one goes against a very physical and visible reality, and in their own bodies. It requires a more conscious decision to deny reality to indulge in it.

The way I deal with this is to remember that although I don't have this particular temptation, I do have others that are not less impulsive or physical, like gluttony. Do I eat things that I know are unhealthy, thus, somehow accepting it may be a form of slow suicide which I accept at that moment only to indulge in them? Sometimes yes, and suicide is a far worse sin than homossexuality. I know it is *very* difficult in our time and age, to get rid of all the subconcious cultural garbage that says "if you don't indulge in your passions you're not truly living. To be alive is to pursue what makes you happy and feel good". I know that, I feel that in my own temptations, so I am able to have empathy to my friends who happened to be victims of that particular kind of sin.

The problem is, in my view, that no one pretends that glutony is not a sin. Or lust. Or fornication. Even if you fall and do it, you are "awake" enough in understanding that you are sinning, and that's good, because you can repent. Like a monk once said, "we fall, and get up, we fall and we get up, that's the Christian life". With homossexuality people are being told there is nothing wrong in it, that repenting would be some kind of self-aggression, which it obviously is not. They're mislead to fall and stay there. With friends or colleagues who have clearly made a decision to live up their impulses, I must respect their adult decision. But if they ever ask me what I think, or what the Church teaches about that, I try to explain as softly as possible, but also in truth. But only if they ask.

Did you just say that no one pretends gluttony is a not a sin?  Either you've no clue what you're talking about, or Brazil is very, very, very different from America.

I think it would be fair to say that gluttony is overlooked more than some sins.

However, I disagree that gluttony is a "slow form of suicide".   The glutton may be doing something unhealthy for their bodies, however, their intent is not to make themselves die. 
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« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2012, 09:09:56 PM »


No offense, but I'd probably throw the Lord out before I threw my child out, I'd prefer to be a good parent and take whatever punishment comes upon me by God later.

No offense?

You've just valued your supposed child over your Creator.  No offense?  Really? 

Let me remind you:

Luke 12:
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother;

and one more....

"You shall have no other gods before me."

James, be careful.




I agree with Liza

God is the absolute first in your life no matter what.   God comes before all things.  God comes before everything you can imagine.  God comes before anything on Earth or in Heaven.
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« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2012, 09:13:00 PM »


Gay men were blinded by the angels as well.
Also Sodom was destroyed by God - not just punished - DESTROYED.


The sin of Sodom is clearly mentioned in Ezekiel, and it isn't homosexuality.


So what you are saying is that in Genesis, the men who came to rape the angel, and refused the daughters, were blinded by the angel.... Were not homosexual?

Also, the term "sodomy" comes from the name of the city.... so this wasn't homosexual?

sorry, can't agree with you.
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« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2012, 10:30:29 PM »

So what you are saying is that in Genesis, the men who came to rape the angel, and refused the daughters, were blinded by the angel.... Were not homosexual?
Maybe, maybe not. Male-on-male Prison rape is often done by heterosexuals.

Also, the term "sodomy" comes from the name of the city.... so this wasn't homosexual?
The term "sodomy" has no inherent place in Christian anthropology.
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« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2012, 11:15:14 PM »

So what you are saying is that in Genesis, the men who came to rape the angel, and refused the daughters, were blinded by the angel.... Were not homosexual?
Maybe, maybe not. Male-on-male Prison rape is often done by heterosexuals.

Also, the term "sodomy" comes from the name of the city.... so this wasn't homosexual?
The term "sodomy" has no inherent place in Christian anthropology.

So let's ignore Jewish commentaries and Jewish understanding about Sodom then.

So there were a bunch of men who wanted to have sex with the angels (who looked like men to them).  They were pounding on Lot's door.  Lot was like "here are my virgin daughters instead".  The men didn't want them, they wanted men.

That is called HOMOSEXUAL.

Prison rape (which I still think they are homosexual for doing it) is when men don't have the option of women.  Clearly the men of Sodom were after the men because they were men.

Also, if we even remotely crack the door on the Jewish understanding of Sodom by reading commentaries and their historical understanding, the men were considered homosexuals.  They also believe that Sodom was destroyed for its homosexuality and immorality.


As for the term "sodomy" or "sodomites", it is where the term came from.  Many Christians do use these terms, and have for centuries.


Look guys....

God called the act of men lying with men an abomination.

Like it or not...  There is no way around this, no matter how much Lady Gaga tells you to accept them.
If you accept the act of men lying with men, then you accept something God has called an abomination.

It's really simple.

If you reject what is an abomination to God, then you reject homosexuality (men lying with men (or women)).

If one of my children was 17, and refused my correction, and was going out with "boyfriends" all the time, bringing them home, and trying to convince me their behavior is "okay", then they are OUT.  When they refuse my correction under my roof, they are independent enough to provide for themselves.
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« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2012, 11:19:25 PM »

At one point in my life (late teens) I thought Alan Keyes was awesome.

How I lament those days...

Who is Alan Keyes? [political speculation redacted]
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« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2012, 11:19:57 PM »

We <3 homos.

An older thread bumped and here we go!
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« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2012, 11:23:47 PM »

I would never throw out my child.
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« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2012, 11:25:26 PM »

But Liza, have you also read:

“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 'But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 'If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector..."

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 'For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 'If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 'Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

And

"Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, 'Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?' But when Jesus heard this, He said, 'It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

But, James wasn't mentioning this. He was mentioning rejecting Christ, choosing something else over him. This is not Christian.

Acts of mercy are not acts of enabling for self destruction. If an alcoholic friend is suffering for a drink, it would not be an act of mercy for me to provide him with one so that his suffering would cease temporarily. The real act of mercy is to offer support, love, and the truth. If the person will not accept these, then what can be done? If the person's situation becomes dangerous not just for himself but for others, then one must make a hard decision.

I don't know the specifics of the situation mentioned in the OP and, frankly, neither does anyone else here. It would be hypocritical of us to judge, we who rail against judgmentalism. The rest is hypothetical or based on our own limited experience. As Christians, we do what we can to remain faithful to our calling, which is to bring the love of Christ to all. Those who have very difficult temptations need from us love, prayer, and humility. They also need the truth and support. The world has its own agenda with them, and it ends in their self-destruction. The Church offers life through struggle to them and to us all. It is not easy, but it is the only way that leads to freedom and life. Between the way of the world and the way of the Church there can be no compromise. One is the way of self-indulgence, the other is the way of self-denial; one is the way of betrayal for gain, the other is the way of the Cross. We choose the Cross because we know it leads to resurrection and salvation.
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« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2012, 11:25:26 PM »

So there were a bunch of men who wanted to have sex with the angels (who looked like men to them).  They were pounding on Lot's door.  Lot was like "here are my virgin daughters instead".  The men didn't want them, they wanted men.

So offering your extra virgin daughters to be raped is a virtue?

If you have a daughter, would you offer her to a rapist to keep him from having sex with a man?
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« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2012, 11:27:00 PM »

When they refuse my correction under my roof, they are independent enough to provide for themselves.

Three year olds have been known to do this.

Do you throw them out as well?
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« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2012, 11:28:50 PM »

As for the term "sodomy" or "sodomites", it is where the term came from.  Many Christians do use these terms, and have for centuries.

This is Isa bait and you don't want to be on the receiving end of this one, so to speak.
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NicholasMyra
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When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2012, 11:32:31 PM »

So let's ignore Jewish commentaries and Jewish understanding about Sodom then.
As James said earlier in the thread, why do you slay the prophets?

So there were a bunch of men who wanted to have sex with the angels (who looked like men to them).  They were pounding on Lot's door.  Lot was like "here are my virgin daughters instead".  The men didn't want them, they wanted men.
Did you ever stop to ask why they suddenly wanted to have sex with those particular men?

They were strangers. Foreigners. Those of Sodom didn't just say, "the Sodom lottery has selected so-and-so and so-and-so for gay gang rape tonight!" Injustice to strangers and travelers is a major theme throughout the Old Testament. That, not homosexual disposition, was their sin.

This is also one of the major scandals of Genesis: Just as Abraham was made to sacrifice his son, Lot sacrificed his virgin daughters---members of his family tribe--- for the sake of strangers, on account of their holiness. This is an anti-tribalism account, more scandalous to ANE peoples for its transcending of tribal ties than for its unmercifulness to the virgins or Abraham's son.

That is called HOMOSEXUAL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR2UXmTGK4M

Also, if we even remotely crack the door on the Jewish understanding of Sodom by reading commentaries and their historical understanding
Why would I read sectarian Rabbinic commentaries when the Prophets speak clearly?

As for the term "sodomy" or "sodomites", it is where the term came from.  Many Christians do use these terms, and have for centuries.
Many Christians thought that sperm contained a miniature human that was grown in the soil-like womb of women.

So?

When they refuse my correction under my roof, they are independent enough to provide for themselves.
The Bogomil/Cathar roots of Anabaptism always circle back around, now and again.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 11:43:08 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
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Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,973


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2012, 11:35:55 PM »

But, James wasn't mentioning this. He was mentioning rejecting Christ, choosing something else over him.
But he would not be rejecting Christ, but rather a false antichrist, who turns the stranger from his right and does not fear the Lord.

Acts of mercy are not acts of enabling for self destruction. If an alcoholic friend is suffering for a drink, it would not be an act of mercy for me to provide him with one so that his suffering would cease temporarily.
I don't think anyone recommended that YiM should supply his hypothetical gay son with gay prostitutes.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 11:39:47 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2012, 11:45:23 PM »

So there were a bunch of men who wanted to have sex with the angels (who looked like men to them).  They were pounding on Lot's door.  Lot was like "here are my virgin daughters instead".  The men didn't want them, they wanted men.

So offering your extra virgin daughters to be raped is a virtue?

If you have a daughter, would you offer her to a rapist to keep him from having sex with a man?

Hey brother, take it up with Lot.  I didn't do this.
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yeshuaisiam
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Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
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A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2012, 11:46:09 PM »

When they refuse my correction under my roof, they are independent enough to provide for themselves.

Three year olds have been known to do this.

Do you throw them out as well?

That's trollish.  I've already stated late teens early adult.  17 I think was the age I gave.  A 3 year old, I give them a spanking.
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