Author Topic: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed  (Read 4910 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #90 on: December 17, 2013, 03:00:00 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?
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Offline RehamG

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2013, 03:11:42 PM »
When discussing Allah, keep in mind that perception is reality. You may see Allah and those attributes one way which is your reality, but we on here can and probably do perceive things differently. Hence why many often do pick apart Allah and things of an Islamic nature because they aren't Muslim, just like many Muslims do the same with Christ and Christianity as an example.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 03:13:32 PM by RehamG »
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Offline Math lover

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2013, 04:32:39 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

The Salafis are having a bad influence on you...
Why can't we open topic about God and discuss what our religion teaches about Him?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 04:33:24 PM by Math lover »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2013, 04:53:18 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.


naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

The Salafis are having a bad influence on you...
Why can't we open topic about God and discuss what our religion teaches about Him?

Really, I agree with poppy if for all the wrong reasons, most people are just simply ill equipped and prepared to say anything of interest on the subject of theology. It's usually just bad apologetics taken from better sources of it.

If you have to suffer listening to bad apologetics, you might as well go to the source. It's usually a slight less tedious.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Maria

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2013, 04:55:27 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2013, 05:02:53 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Maria

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #96 on: December 17, 2013, 05:07:56 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.

Obviously, Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three Gods, but only one Godhead. This belief in the Holy Trinity is a Holy Mystery revealed by the Godhead. We see evidence of the gradual teaching of the Holy Trinity in Genesis, when it is written, let us create man in our own image. The plural "us" and "we" indicate that the Godhead is composed of three Divine Persons, yet the Godhead is One God.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2013, 05:08:53 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

No, Islam condemns and prohibits that.

Yet in pre-Islamic times Allah was the supreme deity of Mecca and Arabs considered him the father of all deities, particularly of the goddess named Allat.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 05:10:11 PM by Theophilos78 »
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2013, 05:09:51 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

No, Islam condemns and prohibits that.

Truly, this saddens me.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2013, 05:11:27 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.

Obviously, Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three Gods, but only one Godhead. This belief in the Holy Trinity is a Holy Mystery revealed by the Godhead. We see evidence of the gradual teaching of the Holy Trinity in Genesis, when it is written, let us create man in our own image. The plural "us" and "we" indicate that the Godhead is composed of three Divine Persons, yet the Godhead is One God.

So I am not sure what you doing here, can you explain to me why you refer to God as Father? Cause what you wrote isn't the reason why you are able to.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #100 on: December 17, 2013, 05:13:01 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

No, Islam condemns and prohibits that.

Truly, this saddens me.

Why? According to your own faith they oughtn't refer to God as Father. And it's not condemned or prohibited. My answer is more honest.

I know of at least 20 Muslims who on a regular basis say the Lord's prayer. Their teachers are fine with it.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #101 on: December 17, 2013, 05:15:19 PM »

I know of at least 20 Muslims who on a regular basis say the Lord's prayer. Their teachers are fine with it.

I know at least 150 Muslims who condemn and prohibit it. So what is your point?  ::)
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #102 on: December 17, 2013, 05:16:30 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.

Obviously, Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three Gods, but only one Godhead. This belief in the Holy Trinity is a Holy Mystery revealed by the Godhead. We see evidence of the gradual teaching of the Holy Trinity in Genesis, when it is written, let us create man in our own image. The plural "us" and "we" indicate that the Godhead is composed of three Divine Persons, yet the Godhead is One God.

So I am not sure what you doing here, can you explain to me why you refer to God as Father? Cause what you wrote isn't the reason why you are able to.

Orthodox Christians refer to God as "Father" because we are instructed to do so whenever we pray, especially the Lord's Prayer, which is prayed at all liturgical hours and Holy Services of our Church, including our prayers at home.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #103 on: December 17, 2013, 05:21:38 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.

Obviously, Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three Gods, but only one Godhead. This belief in the Holy Trinity is a Holy Mystery revealed by the Godhead. We see evidence of the gradual teaching of the Holy Trinity in Genesis, when it is written, let us create man in our own image. The plural "us" and "we" indicate that the Godhead is composed of three Divine Persons, yet the Godhead is One God.

So I am not sure what you doing here, can you explain to me why you refer to God as Father? Cause what you wrote isn't the reason why you are able to.

Orthodox Christians refer to God as "Father" because we are instructed to do so whenever we pray, especially the Lord's Prayer, which is prayed at all liturgical hours and Holy Services of our Church, including our prayers at home.

Well that is a sort of a why. Not what I was looking for, but that's OK.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2013, 05:22:51 PM »

Orthodox Christians refer to God as "Father" because we are instructed to do so whenever we pray, especially the Lord's Prayer, which is prayed at all liturgical hours and Holy Services of our Church, including our prayers at home.

Also because God designated Himself as the Father in the Bible. To contrast the Bible with the Qur'an:

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:7-11)

And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings, of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the return (of all). (Surah 5:18)
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Offline LBK

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2013, 05:30:17 PM »

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.


Because His Son told us to. Sunday School 101.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #106 on: December 17, 2013, 05:48:49 PM »

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.


Because His Son told us to. Sunday School 101.

You gotta move past that. He didn't tell "us" to. He told specific people. And all of "us" aren't those people. In virtue of what can a person dare to call upon the living God in such a manner?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 05:49:01 PM by orthonorm »
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline LBK

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #107 on: December 17, 2013, 05:54:15 PM »

You gotta move past that.

Why? Aren't the words of Christ Himself reason enough to follow Him?  ::)

He didn't tell "us" to. He told specific people. And all of "us" aren't those people.

We are the Church, the Body of Christ, irrespective of time or place, just as the Apostles and their successors were and still are.

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Math lover

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2013, 06:11:49 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.

Obviously, Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three Gods, but only one Godhead. This belief in the Holy Trinity is a Holy Mystery revealed by the Godhead. We see evidence of the gradual teaching of the Holy Trinity in Genesis, when it is written, let us create man in our own image. The plural "us" and "we" indicate that the Godhead is composed of three Divine Persons, yet the Godhead is One God.

In the Qur'an, God refers to Himself as "We", but it is interpreted as the plural of majesty.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2013, 06:23:43 PM »

In the Qur'an, God refers to Himself as "We", but it is interpreted as the plural of majesty.

Even when the plural of majesty is used in a language, the noun remains in singular form. For instance, the Queen of England once said: "We are a grandmother" (not grandmothers, of course).

Nonetheless, in the Qur'an even the noun gets plural marker when that - supposedly- plural of majesty is used:

And certainly We! We it is Who give life, and cause death and We are the Inheritors. (Surah 15:23)

Unto the Jews did we forbid every [beast] having an [undivided] hoof; and of bullocks and sheep, we forbade them the fat of both; except that which should be on their backs, or their inwards, or which should be intermixed with the bone. This have we rewarded them with, because of their iniquity; and we are surely speakers of truth.  (Surah 6:146)

According to the Qur'an, Allah is plural.
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2013, 06:59:59 PM »
... the Queen of England Margaret Thatcher once said: "We are a grandmother"


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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2013, 07:00:36 PM »
... the Queen of England Margaret Thatcher once said: "We are a grandmother"


Same thing.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2013, 07:37:16 PM »
Orthodox Christians refer to God as "Father" because we are instructed to do so whenever we pray, especially the Lord's Prayer, which is prayed at all liturgical hours and Holy Services of our Church, including our prayers at home.

Quote from: The Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. Basil/St. John Chrysostom
And make us worthy, Master, with confidence and without fear of condemnation, to dare call You, the heavenly God, Father, and to say: Our Father...

Quote from: Roman Mass
Admonished by Your saving precepts and following Your divine instruction, we make bold to say: Our Father...

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #113 on: December 17, 2013, 10:49:24 PM »
Orthodox Christians refer to God as "Father" because we are instructed to do so whenever we pray, especially the Lord's Prayer, which is prayed at all liturgical hours and Holy Services of our Church, including our prayers at home.

Quote from: The Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. Basil/St. John Chrysostom
And make us worthy, Master, with confidence and without fear of condemnation, to dare call You, the heavenly God, Father, and to say: Our Father...

Quote from: Roman Mass
Admonished by Your saving precepts and following Your divine instruction, we make bold to say: Our Father...

My favourite is from the Armenian Liturgy:

Quote
O God of truth and Father of mercies, we thank thee who hast exalted our nature, condemned as we were, above that of the blessed patriarchs; for thou wast called God unto them, whereas in pity thou hast been pleased to be named Father unto us.  And now, O Lord, we beseech thee, make the grace of so new and precious a naming of thyself shine forth and flourish day by day in thy holy Church.  And grant us to open our mouths with a cry of bold voice, to call upon thee, O heavenly Father, to sing and say, "Our Father, who art in heaven..."
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #114 on: December 18, 2013, 03:26:24 AM »
Orthonorm,

If Math Lover is right, that Poppy is being taught by Salafis, Salafis have a strict rule against the use of the word "Father".  To Salafi scholars, the word "Father" is blasphemy.

I can accept the fact that the word "Father" is debatable in Islamic theology based on different scholars' thoughts.  The point is when it comes to strictly the "99 names of Allah", not one of them is "Father".  Muslims are encouraged to contemplate on the very name "Allah".  Allah itself, and the Muslims here can correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be the "indescribable essence" of Allah if you will.  That's why Sufis have developed a theological system where the contemplation on the word "Allah" leads to a "mystical experience" with Him.  It's a very interesting tradition, and one that is most prevalent in Turkish history.  "Sufism" is complicated in that one can be "Sunni" and practice Sufism.  Salafis would be quite skeptical of Sufism and consider it close to blasphemy as well.

Within Sunni Islam, we see the makings of separate sects already if anything.  So, I suppose it depends on which sect of Sunni thought you follow, whether one considers the word "Father" acceptable or not.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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