Author Topic: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed  (Read 4917 times)

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Offline Poppy

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Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 05:08:30 PM by Poppy »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2013, 05:21:21 PM »
Is it that these things cannot be investigated, or is it just that they shouldn't be?

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2013, 05:34:11 PM »
Poppy, why are you here?
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2013, 05:35:59 PM »
Is it that these things cannot be investigated, or is it just that they shouldn't be?

I posted should all over the op.

But, can not, must not, should not, will not, would not, all work for me.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2013, 05:37:40 PM »
Poppy, why are you here?

I have been here a long time, before I was reverted. If you actual read my posts you would know the answer to that. I'm not repeating it every time some lazyass asks me.

And it's not like I am interrupting some amazing thread discussions on oc is it? Like really! have you looked at most of the new threads on here? Hardly blow you away uh?
 Poppy,

You should know better than throwing ad hominems on people.  You started this thread a bit "preachy", and being that you're non-Orthodox, what do you expect people to reply?  Perhaps, you should start with, "Can we discuss something that we might agree upon?  What do you think of this statement..."  Then you'll get people's non-suspicions and respect.

Since you have been warned before in the past using ad hominems for 14 days back in 2011, I am going to give you a 30-day warning.

God bless.

Mina
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 08:23:52 PM by minasoliman »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2013, 05:40:44 PM »
Is the following an example of something we cannot/should not discuss?

"Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life."

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2013, 05:45:02 PM »
Is it already Islamic Neophyte Declarative Statement o' clock, or is there a question or point of discussion here that I'm missing? ???

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2013, 05:46:26 PM »
What constitute as 'common things'?
Is it the choice of speech? If so, I don't believe any language on Earth is suited to describe any divine subject without bringing it down to a human level. You can never adequately explain things, perhaps. But it's not blatantly disrespectful, to me.
Or is it the intentions behind the person 'pulling the ideas apart'?
I think humans are inquisitive beings, we're always going to be cynical and sceptical and discuss things as important as our religious beliefs. Whether or not we do this in an apparently flippant fashion isn't important imo, unless our intentions are disrespect. I think that it's a good thing, questioning and discussing things of a divine nature. By trying to contemplate and understand our beliefs more, we can perhaps have a greater conviction in them, even if as humans we are never able to fully understand them.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2013, 05:46:35 PM »
Is the following an example of something we cannot/should not discuss?

"Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life."

That is a fact agreed upon by both of our religions. That All Mighty is the only source and resource who sustains life. Armen.

If the fact is accepted and discussion is from gratitude then sure. I'm talking about between people of faith here, not dawah or something. That's different, but even then there is a line that can't/shouldn't be crossed. You present the facts and then let the person chew on them as they wish. Some things are not up for discussion.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2013, 05:48:36 PM »
Is it already Islamic Neophyte Declarative Statement o' clock, or is there a question or point of discussion here that I'm missing? ???

Yea, you're missing the gene that makes you funny or original.

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2013, 05:54:08 PM »
Is the following an example of something we cannot/should not discuss?

"Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life."

That is a fact agreed upon by both of our religions. That All Mighty is the only source and resource who sustains life. Armen.

If the fact is accepted and discussion is from gratitude then sure. I'm talking about between people of faith here, not dawah or something. That's different, but even then there is a line that can't/shouldn't be crossed. You present the facts and then let the person chew on them as they wish. Some things are not up for discussion.

Poppy, I am praying for your conversion back to Holy Orthodoxy.

Yes, it is true that some of us here are neither respectful of each other nor of the Divine Godhead. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy. Lord have mercy.

I have known some Roman Catholic seminarians who studied metaphysics and in their attempt to understand God, they dissected the Godhead until they began to doubt and then eventually deny His very existence. They and their scholastic teachers are to be pitied, for ultimnately, they will have to face God at the Last Judgment.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 05:55:05 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2013, 05:54:59 PM »
I say this with all possible respect:

If we should just accept "the nature ad attributes of Allah", wouldn't that make us muslims? Therefore, since we are christians, could you even expect us to do anything else than question these things?
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2013, 05:58:25 PM »
What constitute as 'common things'?
Is it the choice of speech? If so, I don't believe any language on Earth is suited to describe any divine subject without bringing it down to a human level. You can never adequately explain things, perhaps. But it's not blatantly disrespectful, to me.
Or is it the intentions behind the person 'pulling the ideas apart'?
I think humans are inquisitive beings, we're always going to be cynical and sceptical and discuss things as important as our religious beliefs. Whether or not we do this in an apparently flippant fashion isn't important imo, unless our intentions are disrespect. I think that it's a good thing, questioning and discussing things of a divine nature. By trying to contemplate and understand our beliefs more, we can perhaps have a greater conviction in them, even if as humans we are never able to fully understand them.

Neither really, although they are both important generally when discussing about The All Mighty.

It's the fact that some things should just be left alone. Either accepted or rejected but left. Kind of like the picture of a baby in the womb, they do not fascinate me or give me joy to see such secrets. They make me want to look away, like I am viewing an image of something All Mighty Allah does not want me to witness or our bellies would have friken windows on them! Even the bible says it is a secret place.

Like the transubstantiation (I know you don't call it that or disagree with that premise but for the sake of another name) if I believed that, I would not even discuss it, as some Orthodox don't, which I total respect.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2013, 06:02:17 PM »
Is the following an example of something we cannot/should not discuss?

"Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life."

That is a fact agreed upon by both of our religions. That All Mighty is the only source and resource who sustains life. Armen.

If the fact is accepted and discussion is from gratitude then sure. I'm talking about between people of faith here, not dawah or something. That's different, but even then there is a line that can't/shouldn't be crossed. You present the facts and then let the person chew on them as they wish. Some things are not up for discussion.

Poppy, I am praying for your conversion back to Holy Orthodoxy.

Yes, it is true that some of us here are neither respectful of each other nor of the Divine Godhead. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy. Lord have mercy.

I have known some Roman Catholic seminarians who studied metaphysics and in their attempt to understand God, they dissected the Godhead until they began to doubt and then eventually deny His very existence. They and their scholastic teachers are to be pitied, for ultimnately, they will have to face God at the Last Judgment.

You make a rli good point!

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2013, 06:05:58 PM »
What constitute as 'common things'?
Is it the choice of speech? If so, I don't believe any language on Earth is suited to describe any divine subject without bringing it down to a human level. You can never adequately explain things, perhaps. But it's not blatantly disrespectful, to me.
Or is it the intentions behind the person 'pulling the ideas apart'?
I think humans are inquisitive beings, we're always going to be cynical and sceptical and discuss things as important as our religious beliefs. Whether or not we do this in an apparently flippant fashion isn't important imo, unless our intentions are disrespect. I think that it's a good thing, questioning and discussing things of a divine nature. By trying to contemplate and understand our beliefs more, we can perhaps have a greater conviction in them, even if as humans we are never able to fully understand them.

Neither really, although they are both important generally when discussing about The All Mighty.

It's the fact that some things should just be left alone. Either accepted or rejected but left. Kind of like the picture of a baby in the womb, they do not fascinate me or give me joy to see such secrets. They make me want to look away, like I am viewing an image of something All Mighty Allah does not want me to witness or our bellies would have friken windows on them! Even the bible says it is a secret place.

Like the transubstantiation (I know you don't call it that or disagree with that premise but for the sake of another name) if I believed that, I would not even discuss it, as some Orthodox don't, which I total respect.

I don't think some things 'should' inherently be left alone... Maybe if you tread into them, the results will be negative, and I think that yes, things such as transubstantiation cannot really be understood. I don't think it's the discussion of the ideas that should not be done, more than you shouldn't make bold conclusions based on what you think you know. Is it harmful to discuss ideas that we can't really understand? Do I consider it somewhat disrespectful to discuss it? Eh... possibly. But that's not what I'm talking about. For example, a lot of people question and pick apart their own beliefs, and then denounce their religion, because they believe they understand. But I think that the negative consequences aren't a result of the discussion of the 'taboo' topic, more that the person thinks they can understand what they cannot. I don't expect us to ever think we can understand many divine topics, and I think it's disrespectful and uncalled for to assume that you do. But I don't see any harm in discussion with respect, or even 'pulling apart' ideas in a more passive way, provided you don't assume you know better than you obviously do.

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2013, 06:08:47 PM »
Poppy, why are you here?

I have been here a long time, before I was reverted. If you actual read my posts you would know the answer to that. I'm not repeating it every time some lazyass asks me.

And it's not like I am interrupting some amazing thread discussions on oc is it? Like really! have you looked at most of the new threads on here? Hardly blow you away uh?

I have read your posts, and you frequently dodge that question, as you have now.  If you would read my replies to your previous posts, you would know that.

And I would appreciate it if you did not insinuate that I was lazy.

I ask again, why are you here?  I have my suspicions, but I would rather hear why you think you are here.

If you're just here to lecture us on how we should do things, bring us to the "straight path," or show off your awesome new Arab terms, then I'll mind my own business and skip your threads.  But I happen to know a good bit about Islam, albeit not the extremely narrow version you have chosen to be exposed to, and I generally find topics you've brought up interesting.  

But if you would like to be defensive and hostile while illuminating us with your wisdom on this Orthodox Christian board, expect some pushback.  
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2013, 06:09:16 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

Can we also discuss Allah's daughter Allat?

Why are you Muslims so misogynist? You worship Allah (the male supreme deity of Meccan polytheism), but deny his daughters. Why is that?  ???
Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2013, 06:10:54 PM »
Is the following an example of something we cannot/should not discuss?

"Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life."

That is a fact agreed upon by both of our religions. That All Mighty is the only source and resource who sustains life. Armen.

If the fact is accepted and discussion is from gratitude then sure. I'm talking about between people of faith here, not dawah or something. That's different, but even then there is a line that can't/shouldn't be crossed. You present the facts and then let the person chew on them as they wish. Some things are not up for discussion.

Poppy, I am praying for your conversion back to Holy Orthodoxy.

Yes, it is true that some of us here are neither respectful of each other nor of the Divine Godhead. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy. Lord have mercy.

I have known some Roman Catholic seminarians who studied metaphysics and in their attempt to understand God, they dissected the Godhead until they began to doubt and then eventually deny His very existence. They and their scholastic teachers are to be pitied, for ultimnately, they will have to face God at the Last Judgment.

You make a rli good point!

Except that their decision is not a result of their 'dissection', more like a result of their own overestimation of their understanding and reasoning skills.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2013, 06:12:04 PM »
I say this with all possible respect:

If we should just accept "the nature ad attributes of Allah", wouldn't that make us muslims? Therefore, since we are christians, could you even expect us to do anything else than question these things?

I'm not talking about dawah (testifying to another of your religion for the purpose of their conversion). I'm referring to you accepting what your religion teaches and me mine, in the aspects regarding the nature of The All Mighty.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2013, 06:13:05 PM »
Is it already Islamic Neophyte Declarative Statement o' clock, or is there a question or point of discussion here that I'm missing? ???

Yea, you're missing the gene that makes you funny or original.

And you're missing even the minimal amount of smarts it takes to not fall for any hoary old heresies repackaged by an illiterate paedophile and sold to you on the strength of its exotic allure by virtue of it being conveyed in a language you don't understand via a series of conveniently-timed "revelations" from a supposed angel that nobody since has ever been allowed to question.

Nyeh nyeh nyeh.

There are worse things than not being funny, and your "reversion" is a prime example of one.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 06:14:04 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2013, 06:13:36 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

Can we also discuss Allah's daughter Allat?

Why are you Muslims so misogynist? You worship Allah (the male supreme deity of Meccan polytheism), but deny his daughters. Why is that?  ???

Off topic for this thread.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2013, 06:15:56 PM »

Off topic for this thread.

That means it is one of the topics that should not be discussed about Allah.  ;D

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Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2013, 06:18:46 PM »
Is it already Islamic Neophyte Declarative Statement o' clock, or is there a question or point of discussion here that I'm missing? ???

Yea, you're missing the gene that makes you funny or original.

And you're missing even the minimal amount of smarts it takes to not fall for any hoary old heresies repackaged by an illiterate paedophile and sold to you on the strength of its exotic allure by virtue of it being conveyed in a language you don't understand via a series of conveniently-timed "revelations" from a supposed angel that nobody since has ever been allowed to question.

Nyeh nyeh nyeh.

There are worse things than not being funny, and your "reversion" is a prime example of one.

"exotic allure" aka projection, on your part.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 06:19:39 PM by Poppy »

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2013, 06:20:23 PM »

Off topic for this thread.

That means it is one of the topics that should not be discussed about Allah.  ;D


Nope. Feel free to start a thread. Just not this one.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2013, 06:22:29 PM »
Nope. Feel free to start a thread. Just not this one.

Then please do us a favour and tell us what this thread is or should be about... You could give a list of the topics that you think should not be discussed about Allah/Hubal..
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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2013, 06:24:06 PM »
Nope. Feel free to start a thread. Just not this one.

Then please do us a favour and tell us what this thread is or should be about... You could give a list of the topics that you think should not be discussed about Allah/Hubal..

Since this would probably be open to opinion, isn't it fair to say that there aren't any subjects that inherently shouldn't be discussed?

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2013, 06:29:31 PM »
Nope. Feel free to start a thread. Just not this one.

Then please do us a favour and tell us what this thread is or should be about... You could give a list of the topics that you think should not be discussed about Allah/Hubal..

To her credit, she has already explained that she didn't mean to refer specifically to Allah. I might be wrong, but I think she made the thread in order to make a point.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2013, 06:29:46 PM »
I remember a conference held in Pakistan on "Things Known to Allah Alone."  The more intelligent asked what they would talk about, seeing that the conference they were holding was on things by definition they knew nothing about.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2013, 06:30:36 PM »

Off topic for this thread.

That means it is one of the topics that should not be discussed about Allah.  ;D



Touche! Well done.
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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2013, 06:31:51 PM »

Off topic for this thread.

That means it is one of the topics that should not be discussed about Allah.  ;D



Touche! Well done.

I did wonder if the original comment was a 'trap' to lure OP into the 'off topic' reply.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2013, 06:33:11 PM »
Is it already Islamic Neophyte Declarative Statement o' clock, or is there a question or point of discussion here that I'm missing? ???

Yea, you're missing the gene that makes you funny or original.

And you're missing even the minimal amount of smarts it takes to not fall for any hoary old heresies repackaged by an illiterate paedophile and sold to you on the strength of its exotic allure by virtue of it being conveyed in a language you don't understand via a series of conveniently-timed "revelations" from a supposed angel that nobody since has ever been allowed to question.

Nyeh nyeh nyeh.

There are worse things than not being funny, and your "reversion" is a prime example of one.

"exotic allure" aka projection, on your part.



Is it? Tells us again what this "SWT" business is all about with reference to your "Allah"...since this thread still has no explicit point...  ::)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2013, 06:37:56 PM »
I remember a conference held in Pakistan on "Things Known to Allah Alone."  The more intelligent asked what they would talk about, seeing that the conference they were holding was on things by definition they knew nothing about.


 :D  :D :D



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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2013, 06:38:45 PM »
I was going to make a thread on some impressions I've gathered from Islam. Seeing jeremy's posts and theos' reminds me why it would be a waste of time.

January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2013, 06:39:05 PM »

To her credit, she has already explained that she didn't mean to refer specifically to Allah.

That means her intentions do not match her actions.  ::)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2013, 06:40:08 PM »
I remember a conference held in Pakistan on "Things Known to Allah Alone."  The more intelligent asked what they would talk about, seeing that the conference they were holding was on things by definition they knew nothing about.


 :D  :D :D

You laugh and show your own ignorance of the history of epistemology or even a speech famously made by Rumsfeld.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2013, 06:42:45 PM »
You laugh and show your own ignorance of the history of epistemology or even a speech famously made by Rumsfeld.

Have mercy on me, an ignorant poster, and enlighten me with your amazing wisdom!  :laugh:
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2013, 06:45:16 PM »

To her credit, she has already explained that she didn't mean to refer specifically to Allah.

That means her intentions do not match her actions.  ::)

I can't say for sure, but even if it is so, is that not a very common phenomenon? I honestly don't think it deserves an eye-rolling. She doesn't seem to have had any ill intentions with making this thread.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2013, 06:52:01 PM »
I was going to make a thread on some impressions I've gathered from Islam. Seeing jeremy's posts and theos' reminds me why it would be a waste of time.

And to think just a few weeks ago I posted what you yourself wrote should be some kind of template for Islamic-Christian discussion around here. So it's not like I don't know how to do it, by your own admission, but what is to be done with an opening post that is a declarative statement and and a thread poster who writes that other threads are boring, so why not post this Islamic claptrap with no context or purpose whatsoever?

Epistemology, my 'Aas...this thread is about nothing, which is fitting given its opening quotation.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 06:52:57 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2013, 07:16:15 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

Can we also discuss Allah's daughter Allat?

Why are you Muslims so misogynist? You worship Allah (the male supreme deity of Meccan polytheism), but deny his daughters. Why is that?  ???
Why can't Allah have a "daughter"?

Yahweh had a Son.

Oh no, they're the same person.

Huh? ???

(Sorry, the Trinity always been a tough one for me  ;))
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2013, 07:16:42 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

If we merely contemplate at God and His attributes, we treat Him like a concept, not like a God we have a relationship with.  There's a reason why we can recognize attributes in God.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2013, 07:20:43 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

If we merely contemplate at God and His attributes, we treat Him like a concept, not like a God we have a relationship with.  There's a reason why we can recognize attributes in God.

Can you not contemplate aspects of religion without treating God like a concept? You could contemplate many 'divine' acts that we cannot understand, but hold faith in. It would not be treating them like concepts, nor God, more trying to make sense of something we inherently can't understand, as is human nature. One can be respectful whilst being curious. Or am I missing your point?

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2013, 07:25:46 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

If we merely contemplate at God and His attributes, we treat Him like a concept, not like a God we have a relationship with.  There's a reason why we can recognize attributes in God.

Can you not contemplate aspects of religion without treating God like a concept? You could contemplate many 'divine' acts that we cannot understand, but hold faith in. It would not be treating them like concepts, nor God, more trying to make sense of something we inherently can't understand, as is human nature. One can be respectful whilst being curious. Or am I missing your point?

Contemplation can get you so far.  Yes, it could help understanding something.  In a way, contemplation can be a form of meditation.  But meditation should turn into prayer, not into an philosophical list of descriptions.

One attribute of God is "the Way".  If I am on "the Way", I become "the Way" for others as well.  Attributes must be a means for a relationship, that I may live in God and God lives in me, and we have communion together.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 07:26:04 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2013, 07:26:00 PM »
Maybe the key there is the "merely" part, Mamizous, so that we don't get hung up on seeing Him as a disembodied set of attributes (cf. the Islamic doxology that starts out the chapters of their Qur'an, or their practice of meditating upon Allah's 99 names, which are largely attributive).

Offline augustin717

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2013, 07:35:24 PM »
I don't care enough and don't know enough about Islam to comment on this although most Muslim I met were really decent fellows. I'll just comment on the exoticism snide comment which is rich coming from someone that joined the Copts in California. Come on now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2013, 07:40:18 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

If we merely contemplate at God and His attributes, we treat Him like a concept, not like a God we have a relationship with.  There's a reason why we can recognize attributes in God.

Can you not contemplate aspects of religion without treating God like a concept? You could contemplate many 'divine' acts that we cannot understand, but hold faith in. It would not be treating them like concepts, nor God, more trying to make sense of something we inherently can't understand, as is human nature. One can be respectful whilst being curious. Or am I missing your point?

Contemplation can get you so far.  Yes, it could help understanding something.  In a way, contemplation can be a form of meditation.  But meditation should turn into prayer, not into an philosophical list of descriptions.

One attribute of God is "the Way".  If I am on "the Way", I become "the Way" for others as well.  Attributes must be a means for a relationship, that I may live in God and God lives in me, and we have communion together.

What it should turn into and what it actually turns into is an issue of the person, not of the act of contemplation, hmm?
Attributes in terms of God can never be truly understood through contemplation, but it's not that they shouldn't be, just that we lack the ability to understand them, because it's so far removed from what we see in human beings and other worldly contingent objects. It's not that we relish in comparing God to humans, more that we can't even begin to imagine or understand the attributes of God, let alone try to theorise the 'mechanics' behind them perfectly. Even use of human terms that seek to explain attributes of God are surely just to convey said attributes to us on a human level, and are an accurate way to convey such ideas, but I don't believe they are adequate, they just 'are'. Can contemplation of attributes of God, be considered perhaps disrespectful, or wrong in some way? I do not think so, unless the intentions are ill, and so long as we understand that we can never truly understand them. What we do with the contemplation, as you said, is indeed the important thing.
I do believe that those who denounce their faith due to contemplation of the idea of God Himself, are doing so because they treat God as a concept. This is because they see Him as one possibility in a long list of separate ideas, due to their own ignorance and misled sense of reasoning. But as I said, the problem is with the person, not the act of contemplation.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2013, 07:49:54 PM »
I don't care enough and don't know enough about Islam to comment on this although most Muslim I met were really decent fellows. I'll just comment on the exoticism snide comment which is rich coming from someone that joined the Copts in California. Come on now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Awww, Augustin...how sweet of you to care enough to follow me around the board to remind me of your opinion. Am I developing a Marxist shadow? :-*

Also "what's good for the geese is good for the gander" doesn't work here, as we're not talking about gender relations. Please learn what words mean before you use them.

And I did not join the Copts in California, and at any rate our liturgies are in English in this country (quite on purpose, too). Believe me, if we knew each other in person you'd know how little of that characterization fits my situation. I'm pretty sure my Arabic has actually gotten worse since becoming Coptic Orthodox, since I almost never use it (I learned it to whatever extent that I did in order to fulfill requirements for my degree; as a language, it's nice but nothing I felt particularly drawn to beyond the fact that it was offered and I've always wanted to learn a language with a right-to-left script to avoid some of the handwriting smudge problems that I encounter as a left-handed person). No, rather, the charge of exoticism can and is laid at the feet of the Islamic neophyte due to the tendency of such people, including Poppy, to pepper their otherwise English speech with Arabic-language Islamic honorifics, a steadfast refusal to use perfectly good English cognates for theological terms and labels (it's like it would take an act of GOD Himself to get such people to say GOD instead of Allah), etc. I believe someone else pointed this out in the last thread that Poppy made about her new religious choice (the "HRMMM HAR" one or whatever it was called), stating what most of us who have had any occasion to be among "reverts" (more Islamo-speak that we're just all just supposed to accept as not ridiculous) have also noticed, and I certainly noticed long before I ever knew what the Coptic Orthodox Church was (or is it also "exotic" for a person from a Catholic family to be Roman Catholic?): That newly-minted Muslims really take the LARPing thing to entirely new level when it comes to their use of language.

Ana Sahiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiih?

(or I guess I wanted to really LARP out, Sa7iiiiiiiiiii7)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 07:50:51 PM by dzheremi »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2013, 07:50:55 PM »
The reason why I'm downplaying contemplation, while it can be a good tool, it is not as important as prayer and communion with God.

Think of it this way:  there is more value in a poor and ignorant man (or as St. Paul says, foolish and weak) who spends his lifetime with God than a great scholar (strong and wise) who memorizes the whole Bible but has no room in His heart for God.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2013, 07:54:57 PM »
The reason why I'm downplaying contemplation, while it can be a good tool, it is not as important as prayer and communion with God.

Think of it this way:  there is more value in a poor and ignorant man (or as St. Paul says, foolish and weak) who spends his lifetime with God than a great scholar (strong and wise) who memorizes the whole Bible but has no room in His heart for God.

True.
But I do not think contemplation itself is a direct distraction from prayer.

Offline biro

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2013, 07:58:59 PM »
Poppy, no offense but this is an Orthodox Christian site and I'm curious as to why you would expect us to go by Muslim standards here.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2013, 08:19:47 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

 Of allah things to get worked up over, you picked this?   :-* 
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2013, 08:33:26 PM »
Poppy, no offense but this is an Orthodox Christian site and I'm curious as to why you would expect us to go by Muslim standards here.

  That's what they do.  They're not very inventive.  I mean, you'd think a Taliban would come up with a nom de guerre a little more original than "poppy".   ;)
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2013, 08:37:21 PM »
Careful with the kissy face, Gabriel...you don't want to Qu'ran a foul of Allah for breaking his strict rules against the mixing of the sexes...

(Dag-nabi-t, that was awful. I'm sorry.)

Edit: I change my mind from earlier; Arabic is pretty fun.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 08:38:15 PM by dzheremi »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2013, 09:16:27 PM »
I don't care enough and don't know enough about Islam to comment on this although most Muslim I met were really decent fellows. I'll just comment on the exoticism snide comment which is rich coming from someone that joined the Copts in California. Come on now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Awww, Augustin...how sweet of you to care enough to follow me around the board to remind me of your opinion. Am I developing a Marxist shadow? :-*

Also "what's good for the geese is good for the gander" doesn't work here, as we're not talking about gender relations. Please learn what words mean before you use them.

And I did not join the Copts in California, and at any rate our liturgies are in English in this country (quite on purpose, too). Believe me, if we knew each other in person you'd know how little of that characterization fits my situation. I'm pretty sure my Arabic has actually gotten worse since becoming Coptic Orthodox, since I almost never use it (I learned it to whatever extent that I did in order to fulfill requirements for my degree; as a language, it's nice but nothing I felt particularly drawn to beyond the fact that it was offered and I've always wanted to learn a language with a right-to-left script to avoid some of the handwriting smudge problems that I encounter as a left-handed person). No, rather, the charge of exoticism can and is laid at the feet of the Islamic neophyte due to the tendency of such people, including Poppy, to pepper their otherwise English speech with Arabic-language Islamic honorifics, a steadfast refusal to use perfectly good English cognates for theological terms and labels (it's like it would take an act of GOD Himself to get such people to say GOD instead of Allah), etc. I believe someone else pointed this out in the last thread that Poppy made about her new religious choice (the "HRMMM HAR" one or whatever it was called), stating what most of us who have had any occasion to be among "reverts" (more Islamo-speak that we're just all just supposed to accept as not ridiculous) have also noticed, and I certainly noticed long before I ever knew what the Coptic Orthodox Church was (or is it also "exotic" for a person from a Catholic family to be Roman Catholic?): That newly-minted Muslims really take the LARPing thing to entirely new level when it comes to their use of language.

Ana Sahiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiih?

(or I guess I wanted to really LARP out, Sa7iiiiiiiiiii7)
You're left handed too?

btw, there is something to compare this strange English with: in Persian, 90% Muslim, they call "God" "God" ("khoda" to be specific).

Yes, there is a lot of Arabic borrowing, but that's because Arabic plays the role that Latin and Greek does in English.  So all this tossing about of Arabic just results in jargon.  It doesn't Islamicize the language, just makes it incomprehensible to non-Muslims.

As for augustine's swipe at the Copts, most of them don't call DL "Divine Liturghy."  They say "Mass."
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2013, 09:46:05 PM »
True on all counts, Isa. There was a Persian guy who used to live in my apartment building back in Oregon. Everything was "Khoda hafez" this, "khoda hafez" that... :) I like Persians. From my limited experience, they and Somalis tend(ed) to be much more pragmatic about their religion...not sure how much that has changed in the intervening years, what with the Somalis in MN getting mixed up with Al-Shabab...

Anyway, I'm fine with Arabic being (in) anybody's language, obviously. It's just funny to read and hear from self-described "reverts" all this Arabish nonsense and then to have them turn around and say that their religion is for all mankind or that they're not putting on airs...it's more than I could even manage in Coptic or Egyptian Arabic (predictably, my year of classes was in MSA), even if the people at church had ever put any pressure on me to do so, which they haven't. One of them asked me to teach him how to read Coptic once, but that's about it. Usually it's the other way around and one of the aunties will corner me after the Agape meal and ask me for the millionth time if I'm really, really okay with everyone speaking Arabic around me. I always say yes, since what else would I expect Egyptians to speak with one another? It's enough that they have adopted English for ~80% of the liturgy (a percentage they basically don't tamper with, even though I'm the only native English-speaker who regularly attends), in an effort to bring the faith to all nations, including their adopted homeland. Geez...you'd think we were Christians or something... ::)

Offline RehamG

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2013, 12:29:39 AM »
Gonna watch and see if this thread metastasizes like the other one did.....
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2013, 09:14:37 AM »
This thread is fantastic. I should really heat up some bacon and watch this trainwreck.

PP
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 09:17:36 AM by primuspilus »
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2013, 09:25:40 AM »
This thread is fantastic. I should really heat up some bacon and watch this trainwreck.

PP

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2013, 09:28:49 AM »
This thread is fantastic. I should really heat up some bacon and watch this trainwreck.

PP

In times like these, ready-to-eat bacon is essential.
I would snag some in all of its instant salty goodness, but Advent and all......(WRO)

PP
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 09:29:09 AM by primuspilus »
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2013, 09:35:51 AM »
I don't care enough and don't know enough about Islam to comment on this although most Muslim I met were really decent fellows. I'll just comment on the exoticism snide comment which is rich coming from someone that joined the Copts in California. Come on now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Also "what's good for the geese is good for the gander" doesn't work here, as we're not talking about gender relations. Please learn what words mean before you use them.


PErhaps you should look up the term "idiom."
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 09:36:55 AM by Schultz »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2013, 10:56:30 AM »
No, rather, the charge of exoticism can and is laid at the feet of the Islamic neophyte due to the tendency of such people, including Poppy, to pepper their otherwise English speech with Arabic-language Islamic honorifics, a steadfast refusal to use perfectly good English cognates for theological terms and labels (it's like it would take an act of GOD Himself to get such people to say GOD instead of Allah), etc. I believe someone else pointed this out in the last thread that Poppy made about her new religious choice (the "HRMMM HAR" one or whatever it was called), stating what most of us who have had any occasion to be among "reverts" (more Islamo-speak that we're just all just supposed to accept as not ridiculous) have also noticed, and I certainly noticed long before I ever knew what the Coptic Orthodox Church was (or is it also "exotic" for a person from a Catholic family to be Roman Catholic?): That newly-minted Muslims really take the LARPing thing to entirely new level when it comes to their use of language.

Matushka trisagion hesychast proskemedia theotokos akathist apophatic orarion theosis. Endless insider jargon in Orthodoxy.

Offline Altar Server

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2013, 11:08:01 AM »
This thread is fantastic. I should really heat up some bacon and watch this trainwreck.

PP
Bacon sounds really good all of a sudden.....darn Nativity fast  :P
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 11:09:30 AM by Altar Server »
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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2013, 11:10:11 AM »
I consider it a blessing that I dislike bacon. :)

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2013, 11:29:07 AM »
I consider it a blessing that I dislike bacon. :)

That's OK. No one is perfect.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2013, 03:35:59 PM »
I bet, it's a bit more common, from a cultural point of view/frequency/ people being somehow aware of it-in the west for folks to "revert" to islam than to a middle eastern confession. just saying.
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2013, 03:44:05 PM »
No, rather, the charge of exoticism can and is laid at the feet of the Islamic neophyte due to the tendency of such people, including Poppy, to pepper their otherwise English speech with Arabic-language Islamic honorifics, a steadfast refusal to use perfectly good English cognates for theological terms and labels (it's like it would take an act of GOD Himself to get such people to say GOD instead of Allah), etc. I believe someone else pointed this out in the last thread that Poppy made about her new religious choice (the "HRMMM HAR" one or whatever it was called), stating what most of us who have had any occasion to be among "reverts" (more Islamo-speak that we're just all just supposed to accept as not ridiculous) have also noticed, and I certainly noticed long before I ever knew what the Coptic Orthodox Church was (or is it also "exotic" for a person from a Catholic family to be Roman Catholic?): That newly-minted Muslims really take the LARPing thing to entirely new level when it comes to their use of language.

Matushka trisagion hesychast proskemedia theotokos akathist apophatic orarion theosis. Endless insider jargon in Orthodoxy.

The funny thing is that most of these are Finnish words too. Welcome to Orthodoxy.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2013, 04:08:44 PM »
The reason why I'm downplaying contemplation, while it can be a good tool, it is not as important as prayer and communion with God.

Think of it this way:  there is more value in a poor and ignorant man (or as St. Paul says, foolish and weak) who spends his lifetime with God than a great scholar (strong and wise) who memorizes the whole Bible but has no room in His heart for God.

You do appreciate the Pauline irony though? I am not sure Paul is properly understood till his irony is understood.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2013, 04:15:46 PM »
No, rather, the charge of exoticism can and is laid at the feet of the Islamic neophyte due to the tendency of such people, including Poppy, to pepper their otherwise English speech with Arabic-language Islamic honorifics, a steadfast refusal to use perfectly good English cognates for theological terms and labels (it's like it would take an act of GOD Himself to get such people to say GOD instead of Allah), etc. I believe someone else pointed this out in the last thread that Poppy made about her new religious choice (the "HRMMM HAR" one or whatever it was called), stating what most of us who have had any occasion to be among "reverts" (more Islamo-speak that we're just all just supposed to accept as not ridiculous) have also noticed, and I certainly noticed long before I ever knew what the Coptic Orthodox Church was (or is it also "exotic" for a person from a Catholic family to be Roman Catholic?): That newly-minted Muslims really take the LARPing thing to entirely new level when it comes to their use of language.

Matushka trisagion hesychast proskemedia theotokos akathist apophatic orarion theosis. Endless insider jargon in Orthodoxy.

Yes, and people who make a point of overusing those words in mixed company without explaining them or who get defensive when this tendency to "Orthodoxize" their vocabulary is pointed out as being harmful to their spreading the message of Orthodox Christianity in an effective way are essentially just as bad as new Muslims who suddenly adopt Arab ways and language because they think it makes them better practitioners of their religion or gets them closer to God (er, pardon, ALLAH AL-WAHID, AL-SAMAD, PBUH SWT SAWS OPEC UIC ATM EIEIO QED ET AL ETC) or whatever. I have no trouble calling my priest Fr. Marcus or Abouna Marcos, depending on context, but remember where we are: An Orthodox Christian message board, where our Ortho-babble at least has a context. There is no context for Islamic nonsense here, and Poppy did not bother to provide a context.  If I went to an Islamic message board, even one in Arabic, and started topics by writing "Bismil Ab wel Ibn wel Ruh al-Quddus, al-Ilahu il-Wahid" and then proceeded to fill my posts with declarative statements regarding what Christianity says we are and are not to do, I would be fully expect to be taken to task for at least not having fully thought out the repercussions of what I posted. I might even be banned. I don't think Poppy should be banned at all, but come on...it is fully understandable that other people here would see this as part of a recurring pattern whereby she posts Islamic nonsense and the rest of us say "Nah...that's not what we're about; you're being silly and look like a A+ LARPer with this sort of thing." That's not ignoring the reality of Christian or Islam-specific lingo at all. That's telling a person they're being ridiculous when they post things that are pointless in the context of this message board.

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2013, 04:25:00 PM »
The reason why I'm downplaying contemplation, while it can be a good tool, it is not as important as prayer and communion with God.

Think of it this way:  there is more value in a poor and ignorant man (or as St. Paul says, foolish and weak) who spends his lifetime with God than a great scholar (strong and wise) who memorizes the whole Bible but has no room in His heart for God.

You do appreciate the Pauline irony though? I am not sure Paul is properly understood till his irony is understood.

I appreciate it in my own way, sort of humbling for me.  But when it comes to Paul, I could contemplate (uh oh...lol) and think of his Damascus experience and realize how his conversion was because of those who were of a much more humbling level than he is and because of a Christ who he previously saw as a weakness, foolishness, and stumbling block before his conversion.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2013, 05:01:49 PM »
There are some Russian words that my droogs and I use in regular conversation.  One of them sounds kinda like the acronym for Sturzkampfflugzeug. 

I would like to say it is an Orthodox LARPing thing, but it is probably a bit more Clockwork than that.  Except for the Sturzkampfflugzeug one.  That one is just because it is funner than even our English work for it. 
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Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2013, 06:18:38 PM »
Poppy, why are you here?

I have been here a long time, before I was reverted. If you actual read my posts you would know the answer to that. I'm not repeating it every time some lazyass asks me.

And it's not like I am interrupting some amazing thread discussions on oc is it? Like really! have you looked at most of the new threads on here? Hardly blow you away uh?

I have read your posts, and you frequently dodge that question, as you have now.  If you would read my replies to your previous posts, you would know that.

And I would appreciate it if you did not insinuate that I was lazy.

I ask again, why are you here?  I have my suspicions, but I would rather hear why you think you are here.

If you're just here to lecture us on how we should do things, bring us to the "straight path," or show off your awesome new Arab terms, then I'll mind my own business and skip your threads.  But I happen to know a good bit about Islam, albeit not the extremely narrow version you have chosen to be exposed to, and I generally find topics you've brought up interesting.  

But if you would like to be defensive and hostile while illuminating us with your wisdom on this Orthodox Christian board, expect some pushback.  

Look, I never claimed that I know a lot about Islam as I am only a new revert a few months. Before that, I did learn some Arabic to be able to read the Qur'an and since mixing with people at masjid, I have got way better at general Arabic communication as most there speak it and only a few speak other languages. Also, in our classes for women, we are encouraged to use the correct terms in the Qur'an because in English, they don't mean the same.

I posted a thread about the incarnation and some questions that were unanswered in my mind. I didn't feel comfortable asking my teacher at my classes and so I asked here. I remembered here from a couple years ago when I was on here looking into Christianity.

idc whether you believe me or not or even what your suspicions are about my motives, it's irrelevant.

Sorry about the lazyass thing, that was lame of me.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2013, 06:25:51 PM »
Also, in our classes for women, we are encouraged to use the correct terms in the Qur'an because in English, they don't mean the same.


For instance?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2013, 06:34:11 PM »
masjid

Do you mean a mosque?

Poppy I listen to and read a ton of stuff about Islam and have lived in Muslim majority populations.

Only reverts go on like this.

The word is mosque, why do you use masjid? Perhaps in England this is know an "English" word but it still grates at least on American ears.

The goofy would be Greeks, and Slavs, and Copts around here are just as annoying, but I am directing to you.

Why not mosque?
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2013, 06:35:50 PM »
There are some Russian words that my droogs and I use in regular conversation.  One of them sounds kinda like the acronym for Sturzkampfflugzeug.  

I would like to say it is an Orthodox LARPing thing, but it is probably a bit more Clockwork than that.  Except for the Sturzkampfflugzeug one.  That one is just because it is funner than even our English work for it.  

Trust me, go with larping. It fits most of your posts here.  
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 06:36:03 PM by orthonorm »
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2013, 06:40:46 PM »
masjid

Do you mean a mosque?

Poppy I listen to and read a ton of stuff about Islam and have lived in Muslim majority populations.

Only reverts go on like this.

The word is mosque, why do you use masjid? Perhaps in England this is know an "English" word but it still grates at least on American ears.

The goofy would be Greeks, and Slavs, and Copts around here are just as annoying, but I am directing to you.

Why not mosque?

Basically, masjid means place of worship (where people do homage/sajda). However, in some countries masjid is an Islamic place of worship without minarets, thus different from a mosque.
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Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2013, 06:58:02 PM »
Poppy, no offense but this is an Orthodox Christian site and I'm curious as to why you would expect us to go by Muslim standards here.

Biro, this isn't a Muslim thing which is why I brought it up. It's a problem with Christian and Muslim religions as I said before. I posted this thread more to get agreement on the issue than to preach at Christians. That wasn't where I was coming from at all.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2013, 07:20:01 PM »
masjid

Do you mean a mosque?

Poppy I listen to and read a ton of stuff about Islam and have lived in Muslim majority populations.

Only reverts go on like this.

The word is mosque, why do you use masjid? Perhaps in England this is know an "English" word but it still grates at least on American ears.

The goofy would be Greeks, and Slavs, and Copts around here are just as annoying, but I am directing to you.

Why not mosque?

Basically, masjid means place of worship (where people do homage/sajda). However, in some countries masjid is an Islamic place of worship without minarets, thus different from a mosque.

I wasn't asking you. And if I were, this is about as incoherent a response as I could hope to get. Thanks for not disappointing me.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2013, 07:27:45 PM »
masjid

Do you mean a mosque?

Poppy I listen to and read a ton of stuff about Islam and have lived in Muslim majority populations.

Only reverts go on like this.

The word is mosque, why do you use masjid? Perhaps in England this is know an "English" word but it still grates at least on American ears.

The goofy would be Greeks, and Slavs, and Copts around here are just as annoying, but I am directing to you.

Why not mosque?

Basically, masjid means place of worship (where people do homage/sajda). However, in some countries masjid is an Islamic place of worship without minarets, thus different from a mosque.

I wasn't asking you. And if I were, this is about as incoherent a response as I could hope to get. Thanks for not disappointing me.

Sorry, I had forgotten that ignorance and arrogance sounded similar.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2013, 07:31:55 PM »
No, rather, the charge of exoticism can and is laid at the feet of the Islamic neophyte due to the tendency of such people, including Poppy, to pepper their otherwise English speech with Arabic-language Islamic honorifics, a steadfast refusal to use perfectly good English cognates for theological terms and labels (it's like it would take an act of GOD Himself to get such people to say GOD instead of Allah), etc. I believe someone else pointed this out in the last thread that Poppy made about her new religious choice (the "HRMMM HAR" one or whatever it was called), stating what most of us who have had any occasion to be among "reverts" (more Islamo-speak that we're just all just supposed to accept as not ridiculous) have also noticed, and I certainly noticed long before I ever knew what the Coptic Orthodox Church was (or is it also "exotic" for a person from a Catholic family to be Roman Catholic?): That newly-minted Muslims really take the LARPing thing to entirely new level when it comes to their use of language.

Matushka

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Offline RehamG

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2013, 08:20:36 PM »
Look, I never claimed that I know a lot about Islam as I am only a new revert a few months.
[/quote]

But yet you think know enough to tout that some topics about Allah shouldn't be discussed....

(Why is my quote thingy not working for me today at all....sigh.)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 08:23:39 PM by RehamG »
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Offline biro

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2013, 09:40:13 PM »
Poppy, no offense but this is an Orthodox Christian site and I'm curious as to why you would expect us to go by Muslim standards here.

Biro, this isn't a Muslim thing which is why I brought it up. It's a problem with Christian and Muslim religions as I said before. I posted this thread more to get agreement on the issue than to preach at Christians. That wasn't where I was coming from at all.

Okay. :)
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2013, 01:26:37 AM »
masjid

Do you mean a mosque?

Poppy I listen to and read a ton of stuff about Islam and have lived in Muslim majority populations.

Only reverts go on like this.

The word is mosque, why do you use masjid? Perhaps in England this is know an "English" word but it still grates at least on American ears.

The goofy would be Greeks, and Slavs, and Copts around here are just as annoying, but I am directing to you.

Why not mosque?

Basically, masjid means place of worship (where people do homage/sajda). However, in some countries masjid is an Islamic place of worship without minarets, thus different from a mosque.

I wasn't asking you. And if I were, this is about as incoherent a response as I could hope to get. Thanks for not disappointing me.

Sorry, I had forgotten that ignorance and arrogance sounded similar.

+1
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Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2013, 10:33:48 AM »
Quote from: Poppy
Look, I never claimed that I know a lot about Islam as I am only a new revert a few months.

But yet you think know enough to tout that some topics about Allah shouldn't be discussed....

(Why is my quote thingy not working for me today at all....sigh.)
(answer = because you don't know "enough" about quote thingy's

Sure. I know enough to know that the fear/respect of Allah, subhana wa ta ala,  is paramount and only a fool would speak about the nature of The All Mighty in a common and casual a way as we talk about anything else in this world. As if absolutely everything in this life can come under our scrutiny and understanding, even that which is holy.

The bible says it is the beginning of wisdom. I am at the beginning of knowledge so, it's really appropriate that I know at least that much isn't it? I would consider at least that much to be "enough" yea.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:36:27 AM by Poppy »

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #82 on: December 17, 2013, 10:54:35 AM »

 of Allah, subhana wa ta ala,  

 English, please.
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #83 on: December 17, 2013, 11:22:04 AM »
Quote from: Poppy
Look, I never claimed that I know a lot about Islam as I am only a new revert a few months.

But yet you think know enough to tout that some topics about Allah shouldn't be discussed....

(Why is my quote thingy not working for me today at all....sigh.)
(answer = because you don't know "enough" about quote thingy's

Sure. I know enough to know that the fear/respect of Allah, subhana wa ta ala,  is paramount and only a fool would speak about the nature of The All Mighty in a common and casual a way as we talk about anything else in this world. As if absolutely everything in this life can come under our scrutiny and understanding, even that which is holy.

The bible says it is the beginning of wisdom. I am at the beginning of knowledge so, it's really appropriate that I know at least that much isn't it? I would consider at least that much to be "enough" yea.

There is a difference between fearing a God that demands submission and fearing a God who invites you to know Him.
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Offline Altar Server

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #84 on: December 17, 2013, 11:49:38 AM »
Quote from: Poppy
Look, I never claimed that I know a lot about Islam as I am only a new revert a few months.

But yet you think know enough to tout that some topics about Allah shouldn't be discussed....

(Why is my quote thingy not working for me today at all....sigh.)
(answer = because you don't know "enough" about quote thingy's

Sure. I know enough to know that the fear/respect of Allah, subhana wa ta ala,  is paramount and only a fool would speak about the nature of The All Mighty in a common and casual a way as we talk about anything else in this world. As if absolutely everything in this life can come under our scrutiny and understanding, even that which is holy.

The bible says it is the beginning of wisdom. I am at the beginning of knowledge so, it's really appropriate that I know at least that much isn't it? I would consider at least that much to be "enough" yea.

"This is the way we should see Christ. He is our friend, our brother; He is whatever is good and beautiful. He is everything. Yet, He is still a friend and He shouts it out, “You’re my friends, don’t you understand that? We’re brothers. I’m not…I don’t hold hell in my hands. I am not threatening you. I love you. I want you to enjoy life together with me.”-St. Porphyrios

To me this quote says volumes. Yes fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and we as Christians should fear God because He is the creator and judge of all things. That being said however in the Christian tradition God became a man and assumed our nature in every way but sin, so He is our brother and He called us His friends. God calls us into a relationship with Himself and loves us  more than we can fathom, so at some level Christians can show a familiarity with God because they are in a relationship with Him, they know Him, they are His friends, His brothers and sisters, we can know God, we can talk about God because He became a man in the person of Jesus Christ, yes we should speak about Him with respect, but I don't think there is anything about him we shouldn't talk about.
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Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #85 on: December 17, 2013, 02:03:27 PM »

 of Allah, subhana wa ta ala,  

 English, please.

I put a explanation earlier already.

You all post axios and other such words so, you need to first check out your own eyeball.

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2013, 02:12:00 PM »
So what are the topics you want people to feel that shouldn't be discussed about Allah, Poppy?  "Nature and attributes" is a vague phrase.  Or are you not allowed to discuss it?
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2013, 02:13:40 PM »

 of Allah, subhana wa ta ala,  

 English, please.

I put a explanation earlier already.

You all post axios and other such words so, you need to first check out your own eyeball.

As this is an Orthodox board and axios is used across a variety of jurisdictions its meaning is well known(and there have been times when people have asked for the meaning and have been given it) The majority of posters here do not speak Arabic nor are they muslims so subhana wa ta ala  is not a well known phrase....instead of getting defensive it might be easier to re explain the meaning for those of us who did not see your original post about it
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2013, 02:18:09 PM »
No, rather, the charge of exoticism can and is laid at the feet of the Islamic neophyte due to the tendency of such people, including Poppy, to pepper their otherwise English speech with Arabic-language Islamic honorifics, a steadfast refusal to use perfectly good English cognates for theological terms and labels (it's like it would take an act of GOD Himself to get such people to say GOD instead of Allah), etc. I believe someone else pointed this out in the last thread that Poppy made about her new religious choice (the "HRMMM HAR" one or whatever it was called), stating what most of us who have had any occasion to be among "reverts" (more Islamo-speak that we're just all just supposed to accept as not ridiculous) have also noticed, and I certainly noticed long before I ever knew what the Coptic Orthodox Church was (or is it also "exotic" for a person from a Catholic family to be Roman Catholic?): That newly-minted Muslims really take the LARPing thing to entirely new level when it comes to their use of language.

Matushka trisagion hesychast proskemedia theotokos akathist apophatic orarion theosis. Endless insider jargon in Orthodoxy.

Yes, and people who make a point of overusing those words in mixed company without explaining them or who get defensive when this tendency to "Orthodoxize" their vocabulary is pointed out as being harmful to their spreading the message of Orthodox Christianity in an effective way are essentially just as bad as new Muslims who suddenly adopt Arab ways and language because they think it makes them better practitioners of their religion or gets them closer to God (er, pardon, ALLAH AL-WAHID, AL-SAMAD, PBUH SWT SAWS OPEC UIC ATM EIEIO QED ET AL ETC) or whatever. I have no trouble calling my priest Fr. Marcus or Abouna Marcos, depending on context, but remember where we are: An Orthodox Christian message board, where our Ortho-babble at least has a context. There is no context for Islamic nonsense here, and Poppy did not bother to provide a context.  If I went to an Islamic message board, even one in Arabic, and started topics by writing "Bismil Ab wel Ibn wel Ruh al-Quddus, al-Ilahu il-Wahid" and then proceeded to fill my posts with declarative statements regarding what Christianity says we are and are not to do, I would be fully expect to be taken to task for at least not having fully thought out the repercussions of what I posted. I might even be banned. I don't think Poppy should be banned at all, but come on...it is fully understandable that other people here would see this as part of a recurring pattern whereby she posts Islamic nonsense and the rest of us say "Nah...that's not what we're about; you're being silly and look like a A+ LARPer with this sort of thing." That's not ignoring the reality of Christian or Islam-specific lingo at all. That's telling a person they're being ridiculous when they post things that are pointless in the context of this message board.

Please don't assume you know why I use certain words. It's not a closer to God thing or a cool thing or any other thing you have supposed. We are instructed this as reverts to be seriously important.

Maybe (and it's just a educated guess), why cradle Muslims don't do this is because they are brought up mostly total relaxed about their religion as it is completely a part of their whole life structure. But reverts are instructed by the most fervent, serious-minded Muslims who are quite often soely interested in turning people towards Islam and they tell you EVERYTHING that is important, to the smallest intention in your heart and the way in which you should show the greatest respect to Allah in your speech.

It is only for my benefit that I do as instructed, I need to always do what I know the Qur'an, ahadith and also sunnah gives me guidance to do - no matter how badly others think of (or talk about) me for doing so.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 02:18:43 PM by Poppy »

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #89 on: December 17, 2013, 02:30:05 PM »
Back on the main topic and original post, though, which topics pertaining to Allah shouldn't be discussed, or 'pulled apart'? Regardless of any terminology you use, for whatever reason you use it.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 02:30:39 PM by Mamizous »

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #90 on: December 17, 2013, 03:00:00 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2013, 03:11:42 PM »
When discussing Allah, keep in mind that perception is reality. You may see Allah and those attributes one way which is your reality, but we on here can and probably do perceive things differently. Hence why many often do pick apart Allah and things of an Islamic nature because they aren't Muslim, just like many Muslims do the same with Christ and Christianity as an example.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 03:13:32 PM by RehamG »
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2013, 04:32:39 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

The Salafis are having a bad influence on you...
Why can't we open topic about God and discuss what our religion teaches about Him?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 04:33:24 PM by Math lover »

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2013, 04:53:18 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.


naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

The Salafis are having a bad influence on you...
Why can't we open topic about God and discuss what our religion teaches about Him?

Really, I agree with poppy if for all the wrong reasons, most people are just simply ill equipped and prepared to say anything of interest on the subject of theology. It's usually just bad apologetics taken from better sources of it.

If you have to suffer listening to bad apologetics, you might as well go to the source. It's usually a slight less tedious.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2013, 04:55:27 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?
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Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2013, 05:02:53 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #96 on: December 17, 2013, 05:07:56 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.

Obviously, Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three Gods, but only one Godhead. This belief in the Holy Trinity is a Holy Mystery revealed by the Godhead. We see evidence of the gradual teaching of the Holy Trinity in Genesis, when it is written, let us create man in our own image. The plural "us" and "we" indicate that the Godhead is composed of three Divine Persons, yet the Godhead is One God.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2013, 05:08:53 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

No, Islam condemns and prohibits that.

Yet in pre-Islamic times Allah was the supreme deity of Mecca and Arabs considered him the father of all deities, particularly of the goddess named Allat.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 05:10:11 PM by Theophilos78 »
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2013, 05:09:51 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

No, Islam condemns and prohibits that.

Truly, this saddens me.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2013, 05:11:27 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.

Obviously, Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three Gods, but only one Godhead. This belief in the Holy Trinity is a Holy Mystery revealed by the Godhead. We see evidence of the gradual teaching of the Holy Trinity in Genesis, when it is written, let us create man in our own image. The plural "us" and "we" indicate that the Godhead is composed of three Divine Persons, yet the Godhead is One God.

So I am not sure what you doing here, can you explain to me why you refer to God as Father? Cause what you wrote isn't the reason why you are able to.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #100 on: December 17, 2013, 05:13:01 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

No, Islam condemns and prohibits that.

Truly, this saddens me.

Why? According to your own faith they oughtn't refer to God as Father. And it's not condemned or prohibited. My answer is more honest.

I know of at least 20 Muslims who on a regular basis say the Lord's prayer. Their teachers are fine with it.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #101 on: December 17, 2013, 05:15:19 PM »

I know of at least 20 Muslims who on a regular basis say the Lord's prayer. Their teachers are fine with it.

I know at least 150 Muslims who condemn and prohibit it. So what is your point?  ::)
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #102 on: December 17, 2013, 05:16:30 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.

Obviously, Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three Gods, but only one Godhead. This belief in the Holy Trinity is a Holy Mystery revealed by the Godhead. We see evidence of the gradual teaching of the Holy Trinity in Genesis, when it is written, let us create man in our own image. The plural "us" and "we" indicate that the Godhead is composed of three Divine Persons, yet the Godhead is One God.

So I am not sure what you doing here, can you explain to me why you refer to God as Father? Cause what you wrote isn't the reason why you are able to.

Orthodox Christians refer to God as "Father" because we are instructed to do so whenever we pray, especially the Lord's Prayer, which is prayed at all liturgical hours and Holy Services of our Church, including our prayers at home.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #103 on: December 17, 2013, 05:21:38 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.

Obviously, Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three Gods, but only one Godhead. This belief in the Holy Trinity is a Holy Mystery revealed by the Godhead. We see evidence of the gradual teaching of the Holy Trinity in Genesis, when it is written, let us create man in our own image. The plural "us" and "we" indicate that the Godhead is composed of three Divine Persons, yet the Godhead is One God.

So I am not sure what you doing here, can you explain to me why you refer to God as Father? Cause what you wrote isn't the reason why you are able to.

Orthodox Christians refer to God as "Father" because we are instructed to do so whenever we pray, especially the Lord's Prayer, which is prayed at all liturgical hours and Holy Services of our Church, including our prayers at home.

Well that is a sort of a why. Not what I was looking for, but that's OK.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2013, 05:22:51 PM »

Orthodox Christians refer to God as "Father" because we are instructed to do so whenever we pray, especially the Lord's Prayer, which is prayed at all liturgical hours and Holy Services of our Church, including our prayers at home.

Also because God designated Himself as the Father in the Bible. To contrast the Bible with the Qur'an:

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:7-11)

And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings, of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the return (of all). (Surah 5:18)
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2013, 05:30:17 PM »

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.


Because His Son told us to. Sunday School 101.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #106 on: December 17, 2013, 05:48:49 PM »

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.


Because His Son told us to. Sunday School 101.

You gotta move past that. He didn't tell "us" to. He told specific people. And all of "us" aren't those people. In virtue of what can a person dare to call upon the living God in such a manner?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 05:49:01 PM by orthonorm »
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline LBK

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #107 on: December 17, 2013, 05:54:15 PM »

You gotta move past that.

Why? Aren't the words of Christ Himself reason enough to follow Him?  ::)

He didn't tell "us" to. He told specific people. And all of "us" aren't those people.

We are the Church, the Body of Christ, irrespective of time or place, just as the Apostles and their successors were and still are.

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Math lover

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2013, 06:11:49 PM »
Jesus instructed us that when we pray to God, we say "Our Father".  How come Muslims do not pray to Allah as "Father"?

Is "Father" one of the holy names of the Muslim Allah?

I don't think most Christians could say why they pray to God as father.

But according to some of the Muslims I knew and a few were "Islamic educators", speaking of God as father isn't wrong per se, but that shouldn't be something that overly repeated or done. They talked about Mohamed referring to God as a mother in a few hadith or something. But for obvious reasons, if you understand the basics of Islamic thought and its history with Christianity, it has shied away from paternal names or names which would be in anyway anthropomorphic.

Obviously, Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three Gods, but only one Godhead. This belief in the Holy Trinity is a Holy Mystery revealed by the Godhead. We see evidence of the gradual teaching of the Holy Trinity in Genesis, when it is written, let us create man in our own image. The plural "us" and "we" indicate that the Godhead is composed of three Divine Persons, yet the Godhead is One God.

In the Qur'an, God refers to Himself as "We", but it is interpreted as the plural of majesty.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2013, 06:23:43 PM »

In the Qur'an, God refers to Himself as "We", but it is interpreted as the plural of majesty.

Even when the plural of majesty is used in a language, the noun remains in singular form. For instance, the Queen of England once said: "We are a grandmother" (not grandmothers, of course).

Nonetheless, in the Qur'an even the noun gets plural marker when that - supposedly- plural of majesty is used:

And certainly We! We it is Who give life, and cause death and We are the Inheritors. (Surah 15:23)

Unto the Jews did we forbid every [beast] having an [undivided] hoof; and of bullocks and sheep, we forbade them the fat of both; except that which should be on their backs, or their inwards, or which should be intermixed with the bone. This have we rewarded them with, because of their iniquity; and we are surely speakers of truth.  (Surah 6:146)

According to the Qur'an, Allah is plural.
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Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2013, 06:59:59 PM »
... the Queen of England Margaret Thatcher once said: "We are a grandmother"


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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2013, 07:00:36 PM »
... the Queen of England Margaret Thatcher once said: "We are a grandmother"


Same thing.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2013, 07:37:16 PM »
Orthodox Christians refer to God as "Father" because we are instructed to do so whenever we pray, especially the Lord's Prayer, which is prayed at all liturgical hours and Holy Services of our Church, including our prayers at home.

Quote from: The Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. Basil/St. John Chrysostom
And make us worthy, Master, with confidence and without fear of condemnation, to dare call You, the heavenly God, Father, and to say: Our Father...

Quote from: Roman Mass
Admonished by Your saving precepts and following Your divine instruction, we make bold to say: Our Father...

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #113 on: December 17, 2013, 10:49:24 PM »
Orthodox Christians refer to God as "Father" because we are instructed to do so whenever we pray, especially the Lord's Prayer, which is prayed at all liturgical hours and Holy Services of our Church, including our prayers at home.

Quote from: The Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. Basil/St. John Chrysostom
And make us worthy, Master, with confidence and without fear of condemnation, to dare call You, the heavenly God, Father, and to say: Our Father...

Quote from: Roman Mass
Admonished by Your saving precepts and following Your divine instruction, we make bold to say: Our Father...

My favourite is from the Armenian Liturgy:

Quote
O God of truth and Father of mercies, we thank thee who hast exalted our nature, condemned as we were, above that of the blessed patriarchs; for thou wast called God unto them, whereas in pity thou hast been pleased to be named Father unto us.  And now, O Lord, we beseech thee, make the grace of so new and precious a naming of thyself shine forth and flourish day by day in thy holy Church.  And grant us to open our mouths with a cry of bold voice, to call upon thee, O heavenly Father, to sing and say, "Our Father, who art in heaven..."
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #114 on: December 18, 2013, 03:26:24 AM »
Orthonorm,

If Math Lover is right, that Poppy is being taught by Salafis, Salafis have a strict rule against the use of the word "Father".  To Salafi scholars, the word "Father" is blasphemy.

I can accept the fact that the word "Father" is debatable in Islamic theology based on different scholars' thoughts.  The point is when it comes to strictly the "99 names of Allah", not one of them is "Father".  Muslims are encouraged to contemplate on the very name "Allah".  Allah itself, and the Muslims here can correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be the "indescribable essence" of Allah if you will.  That's why Sufis have developed a theological system where the contemplation on the word "Allah" leads to a "mystical experience" with Him.  It's a very interesting tradition, and one that is most prevalent in Turkish history.  "Sufism" is complicated in that one can be "Sunni" and practice Sufism.  Salafis would be quite skeptical of Sufism and consider it close to blasphemy as well.

Within Sunni Islam, we see the makings of separate sects already if anything.  So, I suppose it depends on which sect of Sunni thought you follow, whether one considers the word "Father" acceptable or not.
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