Author Topic: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed  (Read 5188 times)

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Offline Poppy

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Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 05:08:30 PM by Poppy »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2013, 05:21:21 PM »
Is it that these things cannot be investigated, or is it just that they shouldn't be?

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2013, 05:34:11 PM »
Poppy, why are you here?
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2013, 05:35:59 PM »
Is it that these things cannot be investigated, or is it just that they shouldn't be?

I posted should all over the op.

But, can not, must not, should not, will not, would not, all work for me.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2013, 05:37:40 PM »
Poppy, why are you here?

I have been here a long time, before I was reverted. If you actual read my posts you would know the answer to that. I'm not repeating it every time some lazyass asks me.

And it's not like I am interrupting some amazing thread discussions on oc is it? Like really! have you looked at most of the new threads on here? Hardly blow you away uh?
 Poppy,

You should know better than throwing ad hominems on people.  You started this thread a bit "preachy", and being that you're non-Orthodox, what do you expect people to reply?  Perhaps, you should start with, "Can we discuss something that we might agree upon?  What do you think of this statement..."  Then you'll get people's non-suspicions and respect.

Since you have been warned before in the past using ad hominems for 14 days back in 2011, I am going to give you a 30-day warning.

God bless.

Mina
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 08:23:52 PM by minasoliman »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2013, 05:40:44 PM »
Is the following an example of something we cannot/should not discuss?

"Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life."

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2013, 05:45:02 PM »
Is it already Islamic Neophyte Declarative Statement o' clock, or is there a question or point of discussion here that I'm missing? ???

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2013, 05:46:26 PM »
What constitute as 'common things'?
Is it the choice of speech? If so, I don't believe any language on Earth is suited to describe any divine subject without bringing it down to a human level. You can never adequately explain things, perhaps. But it's not blatantly disrespectful, to me.
Or is it the intentions behind the person 'pulling the ideas apart'?
I think humans are inquisitive beings, we're always going to be cynical and sceptical and discuss things as important as our religious beliefs. Whether or not we do this in an apparently flippant fashion isn't important imo, unless our intentions are disrespect. I think that it's a good thing, questioning and discussing things of a divine nature. By trying to contemplate and understand our beliefs more, we can perhaps have a greater conviction in them, even if as humans we are never able to fully understand them.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2013, 05:46:35 PM »
Is the following an example of something we cannot/should not discuss?

"Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life."

That is a fact agreed upon by both of our religions. That All Mighty is the only source and resource who sustains life. Armen.

If the fact is accepted and discussion is from gratitude then sure. I'm talking about between people of faith here, not dawah or something. That's different, but even then there is a line that can't/shouldn't be crossed. You present the facts and then let the person chew on them as they wish. Some things are not up for discussion.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2013, 05:48:36 PM »
Is it already Islamic Neophyte Declarative Statement o' clock, or is there a question or point of discussion here that I'm missing? ???

Yea, you're missing the gene that makes you funny or original.

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2013, 05:54:08 PM »
Is the following an example of something we cannot/should not discuss?

"Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life."

That is a fact agreed upon by both of our religions. That All Mighty is the only source and resource who sustains life. Armen.

If the fact is accepted and discussion is from gratitude then sure. I'm talking about between people of faith here, not dawah or something. That's different, but even then there is a line that can't/shouldn't be crossed. You present the facts and then let the person chew on them as they wish. Some things are not up for discussion.

Poppy, I am praying for your conversion back to Holy Orthodoxy.

Yes, it is true that some of us here are neither respectful of each other nor of the Divine Godhead. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy. Lord have mercy.

I have known some Roman Catholic seminarians who studied metaphysics and in their attempt to understand God, they dissected the Godhead until they began to doubt and then eventually deny His very existence. They and their scholastic teachers are to be pitied, for ultimnately, they will have to face God at the Last Judgment.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 05:55:05 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2013, 05:54:59 PM »
I say this with all possible respect:

If we should just accept "the nature ad attributes of Allah", wouldn't that make us muslims? Therefore, since we are christians, could you even expect us to do anything else than question these things?
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2013, 05:58:25 PM »
What constitute as 'common things'?
Is it the choice of speech? If so, I don't believe any language on Earth is suited to describe any divine subject without bringing it down to a human level. You can never adequately explain things, perhaps. But it's not blatantly disrespectful, to me.
Or is it the intentions behind the person 'pulling the ideas apart'?
I think humans are inquisitive beings, we're always going to be cynical and sceptical and discuss things as important as our religious beliefs. Whether or not we do this in an apparently flippant fashion isn't important imo, unless our intentions are disrespect. I think that it's a good thing, questioning and discussing things of a divine nature. By trying to contemplate and understand our beliefs more, we can perhaps have a greater conviction in them, even if as humans we are never able to fully understand them.

Neither really, although they are both important generally when discussing about The All Mighty.

It's the fact that some things should just be left alone. Either accepted or rejected but left. Kind of like the picture of a baby in the womb, they do not fascinate me or give me joy to see such secrets. They make me want to look away, like I am viewing an image of something All Mighty Allah does not want me to witness or our bellies would have friken windows on them! Even the bible says it is a secret place.

Like the transubstantiation (I know you don't call it that or disagree with that premise but for the sake of another name) if I believed that, I would not even discuss it, as some Orthodox don't, which I total respect.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2013, 06:02:17 PM »
Is the following an example of something we cannot/should not discuss?

"Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life."

That is a fact agreed upon by both of our religions. That All Mighty is the only source and resource who sustains life. Armen.

If the fact is accepted and discussion is from gratitude then sure. I'm talking about between people of faith here, not dawah or something. That's different, but even then there is a line that can't/shouldn't be crossed. You present the facts and then let the person chew on them as they wish. Some things are not up for discussion.

Poppy, I am praying for your conversion back to Holy Orthodoxy.

Yes, it is true that some of us here are neither respectful of each other nor of the Divine Godhead. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy. Lord have mercy.

I have known some Roman Catholic seminarians who studied metaphysics and in their attempt to understand God, they dissected the Godhead until they began to doubt and then eventually deny His very existence. They and their scholastic teachers are to be pitied, for ultimnately, they will have to face God at the Last Judgment.

You make a rli good point!

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2013, 06:05:58 PM »
What constitute as 'common things'?
Is it the choice of speech? If so, I don't believe any language on Earth is suited to describe any divine subject without bringing it down to a human level. You can never adequately explain things, perhaps. But it's not blatantly disrespectful, to me.
Or is it the intentions behind the person 'pulling the ideas apart'?
I think humans are inquisitive beings, we're always going to be cynical and sceptical and discuss things as important as our religious beliefs. Whether or not we do this in an apparently flippant fashion isn't important imo, unless our intentions are disrespect. I think that it's a good thing, questioning and discussing things of a divine nature. By trying to contemplate and understand our beliefs more, we can perhaps have a greater conviction in them, even if as humans we are never able to fully understand them.

Neither really, although they are both important generally when discussing about The All Mighty.

It's the fact that some things should just be left alone. Either accepted or rejected but left. Kind of like the picture of a baby in the womb, they do not fascinate me or give me joy to see such secrets. They make me want to look away, like I am viewing an image of something All Mighty Allah does not want me to witness or our bellies would have friken windows on them! Even the bible says it is a secret place.

Like the transubstantiation (I know you don't call it that or disagree with that premise but for the sake of another name) if I believed that, I would not even discuss it, as some Orthodox don't, which I total respect.

I don't think some things 'should' inherently be left alone... Maybe if you tread into them, the results will be negative, and I think that yes, things such as transubstantiation cannot really be understood. I don't think it's the discussion of the ideas that should not be done, more than you shouldn't make bold conclusions based on what you think you know. Is it harmful to discuss ideas that we can't really understand? Do I consider it somewhat disrespectful to discuss it? Eh... possibly. But that's not what I'm talking about. For example, a lot of people question and pick apart their own beliefs, and then denounce their religion, because they believe they understand. But I think that the negative consequences aren't a result of the discussion of the 'taboo' topic, more that the person thinks they can understand what they cannot. I don't expect us to ever think we can understand many divine topics, and I think it's disrespectful and uncalled for to assume that you do. But I don't see any harm in discussion with respect, or even 'pulling apart' ideas in a more passive way, provided you don't assume you know better than you obviously do.

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2013, 06:08:47 PM »
Poppy, why are you here?

I have been here a long time, before I was reverted. If you actual read my posts you would know the answer to that. I'm not repeating it every time some lazyass asks me.

And it's not like I am interrupting some amazing thread discussions on oc is it? Like really! have you looked at most of the new threads on here? Hardly blow you away uh?

I have read your posts, and you frequently dodge that question, as you have now.  If you would read my replies to your previous posts, you would know that.

And I would appreciate it if you did not insinuate that I was lazy.

I ask again, why are you here?  I have my suspicions, but I would rather hear why you think you are here.

If you're just here to lecture us on how we should do things, bring us to the "straight path," or show off your awesome new Arab terms, then I'll mind my own business and skip your threads.  But I happen to know a good bit about Islam, albeit not the extremely narrow version you have chosen to be exposed to, and I generally find topics you've brought up interesting.  

But if you would like to be defensive and hostile while illuminating us with your wisdom on this Orthodox Christian board, expect some pushback.  
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2013, 06:09:16 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

Can we also discuss Allah's daughter Allat?

Why are you Muslims so misogynist? You worship Allah (the male supreme deity of Meccan polytheism), but deny his daughters. Why is that?  ???
Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem

Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2013, 06:10:54 PM »
Is the following an example of something we cannot/should not discuss?

"Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life."

That is a fact agreed upon by both of our religions. That All Mighty is the only source and resource who sustains life. Armen.

If the fact is accepted and discussion is from gratitude then sure. I'm talking about between people of faith here, not dawah or something. That's different, but even then there is a line that can't/shouldn't be crossed. You present the facts and then let the person chew on them as they wish. Some things are not up for discussion.

Poppy, I am praying for your conversion back to Holy Orthodoxy.

Yes, it is true that some of us here are neither respectful of each other nor of the Divine Godhead. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy. Lord have mercy.

I have known some Roman Catholic seminarians who studied metaphysics and in their attempt to understand God, they dissected the Godhead until they began to doubt and then eventually deny His very existence. They and their scholastic teachers are to be pitied, for ultimnately, they will have to face God at the Last Judgment.

You make a rli good point!

Except that their decision is not a result of their 'dissection', more like a result of their own overestimation of their understanding and reasoning skills.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2013, 06:12:04 PM »
I say this with all possible respect:

If we should just accept "the nature ad attributes of Allah", wouldn't that make us muslims? Therefore, since we are christians, could you even expect us to do anything else than question these things?

I'm not talking about dawah (testifying to another of your religion for the purpose of their conversion). I'm referring to you accepting what your religion teaches and me mine, in the aspects regarding the nature of The All Mighty.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2013, 06:13:05 PM »
Is it already Islamic Neophyte Declarative Statement o' clock, or is there a question or point of discussion here that I'm missing? ???

Yea, you're missing the gene that makes you funny or original.

And you're missing even the minimal amount of smarts it takes to not fall for any hoary old heresies repackaged by an illiterate paedophile and sold to you on the strength of its exotic allure by virtue of it being conveyed in a language you don't understand via a series of conveniently-timed "revelations" from a supposed angel that nobody since has ever been allowed to question.

Nyeh nyeh nyeh.

There are worse things than not being funny, and your "reversion" is a prime example of one.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 06:14:04 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2013, 06:13:36 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

Can we also discuss Allah's daughter Allat?

Why are you Muslims so misogynist? You worship Allah (the male supreme deity of Meccan polytheism), but deny his daughters. Why is that?  ???

Off topic for this thread.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2013, 06:15:56 PM »

Off topic for this thread.

That means it is one of the topics that should not be discussed about Allah.  ;D

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Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2013, 06:18:46 PM »
Is it already Islamic Neophyte Declarative Statement o' clock, or is there a question or point of discussion here that I'm missing? ???

Yea, you're missing the gene that makes you funny or original.

And you're missing even the minimal amount of smarts it takes to not fall for any hoary old heresies repackaged by an illiterate paedophile and sold to you on the strength of its exotic allure by virtue of it being conveyed in a language you don't understand via a series of conveniently-timed "revelations" from a supposed angel that nobody since has ever been allowed to question.

Nyeh nyeh nyeh.

There are worse things than not being funny, and your "reversion" is a prime example of one.

"exotic allure" aka projection, on your part.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 06:19:39 PM by Poppy »

Offline Poppy

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2013, 06:20:23 PM »

Off topic for this thread.

That means it is one of the topics that should not be discussed about Allah.  ;D


Nope. Feel free to start a thread. Just not this one.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2013, 06:22:29 PM »
Nope. Feel free to start a thread. Just not this one.

Then please do us a favour and tell us what this thread is or should be about... You could give a list of the topics that you think should not be discussed about Allah/Hubal..
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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2013, 06:24:06 PM »
Nope. Feel free to start a thread. Just not this one.

Then please do us a favour and tell us what this thread is or should be about... You could give a list of the topics that you think should not be discussed about Allah/Hubal..

Since this would probably be open to opinion, isn't it fair to say that there aren't any subjects that inherently shouldn't be discussed?

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2013, 06:29:31 PM »
Nope. Feel free to start a thread. Just not this one.

Then please do us a favour and tell us what this thread is or should be about... You could give a list of the topics that you think should not be discussed about Allah/Hubal..

To her credit, she has already explained that she didn't mean to refer specifically to Allah. I might be wrong, but I think she made the thread in order to make a point.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2013, 06:29:46 PM »
I remember a conference held in Pakistan on "Things Known to Allah Alone."  The more intelligent asked what they would talk about, seeing that the conference they were holding was on things by definition they knew nothing about.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2013, 06:30:36 PM »

Off topic for this thread.

That means it is one of the topics that should not be discussed about Allah.  ;D



Touche! Well done.
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Offline Mamizous

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2013, 06:31:51 PM »

Off topic for this thread.

That means it is one of the topics that should not be discussed about Allah.  ;D



Touche! Well done.

I did wonder if the original comment was a 'trap' to lure OP into the 'off topic' reply.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2013, 06:33:11 PM »
Is it already Islamic Neophyte Declarative Statement o' clock, or is there a question or point of discussion here that I'm missing? ???

Yea, you're missing the gene that makes you funny or original.

And you're missing even the minimal amount of smarts it takes to not fall for any hoary old heresies repackaged by an illiterate paedophile and sold to you on the strength of its exotic allure by virtue of it being conveyed in a language you don't understand via a series of conveniently-timed "revelations" from a supposed angel that nobody since has ever been allowed to question.

Nyeh nyeh nyeh.

There are worse things than not being funny, and your "reversion" is a prime example of one.

"exotic allure" aka projection, on your part.



Is it? Tells us again what this "SWT" business is all about with reference to your "Allah"...since this thread still has no explicit point...  ::)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2013, 06:37:56 PM »
I remember a conference held in Pakistan on "Things Known to Allah Alone."  The more intelligent asked what they would talk about, seeing that the conference they were holding was on things by definition they knew nothing about.


 :D  :D :D



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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2013, 06:38:45 PM »
I was going to make a thread on some impressions I've gathered from Islam. Seeing jeremy's posts and theos' reminds me why it would be a waste of time.


Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2013, 06:39:05 PM »

To her credit, she has already explained that she didn't mean to refer specifically to Allah.

That means her intentions do not match her actions.  ::)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2013, 06:40:08 PM »
I remember a conference held in Pakistan on "Things Known to Allah Alone."  The more intelligent asked what they would talk about, seeing that the conference they were holding was on things by definition they knew nothing about.


 :D  :D :D

You laugh and show your own ignorance of the history of epistemology or even a speech famously made by Rumsfeld.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2013, 06:42:45 PM »
You laugh and show your own ignorance of the history of epistemology or even a speech famously made by Rumsfeld.

Have mercy on me, an ignorant poster, and enlighten me with your amazing wisdom!  :laugh:
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2013, 06:45:16 PM »

To her credit, she has already explained that she didn't mean to refer specifically to Allah.

That means her intentions do not match her actions.  ::)

I can't say for sure, but even if it is so, is that not a very common phenomenon? I honestly don't think it deserves an eye-rolling. She doesn't seem to have had any ill intentions with making this thread.
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2013, 06:52:01 PM »
I was going to make a thread on some impressions I've gathered from Islam. Seeing jeremy's posts and theos' reminds me why it would be a waste of time.

And to think just a few weeks ago I posted what you yourself wrote should be some kind of template for Islamic-Christian discussion around here. So it's not like I don't know how to do it, by your own admission, but what is to be done with an opening post that is a declarative statement and and a thread poster who writes that other threads are boring, so why not post this Islamic claptrap with no context or purpose whatsoever?

Epistemology, my 'Aas...this thread is about nothing, which is fitting given its opening quotation.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 06:52:57 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2013, 07:16:15 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

Can we also discuss Allah's daughter Allat?

Why are you Muslims so misogynist? You worship Allah (the male supreme deity of Meccan polytheism), but deny his daughters. Why is that?  ???
Why can't Allah have a "daughter"?

Yahweh had a Son.

Oh no, they're the same person.

Huh? ???

(Sorry, the Trinity always been a tough one for me  ;))
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2013, 07:16:42 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

If we merely contemplate at God and His attributes, we treat Him like a concept, not like a God we have a relationship with.  There's a reason why we can recognize attributes in God.
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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2013, 07:20:43 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

If we merely contemplate at God and His attributes, we treat Him like a concept, not like a God we have a relationship with.  There's a reason why we can recognize attributes in God.

Can you not contemplate aspects of religion without treating God like a concept? You could contemplate many 'divine' acts that we cannot understand, but hold faith in. It would not be treating them like concepts, nor God, more trying to make sense of something we inherently can't understand, as is human nature. One can be respectful whilst being curious. Or am I missing your point?

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2013, 07:25:46 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

If we merely contemplate at God and His attributes, we treat Him like a concept, not like a God we have a relationship with.  There's a reason why we can recognize attributes in God.

Can you not contemplate aspects of religion without treating God like a concept? You could contemplate many 'divine' acts that we cannot understand, but hold faith in. It would not be treating them like concepts, nor God, more trying to make sense of something we inherently can't understand, as is human nature. One can be respectful whilst being curious. Or am I missing your point?

Contemplation can get you so far.  Yes, it could help understanding something.  In a way, contemplation can be a form of meditation.  But meditation should turn into prayer, not into an philosophical list of descriptions.

One attribute of God is "the Way".  If I am on "the Way", I become "the Way" for others as well.  Attributes must be a means for a relationship, that I may live in God and God lives in me, and we have communion together.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 07:26:04 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2013, 07:26:00 PM »
Maybe the key there is the "merely" part, Mamizous, so that we don't get hung up on seeing Him as a disembodied set of attributes (cf. the Islamic doxology that starts out the chapters of their Qur'an, or their practice of meditating upon Allah's 99 names, which are largely attributive).

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2013, 07:35:24 PM »
I don't care enough and don't know enough about Islam to comment on this although most Muslim I met were really decent fellows. I'll just comment on the exoticism snide comment which is rich coming from someone that joined the Copts in California. Come on now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

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Re: Some topics about Allah (swt) should not be pulled apart and discussed
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2013, 07:40:18 PM »
Peace and blessings of Allah (swt) to all who are on the straight path.

Such as the nature and attributes of All Mighty Allah. They should just be accepted and thought upon with a lot of contemplation and gratitude. Not pulled apart and examined in the same way that people talk about common things.

Remember it is All Mighty The One Who Is Our Only Source of Everything In Life.

Sometimes people discuss things too flippant and common.

naouzobilah mn zalik (may Mighty Allah save us from doing that!)

If we merely contemplate at God and His attributes, we treat Him like a concept, not like a God we have a relationship with.  There's a reason why we can recognize attributes in God.

Can you not contemplate aspects of religion without treating God like a concept? You could contemplate many 'divine' acts that we cannot understand, but hold faith in. It would not be treating them like concepts, nor God, more trying to make sense of something we inherently can't understand, as is human nature. One can be respectful whilst being curious. Or am I missing your point?

Contemplation can get you so far.  Yes, it could help understanding something.  In a way, contemplation can be a form of meditation.  But meditation should turn into prayer, not into an philosophical list of descriptions.

One attribute of God is "the Way".  If I am on "the Way", I become "the Way" for others as well.  Attributes must be a means for a relationship, that I may live in God and God lives in me, and we have communion together.

What it should turn into and what it actually turns into is an issue of the person, not of the act of contemplation, hmm?
Attributes in terms of God can never be truly understood through contemplation, but it's not that they shouldn't be, just that we lack the ability to understand them, because it's so far removed from what we see in human beings and other worldly contingent objects. It's not that we relish in comparing God to humans, more that we can't even begin to imagine or understand the attributes of God, let alone try to theorise the 'mechanics' behind them perfectly. Even use of human terms that seek to explain attributes of God are surely just to convey said attributes to us on a human level, and are an accurate way to convey such ideas, but I don't believe they are adequate, they just 'are'. Can contemplation of attributes of God, be considered perhaps disrespectful, or wrong in some way? I do not think so, unless the intentions are ill, and so long as we understand that we can never truly understand them. What we do with the contemplation, as you said, is indeed the important thing.
I do believe that those who denounce their faith due to contemplation of the idea of God Himself, are doing so because they treat God as a concept. This is because they see Him as one possibility in a long list of separate ideas, due to their own ignorance and misled sense of reasoning. But as I said, the problem is with the person, not the act of contemplation.