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Offline ThePapist

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Curious Catholic
« on: December 13, 2013, 06:54:15 PM »
Hello,

I have recently been very interested in Orthodoxy. My journey from Protestantism led me a while ago to Catholicism which I believed to be the true Church established by Jesus Christ. Now as a Catholic, I feel that maybe I should check out Orthodoxy or eastern Catholicism to see if the Orthodox Church may be the true church established by Christ and from which the other schismed in 1054.

I understand the orthodox belief on the Filioque and am starting to doubt Catholic teaching on it but I'm not sure.

I know a major thing with Orthodoxy is that the bishops are equal and there is no Pope or Papacy over all the bishops. I am curious as to why this is when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.

Are there any converts to Orthodoxy from Catholicism on here that would like to tell me your journey or why you converted?

I feel really drawn in by the Orthodox spirituality and the eastern almost mysticism that goes along with it. I love the recitation of the Jesus prayer and carry a prayer rope in my pocket to always pray it in English, Greek, or Latin along with my rosary. I have also started reading some of The Way of the Pilgrim which has drawn me even closer to Orthodox spirituality.

I am really curious to about hesychasm in prayer and how to obtain this and what it entails seems fascinating to me.

If anyone has any advice on where to start studying or maybe some spiritual exercises to adopt or anything, it will be well appreciated. And, don't hold back any of your feelings toward Catholicism, I can handle it!  ;D

God bless!

Offline Agabus

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 07:43:01 PM »
Hello,

I have recently been very interested in Orthodoxy. My journey from Protestantism led me a while ago to Catholicism which I believed to be the true Church established by Jesus Christ. Now as a Catholic, I feel that maybe I should check out Orthodoxy or eastern Catholicism to see if the Orthodox Church may be the true church established by Christ and from which the other schismed in 1054.
As you'll see discussed here often, it's not quite that simple, but suffice to say that's one of the major dates.

Quote
I know a major thing with Orthodoxy is that the bishops are equal and there is no Pope or Papacy over all the bishops. I am curious as to why this is when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.
One could argue the opposite. I never found Catholic apologetic very convincing in that regard.

On a related note, though all bishops are theoretically equal, for purposes of living in the real world some bishops are more equal than others.

Re: hesychasm, and etc., that's the kind of thing that you need to talk to someone in real life who can assess who you are, where you are before giving you guidance on it. I can think of  posters here who decided they were hesychasts only to go down a dark road later.
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Offline NotAnHourGoesBy

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 08:04:41 PM »
I'm not an actual Catholic, but when I considered between the RCC and OC, I swayed to the RCC side. 

What I don't understand is why God won't just say, "Be Catholic" or "Be Orthodox".

Both Churches have wonder-working saints and holy people and the sacraments and traditions.

How can wicked sinners make a conscious decision?

Maybe both sides have things to learn from each other...
[Curious Protestant inspired by saints of the Apostolic Church(es) {St. Mary of Egypt, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Francis of Assisi --- am I a double heretic?}. Can't decide between RCC or OC..leaning towards the latter at the moment...]

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 08:08:51 PM »
 
What I don't understand is why God won't just say, "Be Catholic" or "Be Orthodox".

God did say it, just maybe not to you. ;)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 08:09:18 PM by Jetavan »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 08:59:56 PM »
Hello,

I have recently been very interested in Orthodoxy. My journey from Protestantism led me a while ago to Catholicism which I believed to be the true Church established by Jesus Christ. Now as a Catholic, I feel that maybe I should check out Orthodoxy or eastern Catholicism to see if the Orthodox Church may be the true church established by Christ and from which the other schismed in 1054.

I understand the orthodox belief on the Filioque and am starting to doubt Catholic teaching on it but I'm not sure.

I know a major thing with Orthodoxy is that the bishops are equal and there is no Pope or Papacy over all the bishops. I am curious as to why this is when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.
Rather odd that the Vatican's proof text on that comes not from the Gospel associated with Rome (Mark), but from the Gospel associated with Antioch (Matthew).  He whom He calls "Peter" He calls "Satan" a few verses thereafter, and if it was so clear that St. Peter was named "visible head" it is odd that a little further down the same disciples who were with Him at Caesarea Philippi are arguing amongst themselves who was the greatest of the Apostles.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2013, 10:00:59 PM »
I'm not an actual Catholic, but when I considered between the RCC and OC, I swayed to the RCC side. 

What I don't understand is why God won't just say, "Be Catholic" or "Be Orthodox".

Both Churches have wonder-working saints and holy people and the sacraments and traditions.

How can wicked sinners make a conscious decision?

Maybe both sides have things to learn from each other...

I struggled with these thoughts before I converted. Ultimately, you have to put your faith in God and believe that He is leading you to the right place. If you feel an undeniable pull to Orthodoxy, that just might be where you belong.

Offline Thankful

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2013, 02:35:03 AM »
I know a major thing with Orthodoxy is that the bishops are equal and there is no Pope or Papacy over all the bishops. I am curious as to why this is when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.

I'm not a former Catholic but wanted to touch on this -- as a Catholic you must know that some things predate the Bible, yes?  Rather than ask "Is this in the Bible?" we ask, "How did the early church live this out?" And if you ask and answer that question, you might find that the earliest church was what we now know as Orthodox.  The Bible can't contradict what the early church was doing, and the early church wasn't functioning under one supreme head of the church / vicar of Christ. At the church councils, the Bishop of Rome did not rule/preside. He had one vote just like all the other bishops.  In the Bible, James presided over the council in Jerusalem, not Peter. He also said, "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us," not "to me" (or Peter).  The church was "run" by a plurality of bishops, not just St. Peter. 

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2013, 04:31:00 AM »
I'm not an actual Catholic, but when I considered between the RCC and OC, I swayed to the RCC side.  

What I don't understand is why God won't just say, "Be Catholic" or "Be Orthodox".

Both Churches have wonder-working saints and holy people and the sacraments and traditions.

How can wicked sinners make a conscious decision?

Maybe both sides have things to learn from each other...

I struggled with these thoughts before I converted. Ultimately, you have to put your faith in God and believe that He is leading you to the right place. If you feel an undeniable pull to Orthodoxy, that just might be where you belong.

My criterion are based on the Fathers. Irenaeus said: "Should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches, wherein the succession of the presbyters has been set up and the tradition has been maintained?" The quote isn't verbatim, but it's what I look for. The most ancient Churches where the tradition has been faithfully maintained.

I am more aligned with Orthodoxy than Catholicism on this basis. The only thing that would get me to be RC at this point, would be a very convincing explanation of Papal supremacy.

And having read many apologetics on the Papacy, I don't see that happening. But, who knows?

Quote
when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.
Oh, this claim again. The problems I have with this claim is

1) 'The Pope' didn't exist until the third century, he was the Bishop of Alexandria, not the Bishop of Rome. 'Pope' was simply a title.

2) Christ establishing His Church on Peter's Faith (which the Orthodox Church would see as 'the Orthodox Faith') is what the majority of the Church Fathers testify to as to Matthew 16:18's interpretation. Including St. Augustine. (See For Example)

and 3) St. Peter was Bishop of Antioch before he was Bishop of Rome, why should I accept Rome's claim that it's Bishop is the sole successor to St. Peter, when that's historically untrue? Why chose Rome over Antioch?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 04:46:53 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
"Your children shall become the head, but you... will become the tail of the Church; therefore your judges will be those who have always preserved the Catholic Faith... they will be the Orthodox and true Catholics since they have never accepted heretics... but have remained zealous for the True Faith." (Western Bishops' Response to Pope Vigilius)

Offline Sam G

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 08:25:21 PM »
Read the dogmatic claims of Vatican one then search the writings of the Church Fathers.  Ask yourself: Does the later reflect what is asserted in the former? 

Or you can save time and check out this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_opposition_to_papal_supremacy

Really take the time to consider the arguments presented and check the citations for yourself. 

Also with regards to the understanding of of Matthew 16:18: http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/fathersmt16.html

The above link (although from an evangelical protestant website) is the definitive list of the Church Father's commentary on Matthew 16:18.  Take time and examine each quote, and if you feel the need to, check it against another translation of the work.  You can't rush the search for truth.     
 
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 11:15:37 AM »
Hello,

I have recently been very interested in Orthodoxy. My journey from Protestantism led me a while ago to Catholicism which I believed to be the true Church established by Jesus Christ. Now as a Catholic, I feel that maybe I should check out Orthodoxy or eastern Catholicism to see if the Orthodox Church may be the true church established by Christ and from which the other schismed in 1054.

I understand the orthodox belief on the Filioque and am starting to doubt Catholic teaching on it but I'm not sure.

I know a major thing with Orthodoxy is that the bishops are equal and there is no Pope or Papacy over all the bishops. I am curious as to why this is when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.
Rather odd that the Vatican's proof text on that comes not from the Gospel associated with Rome (Mark), but from the Gospel associated with Antioch (Matthew).  He whom He calls "Peter" He calls "Satan" a few verses thereafter, and if it was so clear that St. Peter was named "visible head" it is odd that a little further down the same disciples who were with Him at Caesarea Philippi are arguing amongst themselves who was the greatest of the Apostles.

I always wondered why, even if Christ did establish St. Peter as the head (which I think is an improper interpretation of the Scripture), why the Patriarch of Antioch is not then the head of the Church, since St. Peter was (IIRC) the first Bishop of Antioch?
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2014, 01:50:13 PM »
I'm not an actual Catholic, but when I considered between the RCC and OC, I swayed to the RCC side.  

What I don't understand is why God won't just say, "Be Catholic" or "Be Orthodox".

Both Churches have wonder-working saints and holy people and the sacraments and traditions.

How can wicked sinners make a conscious decision?

Maybe both sides have things to learn from each other...

I struggled with these thoughts before I converted. Ultimately, you have to put your faith in God and believe that He is leading you to the right place. If you feel an undeniable pull to Orthodoxy, that just might be where you belong.

My criterion are based on the Fathers. Irenaeus said: "Should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches, wherein the succession of the presbyters has been set up and the tradition has been maintained?" The quote isn't verbatim, but it's what I look for. The most ancient Churches where the tradition has been faithfully maintained.

I am more aligned with Orthodoxy than Catholicism on this basis. The only thing that would get me to be RC at this point, would be a very convincing explanation of Papal supremacy.

And having read many apologetics on the Papacy, I don't see that happening. But, who knows?

Quote
when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.
Oh, this claim again. The problems I have with this claim is

1) 'The Pope' didn't exist until the third century, he was the Bishop of Alexandria, not the Bishop of Rome. 'Pope' was simply a title.

2) Christ establishing His Church on Peter's Faith (which the Orthodox Church would see as 'the Orthodox Faith') is what the majority of the Church Fathers testify to as to Matthew 16:18's interpretation. Including St. Augustine. (See For Example)

and 3) St. Peter was Bishop of Antioch before he was Bishop of Rome, why should I accept Rome's claim that it's Bishop is the sole successor to St. Peter, when that's historically untrue? Why chose Rome over Antioch?

Pope St. Gregory the Great taught that there were 3 Churches with a claim to share in the Petrine legacy, Rome, Antioch and Alexandria because St. Peter sent St. Mark to Alexandria. The idea of the Bishop of Rome being the only successor to St. Peter with  universal jurisdiction, authority above that of an Ecumenical Council, as well as the right to make doctrinal proclamations binding on the whole Church came much later. These papal claims to such authority did not come from the Bible, the decisions of the 7  Ecumenical Councils, the consensus of the Fathers or any other legitimate authoritative source. The claims of the Popes were developed from a  document called the Donation of Constantine, which claims that Constantine gave all authority over the Church to the Bishop of Rome. Lorenzo Valla showed that the document was forged during the Renaissance. Even if the document was not a forgery, one might ask what gave Constantine the authority to decide who should have ultimate authority in the Church?
Despite Roman claims it is quite clear that the Popes had nothing like the authority they now have over the Roman Catholic Church in the days before 1054. In fact canon VI of the 1st Ecumenical Council limits the authority of the Bishop of Rome to the West and affirms to independence (autocephaly) of Alexandria and Antioch. When Pope St. Leo objected to the Council of Ephesus of 449, he had no power to overrule its exoneration of the heretic Eutyches, but instead had to appeal for another council, the Council of Chalcedon of 451 to overrule the council of 449. The 5th Ecumenical Council, Constantinople II in 553 threatened to excommunicate and remove Pope Vigilius from office until he accepted its decrees. The 6 Ecumenical Council, Constantinople III in 680 did not hesitate to condemn Pope Honorius I for heresy. Finally, when Pope Nicholas I objected to the removal of Patriarch Ignatius and his replacement on the throne of Constantinople by St. Photius, he lacked the authority to act, but had to appeal to a council, the Council of Constantinople of 869 to reinstate Patriarch Ignatius and remove St. Photius. Significantly at that council, the papal legates claimed that the Pope had the authority to issue doctrinal decrees binding on the whole Church. Even Patriarch Ignatius who owed his reinstatement to Pope Nicholas rejected this claim as did the rest of the Eastern Bishops who told the papal legates that only agreement of all 5 Patriarchs had that kind of authority. Thus, from these few examples, it is apparent that the Bishops of Rome had neither universal jurisdiction nor authority greater than than of an Ecumenical Council. Instead, they simply held a primacy of honor much like that held by the Ecumenical Patriarch today.

Fr, John W. Morris

Offline gueranger

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2014, 02:30:32 PM »
Hello,

I have recently been very interested in Orthodoxy. My journey from Protestantism led me a while ago to Catholicism which I believed to be the true Church established by Jesus Christ. Now as a Catholic, I feel that maybe I should check out Orthodoxy or eastern Catholicism to see if the Orthodox Church may be the true church established by Christ and from which the other schismed in 1054.

I understand the orthodox belief on the Filioque and am starting to doubt Catholic teaching on it but I'm not sure.

I know a major thing with Orthodoxy is that the bishops are equal and there is no Pope or Papacy over all the bishops. I am curious as to why this is when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.

Are there any converts to Orthodoxy from Catholicism on here that would like to tell me your journey or why you converted?

I feel really drawn in by the Orthodox spirituality and the eastern almost mysticism that goes along with it. I love the recitation of the Jesus prayer and carry a prayer rope in my pocket to always pray it in English, Greek, or Latin along with my rosary. I have also started reading some of The Way of the Pilgrim which has drawn me even closer to Orthodox spirituality.

I am really curious to about hesychasm in prayer and how to obtain this and what it entails seems fascinating to me.

If anyone has any advice on where to start studying or maybe some spiritual exercises to adopt or anything, it will be well appreciated. And, don't hold back any of your feelings toward Catholicism, I can handle it!  ;D

God bless!

I was a Catholic a year ago, now I'm converting to Orthodoxy. You can save yourself a lot of headaches by reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 02:31:32 PM by gueranger »

Offline Papist

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2014, 02:58:09 PM »
Hello,

I have recently been very interested in Orthodoxy. My journey from Protestantism led me a while ago to Catholicism which I believed to be the true Church established by Jesus Christ. Now as a Catholic, I feel that maybe I should check out Orthodoxy or eastern Catholicism to see if the Orthodox Church may be the true church established by Christ and from which the other schismed in 1054.

I understand the orthodox belief on the Filioque and am starting to doubt Catholic teaching on it but I'm not sure.

I know a major thing with Orthodoxy is that the bishops are equal and there is no Pope or Papacy over all the bishops. I am curious as to why this is when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.

Are there any converts to Orthodoxy from Catholicism on here that would like to tell me your journey or why you converted?

I feel really drawn in by the Orthodox spirituality and the eastern almost mysticism that goes along with it. I love the recitation of the Jesus prayer and carry a prayer rope in my pocket to always pray it in English, Greek, or Latin along with my rosary. I have also started reading some of The Way of the Pilgrim which has drawn me even closer to Orthodox spirituality.

I am really curious to about hesychasm in prayer and how to obtain this and what it entails seems fascinating to me.

If anyone has any advice on where to start studying or maybe some spiritual exercises to adopt or anything, it will be well appreciated. And, don't hold back any of your feelings toward Catholicism, I can handle it!  ;D

God bless!

I was a Catholic a year ago, now I'm converting to Orthodoxy. You can save yourself a lot of headaches by reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

Wow. Quite a disparity between the cost on Kindle and the cost in print.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2014, 03:09:09 PM »
Hello,

I have recently been very interested in Orthodoxy. My journey from Protestantism led me a while ago to Catholicism which I believed to be the true Church established by Jesus Christ. Now as a Catholic, I feel that maybe I should check out Orthodoxy or eastern Catholicism to see if the Orthodox Church may be the true church established by Christ and from which the other schismed in 1054.

I understand the orthodox belief on the Filioque and am starting to doubt Catholic teaching on it but I'm not sure.

I know a major thing with Orthodoxy is that the bishops are equal and there is no Pope or Papacy over all the bishops. I am curious as to why this is when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.

Are there any converts to Orthodoxy from Catholicism on here that would like to tell me your journey or why you converted?

I feel really drawn in by the Orthodox spirituality and the eastern almost mysticism that goes along with it. I love the recitation of the Jesus prayer and carry a prayer rope in my pocket to always pray it in English, Greek, or Latin along with my rosary. I have also started reading some of The Way of the Pilgrim which has drawn me even closer to Orthodox spirituality.

I am really curious to about hesychasm in prayer and how to obtain this and what it entails seems fascinating to me.

If anyone has any advice on where to start studying or maybe some spiritual exercises to adopt or anything, it will be well appreciated. And, don't hold back any of your feelings toward Catholicism, I can handle it!  ;D

God bless!

I was a Catholic a year ago, now I'm converting to Orthodoxy. You can save yourself a lot of headaches by reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

Wow. Quite a disparity between the cost on Kindle and the cost in print.

You don't even have to buy. The man who wrote that book also runs a website which has answers to Catholic objections.
"Your children shall become the head, but you... will become the tail of the Church; therefore your judges will be those who have always preserved the Catholic Faith... they will be the Orthodox and true Catholics since they have never accepted heretics... but have remained zealous for the True Faith." (Western Bishops' Response to Pope Vigilius)

Offline Papist

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Re: Curious Catholic
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2014, 03:13:45 PM »
Hello,

I have recently been very interested in Orthodoxy. My journey from Protestantism led me a while ago to Catholicism which I believed to be the true Church established by Jesus Christ. Now as a Catholic, I feel that maybe I should check out Orthodoxy or eastern Catholicism to see if the Orthodox Church may be the true church established by Christ and from which the other schismed in 1054.

I understand the orthodox belief on the Filioque and am starting to doubt Catholic teaching on it but I'm not sure.

I know a major thing with Orthodoxy is that the bishops are equal and there is no Pope or Papacy over all the bishops. I am curious as to why this is when it is pretty biblical as to how Christ established the Church on Pope St. Peter.

Are there any converts to Orthodoxy from Catholicism on here that would like to tell me your journey or why you converted?

I feel really drawn in by the Orthodox spirituality and the eastern almost mysticism that goes along with it. I love the recitation of the Jesus prayer and carry a prayer rope in my pocket to always pray it in English, Greek, or Latin along with my rosary. I have also started reading some of The Way of the Pilgrim which has drawn me even closer to Orthodox spirituality.

I am really curious to about hesychasm in prayer and how to obtain this and what it entails seems fascinating to me.

If anyone has any advice on where to start studying or maybe some spiritual exercises to adopt or anything, it will be well appreciated. And, don't hold back any of your feelings toward Catholicism, I can handle it!  ;D

God bless!

I was a Catholic a year ago, now I'm converting to Orthodoxy. You can save yourself a lot of headaches by reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

Wow. Quite a disparity between the cost on Kindle and the cost in print.

You don't even have to buy. The man who wrote that book also runs a website which has answers to Catholic objections.
Orthodox Answers  :D
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.