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Author Topic: ex-Protestant, thought Catholicism was right, now so unsure and scared  (Read 1521 times) Average Rating: 0
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NotAnHourGoesBy
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« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2013, 03:56:46 PM »

Someone made an analogy that the deposit of faith is like a treasure chest.  Everything was given and contained in that chest, but it takes time to go through and discover all that is within.  Some things being revealed later in history....for reasons that we won't know I guess...
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« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2013, 04:23:53 PM »

Someone made an analogy that the deposit of faith is like a treasure chest.  Everything was given and contained in that chest, but it takes time to go through and discover all that is within.  Some things being revealed later in history....for reasons that we won't know I guess...

The Orthodox would again disagree. The Deposit is fully given. It's only fully understood when people are inside the Church, and being sanctified by God. There isn't anything more to discover.
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« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2013, 04:25:07 PM »

Someone made an analogy that the deposit of faith is like a treasure chest.  Everything was given and contained in that chest, but it takes time to go through and discover all that is within.  Some things being revealed later in history....for reasons that we won't know I guess...

The Orthodox would again disagree. The Deposit is fully given. It's only fully understood when people are inside the Church, and being sanctified by God. There isn't anything more to discover.

Exactly, there are no new dogmas. Councils are held to expose heresies and to clarify existing doctrines so that people will not fall into heresies.
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« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2013, 04:26:03 PM »

Catholic means the unchanging Faith once delivered by Christ to His Apostles for all times, all peoples, and all places. This is the Holy Faith of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2013, 04:46:33 PM »

Catholic means the unchanging Faith once delivered by Christ to His Apostles for all times, all peoples, and all places. This is the Holy Faith of the Orthodox Church.

Relevant quotes:

Quote from: Didache 4:18
but thou shalt keep those things which thou hast received, neither adding to them nor taking away from them.

Quote from: 2 Thessalonians 3:6
withdraw yourselves from every brother who walketh disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

Quote from: St. Gregory Nazianzen
We have not added, and we could not add, anything to the faith which the holy Fathers put forth; but we hold and will hold that same identical faith.

Quote from: St. Leo the Great
A great safeguard is the entire faith, the true faith, in which neither anything whatever can be added by anyone nor anything taken away; for, unless faith be one, it is not the faith.

Quote from: St. Basil the Great
Dogmas of faith cannot be altered a single jot or tittle.

Quote from: St. Vincent of Lerins
It never was, is, or shall be lawful for Catholic Christians to teach any doctrine except that which they have received once and for all time; Moreover, in the Church itself, every possible care must be taken to hold fast to that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, and by everyone. For that is truly and in the strictest sense "Catholic" which comprehends all universality... It is therefore an indispensable obligation for all Catholics who are eager to prove that they are true sons of Holy Mother the Church to adhere to the holy faith of the Fathers, to preserve it, to die for it... But the Church of Christ, the careful and watchful guardian of the doctrines deposited in her charge, never changes anything in them, never diminishes, never adds, does not cut off what is necessary, does not add what is superfluous, does not lose her own, does not appropriate what is another's.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons and St. Hilary of Poitiers say similar things, but I cannot find the exact quote.
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« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2013, 04:58:12 PM »

Catholic means the unchanging Faith once delivered by Christ to His Apostles for all times, all peoples, and all places. This is the Holy Faith of the Orthodox Church.

That's not what Greek says.
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« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2013, 06:09:03 PM »

yes, my advice is, look at this pic of my etnarch, his Beatitude Teoctist! Ain't he so cute?
augustin, the Convert Issues board is not the place for this satirical banter you like to post on OCnet. Please take it elsewhere.
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« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2013, 07:36:07 PM »

Wouldn't the idea of "development of doctrine" be a development itself, as it was only espoused later by Rome? It seems like there's some kind of question-begging in there somewhere.
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« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2013, 07:50:45 PM »

Catholic means the unchanging Faith once delivered by Christ to His Apostles for all times, all peoples, and all places. This is the Holy Faith of the Orthodox Church.

That's not what Greek says.

Different Orthodox traditions believe in different core principles?

How are you Orthodox ("Catholic") but multiple Churches interpret different things?
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« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2013, 07:53:28 PM »

I also read Catholic fora, and their pro-Rome arguments seem just as valid.

I guess the main point is, What's wrong with doctrinal development if Jesus Himself said He did not tell the Apostles everything He wanted to tell before ascending into heaven, and that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth?

Maybe humankind was not ready for certain beliefs....?

You said it very well yourself my brother NotAnHourGoesBy, he would led them, not him (Peter) into all truth. Look historically and through the new testament church if Jesus really meant that, and ask yourself if the Pope could be put in the same process of consolation as the apostles were in.
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« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2013, 07:55:23 PM »

Catholic means the unchanging Faith once delivered by Christ to His Apostles for all times, all peoples, and all places. This is the Holy Faith of the Orthodox Church.

That's not what Greek says.

Different Orthodox traditions believe in different core principles?

How are you Orthodox ("Catholic") but multiple Churches interpret different things?

I mean word "catholic" has different meaning that Maria is saying.
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« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2013, 07:59:39 PM »

I also read Catholic fora, and their pro-Rome arguments seem just as valid.

I guess the main point is, What's wrong with doctrinal development if Jesus Himself said He did not tell the Apostles everything He wanted to tell before ascending into heaven, and that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth?

Maybe humankind was not ready for certain beliefs....?

You said it very well yourself my brother NotAnHourGoesBy, he would led them, not him (Peter) into all truth. Look historically and through the new testament church if Jesus really meant that, and ask yourself if the Pope could be put in the same process of consolation as the apostles were in.

But didn't Peter have a unique role?  *Some* sort of primacy.  What exactly has the Roman Church stated that is *against* the faith?  Not just what is perceived to be an "innovation" but actually against the faith.
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« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2013, 08:01:22 PM »


Quote
Different Orthodox traditions believe in different core principles?

How are you Orthodox ("Catholic") but multiple Churches interpret different things?


The word Catholic in greek derives from katholikos, meaning universal. Any religion which claim that it is for the entire earth can therefore by definition be called a catholic one. The problem is not within the term catholic, but rather what it is that the church universally is preaching for faith. So to be united in the Orthodox, Catholic and Apostolic church during the first millennium would be such a richer faith than joining the Catholic church in 1054. So no church has patent on the term catholic, but rather on what faith that is catholic etc.
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« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2013, 08:02:54 PM »

Quote
But didn't Peter have a unique role?

Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to all of His apostles, not just to Peter.
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« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2013, 08:06:44 PM »

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But didn't Peter have a unique role?

Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to all of His apostles, not just to Peter.

The Catholics would say Peter was given the role of the steward of the kingdom.  and there was only one steward.
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« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2013, 08:08:31 PM »

Quote
But didn't Peter have a unique role?

Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to all of His apostles, not just to Peter.

The Catholics would say Peter was given the role of the steward of the kingdom.  and there was only one steward.

Steward does not mean overlord.
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« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2013, 08:11:44 PM »

I also read Catholic fora, and their pro-Rome arguments seem just as valid.

I guess the main point is, What's wrong with doctrinal development if Jesus Himself said He did not tell the Apostles everything He wanted to tell before ascending into heaven, and that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth?

Maybe humankind was not ready for certain beliefs....?

You said it very well yourself my brother NotAnHourGoesBy, he would led them, not him (Peter) into all truth. Look historically and through the new testament church if Jesus really meant that, and ask yourself if the Pope could be put in the same process of consolation as the apostles were in.

But didn't Peter have a unique role?  *Some* sort of primacy.  What exactly has the Roman Church stated that is *against* the faith?  Not just what is perceived to be an "innovation" but actually against the faith.

Of course he had a unique role, as we assume every other apostle had. John the Theologian, known through nearly every church tradition as the apostle of love, is he the only one now having primacy on that role? A very good tip of advice to start looking at if you´re really searching for the true church.

Look into the Orthodox church before 1054 and after 1054, through Councils, large gatherings of bishops, and see for yourself how much of the faith which was either "clarified, modified or updated" either before, during and after the schism.

The result will be much the same, the schism didn´t affect that much, but only administrative questions. Things were already intact in the faith.

Then look at the Catholic church before 1054 and after 1054, through Councils, large gatherings of bishops, and see for yourself how much of the faith which was either "clarified, modified or updated" either before, during and after the schism.

The result will most definitely not be the same, for some reason after the schism. Things were needed to be taken seriously once again, as if Christ really planned Pentecost in the year 1054.
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« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2013, 08:13:36 PM »

Quote
But didn't Peter have a unique role?

Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to all of His apostles, not just to Peter.

The Catholics would say Peter was given the role of the steward of the kingdom.  and there was only one steward.

Steward does not mean overlord.

I don't suppose forgive and forget would ever happen......

Doesn't it just seem logical that Jesus would want the body of believers to be under one figure who shepherds the flock like Him?
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« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2013, 08:15:15 PM »

History need to speak for itself in this case, if someone wants to believe the the Holy Spirit didn´t guide the church into all truth until 1054, they are more than welcome.

Pray for me and forgive me
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« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2013, 08:16:16 PM »

How much did the Catholic Church dogmas contradict the deposit of faith?  Innovation does not necessarily mean going against what was believed and passed down.  It could just be declaration or clarification....
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« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2013, 08:17:48 PM »

Quote
I don't suppose forgive and forget would ever happen......

Doesn't it just seem logical that Jesus would want the body of believers to be under one figure who shepherds the flock like Him?


It seem more logical to both of us, as we have already discussed a bit my friend. That the Holy Spirit will be the one figure guiding the church into all truth. I rather put my trust to a community shepherding the flock by the Spirit than one man. That idea seems much more deeper, wiser and secure.
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« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2013, 08:21:34 PM »



I don't suppose forgive and forget would ever happen......

Doesn't it just seem logical that Jesus would want the body of believers to be under one figure who shepherds the flock like Him?
Quote
It seem more logical to both of us, as we have already discussed a bit my friend. That the Holy Spirit will be the one figure guiding the church into all truth.

Why are there saints, miracles, and holy people in both Churches?

I'm too ignorant about spiritual matters to dissect what is true, important, and relevant.  The miracles and wonder-workings of the Churches point to the presence of God in both of them.

Also, apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary/Theotokos/Panagia.
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« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2013, 08:31:24 PM »

No, innovation is only bad when it comes at a time where you suspect your faith to already be intact. Look into what was believed/passed in the first millennium. See if that faith was already declared, clarified and accepted throughout the entire church, by the entire church. Through a process which was totally accepted in 7 ecumenical councils.
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« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2013, 08:32:33 PM »

Why are there saints, miracles, and holy people in both Churches?

Because the Holy Spirit may work as He wills. He is not bound by jurisdiction, nor by any communion's ecclesiology.

Quote
I'm too ignorant about spiritual matters to dissect what is true, important, and relevant.  The miracles and wonder-workings of the Churches point to the presence of God in both of them.

Maybe for Roman Catholics who are so inclined, but Orthodox are not supposed to search after nor place faith in miracles. A faith based on miracles is a weak and immature faith.

Quote
Also, apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary/Theotokos/Panagia.

Not all of which are treated the same. To be blunt, just because someone somewhere claims to have seen the Theotokos somewhere doesn't mean that they actually did, and certainly does not say anything for whatever may follow from that supposed sighting. I'm pretty sure that's even in line with the Vatican's current stance, which (IIRC) is that no Catholic need believe in any particular apparition in order to be considered Catholic (though of course reality on the ground may differ). In fact, couldn't it be said that the appearance of "the Blessed Virgin" to all these churches of differing belief lessens the supposed confirmation that any one apparition is supposed to lend to any one faith? After all, she appeared at Zeitoun just as surely (in fact, more surely) as she did at Lourdes or Fatima, so what is this even supposed to mean -- was the Catholic Church the true church in 1917, but the Coptic Orthodox Church the true Church in 1968? It doesn't mean anything; or rather, it means what it means for the people who believe it, but nothing necessarily about the "truth" of a given church. God is not a magician.
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« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2013, 08:32:43 PM »

Catholic means the unchanging Faith once delivered by Christ to His Apostles for all times, all peoples, and all places. This is the Holy Faith of the Orthodox Church.

That's not what Greek says.

Different Orthodox traditions believe in different core principles?

How are you Orthodox ("Catholic") but multiple Churches interpret different things?

I mean word "catholic" has different meaning that Maria is saying.

Of course, I do not rely on what Webster's says, but on what the living tradition of our Holy Church says.

When I was a catechumen in the Greek Orthodox Church (GOARCH), this is the meaning of "Catholic" that our priests taught us.

BTW, Mike, Webster's and Merriam were not around in 33 AD.
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« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2013, 08:35:30 PM »

Quote
I don't suppose forgive and forget would ever happen......

Doesn't it just seem logical that Jesus would want the body of believers to be under one figure who shepherds the flock like Him?


It seem more logical to both of us, as we have already discussed a bit my friend. That the Holy Spirit will be the one figure guiding the church into all truth. I rather put my trust to a community shepherding the flock by the Spirit than one man. That idea seems much more deeper, wiser and secure.

But that presumes a misunderstanding of papal infallibility.  It makes it seem as though the pope woke up one day with an inspiration to declare something.

As I understand, ex cathedra statement is not just the pope saying, "Hunter green is the best color in the world, and everyone has to agree."  It's clarification of a spiritual fact that was not clear or evident previously.
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« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2013, 08:46:58 PM »

Quote
But that presumes a misunderstanding of papal infallibility.  It makes it seem as though the pope woke up one day with an inspiration to declare something.

As I understand, ex cathedra statement is not just the pope saying, "Hunter green is the best color in the world, and everyone has to agree."  It's clarification of a spiritual fact that was not clear or evident previously.


No my friend, forgive me, I was not even thinking about papal infallibility, but rather his primacy. The process of clarification within the church and its first 1000 years was always within the community of the entire church. Primacy was not even considered for a second during the ecumenical councils. The possibility of how the pope nowadays execute his primacy was never there before 1054, that´s the big issue. The possibility of a single man statement which abides in all of Catholicism is possible today, it was not before 1054. The church was clear on that.
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« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2013, 08:57:43 PM »

Quote
I don't suppose forgive and forget would ever happen......

Doesn't it just seem logical that Jesus would want the body of believers to be under one figure who shepherds the flock like Him?


It seem more logical to both of us, as we have already discussed a bit my friend. That the Holy Spirit will be the one figure guiding the church into all truth. I rather put my trust to a community shepherding the flock by the Spirit than one man. That idea seems much more deeper, wiser and secure.

But that presumes a misunderstanding of papal infallibility.  It makes it seem as though the pope woke up one day with an inspiration to declare something.

As I understand, ex cathedra statement is not just the pope saying, "Hunter green is the best color in the world, and everyone has to agree."  It's clarification of a spiritual fact that was not clear or evident previously.

Christ appointed twelve apostles, and a further seventy, not just one. All of them were led into all truth by the Holy Spirit, not just one.
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« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2013, 09:23:12 PM »

...Who speaks for Christ here and now on Earth? The single source of the Bible? The single source of the Pope? Or are there multiple sources that inform the Church about God's will. I can list them if need be,

I thought ex cathedra statements are only used rarely...and it's proclamation/defining of a spiritual truth, not formulating a truth, per se...Or at least that's what I've read from Catholics...

The problem is that you can't always tell when the Pope is speaking ex cathedra.

And "defining" a spiritual doctrine often looks like something brand new to us.
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« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2013, 09:59:51 PM »

But didn't Peter have a unique role?  *Some* sort of primacy.

Sure, Peter had "some sort" of primacy among the apostles.  We don't reject that at all.  What is at issue is whether or not Christ intended that this primacy continue among their successors by having one specific bishop to whom all other bishops look as "the first", as "the leader".  You don't find this in Scripture.  You have to assign it to the Popes by analogy: since the Bishops of Rome are successors to St Peter in the place where he died, they have this primacy among the bishops of the world.  But you don't find that in Scripture either.  Neither do you find it in the early Church: when I was interested in becoming a RC (a period of a few years), it was reading church history that convinced me this "primacy", as RC's have defined it, simply did not exist before the fifth century.  Even after that, it was much less than what Rome has made it at present. 

Quote
What exactly has the Roman Church stated that is *against* the faith?  Not just what is perceived to be an "innovation" but actually against the faith.

What do you mean, "against the faith"? 

Doesn't it just seem logical that Jesus would want the body of believers to be under one figure who shepherds the flock like Him?

Logical?  Based on what? 

I don't think it's an accident that Rome's claims to primacy increase as it became further and further alienated from the rest of the Church.  First of all, Rome was the only "apostolic see" in the West, and so it was natural for all other bishops in the West to look to Rome (unlike in the East, where there are a number of "apostolic sees").  Gradually, as the West and the East drifted apart, both sides viewed the other as the break-away and themselves as "the true Church", the legitimate heir to the one Church.  As time goes on, Rome continues to proclaim itself as "the true Church", continues to expand through noble and ignoble methods, and by the nineteenth century is found all over the inhabited world.  At that point, you're not dealing with a "local Church" in Western Europe vs a communion of "local Churches" in the East, you're dealing with a global entity vs those "local Churches" in the East.  It's roughly in tandem with this development that you have these ideas about "Catholic" meaning "found everywhere" or the logic of having "one figure who shepherds" what has become a global flock.  None of these things are biblical, apostolic, patristic, or what have you.  They are developments that snowball from the estrangement of the West from the truth. 

As an ex post facto explanation for how the RCC is organised, yes, their Petrine claims are quite nice, logical, "fitting".  But it flies in the face of Scripture and the totality of what we know from history, from patristic writings, conciliar declarations and legislation, etc. 
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« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2013, 08:42:18 AM »

Catholic means the unchanging Faith once delivered by Christ to His Apostles for all times, all peoples, and all places. This is the Holy Faith of the Orthodox Church.

That's not what Greek says.

Different Orthodox traditions believe in different core principles?

How are you Orthodox ("Catholic") but multiple Churches interpret different things?

I mean word "catholic" has different meaning that Maria is saying.

Of course, I do not rely on what Webster's says, but on what the living tradition of our Holy Church says.

When I was a catechumen in the Greek Orthodox Church (GOARCH), this is the meaning of "Catholic" that our priests taught us.

BTW, Mike, Webster's and Merriam were not around in 33 AD.

OK, you believe green means



Fine.
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« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2013, 04:35:03 PM »

Catholic means the unchanging Faith once delivered by Christ to His Apostles for all times, all peoples, and all places. This is the Holy Faith of the Orthodox Church.

That's not what Greek says.

Different Orthodox traditions believe in different core principles?

How are you Orthodox ("Catholic") but multiple Churches interpret different things?

I mean word "catholic" has different meaning that Maria is saying.

Of course, I do not rely on what Webster's says, but on what the living tradition of our Holy Church says.
But even the living Tradition of our Holy Church doesn't define "catholic" the way you do.

When I was a catechumen in the Greek Orthodox Church (GOARCH), this is the meaning of "Catholic" that our priests taught us.
Then your priests taught you wrong.

BTW, Mike, Webster's and Merriam were not around in 33 AD.
Neither were your priests, Maria.
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« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2013, 11:06:24 PM »

Quote
But didn't Peter have a unique role?

Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to all of His apostles, not just to Peter.

The Catholics would say Peter was given the role of the steward of the kingdom.  and there was only one steward.

Yet James was the bishop of the Church in Jerusalem, which was established on Pentecost.    If Peter was truly the steward of the kingdom as the RC Church says, why wasn't Peter the bishop of the Church in Jerusalem?
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« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2013, 11:09:36 PM »

Quote
But didn't Peter have a unique role?

Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to all of His apostles, not just to Peter.

The Catholics would say Peter was given the role of the steward of the kingdom.  and there was only one steward.

Yet James was the bishop of the Church in Jerusalem, which was established on Pentecost.    If Peter was truly the steward of the kingdom as the RC Church says, why wasn't Peter the bishop of the Church in Jerusalem?

... and James presided over the first Apostolic council, not Peter.  Wink In fact, Peter's Judaizing position on the need for Gentiles to be circumcised before baptism was successfully rebutted by Paul.
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« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2013, 11:10:01 PM »

Quote
But didn't Peter have a unique role?

Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to all of His apostles, not just to Peter.

The Catholics would say Peter was given the role of the steward of the kingdom.  and there was only one steward.

Yet James was the bishop of the Church in Jerusalem, which was established on Pentecost.    If Peter was truly the steward of the kingdom as the RC Church says, why wasn't Peter the bishop of the Church in Jerusalem?

And St. Peter established his See in Antioch before he went to Rome. Antioch is a more ancient Petrine See than Rome is. The sole successor to St. Peter thing is just not true.



Pat. John Yaziji X is the Successor to St. Peter.
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« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2013, 11:29:01 PM »

And St. Peter established his See in Antioch before he went to Rome. Antioch is a more ancient Petrine See than Rome is. The sole successor to St. Peter thing is just not true.



HH Ignatius Zakka I, Patriarch of Antioch, Successor of St Peter.  Wink
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« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2013, 11:32:33 PM »

And St. Peter established his See in Antioch before he went to Rome. Antioch is a more ancient Petrine See than Rome is. The sole successor to St. Peter thing is just not true.



HH Ignatius Zakka I, Patriarch of Antioch, Successor of St Peter.  Wink

Let's not stop there.  Grin



I just had a thought. I was wondering how Nestorian liturgics differ from those of the Orthodox Church? I saw the Catholicos vested in another image, so I just had that thought. Maybe a seperate thread?
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« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2013, 11:37:23 PM »

Let's not stop there.  Grin

No, we need to stop there: he's not a successor of St Peter, but of St Thomas.  Tongue

Quote
I just had a thought. I was wondering how Nestorian liturgics differ from those of the Orthodox Church? I saw the Catholicos vested in another image, so I just had that thought. Maybe a seperate thread?

That's for another thread.  BTW, "Assyrian", not "Nestorian". 
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« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2013, 12:10:41 AM »

Let's not stop there.  Grin

No, we need to stop there: he's not a successor of St Peter, but of St Thomas.  Tongue

Quote
I just had a thought. I was wondering how Nestorian liturgics differ from those of the Orthodox Church? I saw the Catholicos vested in another image, so I just had that thought. Maybe a seperate thread?

That's for another thread.  BTW, "Assyrian", not "Nestorian". 

Quote from: www.peshitta.org/
To His Holiness, Mar Khananya Dinkha IV, Catholicos Patriarch of the Church of the East, and 120th successor to the apostolic throne of St. Peter in Seleucia-Ctestiphon, Babylon

Am I wrong about something, or is this quote wrong? What's wrong?  Undecided Am I confusing the Church of the East with the Assyrian Church of the East?
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« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2013, 12:28:15 AM »

Quote from: www.peshitta.org/
To His Holiness, Mar Khananya Dinkha IV, Catholicos Patriarch of the Church of the East, and 120th successor to the apostolic throne of St. Peter in Seleucia-Ctestiphon, Babylon

Am I wrong about something, or is this quote wrong? What's wrong?  Undecided Am I confusing the Church of the East with the Assyrian Church of the East?

That's weird...this isn't so weird.  Wink
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« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2013, 08:03:32 AM »

So what about the claim about how in the Old Testament, there was only 1 steward of the kingdom?

And how Jesus told Peter specifically to strengthen his brothers?
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« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2013, 11:22:30 AM »

So what about the claim about how in the Old Testament, there was only 1 steward of the kingdom?

And how Jesus told Peter specifically to strengthen his brothers?

I have watched Scott Hahn. I have never understood this argument. The Orthodox believe that the 'Catholic' (whole) Church is in the local Church. So every local Bishop is a steward of the kingdom.

"Wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (St. Ignatios of Antioch)

But again, the burden of proof is on Rome to prove why their successor to Peter, is better than the Orthodox successor to St. Peter in Antioch.
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« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2013, 11:41:12 AM »

So what about the claim about how in the Old Testament, there was only 1 steward of the kingdom?
Where in the OT do you see that?

And how Jesus told Peter specifically to strengthen his brothers?
Why does that have to be interpreted as a claim for primacy as this concept is defined by Rome?
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« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2013, 03:09:12 PM »

Quote
How can I go against the saints and the private revelations of God and Blessed Virgin Mary/Theotokos?

(One of the reasons I first chose the RCC over OC is that some Orthodox Christians spoke badly about St. Francis, so I thought, OMGosh...how could they say that against a holy servant of God?!)

Even if I were to consider the OC, I could never get away from this guilt that I walked away from potentially joining the Catholic Church.  (And I assure you, it's mostly for selfish reasons, so it's not even a pious, holy reason.)

Quote
I'm such a great sinner (not just saying that because it seems humble ---- if only you could see my soul, you'd agree), I should focus on reforming my sinful state, regardless of which Church tradition I follow...but I'll be starting a new "chapter" in my life and figured, why not begin my spiritual journey afresh as well?

Dear brother(/sister?),
Orthodox saints had also divine revelations about the truth of their faith. If your're too afraid to attend the Divine Liturgy then why don't you read first of all the lives of several orthodox saints and compare them with the rome-catholic saints?! Or any other orthodox book?! I read also some lives of catholic saints and Filippo Neri impressed me most. But on the other hand I've found also a "goldmine" of saints in the Orthodox Church.

If you really want to choose between Orthodoxy and Catholicism you have not only to pray for God's mercy but also fasting is required. Fasting will help you to calm down your spirit, your temper, so that you can hear better, sense the voice of your heart.

Don't be afraid - God is full of mercy, God is love. Even you live an sinful life - the most important thing is to keep struggling, to keep going to confession regularly without hiding anything, and  don't give up - or to quote St. Silouan the Athonite: " Do not be cast down over the struggle- the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant."

In my case the book of Klaus Kenneth: "Born to hate reborn to love: A Spiritual Odyssey from Head to Heart" was a great help. Klaus Kenneth had the privilege to met Mother Theresa personally and to cry in her arms several times. His life helped  me very much to understand God's mercy and how God allows us to doubt or to seek the right path with contrition of heart, humility and patience.
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« Reply #89 on: December 24, 2013, 01:52:29 PM »

Wow. There's a lot of fascinating and important dialogue to respond to. I'm a new member, so take what I say with a grain of salt. This said, I would say to the OP, as a current Protestant investigating the Orthodox Church myself, you will be guided in the right direction if you pray. I am still in that space of waiting myself, and though I confess my prayer life is somewhat undisciplined, I do my best to remember to keep asking God for His will in my life. Second, as several others have said, be not afraid. As long as you are honestly and unceasingly seeking God, He will guide you in the way he wants you to go. As Psalm 91 says, "If you say, “The Lord is my refuge,”
and you make the Most High your dwelling,
no harm will overtake you,
no disaster will come near your tent.
For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;
they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."

We are all sinners, myself not at all least. I have committed plenty of sins with full knowledge of what I was doing and even occasionally in spite of God. But if we are sincere in our repentance and our contrition (a state I have only begun to experience fully), He will extend his mercy. Even a leaning in the right direction is something He can use.

Pray for me, and may the Lord guide you in this time of fear.
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