OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 16, 2014, 05:43:11 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: WR Orthodox, a Rite or More?  (Read 3548 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #135 on: January 15, 2014, 10:49:46 PM »

To primuspilus:


REPLY:  This is within Canonical Orthodoxy, though.   If I was a Traditionalist Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Western Rite Church opened up down the street, I would certainly get ticked off and view it as encroachment.   
 

Why?  Our Western Rite is not based on deception designed to fool people into believing that they had not left the Orthodox Church but simply became  Orthodox in Communion with Rome or a Roman Catholic monarch forcing people to submit to Rome.  Our Western Rite is clearly identified as Orthodox. No Roman Catholic monarch forced people to join our Western Rite, they freely came to us.

Fr. John W. Morris
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 10:51:15 PM by frjohnmorris » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,576



« Reply #136 on: January 16, 2014, 12:19:30 AM »

Quote
This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
I honestly, have no answer for you. They just look small and circular. I wasn't trying to say they were azymes or anything. My priest says, "Behold the Lamb of God; behold him that takest away the sins of the world" and thats it for me. I don't really think about the other stuff.

PP
It makes happy two implacable camps-those who think azymes are heresy (i.e. a lot of ERO) and those who hold flat wafers as Western tradition (with a dash of disdain for the loaves that have multiplied in the West after Vatican II).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #137 on: January 16, 2014, 01:09:04 AM »

Quote
To primuspilus:
If I was a Traditionalist Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Western Rite Church opened up down the street, I would certainly get ticked off and view it as encroachment.  


I also have never viewed the "Western Rite" Orthodox Church as an encroachment, because less than 10% of it's members are former Traditionalist Roman Catholics. If someone saw multiple missions/parishes who had that background, the view of encroachment might make sense.  

Yes, I agree with Rev. Fr. John. Almost all the traditional Roman Catholics who had converted to Orthodox that I met were part of the byzantine rite majority. IN various "WR" Orthodox Churches, out of about 30 people in a mission or parish, I tended to meet one or two people who were former conservative or traditional Roman Catholics. 98% are former protestants or something else. It is actually quite amazing how many former Roman Catholics are in the byzantine rite of the Orthodox Church and how few are in the Western rite. It is probably a great blessing from the Eastern Orthodox Perspective to have this many come to them. I don't think anyone fits into Orthodoxy as easily as Roman Catholics, once they go beyond any remaining ritual preferences.

I have concluded that like myself, many other Roman Catholic seekers saw the inconsistencies and hardships in being part of the so-called "Western Rite" as not worth the amount of effort it would require to participate happily. Given a fully functioning large byzantine rite parish, few people are going to go through the effort of doing something different. The attachment to a particular rite is not a barrier for them. They came to the church for the faith and were quite content with the glories of the rite(s) of byzantium and probably less content with the "low mass mentality" typically found in the western rite.

Unlike those Roman Catholics who converted to the Byzantine rite, I am probably more attached to the fullness of the Western rite as I typically encounter it in ideal parish or monastery of the Roman Catholic Church. These are rare, but they exist near where I live, despite the Roman Church being more greatly weakened by modernization and heresies within her clergy than the Orthodox. Somehow I justify this, but to many others I may appear peculiar or immature.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 01:20:51 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,405


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #138 on: January 16, 2014, 08:41:49 AM »

I know for us, the overwhelmingly vast majority in our parish were Anglicans or Episcopalians that got fed up with their complete nonsense and converted. I know for a fact that there is one family that left Rome after Vatican 2, were ER and are now WR (originally because again, the Greek Church is hardly ever open) and now stay WR because they love it. They were my sponsors Smiley

About 30% or so came from a this-or-that Protestant background. However there is one totally awesome thing that happens alot in our Church. I live in the town that unfortunately is also inhabited by Liberty University. Every year, they tell kids in "bible class" to find a church that is different from the one they grew up with, go to a service, and note the differences. Well, alot of those kids come to our parish and view a liturgy, and afterwards stay for coffee hour and talk with our Priest. A year later, they are Orthodox Smiley It happens every year (including this year, we have at least 2, possibly more).

Quote
Not necessarily. St. John 18:28 The Mystical Supper took place before the actual Passover. do He would have used leavened bread. We use leavened bread because we partake of the resurrected living Body of Christ.  Originally event the West used leavened bread for the Eucharist.

Fr. John W. Morris
Thats why Im not a priest....well, that and because I dont wanna be one Smiley

Quote
It makes happy two implacable camps-those who think azymes are heresy
Isa, are they really that many who view them as heresy?

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #139 on: January 16, 2014, 09:00:06 AM »

Quote
This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
I honestly, have no answer for you. They just look small and circular. I wasn't trying to say they were azymes or anything. My priest says, "Behold the Lamb of God; behold him that takest away the sins of the world" and thats it for me. I don't really think about the other stuff.

PP
It makes happy two implacable camps-those who think azymes are heresy (i.e. a lot of ERO) and those who hold flat wafers as Western tradition (with a dash of disdain for the loaves that have multiplied in the West after Vatican II).

The wafers used by the Antiochian Western Rite are leavened. I believe that they get them from some Roman Catholic nuns who bake them.

Fr. John W. Morris
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #140 on: January 16, 2014, 09:29:23 AM »

Why would RC nuns bake leavened wafers?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #141 on: January 16, 2014, 09:39:15 AM »

Why would RC nuns bake leavened wafers?

I do not know why they bake them, but I have been told more than once by Western Rite clergy, including their Vicar General, that they get leavened wafers baked by RC nuns. I am not Western Rite, so only know what the Western Rite clergy tell me about what they do.

Fr. John  W.  Morris
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,576



« Reply #142 on: January 16, 2014, 09:42:48 AM »

I know for us, the overwhelmingly vast majority in our parish were Anglicans or Episcopalians that got fed up with their complete nonsense and converted. I know for a fact that there is one family that left Rome after Vatican 2, were ER and are now WR (originally because again, the Greek Church is hardly ever open) and now stay WR because they love it. They were my sponsors Smiley

About 30% or so came from a this-or-that Protestant background. However there is one totally awesome thing that happens alot in our Church. I live in the town that unfortunately is also inhabited by Liberty University. Every year, they tell kids in "bible class" to find a church that is different from the one they grew up with, go to a service, and note the differences. Well, alot of those kids come to our parish and view a liturgy, and afterwards stay for coffee hour and talk with our Priest. A year later, they are Orthodox Smiley It happens every year (including this year, we have at least 2, possibly more).

Quote
Not necessarily. St. John 18:28 The Mystical Supper took place before the actual Passover. do He would have used leavened bread. We use leavened bread because we partake of the resurrected living Body of Christ.  Originally event the West used leavened bread for the Eucharist.

Fr. John W. Morris
Thats why Im not a priest....well, that and because I dont wanna be one Smiley

Quote
It makes happy two implacable camps-those who think azymes are heresy
Isa, are they really that many who view them as heresy?
Too many.

Btw, as I have mentioned before, I have met cradle ethic ERO who have Americanized and now are WRO.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 09:45:11 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,405


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #143 on: January 16, 2014, 09:46:24 AM »

I know for us, the overwhelmingly vast majority in our parish were Anglicans or Episcopalians that got fed up with their complete nonsense and converted. I know for a fact that there is one family that left Rome after Vatican 2, were ER and are now WR (originally because again, the Greek Church is hardly ever open) and now stay WR because they love it. They were my sponsors Smiley

About 30% or so came from a this-or-that Protestant background. However there is one totally awesome thing that happens alot in our Church. I live in the town that unfortunately is also inhabited by Liberty University. Every year, they tell kids in "bible class" to find a church that is different from the one they grew up with, go to a service, and note the differences. Well, alot of those kids come to our parish and view a liturgy, and afterwards stay for coffee hour and talk with our Priest. A year later, they are Orthodox Smiley It happens every year (including this year, we have at least 2, possibly more).

Quote
Not necessarily. St. John 18:28 The Mystical Supper took place before the actual Passover. do He would have used leavened bread. We use leavened bread because we partake of the resurrected living Body of Christ.  Originally event the West used leavened bread for the Eucharist.

Fr. John W. Morris
Thats why Im not a priest....well, that and because I dont wanna be one Smiley

Quote
It makes happy two implacable camps-those who think azymes are heresy
Isa, are they really that many who view them as heresy?
Too many.

Btw, as I have mentioned before, I have met cradle ethic ERO who have Americanized and now are WRO.
Which is awesome Smiley

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,576



« Reply #144 on: January 16, 2014, 09:58:29 AM »

I know for us, the overwhelmingly vast majority in our parish were Anglicans or Episcopalians that got fed up with their complete nonsense and converted. I know for a fact that there is one family that left Rome after Vatican 2, were ER and are now WR (originally because again, the Greek Church is hardly ever open) and now stay WR because they love it. They were my sponsors Smiley

About 30% or so came from a this-or-that Protestant background. However there is one totally awesome thing that happens alot in our Church. I live in the town that unfortunately is also inhabited by Liberty University. Every year, they tell kids in "bible class" to find a church that is different from the one they grew up with, go to a service, and note the differences. Well, alot of those kids come to our parish and view a liturgy, and afterwards stay for coffee hour and talk with our Priest. A year later, they are Orthodox Smiley It happens every year (including this year, we have at least 2, possibly more).

Quote
Not necessarily. St. John 18:28 The Mystical Supper took place before the actual Passover. do He would have used leavened bread. We use leavened bread because we partake of the resurrected living Body of Christ.  Originally event the West used leavened bread for the Eucharist.

Fr. John W. Morris
Thats why Im not a priest....well, that and because I dont wanna be one Smiley

Quote
It makes happy two implacable camps-those who think azymes are heresy
Isa, are they really that many who view them as heresy?
Too many.

Btw, as I have mentioned before, I have met cradle ethic ERO who have Americanized and now are WRO.
Which is awesome Smiley

PP
Exactly.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,003


"My god is greater."


« Reply #145 on: January 16, 2014, 11:45:48 AM »

Why would RC nuns bake leavened wafers?

I think the bigger question is, why would anyone bake them?  If all bread for the eucharist must be leavened then don't make wafers; if unleavened bread is an acceptable Western practice, then don't leaven them.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,405


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #146 on: January 16, 2014, 12:13:02 PM »

Quote
If all bread for the eucharist must be leavened then don't make wafers
You can have leavened wafers. It also makes for easier shipping I'd imagine.

Quote
if unleavened bread is an acceptable Western practice, then don't leaven them
I believe we use leavened because unleavened is not acceptable to the WR.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #147 on: January 16, 2014, 01:27:45 PM »

I believe another factor is that the established ritual rubrics for our Masses necessitate that the bread be in traditional wafer form. In other words, the motions and such wouldn't work if what were used were something more like a loaf. But I could be wrong.
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,003


"My god is greater."


« Reply #148 on: January 16, 2014, 01:32:48 PM »

Quote
If all bread for the eucharist must be leavened then don't make wafers
You can have leavened wafers. It also makes for easier shipping I'd imagine.

Quote
if unleavened bread is an acceptable Western practice, then don't leaven them
I believe we use leavened because unleavened is not acceptable to the WR.

PP

But the whole form of the wafer comes from the tradition of using unleavened bread. Essentially you are making leavened bread to look like unleavened bread. As I recall, the basic argument against unleavened bread made by the East is that the leaven represents the resurrection- the bread rises like Christ. If you're not allowing the bread to puff up the symbolism is defeated. If unleavened bread is not acceptable in WR, then this is a concession that the West was in error long before the schism. I thought the whole idea of WR was that the pre-schism West was equally Orthodox to the East.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 01:37:40 PM by Iconodule » Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,954


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #149 on: January 16, 2014, 01:32:55 PM »

]I have never been to an ER anything. Vespers, Liturgy, nothing...well, almost nothing.

That's really interesting, in a good way.  It doesn't often happen that way.  
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,405


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #150 on: January 16, 2014, 01:42:33 PM »

Quote
If all bread for the eucharist must be leavened then don't make wafers
You can have leavened wafers. It also makes for easier shipping I'd imagine.

Quote
if unleavened bread is an acceptable Western practice, then don't leaven them
I believe we use leavened because unleavened is not acceptable to the WR.

PP

But the whole form of the wafer comes from the tradition of using unleavened bread. Essentially you are making leavened bread to look like unleavened bread. As I recall, the basic argument against unleavened bread made by the East is that the leaven represents the resurrection- the bread rises like Christ. If you're not allowing the bread to puff up the symbolism is defeated. If unleavened bread is not acceptable in WR, then this is a concession that the West was in error long before the schism. I thought the whole idea of WR was that the pre-schism West was equally Orthodox to the East.
I honestly have no clue as to why. Could I use economia on this?

]I have never been to an ER anything. Vespers, Liturgy, nothing...well, almost nothing.

That's really interesting, in a good way.  It doesn't often happen that way. 
I've been told it is pretty rare. I'm pretty sure I'll feel very out of sorts from going to not needing a liturgy book at all to getting all befuddled at "the doors, the doors" Smiley

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #151 on: January 16, 2014, 02:46:30 PM »

Quote
If all bread for the eucharist must be leavened then don't make wafers
You can have leavened wafers. It also makes for easier shipping I'd imagine.

Quote
if unleavened bread is an acceptable Western practice, then don't leaven them
I believe we use leavened because unleavened is not acceptable to the WR.

PP

But the whole form of the wafer comes from the tradition of using unleavened bread. Essentially you are making leavened bread to look like unleavened bread. As I recall, the basic argument against unleavened bread made by the East is that the leaven represents the resurrection- the bread rises like Christ. If you're not allowing the bread to puff up the symbolism is defeated. If unleavened bread is not acceptable in WR, then this is a concession that the West was in error long before the schism. I thought the whole idea of WR was that the pre-schism West was equally Orthodox to the East.

Before the bread is pressed into the flattened disc, it does indeed rise like any other leavened bread would. But I also believe there is more than one way to make them, some perhaps not being "pressed" but being baked directly into the smaller wafer shape. But either way, the leaven is there and the bread does rise, if not as drastically as an entire loaf would.

As with many things in the Orthodox Western Rite, this is likely a theological change that simultaneously preserves the long-established tradition in question. In other words, what has become a normative aspect of the organic tradition in the West is preserved to whatever extent possible, in content and form, while only changing (and thus fulfilling) what needs to be changed in order to become fully consonant with Orthodoxy. This ensures the continued organic development of the tradition while also pointing it in the right direction; the faithful are not scandalized by the hijacking of their traditions, yet their heritage is now, in a sense, fuller and more closely connected with Orthodoxy.

Other examples might include how the Rosary is prayed (eschewing "imagination" for an approach that uses Scripture, thus rooting it deeper in the ancient Western tradition of lectio divina), kneeling on Sundays (less about penitence or more about awe and reverence; "Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker"), or even the mere adjusting of texts in the Mass to preserve the feeling and flow of the language, whilst totally shifting its meaning (for example, correcting "Who by His one oblation" to "Who by His own oblation" in the Mass of St. Tikhon).
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,954


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #152 on: January 16, 2014, 02:49:43 PM »

As with many things in the Orthodox Western Rite, this is likely a theological change that simultaneously preserves the long-established tradition in question. In other words, what has become a normative aspect of the organic tradition in the West is preserved to whatever extent possible, in content and form, while only changing (and thus fulfilling) what needs to be changed in order to become fully consonant with Orthodoxy. This ensures the continued organic development of the tradition while also pointing it in the right direction; the faithful are not scandalized by the hijacking of their traditions, yet their heritage is now, in a sense, fuller and more closely connected with Orthodoxy.

So it is the belief, and not merely the practice, of the Eastern Orthodox Church that unleavened bread is always and everywhere inappropriate for use in the Eucharistic Liturgy?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #153 on: January 16, 2014, 02:57:58 PM »

As with many things in the Orthodox Western Rite, this is likely a theological change that simultaneously preserves the long-established tradition in question. In other words, what has become a normative aspect of the organic tradition in the West is preserved to whatever extent possible, in content and form, while only changing (and thus fulfilling) what needs to be changed in order to become fully consonant with Orthodoxy. This ensures the continued organic development of the tradition while also pointing it in the right direction; the faithful are not scandalized by the hijacking of their traditions, yet their heritage is now, in a sense, fuller and more closely connected with Orthodoxy.

So it is the belief, and not merely the practice, of the Eastern Orthodox Church that unleavened bread is always and everywhere inappropriate for use in the Eucharistic Liturgy?

It's a great question and one I don't know the answer to. I just know that, to the powers that be, it was important for WRO to use leaven. Whether this was seen as temporary, pastoral, or what, I haven't the foggiest.

Interestingly, Fr. Thomas Hopko stated (in his remarks on what it would take for Rome to become Orthodox again; which essentially amounts to his manifesto on what Western Orthodoxy would/should look like) that: "As for the bread, unleavened wafers may be used for pastoral reasons in the churches with this practice, but the pope would affirm leavened bread as normative for the Christian Eucharist." (source: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php)

So maybe it's both/and?
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,954


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #154 on: January 16, 2014, 03:08:07 PM »

Interestingly, Fr. Thomas Hopko stated (in his remarks on what it would take for Rome to become Orthodox again; which essentially amounts to his manifesto on what Western Orthodoxy would/should look like) that: "As for the bread, unleavened wafers may be used for pastoral reasons in the churches with this practice, but the pope would affirm leavened bread as normative for the Christian Eucharist." (source: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php)

So maybe it's both/and?

Or maybe Fr Hopko overreaches.  It would be difficult for Rome to affirm that leavened bread is normative for the Eucharist if they are still allowed to use it in a reunion: over one billion people using unleavened wafers versus something like three hundred million using leavened bread?  How could it ever be normative with numbers like that?  Why would it need to be normative?   
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
James2
Mr.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: skeptic
Posts: 746



« Reply #155 on: January 16, 2014, 03:57:36 PM »

Quote
If all bread for the eucharist must be leavened then don't make wafers
You can have leavened wafers. It also makes for easier shipping I'd imagine.

Quote
if unleavened bread is an acceptable Western practice, then don't leaven them
I believe we use leavened because unleavened is not acceptable to the WR.

PP

But the whole form of the wafer comes from the tradition of using unleavened bread. Essentially you are making leavened bread to look like unleavened bread. As I recall, the basic argument against unleavened bread made by the East is that the leaven represents the resurrection- the bread rises like Christ. If you're not allowing the bread to puff up the symbolism is defeated. If unleavened bread is not acceptable in WR, then this is a concession that the West was in error long before the schism. I thought the whole idea of WR was that the pre-schism West was equally Orthodox to the East.

The situation with the azymes is not much different from that of the West being in error on the filioque long before the schism.  Those Western practices and teachings that contributed to the schism obviously had to exist before the schism:  azymes, filioque, and papal authority.  During the period in which the schism hardened (11th - 15th centuries), these matters were joined by purgatory and the epiclesis.  WR Orthodoxy naturally takes the Orthodox line on these matters.  "Pre-schism" is not a strictly chronological term, as though everything done in the West before 1054 must be okay.  Likewise, there are some post-schism Western practices (e.g., vernacular hymnody) that are compatible with Orthodoxy, and the Western Rite rightly retains them.
Logged
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #156 on: January 16, 2014, 05:04:01 PM »

The practice of making leavened bread that appears unleavened as always seemed especially absurd to me.
Either use one form or use another, I do not think that pretending that it's not what it by giving it a different appearance makes sense, it is too peculiar. As an attempt to compromise it is debateable how successful it really is. I would argue that a more universal appearance of bread for the eucharist is of greater benefit than a this form of pretending otherwise.

Many of the ROCOR "WR" churches use the exact same obviously leavened bread that byzantine rites use.
If one follows the older rubrics which do not elevate the eucharist above the head it is not difficult to use it.
If one does not expect to put a larger leavened eucharist in the same size monstrance for a tiny wafer it is possible to do the same things with it.  The monstrances from before the 15th century would be better for larger sized eucharist.  Likewise the older forms  of pyxes, sacrariums or church tabernacles should fit well a larger leavened eucharist.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 05:10:16 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,711



« Reply #157 on: January 16, 2014, 05:15:56 PM »

If one follows the older rubrics which do not elevate the eucharist above the head it is not difficult to use it.

Elevating the gifts above the head doesn't seem so hard with leavened bread either. I've seen it in Eastern rite around here.
Logged

Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #158 on: January 16, 2014, 06:43:46 PM »

The practice of making leavened bread that appears unleavened as always seemed especially absurd to me.
Either use one form or use another, I do not think that pretending that it's not what it by giving it a different appearance makes sense, it is too peculiar. As an attempt to compromise it is debateable how successful it really is. I would argue that a more universal appearance of bread for the eucharist is of greater benefit than a this form of pretending otherwise.

Many of the ROCOR "WR" churches use the exact same obviously leavened bread that byzantine rites use.
If one follows the older rubrics which do not elevate the eucharist above the head it is not difficult to use it.
If one does not expect to put a larger leavened eucharist in the same size monstrance for a tiny wafer it is possible to do the same things with it.  The monstrances from before the 15th century would be better for larger sized eucharist.  Likewise the older forms  of pyxes, sacrariums or church tabernacles should fit well a larger leavened eucharist.

Labeling it "pretending" is neither fair nor accurate. No one is trying to fool anybody. It's merely the customary bread we have always used, it just has leaven now. Nothing more nothing less.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,405


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #159 on: January 22, 2014, 01:25:22 PM »

The practice of making leavened bread that appears unleavened as always seemed especially absurd to me.
Either use one form or use another, I do not think that pretending that it's not what it by giving it a different appearance makes sense, it is too peculiar. As an attempt to compromise it is debateable how successful it really is. I would argue that a more universal appearance of bread for the eucharist is of greater benefit than a this form of pretending otherwise.

Many of the ROCOR "WR" churches use the exact same obviously leavened bread that byzantine rites use.
If one follows the older rubrics which do not elevate the eucharist above the head it is not difficult to use it.
If one does not expect to put a larger leavened eucharist in the same size monstrance for a tiny wafer it is possible to do the same things with it.  The monstrances from before the 15th century would be better for larger sized eucharist.  Likewise the older forms  of pyxes, sacrariums or church tabernacles should fit well a larger leavened eucharist.

Labeling it "pretending" is neither fair nor accurate. No one is trying to fool anybody. It's merely the customary bread we have always used, it just has leaven now. Nothing more nothing less.
Ah, if this leaven thing was the biggest issue holding us back.......

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.107 seconds with 53 queries.