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Author Topic: WR Orthodox, a Rite or More?  (Read 4292 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2014, 08:50:05 AM »

Is the so-called Eastern Rite more than a rite? I don't think so.

Me neither. But most of the Netodox seem to have an idea that Eastern rite = Orthodoxy whereas Western rite = just a rite.
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« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2014, 09:43:26 AM »

To primuspilus:

"The medicine is already been prescribed. Return to the Pre-Schism West which the WR is. Whether Rome or anyone else takes their medicine is another issue entirely."

REPLY:  I agree.

"Im not saying they are, but Im saying that major problems can be corrected, and its not an insurmountable obstacle."

REPLY:  I agree.

"You said that you doubted that many souls have benefited. I asked for evidence. I wasn't calling you a hypocrite. I just asked for evidence to back up your assumption."

REPLY:  Re-read my post #74.  I said that "I have NO doubt that...."

"If you think I was attacking you I apologize. I was not."

REPLY:  I apologize as well.

"We dont have to "sell" it. We're not con men."

REPLY:  No, you aren't.  BUT, for the Western Rite to grow it has to be made to be seen as a viable alternative for Western Christians who for whatever reason are wary of Our Liturgy and Traditions.   I used the word sell to put it in more general layman's terms, although a better word could have been chosen.

"If those traditions are Orthodox then why not? The WR isn't like Rome where as long as you bow your knee to the Pope you can believe whatever you want."

REPLY: No argument here.

"The difference is pretty obvious. With Rome, you can believe whatever you wish, as long as you bow your knee to Rome. Melkites can believe all they want that the Pope is primus inter pares, while they bow their knee to him and obey his whims.

With the WR, we have to be completely orthodox and Orthodox in every way. Every other argument concerning the WR and the Unia is really a non sequitur."

REPLY:  That is a bit of an oversimplification of the Latin position.  They do have boundaries, although thos are being pushed further out as time goes on.   Eastern Catholics make the same claim about "keeping your traditions" but it is reversed.   This is the fact of the matter.  I'm not saying they are the same,  only that the two can be compared in respect to their "selling point" to the other side of the fence.

"The WR isn't dancing around anything. The WR is giving people a chance to see that there is a time before Rome's innovations, and see what the western half Orthodoxy looked like before the schism. That return is possible without having to be ethno-centric (as they see it)."

REPLY:  I don't know if I would go so far as to say that this is what the Western Half of Orthodoxy looked like, but I do agree that it is good to offer a path for those people.

"That is something everyone wants to avoid. I cant speak for everyone, but in my town, there are 2 Orthodox churches. The Greek church has no priest, and only has services maybe twice a month. So quite a few come to our Church (especially on major feasts) but when a priest shows up there they go o their home church. Very few (I can only think of one family) has actually switched to our church "full time".  "

REPLY:  This is within Canonical Orthodoxy, though.   If I was a Traditionalist Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Western Rite Church opened up down the street, I would certainly get ticked off and view it as encroachment.   

This is the main thrust of my points.   How can the growth of the Western Rite occur without this clash?  I would be disinclined to worry about it, but in the interest of neighborly relations it is inevitably a consideration.
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« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2014, 10:08:45 AM »

I do not think a thing's worth or validity should in any way be based upon "growth," as nice as it would be for more parishes to come into Holy Orthodoxy via the Western tradition. It's just not a good measuring stick. I rather like the Right Rev. Bp. BASIL's attitude:

"You are the inheritors of a precious treasure: the authentic and Orthodox rites that nourished thousands now in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Orthodox Church thanks you for preserving this tradition all these years, so that it could be restored to her through Western Rite Orthodox parishes...I don’t care if Western Orthodoxy grows. Let me qualify that. This comment does not have to do just with the Western Rite, although I’m speaking in a Western Rite context now. I am not concerned about growth and numbers at all. Of course growth and numbers are good because they mean that more souls are being saved. In that sense I do hope that all come to the knowledge of the truth. And in that sense I am glad that so many people and parishes have become Western Orthodox.

But the worth and validity of the Western Rite do not depend on growth or numbers. What if only a single parish were to survive by God’s grace? What if somehow all of the seeds that you have planted and have tended for so long shrivel up, like many churches do in many places—Byzantine and Western Rite and Catholic and Lutheran and Methodist? If only one Western Orthodox parish flourishes someplace, then it is to the glory of God. It provides a home for someone of the Orthodox faith to worship God in a liturgical context in which they feel not only comfortable but authentic.

The faith that you hold, combined with the rite in which you practice that faith, is more important than anything else."
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« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2014, 10:28:57 AM »

Quote
"The medicine is already been prescribed. Return to the Pre-Schism West which the WR is. Whether Rome or anyone else takes their medicine is another issue entirely."

REPLY:  I agree.

"Im not saying they are, but Im saying that major problems can be corrected, and its not an insurmountable obstacle."

REPLY:  I agree.

"You said that you doubted that many souls have benefited. I asked for evidence. I wasn't calling you a hypocrite. I just asked for evidence to back up your assumption."

REPLY:  Re-read my post #74.  I said that "I have NO doubt that...."

"If you think I was attacking you I apologize. I was not."

REPLY:  I apologize as well.

"We dont have to "sell" it. We're not con men."

REPLY:  No, you aren't.  BUT, for the Western Rite to grow it has to be made to be seen as a viable alternative for Western Christians who for whatever reason are wary of Our Liturgy and Traditions.   I used the word sell to put it in more general layman's terms, although a better word could have been chosen.

"If those traditions are Orthodox then why not? The WR isn't like Rome where as long as you bow your knee to the Pope you can believe whatever you want."

REPLY: No argument here.

"The difference is pretty obvious. With Rome, you can believe whatever you wish, as long as you bow your knee to Rome. Melkites can believe all they want that the Pope is primus inter pares, while they bow their knee to him and obey his whims.
You and I are in complete agreement on alot of stuff it seems.

Quote
That is a bit of an oversimplification of the Latin position
You're absolutely correct, I am oversimplifying for conversation's sake.

Quote
They do have boundaries, although thos are being pushed further out as time goes on
The clown and guitar masses, along with the "Charismatic" Catholics prove this.

Quote
astern Catholics make the same claim about "keeping your traditions" but it is reversed.   This is the fact of the matter
You're correct, and unfortunately, no amount of arguing can change this, it seems.

Quote
This is within Canonical Orthodoxy, though
I thought that was what you were talking about. Sorry.

Quote
If I was a Traditionalist Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Western Rite Church opened up down the street, I would certainly get ticked off and view it as encroachment
I would totally see where a Roman Catholic was coming from if they complained about this.

Quote
How can the growth of the Western Rite occur without this clash?
I would assume, dont sheep steal, and just be open to disenfranchised Anglicans and Roman Catholics who are wanting to rid themselves of all the nonsense....of course that is again, an oversimplification on my part.

PP
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« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2014, 01:51:47 PM »

I am of the opinion that neither ER or WR Orthodoxy will grow very well in America until the Orthodox stop walking on eggshells with the Protestants and RCs and start preaching that one is not a true Christian unless they are united to Christ's bride. I pray both will flourish in our spiritually thirsty land.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2014, 03:12:31 PM »

I am of the opinion that neither ER or WR Orthodoxy will grow very well in America until the Orthodox stop walking on eggshells with the Protestants and RCs and start preaching that one is not a true Christian unless they are united to Christ's bride. I pray both will flourish in our spiritually thirsty land.

In Christ,
Andrew
^This.

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« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2014, 03:20:20 PM »

I am of the opinion that neither ER or WR Orthodoxy will grow very well in America until the Orthodox stop walking on eggshells with the Protestants and RCs and start preaching that one is not a true Christian unless they are united to Christ's bride. I pray both will flourish in our spiritually thirsty land.

In Christ,
Andrew


POTM ^
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« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2014, 05:43:17 PM »

I am of the opinion that neither ER or WR Orthodoxy will grow very well in America until the Orthodox stop walking on eggshells with the Protestants and RCs and start preaching that one is not a true Christian unless they are united to Christ's bride. I pray both will flourish in our spiritually thirsty land.

In Christ,
Andrew


POTM ^


It's a bold statement and the gist is true, but more and more folks in America have no church affiliation. From what I've seen, there is little being done for them.
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« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2014, 05:53:16 PM »

I am of the opinion that neither ER or WR Orthodoxy will grow very well in America until the Orthodox stop walking on eggshells with the Protestants and RCs and start preaching that one is not a true Christian unless they are united to Christ's bride. I pray both will flourish in our spiritually thirsty land.

In Christ,
Andrew


POTM ^


It's a bold statement and the gist is true, but more and more folks in America have no church affiliation. From what I've seen, there is little being done for them.
This is true, too, unfortunately. Sad

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2014, 04:12:50 PM »

That is something everyone wants to avoid. I cant speak for everyone, but in my town, there are 2 Orthodox churches. The Greek church has no priest, and only has services maybe twice a month. So quite a few come to our Church (especially on major feasts) but when a priest shows up there they go o their home church.

How do they like your church?
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« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2014, 10:34:50 PM »

If you have a list of legitimate Western customs, canons, etc. that you feel are disregarded or viewed as heterodox within Eastern Orthodoxy, or if you would compile such a list, I for one would be interested in reading it.  At least some of those things, I'm sure, would also affect us (OO): for example, none of our Churches prohibits multiple men from being ordained to the same rank within a single Liturgy (in fact, it is often done, even for the ordination of bishops).   

Unleavened bread for the Eucharist, Baptism by affusion, Icons not in conformity with Byzantine canons are three that seem to come up alot.

The Antiochian Western Rite uses leavened bread for the Eucharist. The Western Rite parish in Fort Worth has an adult sized Baptismal font for full immersion. If we took all the icons out of Byzantine Rite Churches that do not conform to Byzantine standards, there would be a lot of older Byzantine Rite Orthodox Churches without icons.

Fr.  John W. Morris
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« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2014, 12:10:32 PM »

That is something everyone wants to avoid. I cant speak for everyone, but in my town, there are 2 Orthodox churches. The Greek church has no priest, and only has services maybe twice a month. So quite a few come to our Church (especially on major feasts) but when a priest shows up there they go o their home church.

How do they like your church?
They love it, because we're all pretty tightly knit to one degree or another. Not only that, but we're active in the life of our Church. A bunch show up for major feast days, because they feel that we really celebrate the feasts as we should. This all being said, not alot have truly joined because St. George's (the Greek Church) is their church, but they recognize that we're all Orthodox so we're all members of the Body regardless.

Unfortunately, they never stay long enough to teach me how to make proper Dolmathes Smiley

PP
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« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2014, 05:22:18 PM »

WR has not caused any fuss? Glad to hear it.
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« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2014, 07:23:10 PM »

Though I know that there is important theology and practices involved, Primuspilus comment illustrates that some of the friction between western/eastern customs/rites is politics amongst the hierarchy and particular apologist that the average lay people can not be as concerned with. People can come together if they are allowed to and have leaders willing to do it.
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« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2014, 07:27:54 PM »

My own parish priest seems to view the WR as a liturgical rite alone.

IMO a good approach. WRO should draw from Eastern sources and ERO should draw from Western sources. The teaching of Church is neither Western nor Eastern but Catholic. I like how bishop Jerome put it:

Quote from: Bishop Jerome of Manhattan
In other words, to be Orthodox means to be in union with the whole Orthodox Church, and to accept all of its heritage.

Christianity is Catholic, as you say, but it is also a Middle Eastern religion.
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« Reply #105 on: January 13, 2014, 09:08:49 AM »

WR has not caused any fuss? Glad to hear it.
Well, that's not ENTIRELY accurate. There have been a few folks who have come in, expecting the Liturgy they know, and have never heard of the Western Rite, and leave very quickly, thinking us a schismatic group, or stay and ask us how we can be called Orthodox and not use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

This comes usually from folks who are visiting town and see that St. George's is closed (which it often times, is) so they come to our church.

For the local Roman Catholic churches, they tend to be really cool about it all. Some have inquired, but I dont know if any have joined.

PP
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« Reply #106 on: January 13, 2014, 03:31:38 PM »

WR has not caused any fuss? Glad to hear it.
Well, that's not ENTIRELY accurate. There have been a few folks who have come in, expecting the Liturgy they know, and have never heard of the Western Rite, and leave very quickly, thinking us a schismatic group, or stay and ask us how we can be called Orthodox and not use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

This comes usually from folks who are visiting town and see that St. George's is closed (which it often times, is) so they come to our church.

For the local Roman Catholic churches, they tend to be really cool about it all. Some have inquired, but I dont know if any have joined.

PP

May I suggest that you put the name of the Archdiocese, the Metropolitan and your Bishop  on your sign and in the bulletin so that people will know that you are canonically Orthodox. We had a Western Rite Vespers service at the Archdiocesan convention, but most Eastern Orthodox including those in the Antiochian Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite have never actually attended a Western Rite service. I have only been to a few Vespers and 2 Western Rite Divine Liturgies during 34 years as an Antiochian Orthodox Priest.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2014, 09:03:26 AM »

WR has not caused any fuss? Glad to hear it.
Well, that's not ENTIRELY accurate. There have been a few folks who have come in, expecting the Liturgy they know, and have never heard of the Western Rite, and leave very quickly, thinking us a schismatic group, or stay and ask us how we can be called Orthodox and not use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

This comes usually from folks who are visiting town and see that St. George's is closed (which it often times, is) so they come to our church.

For the local Roman Catholic churches, they tend to be really cool about it all. Some have inquired, but I dont know if any have joined.

PP

May I suggest that you put the name of the Archdiocese, the Metropolitan and your Bishop  on your sign and in the bulletin so that people will know that you are canonically Orthodox. We had a Western Rite Vespers service at the Archdiocesan convention, but most Eastern Orthodox including those in the Antiochian Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite have never actually attended a Western Rite service. I have only been to a few Vespers and 2 Western Rite Divine Liturgies during 34 years as an Antiochian Orthodox Priest.

Fr. John W. Morris
We have the name of the Archdiocese and the Rite. I think we have Met. Phillip's name somewhere, but I dont recall.

PP
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« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2014, 10:16:51 AM »

WR has not caused any fuss? Glad to hear it.
Well, that's not ENTIRELY accurate. There have been a few folks who have come in, expecting the Liturgy they know, and have never heard of the Western Rite, and leave very quickly, thinking us a schismatic group, or stay and ask us how we can be called Orthodox and not use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Fr. John W. Morris
This comes usually from folks who are visiting town and see that St. George's is closed (which it often times, is) so they come to our church.

For the local Roman Catholic churches, they tend to be really cool about it all. Some have inquired, but I dont know if any have joined.

PP

May I suggest that you put the name of the Archdiocese, the Metropolitan and your Bishop  on your sign and in the bulletin so that people will know that you are canonically Orthodox. We had a Western Rite Vespers service at the Archdiocesan convention, but most Eastern Orthodox including those in the Antiochian Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite have never actually attended a Western Rite service. I have only been to a few Vespers and 2 Western Rite Divine Liturgies during 34 years as an Antiochian Orthodox Priest.

Fr. John W. Morris
We have the name of the Archdiocese and the Rite. I think we have Met. Phillip's name somewhere, but I dont recall.

PP

Eastern Orthodox do not like change or anything that is different from what they are used to seeing and experiencing. Because only about 10% of the Antiochian Archdiocese is Western Rite, most Orthodox, even those in our Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite, do not know that there is even  Western Rite Orthodoxy. I suspect that those who are not in the two American Orthodox Churches with the Western Rite, us and ROCOR know that there are Western Rite parishes within Orthodoxy. I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite.
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« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2014, 10:22:04 AM »

Quote
Because only about 10% of the Antiochian Archdiocese is Western Rite, most Orthodox, even those in our Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite, do not know that there is even  Western Rite Orthodoxy
Judging by some folk's responses, quite a few that do know about it try to explain away its Orthodoxy (and orthodoxy).

Quote
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

PP
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« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2014, 10:35:26 AM »

Quote
Because only about 10% of the Antiochian Archdiocese is Western Rite, most Orthodox, even those in our Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite, do not know that there is even  Western Rite Orthodoxy
Judging by some folk's responses, quite a few that do know about it try to explain away its Orthodoxy (and orthodoxy).

Quote
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

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The more Eastern Rite Orthodox are exposed to the beauty of the Western Rite, the more will accept it as Orthodox.

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« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2014, 11:41:51 AM »

Quote
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
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« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2014, 12:53:11 PM »

Quote
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.

If you are asking me. I have been a Byzantine Rite Eastern Orthodox Priest for almost 34 years. I have had only limited experience with Western Rite Orthodoxy. I would have have no idea how to serve the Western Rite or do the chant properly. I only know the Antiochian expression of the Byzantine Rite. I have been to 2 Armenian Liturgies and several Coptic Liturgies. I have never been to a Syriac Rite Liturgy.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2014, 01:34:50 PM »

Would you like to serve in WR? Would you need any special permission from your bishop to do that?
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« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2014, 01:56:50 PM »

Would you like to serve in WR? Would you need any special permission from your bishop to do that?

I would need special permission to serve the Western Rite. I would also have to receive proper training to know how to do it. I have the Western Rite liturgical books, but reading rubrics and seeing it actually done are two separate things. The Western Rite has its own traditions. For example, the way that they cense is different. I have no idea how to chant properly in the Western tradition. The same thing would be true for a Western Rite Priest, before he could serve the Byzantine Rite, he would have to be properly trained.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #115 on: January 14, 2014, 03:13:41 PM »

If you are asking me. I have been a Byzantine Rite Eastern Orthodox Priest for almost 34 years. I have had only limited experience with Western Rite Orthodoxy. I would have have no idea how to serve the Western Rite or do the chant properly. I only know the Antiochian expression of the Byzantine Rite. I have been to 2 Armenian Liturgies and several Coptic Liturgies. I have never been to a Syriac Rite Liturgy.

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Sorry, Father, my question was for primuspilus (but I was glad to read your reply anyway!). 
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« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2014, 12:05:01 PM »

Quote
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
I have never been to an ER anything. Vespers, Liturgy, nothing...well, almost nothing.

When I was a Baptist missionary in Russia, we accidentally stumbled in on a Patriarchial Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Dormition, but I had no idea what was going on.

PP
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« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2014, 12:42:18 PM »

Quote
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
I have never been to an ER anything. Vespers, Liturgy, nothing...well, almost nothing.

When I was a Baptist missionary in Russia, we accidentally stumbled in on a Patriarchial Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Dormition, but I had no idea what was going on.

PP

Actually if you outline the Western Rite Mass and compare it to an outline of the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy, you will see that the outline is identical. We Easterners just fill in the blanks differently.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2014, 12:55:12 PM »

Quote
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
I have never been to an ER anything. Vespers, Liturgy, nothing...well, almost nothing.

When I was a Baptist missionary in Russia, we accidentally stumbled in on a Patriarchial Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Dormition, but I had no idea what was going on.

PP

Actually if you outline the Western Rite Mass and compare it to an outline of the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy, you will see that the outline is identical. We Easterners just fill in the blanks differently.

Fr. John W. Morris

This this this this this! Time eleventy billion. THIS.
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« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2014, 01:18:13 PM »

Quote
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
I have never been to an ER anything. Vespers, Liturgy, nothing...well, almost nothing.

When I was a Baptist missionary in Russia, we accidentally stumbled in on a Patriarchial Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Dormition, but I had no idea what was going on.

PP

Actually if you outline the Western Rite Mass and compare it to an outline of the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy, you will see that the outline is identical. We Easterners just fill in the blanks differently.

Fr. John W. Morris
Thats what a group of Greeks visiting from New Jersey told us. St. George's was closed and they came to our parish. They loved it and said every time they're down here they're coming to our parish.

Too bad not all ER's understand this. Even some priests, unfortunately.

PP
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« Reply #120 on: January 15, 2014, 01:47:36 PM »

Quote
Because only about 10% of the Antiochian Archdiocese is Western Rite, most Orthodox, even those in our Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite, do not know that there is even  Western Rite Orthodoxy
Judging by some folk's responses, quite a few that do know about it try to explain away its Orthodoxy (and orthodoxy).

Quote
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

PP
the only difference my sons commented on was a) the flat Eucharist, b) it was shorter.

One of the services we went to they had instrumental music, which they immediately noticed.

Other than that, no difference.
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« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2014, 02:04:19 PM »

Is it true that the WR eucharist uses leavened bread flattened to look like azymes?
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« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2014, 02:27:54 PM »

Quote
the only difference my sons commented on was a) the flat Eucharist, b) it was shorter
Yeah, ours is like a rectangular shape.

Quote
One of the services we went to they had instrumental music, which they immediately noticed
We use an electric keyboard in only 2 places. One, a single note is played to signify the beginning note of a chant. Second, a 1 or 2 bar into when we are singing a hymn from the hymnal, since many in our parish never sang a capella. After the intro, its no music at all.

Quote
Is it true that the WR eucharist uses leavened bread flattened to look like azymes?
Before the Body is broken into pieces, which are rectangular in shape, it looks like .

PP
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« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2014, 02:51:33 PM »

Before the Body is broken into pieces, which are rectangular in shape, it looks like .

This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
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« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2014, 03:02:27 PM »

Quote
This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
I honestly, have no answer for you. They just look small and circular. I wasn't trying to say they were azymes or anything. My priest says, "Behold the Lamb of God; behold him that takest away the sins of the world" and thats it for me. I don't really think about the other stuff.

PP
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« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2014, 03:18:55 PM »

Quote
This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
I honestly, have no answer for you. They just look small and circular. I wasn't trying to say they were azymes or anything. My priest says, "Behold the Lamb of God; behold him that takest away the sins of the world" and thats it for me. I don't really think about the other stuff.

PP

Yeah, we use the same thing: leavened bread in the shape of the wafers typically used in the West. I'm guessing the idea is to use leavened bread in conformity with Orthodox custom and belief, but in the shape and style long seen in the West. Never actually heard an explanation of this, but I've always just assumed it was one example of the slight modifications made to the Roman liturgy and rubrics in order to bring them into conformity with Orthodox belief and practice. Makes sense to me.
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« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2014, 03:23:37 PM »

Quote
This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
I honestly, have no answer for you. They just look small and circular. I wasn't trying to say they were azymes or anything. My priest says, "Behold the Lamb of God; behold him that takest away the sins of the world" and thats it for me. I don't really think about the other stuff.

PP

Yeah, we use the same thing: leavened bread in the shape of the wafers typically used in the West. I'm guessing the idea is to use leavened bread in conformity with Orthodox custom and belief, but in the shape and style long seen in the West. Never actually heard an explanation of this, but I've always just assumed it was one example of the slight modifications made to the Roman liturgy and rubrics in order to bring them into conformity with Orthodox belief and practice. Makes sense to me.
Yeah, I never knew it was even an issue. Is Intinction an issue as well? Serious question.

PP
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« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2014, 03:28:05 PM »

Quote
This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
I honestly, have no answer for you. They just look small and circular. I wasn't trying to say they were azymes or anything. My priest says, "Behold the Lamb of God; behold him that takest away the sins of the world" and thats it for me. I don't really think about the other stuff.

PP

Yeah, we use the same thing: leavened bread in the shape of the wafers typically used in the West. I'm guessing the idea is to use leavened bread in conformity with Orthodox custom and belief, but in the shape and style long seen in the West. Never actually heard an explanation of this, but I've always just assumed it was one example of the slight modifications made to the Roman liturgy and rubrics in order to bring them into conformity with Orthodox belief and practice. Makes sense to me.
Yeah, I never knew it was even an issue. Is Intinction an issue as well? Serious question.

PP

Yeah, leavened vs. unleavened bread was one of the controversies at issue around the time of the schism.

I don't think intinction is a problem, as that's how every Orthodox church I've been to administers the sacrament. I've attended the Divine Liturgy at several ER parishes and they all mix the bread and wine in a cup and give it to the hateful on a spoon. The spoon is the only part that's different. My priest dips a piece of the bread in the wine and places on our tongue by hand.
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« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2014, 03:40:01 PM »

Quote
This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
I honestly, have no answer for you. They just look small and circular. I wasn't trying to say they were azymes or anything. My priest says, "Behold the Lamb of God; behold him that takest away the sins of the world" and thats it for me. I don't really think about the other stuff.

PP

Yeah, we use the same thing: leavened bread in the shape of the wafers typically used in the West. I'm guessing the idea is to use leavened bread in conformity with Orthodox custom and belief, but in the shape and style long seen in the West. Never actually heard an explanation of this, but I've always just assumed it was one example of the slight modifications made to the Roman liturgy and rubrics in order to bring them into conformity with Orthodox belief and practice. Makes sense to me.

Do you realize that you are equating Orthodox with Eastern here? Azymes were in use the West well before the schism.
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« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2014, 04:01:29 PM »

Quote
This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
I honestly, have no answer for you. They just look small and circular. I wasn't trying to say they were azymes or anything. My priest says, "Behold the Lamb of God; behold him that takest away the sins of the world" and thats it for me. I don't really think about the other stuff.

PP

Yeah, we use the same thing: leavened bread in the shape of the wafers typically used in the West. I'm guessing the idea is to use leavened bread in conformity with Orthodox custom and belief, but in the shape and style long seen in the West. Never actually heard an explanation of this, but I've always just assumed it was one example of the slight modifications made to the Roman liturgy and rubrics in order to bring them into conformity with Orthodox belief and practice. Makes sense to me.

Do you realize that you are equating Orthodox with Eastern here? Azymes were in use the West well before the schism.

Oops, sorry bout that. Yes, it was the Eastern practice before the schism. Since then, it's simply been the Orthodox practice. Of course, even at the time, I believe the contention was that it wasn't just an Eastern practice, but was another area where the Western church had deviated from normative faith and practice. I don't recall it off the top of my head, but believe there was some theological reasoning behind the use of leavened bread.
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« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2014, 04:05:12 PM »

Re: leavened bread, this is helpful: http://www.prosphora.org/page27.html
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« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2014, 04:07:17 PM »

Quote
This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
I honestly, have no answer for you. They just look small and circular. I wasn't trying to say they were azymes or anything. My priest says, "Behold the Lamb of God; behold him that takest away the sins of the world" and thats it for me. I don't really think about the other stuff.

PP

Yeah, we use the same thing: leavened bread in the shape of the wafers typically used in the West. I'm guessing the idea is to use leavened bread in conformity with Orthodox custom and belief, but in the shape and style long seen in the West. Never actually heard an explanation of this, but I've always just assumed it was one example of the slight modifications made to the Roman liturgy and rubrics in order to bring them into conformity with Orthodox belief and practice. Makes sense to me.

Do you realize that you are equating Orthodox with Eastern here? Azymes were in use the West well before the schism.

Oops, sorry bout that. Yes, it was the Eastern practice before the schism. Since then, it's simply been the Orthodox practice. Of course, even at the time, I believe the contention was that it wasn't just an Eastern practice, but was another area where the Western church had deviated from normative faith and practice. I don't recall it off the top of my head, but believe there was some theological reasoning behind the use of leavened bread.
I think its because the Last Supper was in the evening, so leavened bread would naturally be used.
PP
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« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2014, 05:44:56 PM »

I did learn that intinction was a normal practice in the latin rite as well toward the 11th century.
Apparently Cardinal Humberts objections to it around 1054 were laughed off in France and other areas where it had become and continued to be the normal practice as well. I don't know the full details but certainly intinction remained common in much of the latin west for at least two more centuries if not longer...

Quote
on either side to seize upon points of difference hitherto ignored or at least regarded as unimportant in order to emphasize the growing antagonism For example the use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist having become fairly general in the West by the end of the ninth century this was later elevated into a serious matter of disagreement between the Greeks and Latins by partisans on both sides 1 Similarly when Cardinal Humbert bishop of Silva Candida and papal legate was busy collecting pretexts for abuse of the Easterns he condemned intinction and the delivery of the sacrament in a spoon as undesirable customs that traversed the commands given at the institution of the Eucharist He asserts that in the West the Bread and the Wine are administered separately 2 This statement which denies the existence of intinction among the Latins is hard to reconcile with the facts of the case for undoubtedly the practice was in full vigour in many parts of the West at this time But his remarks serve to show how the custom would soon cease to be viewed as a matter of indifference when the absence of intinction could be cited in controversy with the Greeks This consideration would therefore help to account for the growing disfavour with which the practice came to be regarded in the West Yet this was after all a minor point In any case intinction stood condemned as soon as ever the implications of concomitance were worked out Moreover toward the end of on either side to seize upon points of difference hitherto ignored or at least regarded as unimportant in order to emphasize the growing antagonism For example the use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist having become fairly general in the West by the end of the ninth century this was later elevated into a serious matter of disagreement between the Greeks and Latins by partisans on both sides 1 Similarly when Cardinal Humbert bishop of Silva Candida and papal legate was busy collecting pretexts for abuse of the Easterns he condemned intinction and the delivery of the sacrament in a spoon as undesirable customs that traversed the commands given at the institution of the Eucharist He asserts that in the West the Bread and the Wine are administered separately 2 This statement which denies the existence of intinction among the Latins is hard to reconcile with the facts of the case for undoubtedly the practice was in full vigour in many parts of the West at this time But his remarks serve to show how the custom would soon cease to be viewed as a matter of indifference when the absence of intinction could be cited in controversy with the Greeks This consideration would therefore help to account for the growing disfavour with which the practice came to be regarded in the West Yet this was after all a minor point In any case intinction stood condemned as soon as ever the implications of concomitance were worked out Moreover toward the end of the eleventh and during the early part of the succeeding century teachers like Hildebert of Tours and Anselm were asserting the doctrine in plainer terms than had ever been used before while in certain localities zealous ecclesiastics were ready to carry the implication of this teaching to practical conclusions For some time however intinction did not lack supporters and apologists Bishop John of Avranches 1069 for example while forbidding the clergy to receive intincted Hosts defended the practice of communicating the people in this manner 1 That is to say he approved of the common Gallican usage of the preceding century such as is described in the Codex Rato di 2 in which the bishop is ordered to communicate the clergy above the rank of subdeacon with the separate species while the subdeacons and by inference all subordinate orders and lay folk receive an intincted Host 3 His defence of intinction is as usual made to rest upon an exaggerated fear of risk in administering the chalice to the laity Anxiety on this score and the desire to avoid other forms of involuntary irreverence which had already been the cause of several modifications in the administration of the chalice were reinforced by the steadily growing acceptance of transubstantiation as the doctrine of the Church.,

It was obviously open to an opponent of intinction to retort that the better way was to omit the second species altogether from the lay folks houselling since all were agreed that reception in the one kind was enough to procure the benefits of communion 1 This argument indeed finally prevailed But a worthy champion for intinction was found in the person of Ernulph Bishop of Rochester Early in the twelfth century he wrote a defence of the practice in reply to a correspondent who had asked him the reason why the communion was commonly delivered in a conjoint manner Ernulph admits that the custom then in daily use was of comparatively recent growth but he justifies it in a very able fashion He draws attention to the fact that in instituting the sacraments our Saviour commands what we are to do but leaves the manner of doing it to the discretion of the Church No one is scandalized because customs and ceremonies have developed in connection with baptism and the divine command to baptize contains no regulations about triple or simple immersion As to the mere fact of mingling the two sacred species of the Eucharist a priest does this whenever he performs the commixture and no exception can be taken therefore to the act in itself Then of course there is the objection that the conjoint sacrament resembles the sop given to the traitor But if this is allowed to have weight we must be consistent and not only never use sops at our meals but also abolish the kiss of peace because by a kiss Judas betrayed his Lord Every one knows that men's beards and moustaches are apt to be a cause of unintentional irreverence at communion when the chalice is used and it is not to be expected that a priest should housel some of his flock in one way and some in another Intinction seems to be a natural and reverent way of delivering the sacrament If it is still further urged that a papal decree can be quoted against it there are other cases of such decrees 157 being overruled by the practice of the Church The section of Ernulph's letter dealing with these points is subjoined at length below for it is written with independence of judgement and practical wisdom beyond the common 1

Quote
1 Ep nt II ad Lambertum

Prima ergo posita est percunctatio de sacra men to altaris ita proposita ut quaeratur cur hodierna ecclesiae consuetudo alio et pene contrario ritu censeat porrigi corpus dominicum quam a domino in coena discipulis suis fuerit distributum Id enim quotidianus ecclesiae praetendit usus ut tribuatur hostia sanguine intincta cum a domino prius corpus deinde sanguis porrectus fuisse metnoretur Quem etiam morem ecclesiae ex decretis Julii papae nitimini improbare quibus idem papa dominicum commendat ordinem et apostolica confidentia ecclesiasticam arguit dispositionem adjiciens intinctam panis buccellam dominum proditori suo contulisse De cuius dubietatis ambiguitate quod intelligimus quod a nostris doctoribus accepimus edicere parati iumus

    "Redemptor noster veniens in mundum quia propter hominum salutem inter homines apparuit quaeque reparationi infirmitatis humanae commoda seu necessaria fore praevidit sicut oportere vidit in sapientia sua ita ab hoininibus fieri et esse voluit in ecclesia sua Haec eis cum quibus conver sari dignatus est verbo vel exemplo insinuavit quae facienda erant docens certum quo facienda erant modo praefigere omittens Hinc esse videtur quod ait hoc facite in meam commemorationem Non ait hoc modo facite Et ite baptizate omnes gentes in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritiit Sancti Non ait hoc modo baptizate non ait semel mergite aut tertio mergite Non ait scrutinium facite chrisma sacrate Qua in re insinuasse videtur quae praecepta sunt non fieri non licere pro ratione vero necessitatis vel honestatis alio et alio modo fieri licere Qui ergo quaerit cur non accipiantur exemplo dominico singulatim quae de altari sumuntur nova consuetudine simul mixta simili ratione quaerere potest cur non sumantur in simili loco aut de simili mensa vel in simili forma aut cur etiam aliud sumatur videlicet aqua quae a domino non legitur in coena esse porrecta Si vero ea necessartis causis intelligit rationabiliter esse parta ac reperta noverit et ea de quibus quaeritur et cur aliter fiant quam a domino facta sunt inquiritur ratione non inferiori esse comparata Porro cur miratur quispiam quod sacramenta porriguntur simul mixta Nonne indesinenter in dominici corporis et sanguinis consecratione diviso corpore in tres partes una a sacerdote videlicet quae ab ipso sumenda est in calice reservatur sanguini admiscetur sanguine infunditur cum sanguine sumitur Quis sacerdotem peccare dicat dum in quotidiano tanti mysterii officio carnem cum sanguinis suscipit admixtione Si ergo bonum est sumere hostiam sanguine infusam malum erit sumere hostiam sanguine intinctam Quod qui malum non esse agnoverit desinet mirari cum ratione factum esse cognoverit Arguitur iste mos ex eo quod buccellae intinctae a domino traditori suo porrectae similitudinem videtur habere Id si diligenter inspiciatur nihil dignum reprehensione continere videbitur Si enim exteriora pensentur nemo dicet justum hominem edere non debere panem intinctum in sua coena quia id proditor manducavit Judas in dominica coena Aut nemo ideo non dabit osculum pacis quia Judas osculo dedit"
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« Reply #133 on: January 15, 2014, 08:26:36 PM »

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This is a bit puzzling to me. If azymes are okay, why is this leavened? If azymes are not okay, why do you want your bread to look like them?
I honestly, have no answer for you. They just look small and circular. I wasn't trying to say they were azymes or anything. My priest says, "Behold the Lamb of God; behold him that takest away the sins of the world" and thats it for me. I don't really think about the other stuff.

PP

Yeah, we use the same thing: leavened bread in the shape of the wafers typically used in the West. I'm guessing the idea is to use leavened bread in conformity with Orthodox custom and belief, but in the shape and style long seen in the West. Never actually heard an explanation of this, but I've always just assumed it was one example of the slight modifications made to the Roman liturgy and rubrics in order to bring them into conformity with Orthodox belief and practice. Makes sense to me.

Do you realize that you are equating Orthodox with Eastern here? Azymes were in use the West well before the schism.

Oops, sorry bout that. Yes, it was the Eastern practice before the schism. Since then, it's simply been the Orthodox practice. Of course, even at the time, I believe the contention was that it wasn't just an Eastern practice, but was another area where the Western church had deviated from normative faith and practice. I don't recall it off the top of my head, but believe there was some theological reasoning behind the use of leavened bread.
I think its because the Last Supper was in the evening, so leavened bread would naturally be used.
PP

Not necessarily. St. John 18:28 The Mystical Supper took place before the actual Passover. do He would have used leavened bread. We use leavened bread because we partake of the resurrected living Body of Christ.  Originally event the West used leavened bread for the Eucharist.

Fr. John W. Morris
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Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
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« Reply #134 on: January 15, 2014, 08:29:38 PM »

I will always believe it is an error to use unleavened bread for the eucharist, without being actually heretical, I view it as inadviseable done out of ignorance or some other reason. It remains a legitimate sacrament nevertheless.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 08:30:29 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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