OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 22, 2014, 04:38:41 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: In the Afterlife  (Read 3310 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
coptic orthodox boy
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« on: February 28, 2005, 04:48:26 PM »

IC XC NIKA

What exactly do OO Christians believe happens after death. Okay, this is my understanding, please correct if I have a misunderstanding.
Okay, when the person dies, he/she will be judged, and will either be in the state of Paradise or Hades. However, we still pray for the dead, that the Lord in His infinite mercy may still bring those souls that are in Hades to Paradise. When the Good Lord comes in His second coming, to judge the living and the dead, this will be the final judgement. Those souls that are in Paradise will make is to Heaven (or the New Jerusalem as the Apocalapse states Grin), while those souls in the state of Hades will fall into the Hell (or the Lake of Fire :flame:), where no prayers may be made for them, since the Last Judgement is the Final Judgement. Am I close, or am I wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off?

Also, what about the tollbooth theory? I've also heard that some Greek Orthodox Christians believe that when a person dies, his/her soul stays on earth for 40 days, then either enters the state of Paradise of Hades; is this anyway connected to the tollbooth theory? Do these have any place in OO?

Any good books on this topic would be appreciated.

copticorthodoxboy

p.s.  Anyone every see that anime, Spirited Away, and heard the theme song?  Man, I love it, Japanese has a very beautiful sound to it when it is sung.  Just fyi.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 05:00:58 PM by coptic orthodox boy » Logged
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2005, 07:16:13 PM »

Quote
However, we still pray for the dead, that the Lord in His infinite mercy may still bring those souls that are in Hades to Paradise.
The Coptic Church does not believe in salvation after life. We are not universalists.
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
coptic orthodox boy
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2005, 08:28:57 PM »

IC XC NIKA

Then why do we pray for the dead? I have heard that Pope Shenouda removed the prayer for the dead from the Liturgy, however, still within the Liturgy of St. Basil, as well as St. John Chrystotom, there are still prayers for the dead. Is this just a vain repetition for no real purpose?

Also, Pope Cyril VI was deeply moved by the writings of St. Isaac of Syria.  And after reading a short book of his writings, he seemed to believe that prayers offered for the dead were important.

copticorthodoxboy
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 08:31:19 PM by coptic orthodox boy » Logged
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2005, 08:43:13 PM »

There is a big difference between the prayer for the dead, or commemorating the dead, saints or not, and between praying for the spirits to be relocated from Hades to Paradise.
Salvation after death was NEVER a coptic practice or belief, nor was it ever included in a liturgy. It was part of a prayer, actually one sentence, in a prayer that was recited once a year on the Pentecost feast. It crept into some church books, but it was not a general practice. I was part of a church under Metropolitan Domadius in Egypt that never said this phrase. Sosalvation after death was NEVER part of any liturgy, and this prayer has no more weight than a private prayer or a inspirational song, for example. We reject the Purgatory, and salvation after death in any form is the same.

It is different than prayer in case of death , and it will do nothing to the person's salvation. It basically has the following purposes:
- Give comfort to the family, and this is not an issue to be neglected or ignore.
- It is like bringing flowers to a sick person. FLowers are a sign of good feelings, as we have no way to judge (except for certain cases) about his salvation, and we consider him one of us. Flowers will not cure the sick, but medicine will. The blood of Christ is the medicine, and the prayer for the dead is the flower.
- Commemoration of saints is to remember their deeds and take an example, and because they are in the Body of Christ and they intercede for us. This is a bigger topic that involves intercession and the concept of the One Body that is covered in volumes.

Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
coptic orthodox boy
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2005, 08:57:03 PM »

IC XC NIKA

Stavro

Okay, I'll talk to Abouna about this, because I must have gotten things really mixed up. 

However, how does the rest look?

I might want some EO input as well, since St. Isaac of Syria was apart of the EO Church, and his writings are deeply loved, most espically by the monks on Athos.

copticorthodoxboy
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,746


"And you shall call his name Jesus..."


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2005, 08:59:49 PM »

Actually, St. Isaac was not a part of the EO Church, but the Church of the East (Persian).  He is recognised by OO and EO. 
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.

Please, James, tell us more about women!
coptic orthodox boy
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2005, 09:02:07 PM »

IC XC NIKA

Thanks for the correction Mor.  Could you help explain this to me than.  Why prayers are offered for the dead?

copticorthodoxboy
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,746


"And you shall call his name Jesus..."


WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2005, 09:16:39 PM »

I hesitate to offer anything I'd call a definitive answer, but here are some initial thoughts.  With respect to Stavro, the reasoning he offers for praying for the dead sounds to me like something a Protestant might say and accept as a valid spin on praying for the dead.  I don't think it is universalism to say that through the mercy of God and the prayers of the Church, someone finding himself in Hades could be moved by God to Paradise (my understanding of universalism as condemned by the Church is that it is the notion that all without exception will be saved); I am not right now claiming to affirm or deny anything, I'm just saying that I don't see an inconsistency in this.  We pray for the dead that, through God's abundant mercy, they may receive the remission of their debts and the forgiveness of their sins, that they may have rest, and be delivered from endless condemnation, so that they and we may enjoy eternity with God.
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.

Please, James, tell us more about women!
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2005, 09:51:08 PM »

Quote
my understanding of universalism as condemned by the Church is that it is the notion that all without exception will be saved
Which is the same as to say that people who have died in sin or in heresy or not being even christians will end up in paradise. What is condemned is notion of Salvation after death, whether it is included in Universalism or not.
Quote
I am not right now claiming to affirm or deny anything, I'm just saying that I don't see an inconsistency in this

You are entitled to your views, but I would appreciate if the inconsistency is actually emphasized. I will show the inconsistency in the Salvation after death teaching, which is a very dangerous teaching. It gives comfort to those who have relatives, loved ones, friends who died in sin, to belief that one can really save them when they refused salvation on earth. It might be a comforting idea,and a lazy one as well for it will replace Evangelism with prayer after death by relatives, will replace good repentence with prayer after death by friends, and will basically ridicule the Cross in the most effective way,basically neglecting the salvic power of the blood of Christ .
Quote
the reasoning he offers for praying for the dead sounds to me like something a Protestant might say

I believe it is the other way round. I offer a consistent position, whereas the other party is influenced by Protestant inconsistencies regarding the Cross. Protestants do not know how to relate to the Cross, because they have no sacraments. Their view makes the Cross an historic event which they have no access to. They emphasize mercy on the expense of jstice. Orthodox, as you know, relate to the Cross through the Eucharist. Salvation after death takes the same position as Protestants take, denegrating the Cross into a historic event. Clearly there cannot be sacraments in Hell, so how can we understand salvation in Hell ?
Now, let us take a close look, and I believe we discussed it in some other topic on this forum and in another forum.

1) Salvation after death is unbiblical:

- Luke 16:19-31 : The story of Lazarus and the rich man, in which Abraham the Partiarch makes a clear statement that those in hell never cross over to the Kingdom and vise versa.
- Matthew 25:41 :Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Eternal means a one-way ticket, nothing can change it and this is the words of the Lord, the one true God.
Will God go back on his word ?
- (Revelation 20:10): And the Devil who deceived them was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever”.
Again, it is an eternal torment. The manner of the torment is of little importance, for I believe the torture of being away from the sightof God forever is enough.

These are only few biblical references, among an arsenal of them, to eternal torment in hell and the impossibility of transfer to Heaven that come to my mind.
 
2) Salvation after death renders the Cross unnecessary. For it makes sense that they have been casted into hell for sins that were not atoned, a life style of sinning, that has not been washed in the blood of Christ. There is no other way for salvation, nor is there any other reason for hell. Those in hell have no access to the Body and Blood, for there are no sacraments in Hell. Therefore, there is no possible way for atonement. By the way, this is the main reason why we reject the Purgatory, the purifying from sins through fire and torture or whatever. It neglects the Atonement of the Cross and makes it unnecessary and unsufficient.

3) The salvation after death idea makes it a two way highway. For I believe that those who held such view, must also believe in the free will in paradise as well. So, for the sake of argument, why can't a saved person in the Kingdom, by free will, sin and end up in hell ? What kind of life would it be in the Kingdom, if I can still sin ? Life of fear, terror and and continuation of the same on earth ....

4) What about Satan ? It might be beneficial to discuss that the view concerning the Dualism of Good and Evil was the view that led Origen (if these were his true teachings) and others to introduce salvation after death and these teachings were condemned. This view is suspecious of having Hell as a dominion of Satan. The starting point of these philosophers is wrong, because Satan has no dominion in Hell, but he is tortured as well and a subject, not a master. As such, the theory crumbles altoghether.

5) Salvation after death basically offers a very disfigured image of a God, who devised the Cross for salvation because He is fully just and fully merciful. The image of a King sitting on a throne contradicting himself and changing his ways and rendering decisions about salvation -against the free will of people who parished - makes the Cross ridiculus, unnecessary and unsufficient.

6) On what basis are prayers accepted for a person and rejected for another ? If all are accepted, then we have a Universalist theory. If there is bias, then what do we have except a biased God ?

7) Salvation after death, based on prayers, would make salvation based on arbitrary will of other people, not the strive of the person in question himself. If some sinner in hell has no one to pray for him, will he stay whereas other lucky sinners will benefit from the prayers of their loved ones.

Peace.
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
CyberSponge
A cybernetic sponge
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 58

OC.net


« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2005, 10:07:26 PM »

IC XC NIKA

What exactly do OO Christians believe happens after death.  Okay, this is my understanding, please correct if I have a misunderstanding.
Okay, when the person dies, he/she will be judged, and will either be in the state of Paradise or Hades.  However, we still pray for the dead, that the Lord in His infinite mercy may still bring those souls that are in Hades to Paradise.  When the Good Lord comes in His second coming, to judge the living and the dead, this will be the final judgement.  Those souls that are in Paradise will make is to Heaven (or the New Jerusalem as the Apocalapse states  Grin), while those souls in the state of Hades will fall into the Hell (or the Lake of Fire  :flame:), where no prayers may be made for them, since the Last Judgement is the Final Judgement.  Am I close, or am I wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off?

Also, what about the tollbooth theory?  I've also heard that some Greek Orthodox Christians believe that when a person dies, his/her soul stays on earth for 40 days, then either enters the state of Paradise of Hades; is this anyway connected to the tollbooth theory?  Do these have any place in OO?

Any good books on this topic would be appreciated.

copticorthodoxboy

p.s. Anyone every see that anime, Spirited Away, and heard the theme song? Man, I love it, Japanese has a very beautiful sound to it when it is sung. Just fyi.

Hi CopticOrthodoxBoy Smiley

For one thing, you totally neglected the resurrection, which was a huge focus of the gospel and the scriptures, along with our celebration of Pascha (not to mention our worship every Sunday!).  Any mention of the beliefs you focused on in your post is either hardly mentioned in the scriptures or any early church writings, or as in the case of the tollhouses, arguably not even mentioned (although there are mentions later on like in the 5th century and later, I think).

So I don't know if your summary is way off, but the differences between what you said and pre-Christian Greek teachings are hard for me to discern.  The resurrection is the difference, so focus on that. Smiley
Logged
coptic orthodox boy
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2005, 11:07:31 PM »

IC XC NIKA

Stavro

I asked the same question on Coptichymns, and here is how one replied:

Incidentally, Origen, Clement, and St. Gregory of Nyssa believed that our prayers for the dead in hell actually DO suffice, because they believed that hell was reformatory and not literally eternal....so if their reasonings are correct, there is no problem praying for the dead at all.

I believe St. Isaac of Syria feel into this same catagory, and if you wish, I will gladly give you some on his sayings for you to comptemplate.

Okay, now about your quotes from the Bible.



The verses from Luke, I can't really reply too. However, the verses from Matthew and Revelation all have to do with the Final Judgement, not the judgement that many will fall into once they die. I understand you concern, but it seems many Fathers agree with what I am trying to state, and many agree with what you are trying to say. However, from my understanding, Satan can't be saved, for he knew the complete consequences of his choice not to serve the Lord. However, lets say some Tibetan Buddhist, who has never heard of Christ, when he dies, is he going straight to Hades? Personally, I believe our Good Lord isn't blinded by literal texts from Scripture. This is just my opinion, which to me is backed by many Fathers.

CyberSpoonge

Thank you for your response; being a former Roman Catholic I sometimes put more contemplation into the Crucifixion than the Resurrection.
Finally, I suppose what happens after death is a mystery, and really can't be defined.

Also:

Dec 30, 2004 - 04:55 PM - Email to a Friend.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear all,

 Grab hold of something,.. Preferably something solid. 

Cos,.. I am about to say something which not many Orthodox are aware off, and usually qualify as "error" even tho it is quite Orthodox.

1) is there a purgatory?

Obviously,.. the Orthodox Tradition says "no"

2) can prayer help save those in hell?

From the Orthodox Tradition, again, the answer is yes. Since there is no purgatory, those who die in some sin or another have either Heaven or Hell awaiting them. If a Christian soul ends up in hell due to some sin than the prayers of the Church can indeed help save this soul.

3) does that imply universal salvation?

No. Not necessarily. The souls prayed for are precisely Christians, who have been baptized but perhaps could not confess their sins for one reason or another. They are not "lost" but they are not in Heaven either. Their sins brought them down to hell. For these the Church prays, in Liturgy (including the Coptic Church until such prayers were removed).

4) does Orthodoxy exclude universal salvation?

No, it does not. There have always been, and there still are Orthodox theologians who believe that all will be saved; even though they form a minority nowadays, which was different in the days of St. Augustine, a great amount of Christians believed in "universal salvation" in those times. The limit for Orthodoxy is not death, but "free-will" no-one can be saved without willing to be saved. Salvation is a free gift, not an enforced Divine policy.

We can pray for the salvation of all, but we cannot say that all must be saved. No-one is predestined to Heaven (in the Protestant sense). Heaven and/or Hell are very real, and sin does lead to Hell. An Orthodox universalism does not deny that, an Orthodox universalism denies that Hell is eternal with the same eternity as eternal life is eternal.

5 does Orthodoxy teach universal salvation?

No, it does not. Orthodoxy does not dogmatically exclude nor affirm universal salvation. Orthodox dogma affirms there will be a judgment and that there will be consequences attached to judgment. Whether salvation does or does not extend beyond this final judgment is not specified.

In the end

Both, the idea of universal salvation and the idea of eternal damnation are possibilities. There is no dogmatic favor bestowed on either of these two. So one can encounter the Orthodox idea that there is an eternal hell from which no salvation is possible, but one can also encounter the Orthodox idea that salvation from hell is possible, even for non-Christians. Tho the last option is often met by scorn and abusem it is nevertheless quite Orthodox.

IC XC

Grigorii

copticorthodoxboy


« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 11:20:34 PM by coptic orthodox boy » Logged
CyberSponge
A cybernetic sponge
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 58

OC.net


« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2005, 11:29:26 PM »

CyberSpoonge

Thank you for your response; being a former Roman Catholic I sometimes put more contemplation into the Crucifixion than the Resurrection.
Finally, I suppose what happens after death is a mystery, and really can't be defined.

copticorthodoxboy


Sure, no prob.  Now, I think that sometimes we focus on the resurrection at the expense of the crucifixion.  Both are important, and we should really make a point of understanding them both.  However, thinking/discussing theories about the soul is focussing on neither.  Although you're not entirely correct when you said that what happens after death is a mystery.  We DO know that there is a final judgement, and we DO know that there will be a resurrection before the final judgement, but with spiritual bodies (like the kind that Christ had after his resurrection, where it was still a body but not totally limited to all the constraints that we now have).  What happens to our psyche/soul is what we don't know much about for certain.

Have a great evening and day tomorrow!
Logged
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2005, 04:43:05 PM »

IC XC NIKA

Stavro

I asked the same question on Coptichymns, and here is how one replied:

Incidentally, Origen, Clement, and St. Gregory of Nyssa believed that our prayers for the dead in hell actually DO suffice, because they believed that hell was reformatory and not literally eternal....so if their reasonings are correct, there is no problem praying for the dead at all.

I believe St. Isaac of Syria feel into this same catagory, and if you wish, I will gladly give you some on his sayings for you to comptemplate.

Okay, now about your quotes from the Bible.



The verses from Luke, I can't really reply too.  However, the verses from Matthew and Revelation all have to do with the Final Judgement, not the judgement that many will fall into once they die.  I understand you concern, but it seems many Fathers agree with what I am trying to state, and many agree with what you are trying to say.  However, from my understanding, Satan can't be saved, for he knew the complete consequences of his choice not to serve the Lord.  However, lets say some Tibetan Buddhist, who has never heard of Christ, when he dies, is he going straight to Hades?  Personally, I believe our Good Lord isn't blinded by literal texts from Scripture.  This is just my opinion, which to me is backed by many Fathers.

CyberSpoonge

Thank you for your response; being a former Roman Catholic I sometimes put more contemplation into the Crucifixion than the Resurrection.
Finally, I suppose what happens after death is a mystery, and really can't be defined.

Also:

Dec 30, 2004 - 04:55 PM - Email to a Friend.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear all,

 Grab hold of something,.. Preferably something solid.

Cos,.. I am about to say something which not many Orthodox are aware off, and usually qualify as "error" even tho it is quite Orthodox.

1) is there a purgatory?

Obviously,.. the Orthodox Tradition says "no"

2) can prayer help save those in hell?

From the Orthodox Tradition, again, the answer is yes. Since there is no purgatory, those who die in some sin or another have either Heaven or Hell awaiting them. If a Christian soul ends up in hell due to some sin than the prayers of the Church can indeed help save this soul.

3) does that imply universal salvation?

No. Not necessarily. The souls prayed for are precisely Christians, who have been baptized but perhaps could not confess their sins for one reason or another. They are not "lost" but they are not in Heaven either. Their sins brought them down to hell. For these the Church prays, in Liturgy (including the Coptic Church until such prayers were removed).

4) does Orthodoxy exclude universal salvation?

No, it does not. There have always been, and there still are Orthodox theologians who believe that all will be saved; even though they form a minority nowadays, which was different in the days of St. Augustine, a great amount of Christians believed in "universal salvation" in those times. The limit for Orthodoxy is not death, but "free-will" no-one can be saved without willing to be saved. Salvation is a free gift, not an enforced Divine policy.

We can pray for the salvation of all, but we cannot say that all must be saved. No-one is predestined to Heaven (in the Protestant sense). Heaven and/or Hell are very real, and sin does lead to Hell. An Orthodox universalism does not deny that, an Orthodox universalism denies that Hell is eternal with the same eternity as eternal life is eternal.

5 does Orthodoxy teach universal salvation?

No, it does not. Orthodoxy does not dogmatically exclude nor affirm universal salvation. Orthodox dogma affirms there will be a judgment and that there will be consequences attached to judgment. Whether salvation does or does not extend beyond this final judgment is not specified.

In the end

Both, the idea of universal salvation and the idea of eternal damnation are possibilities. There is no dogmatic favor bestowed on either of these two. So one can encounter the Orthodox idea that there is an eternal hell from which no salvation is possible, but one can also encounter the Orthodox idea that salvation from hell is possible, even for non-Christians. Tho the last option is often met by scorn and abusem it is nevertheless quite Orthodox.

IC XC

Grigorii

copticorthodoxboy



I am part of coptichymns, and I have replied the same question. I will post the link to the previous topic that discussed this there so you might get the right Coptic Church position which I represent, and see the other Universalist Pluralist view and compare.

-Origen is not a Church father. A great theologian no doubt, a genius if you wish, but he is not infallible. It is this particular view that made his teachings condemned. His apologetics do not deny that this is a heresy, a great one, and that he is worthy of condemnation if he really wrote this. But they dispute the authorship of such books, and they bring many references to show that Origen never taught such dogmas and that these are foreign to his theology.

- Gregory of Nyssa view is rejected by the Church, and he is also not infallible. His theological starting point is the rejection of dualism in any part of the World, and as such, he rejects that Hell is a dominion and kindgom of Satan. It is a grave error in understanding the scripture and tradition, for Hell is a torment place for Satan.
He is a great philosopher, but his view on Universalism is a sad one. I always wondered how can Origen be condemned for teachings whereas Gregory of Nyssa is more Universalist than he was.

- There is no problem praying for the dead, for we do pray for them for the reason I showed above. But there is a problem, an ugly heresy, in believing in salvation after death. Which one are you discussing ?

- You said:''However, lets say some Tibetan Buddhist, who has never heard of Christ, when he dies, is he going straight to Hades?  Personally, I believe our Good Lord isn't blinded by literal texts from Scripture.''
Blinded ? How can this monk be saved without the Blood of Christ ? Is salvation based on works without faith ? Or is it a favor to God to act in goodliness that has to be repaid with salvation ? Why were the saints of the OT casted straight in Hell , for they are by far better than this Buddist monk ? Anything good this monk did will be rewarded on earth, but not in heaven. He might be good for you, but we have to be 100% to enter the heaven, which necessiates the blood of Christ.

I encourage you to read more about Salvation in the Orthodox Understanding.
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
coptic orthodox boy
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2005, 06:41:05 PM »

IC XC NIKA

Stavro

You're right, St. Gregory isn't infallible, however, neither is Pope Shenouda III.  I'm not you're saying he is, however, many early Fathers did say it was alright to pray for the dead.  In fact, from what I understand, many EO pray for the dead, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IT WILL BENEFIT THEIR (that is the deceased) SOUL.  Read "The Mountain of Silence", which was one of the first books I read on Orthodoxy.  I seem to also hold a similar view of what the monks on Athos teach. 
I wouldn't say that my understanding is "un-Orthodox", but that it is the rejected view, most espically amoung Copts, since the pope deleted the prayers for the dead in the Liturgy (which he considered "unbiblical").   In fact, to offer prayers for the dead is quite Biblical, which is why Jews celebrate Yom Kapor (sp?).  I'm sure you have heard the story.
With that said, I've talked to my FOC, and he has allowed me to pray for the dead, for the hope that it will benefit their souls.

copticorthodoxboy
Logged
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2005, 07:48:01 PM »

I am discussing Salvation after death, not prayer for the dead, for they are two different issues. I shall just discuss the former, as I did all along.

- I am not much concerned about your practice ar prayer, but please be very accurate when you include a piece of information about the Coptic Church. NEVER EVER WAS SALVATION AFTER DEATH INCLUDED IN ANY LITURGY. I pointed that out above, but it seems that you decided to neglect it. I am not concerned about what you believe, but I am very concerned about misleading others and make them believe that Salvation after death is a teachings ever embraced by the Coptic Church.

- The condemnation of such practice and teaching goes back to the very early church, namely St.Demetrius the Vinedresser who was the spiritual father of origen, yet condemned his teachings that contained this false teaching in the council of Alexandria in the first half of the third century. So it is not something that is invented by H.H. , he is simply confirming the faith. Please show me at which point did we embrace such heresy.

- The real reason for such heresy is nothing more but the having hard time accepting that loved one, who died in sin or in any heresy, are going to perish, so one decides to have a backdoor which is this view. That is why it is also very common among convert.

- We are not one church with the EO, and what they do is their own business. Although christological differences seem to be solved, I wonder what role such issues as Apokastasis and other differences will have if any union should ever be realized.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2005, 08:03:56 PM by Stavro » Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
J
(another Justin)
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 144

OC.net


« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2005, 08:32:56 PM »

I apologize for jumping in here with an irrelevant question, but has anyone here read a book, I think that the name of it is "Pachomios" and it's about the development of a 4th Century Egyptian community (probably of monks of Christians or something like that).  It's the only book in the Middle East School library with a cross on it!
Logged
coptic orthodox boy
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2005, 08:58:14 PM »

Stavro

Okay, you're right, I don't know exactly when the pope did this, however, I recieved this information from Grigorii from coptic hymns, so please, ask him, for he has repeated it many times; he is also a man of great knowlegde, and i enjoy reading his post often.

And you're also right that we are not one with the EO Church, however, many of our common Fathers teach this, and this is something you keep on denying. Not only that, but you seem to be considering (my opinion) that the Coptic position in the only position. I never said it was a dogma, however, there is no doubt that many saints wrote that prayers offered for the dead may benefit their souls.

Also, don't state just because I am a convert, I misunderstand.  What of St. Gregory, or St. Isaac of Syria.  These men weren't converts, yet my beliefs are closely connected to these saint's saying on the afterlife.

At any rate, Grigorii and myself seem to hold much of the same understanding, while you hold yours. In the end, you won't convince me, and I won't convince you.

In Christ,
copticorthodoxboy
« Last Edit: March 01, 2005, 09:05:03 PM by coptic orthodox boy » Logged
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2005, 09:50:50 PM »

Coptic Orthodox Boy,
not every quote by Church Fathers is right. St.Ireneous has a quote about Roman Supremacy and Papacy and it is rejected by OO. St.Jerome's writings are not accepted, and he had a lengthy and heated discussion with St.Augustine about the birth of the soul. St.Augustine teachings about grace, if taken out of context and not in relation to his fight against Pelagius, have a darker side.
As such are the writings of Gregory of Nyssa regarding this issue and they need to be studied after knowing what the seeds of his theology were. He is a great man , no doubt.
Quote
Not only that, but you seem to be considering (my opinion) that the Coptic position in the only position
In issues unrelated to salvation , different approaches are welcomed. In salvation related issues, there can only be one right position, for they have been handed down to the Apostles once and only once (Jude 3) and they lived through the Church till this day. This is the right understanding of Tradition. It is not acceptable to embrace two opposite opinions on the same matter, and that is more the case when salvation is at risk. This is the only way one can claim consistency.
As for what the EO believe, I asked once before about salvation after death in their theology and I did not get a definitive answer.
Quote
Okay, you're right, I don't know exactly when the pope did this, however, I recieved this information from Grigorii from coptic hymns, so please, ask him, for he has repeated it many times; he is also a man of great knowlegde, and i enjoy reading his post often.
First, you are right about Grigorii, he has great knowledge.
I am not sure what you refer to, but I know that the Coptic Church does not and has not accepted such view as a valid teaching, nor was it ever accepted.
Quote
Also, don't state just because I am a convert, I misunderstand.
I did not know that you were a convert. I must apologize for this. From your name, I thought you were Coptic, and they are 99% Orthodox. Many converts have enriched our church with their insights, because they have searched long enough to find the Faith and have accumulated a lot of knowledge and spiritual experience in the process. It is not misunderstanding lack of knowledge that I am talking about, it is more sentiments that give way to believing such teachings.

The practice itself is not objected to, but the idea of Salvation after death is dangerous.

Peace.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2005, 10:02:21 PM by Stavro » Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2005, 10:01:05 PM »

I apologize for jumping in here with an irrelevant question, but has anyone here read a book, I think that the name of it is "Pachomios" and it's about the development of a 4th Century Egyptian community (probably of monks of Christians or something like that). It's the only book in the Middle East School library with a cross on it!
Peace J ,
I am not sure which book you are talking about, but St.Pachomios is the father of the Canonia, one of the greatest fathers of monasticism in Egypt and whose order of monasticism has spread to Europe, Asia and many places and was followed for many centuries. In brief, he was a Coptic soldier in Maximinos Daza army and was converted due to the charity shown to him and his fellow soldiers on their way to war by a christian village. Deeply touched, he became a christian around 310 a.d. at his mid 20's, preached to his family and soon after went for monasticism. At that time, only the monastic order of St.Antony, hermits. After a broef discipleship under St.Palamon, he began to realize his dream abotu the life of Canonia. He established 12 monasteries along the river Nile for men and other monasteries for ladies with many rules that have been copied and transferred to the West.
He was ordained priest by St.Athanasius who visited his monastaries and died at the age of 54, and forever left a great legacy of spirituality, leadership and vision.

You might better luck if you search in the religious/theological section about books about churches or christianity in the Middle East, if that was your target. If not, I would be happy to suggest some books about the Church in the Middle East.
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
penelope
If I love the sea and all that is sealike, and love it most when it angrily contradicts me...
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134


OC.net


« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2005, 12:33:35 AM »

We DO know that there is a final judgement, and we DO know that there will be a resurrection before the final judgement, but with spiritual bodies (like the kind that Christ had after his resurrection, where it was still a body but not totally limited to all the constraints that we now have). What happens to our psyche/soul is what we don't know much about for certain.
I agree with this.  There is a lot of material in the Tradition about life after death, but it comes in unclear forms, mainly visions, parables, etc.  There's never been a dogmatic definition on these matters, and the material available has a number of different emphases.  I think, in talking about salvation in general, we should focus on the positive aspects, viz. salvation in Christ and its availability in the Church, rather than the negative.  There are a number of things which are necessary for salvation, but which God bypasses in some situations, eg. baptism (which sometimes has been replaced by the "baptism of blood").  Dogmas and Church practices are for us to be bound by, not for God to be bound by.
Logged

Let me love myself only if I love thee and do all things for thy sake.
CyberSponge
A cybernetic sponge
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 58

OC.net


« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2005, 02:45:56 PM »

Hi Penelope,

I agree with this. There is a lot of material in the Tradition about life after death, but it comes in unclear forms, mainly visions, parables, etc. There's never been a dogmatic definition on these matters, and the material available has a number of different emphases. I think, in talking about salvation in general, we should focus on the positive aspects, viz. salvation in Christ and its availability in the Church, rather than the negative. There are a number of things which are necessary for salvation, but which God bypasses in some situations, eg. baptism (which sometimes has been replaced by the "baptism of blood"). Dogmas and Church practices are for us to be bound by, not for God to be bound by.

Great post! Smiley

Yes, I guess the only reason I even bothered posting on this forum (other than to procrastinate from my work Wink ) is because what I saw in Coptic Orthodox Boy's post is something I seem to see a lot...either stating or wanting to know the most about something we know little about for sure, and adding things we do know about only at the end (and not as the main focus). I guess my other concern is that there does seem to be too much of a focus, among many, about beliefs of the soul, etc., that early christianity may very well have inherited from the Greek culture. The more I think about this, the more I'm amazed at how very little there can appear to be between the purported Christian view and popular religion. For many people, the idea that we have these wispy, bodiless souls that continue after we die, and are thrown into heaven or hell (or places similar), is tied to your belief in God, but really, I could have been a pagan Greek in 100 B.C. and believed essentially the same thing w/o believing in (one) God. When reading the scriptures, or reading early church fathers, the ENTIRE focus when discussing life after death is our resurrection (and not in some philosophical way...but in the real way like Christ was resurrected! see 1 Cor. 15). This is what the prophets described, this is what Christ and His apostles preached. So I try to focus on this, too. Smiley

Logged
Tags: afterlife salvation 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.104 seconds with 47 queries.