Author Topic: Capital punishment of heretics?  (Read 3555 times)

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Offline starodnevno

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Capital punishment of heretics?
« on: December 06, 2013, 01:12:39 PM »
I understand nowadays pretty much everyone supports religious tolerance and most Orthodox are against capital punishment for any crime but I'm confused by the fact that historically the Orthodox of the Byzantine Empire executed people for heresy. For example, Saint Justinian himself ordered the execution of a number of Manicheans and Saint Constantine did the same with Arianists, yet today, Orthodox even marry heretics. Who is doing things the wrong way here?

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2013, 01:32:25 PM »
Isn't the authentic tradition of the Holy Rus to exile heretics to some remote place in Siberia where they can do no harm?

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2013, 01:44:00 PM »
Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

They should feel very good about themselves - they succeeded. ::)

I honestly hope you're trolling us here.

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 01:46:31 PM »
Isn't the authentic tradition of the Holy Rus to exile heretics to some remote place in Siberia where they can do no harm?
Definitely. The tsars saw how awesome it worked with heretics so they started sending their rivals there. In no time at all Stalin wound up there. He learned too how "cool" it was out there, and then he started the GULAG. You can see how a good thing just keeps on giving.

Fortunately since Stalin's time Russia has felt it has had too much of this.
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2013, 01:46:46 PM »
I don't think the saints that you mentioned were necessarily holy at the time they did those things. This is a very common mistake. Plus, saints usually have something that is specific to each of them. Some are martyrs, others confessors, theologians, etc. So, their imperfections and virtues will vary greatly, as well. You can't expect St. Constantine to not behave like a Roman emperor.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 01:47:05 PM by IoanC »

Offline Punch

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2013, 02:16:17 PM »

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

I depends on if you want to be a martyr or if you want to stop the blasphemy.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline WPM

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2013, 02:56:26 PM »
Nowadays, the ramifications and punishments for heresy are a lot less severe. (You don't necessarily do anything)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 02:57:31 PM by WPM »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2013, 03:07:25 PM »
Nowadays, the ramifications and punishments for heresy are a lot less severe. (You don't necessarily do anything)

Incorrect. Nowadays people make angry posts on internet forums.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2013, 03:30:45 PM »
Isn't the authentic tradition of the Holy Rus to exile heretics to some remote place in Siberia where they can do no harm?
Definitely. The tsars saw how awesome it worked with heretics so they started sending their rivals there. In no time at all Stalin wound up there. He learned too how "cool" it was out there, and then he started the GULAG. You can see how a good thing just keeps on giving.

Fortunately since Stalin's time Russia has felt it has had too much of this.

I used to have a book ~ 'Russia Land of the Tsars' where it detailed Russian history. The historical period of Stalin's rule was in there too.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 03:32:48 PM by WPM »
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2013, 03:33:01 PM »
Isn't the authentic tradition of the Holy Rus to exile heretics to some remote place in Siberia where they can do no harm?
Definitely. The tsars saw how awesome it worked with heretics so they started sending their rivals there. In no time at all Stalin wound up there. He learned too how "cool" it was out there, and then he started the GULAG. You can see how a good thing just keeps on giving.

Fortunately since Stalin's time Russia has felt it has had too much of this.
Plus, global warming has lessened Siberia's effectiveness.
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2013, 03:43:50 PM »
Isn't the authentic tradition of the Holy Rus to exile heretics to some remote place in Siberia where they can do no harm?

Burning heretics at the stake was also common. That was the fate of many Old Believers, including Archpriest Avvakum (venerated as a martyr by Old Believers. Of course, Archpriest Avvakum was also exiled to Siberia beforehand.




Offline Arachne

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2013, 04:05:11 PM »

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

I depends on if you want to be a martyr or if you want to stop the blasphemy.

No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2013, 04:15:24 PM »
It might be worth pointing out that pre-Muscovite Rus' did not have capital punishment for any crime on the books (which doesn't mean that executions never happened). This was part of their Viking heritage and also, if it is to be believed, because St. Vlad didn't consider all the executions and mutilations of the Byzantine penal code to be especially Christian. (If your family member were killed, though, you had open season on the murderer).

Also, there's an old thread about this: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47708.0.html

It's not very long but there's a little bit of info there.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 04:15:52 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Punch

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2013, 04:26:05 PM »
No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

I have never seen anyone get any satisfaction from eating through a straw for a few weeks.  Maybe they do from whatever fantasyland you come from.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2013, 04:30:31 PM »
No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

I have never seen anyone get any satisfaction from eating through a straw for a few weeks.  Maybe they do from whatever fantasyland you come from.

I have never seen anyone get any satisfaction out of an assault lawsuit either, let alone jail time. Unless it's the kind of satisfaction they should confess.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2013, 04:41:18 PM »
No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

I have never seen anyone get any satisfaction from eating through a straw for a few weeks.  Maybe they do from whatever fantasyland you come from.

I have never seen anyone get any satisfaction out of an assault lawsuit either, let alone jail time. Unless it's the kind of satisfaction they should confess.

Witnesses are key here.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2013, 05:27:09 PM »
Okay, other than ecumenism THIS is the stuff where I can't even fathom anybody being RC or EO. (leave all other arguments of icons etc., aside)

How on Earth can a person justify setting another Christian on fire or executing them because they are "heretics"?   Old believers?  Yeah, you cross with two fingers and you get TORCHED.

This isn't the love of Christ.  This isn't loving your enemies.

This is the example of the Antichrist.

Any priests or bishops involved in this are servants of the antichrist.

I have books and books of how Christians were singing hymns until they were brought to the water and drowned, burned at the stake, taken to the rack, thumb screws, eye gouging, burning with torches, etc.

Christians do not do this to Christians.   I don't care if a church addresses somebody as a saint or not.  Those "saints" are only maintainers of the antichrist.  I am convinced Constantine was a maintainer of the Roman church of the antichrist.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 05:27:42 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2013, 05:36:40 PM »
Oh, YiM, you're just looking for reasons to defend your own departure from the Church.  By the standards you apply to Constantine, you'd also have to reject St Paul.  Have fun with that.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Offline Arachne

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2013, 05:39:35 PM »
No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

I have never seen anyone get any satisfaction from eating through a straw for a few weeks.  Maybe they do from whatever fantasyland you come from.

I have never seen anyone get any satisfaction out of an assault lawsuit either, let alone jail time. Unless it's the kind of satisfaction they should confess.

Witnesses are key here.

You can count on there being several. Bear-baiters love an audience.

Still, the OP seems to be conflating two different situations. The first part of the post is about heresy, the latter about blasphemy. Not all heretics (the way we define them, at least) blaspheme, while blasphemers are as likely (if not more so) to be nonbelievers, so the heresy clause becomes irrelevant.
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Offline Rufus

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2013, 05:41:20 PM »

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

I depends on if you want to be a martyr or if you want to stop the blasphemy.

No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

Wow, have you ever been picked on?

You sound like a teacher.

Jesus says to turn the other cheek, but I can tell you from experience the chances of achieving a positive outcome in this life by doing so are very low.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2013, 05:45:42 PM »
No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

I have never seen anyone get any satisfaction from eating through a straw for a few weeks.  Maybe they do from whatever fantasyland you come from.

I have never seen anyone get any satisfaction out of an assault lawsuit either, let alone jail time. Unless it's the kind of satisfaction they should confess.

Witnesses are key here.

What on earth is she talking about? Can you help me out?

Offline Arachne

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2013, 05:53:28 PM »

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

I depends on if you want to be a martyr or if you want to stop the blasphemy.

No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

Wow, have you ever been picked on?

You sound like a teacher.

Jesus says to turn the other cheek, but I can tell you from experience the chances of achieving a positive outcome in this life by doing so are very low.

I've been picked on. I've picked on others. I am a teacher. And that's exactly why I know there isn't just a bottomless pit of nothingness between silence and fisticuffs.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2013, 06:01:22 PM »

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

I depends on if you want to be a martyr or if you want to stop the blasphemy.

No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

Wow, have you ever been picked on?

You sound like a teacher.

Jesus says to turn the other cheek, but I can tell you from experience the chances of achieving a positive outcome in this life by doing so are very low.

I've been picked on. I've picked on others. I am a teacher. And that's exactly why I know there isn't just a bottomless pit of nothingness between silence and fisticuffs.

But what are you saying? And of course you are a teacher. I gotta update that list.

Offline starodnevno

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2013, 07:06:23 PM »
I honestly hope you're trolling us here.
No, I'm serious. I feel like I'm committing a sin by not doing anything to stop blasphemy and trying to solve the problem verbally doesn't seem to work.

Still, the OP seems to be conflating two different situations. The first part of the post is about heresy, the latter about blasphemy.
I'm aware of that, I'm merely noticing that some saints considered capital punishment acceptable for heresy so it made me wonder if punching someone for extreme blasphemy (which I consider worse than heresy) isn't all that bad.

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2013, 07:12:21 PM »
....
I'm aware of that, I'm merely noticing that some saints considered capital punishment acceptable for heresy so it made me wonder if punching someone for extreme blasphemy (which I consider worse than heresy) isn't all that bad.
Sounds like assault and battery to me.
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Offline Rufus

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2013, 08:19:27 PM »

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

I depends on if you want to be a martyr or if you want to stop the blasphemy.

No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

Wow, have you ever been picked on?

You sound like a teacher.

Jesus says to turn the other cheek, but I can tell you from experience the chances of achieving a positive outcome in this life by doing so are very low.

I've been picked on. I've picked on others. I am a teacher. And that's exactly why I know there isn't just a bottomless pit of nothingness between silence and fisticuffs.

IMUE teachers tend to effectively punish the victim by telling him/her that if they are being mistreated, it is because they are not quite ignoring it the right way or something. They are wrong. A fairer course of action would be for the teacher to punish the aggressor. Otherwise, you are teaching the kids the necessity of retaliation and the impotence of authority figures, the latter of which is an important lesson anyway.

Offline Rufus

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2013, 08:21:51 PM »
I'm aware of that, I'm merely noticing that some saints considered capital punishment acceptable for heresy so it made me wonder if punching someone for extreme blasphemy (which I consider worse than heresy) isn't all that bad.

I'm trying to think of the last time I saw someone throw a punch over blasphemy. Are you just very exceptional or something?

Offline Arachne

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2013, 08:25:24 PM »

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

I depends on if you want to be a martyr or if you want to stop the blasphemy.

No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

Wow, have you ever been picked on?

You sound like a teacher.

Jesus says to turn the other cheek, but I can tell you from experience the chances of achieving a positive outcome in this life by doing so are very low.

I've been picked on. I've picked on others. I am a teacher. And that's exactly why I know there isn't just a bottomless pit of nothingness between silence and fisticuffs.

IMUE teachers tend to effectively punish the victim by telling him/her that if they are being mistreated, it is because they are not quite ignoring it the right way or something. They are wrong. A fairer course of action would be for the teacher to punish the aggressor. Otherwise, you are teaching the kids the necessity of retaliation and the impotence of authority figures, the latter of which is an important lesson anyway.

Nothing goes away by being ignored. Teachers, on the other hand, can be quite hamstrung by the rules of the system they work in. (Guess who'll find themselves out of a job if the school gets sued by some Veruca's equally entitled parent?)

On the other other hand, I see no reason to deck someone before they (attempt to) deck me.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Rufus

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2013, 08:46:43 PM »

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

I depends on if you want to be a martyr or if you want to stop the blasphemy.

No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

Wow, have you ever been picked on?

You sound like a teacher.

Jesus says to turn the other cheek, but I can tell you from experience the chances of achieving a positive outcome in this life by doing so are very low.

I've been picked on. I've picked on others. I am a teacher. And that's exactly why I know there isn't just a bottomless pit of nothingness between silence and fisticuffs.

IMUE teachers tend to effectively punish the victim by telling him/her that if they are being mistreated, it is because they are not quite ignoring it the right way or something. They are wrong. A fairer course of action would be for the teacher to punish the aggressor. Otherwise, you are teaching the kids the necessity of retaliation and the impotence of authority figures, the latter of which is an important lesson anyway.

Nothing goes away by being ignored. Teachers, on the other hand, can be quite hamstrung by the rules of the system they work in. (Guess who'll find themselves out of a job if the school gets sued by some Veruca's equally entitled parent?)

On the other other hand, I see no reason to deck someone before they (attempt to) deck me.

Yeah, I hear you about the rules/lawsuit thing, even in different countries. I have a very depressing personal anecdote about this that I can't tell here.

However, people who get picked on are usually weaker, so punching isn't really a good strategy. I found banging the other boy's head into the wall most effective.

Offline Laird

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2013, 08:49:46 PM »
I understand nowadays pretty much everyone supports religious tolerance and most Orthodox are against capital punishment for any crime but I'm confused by the fact that historically the Orthodox of the Byzantine Empire executed people for heresy.

This is what has always deeply disturbed me about the Orthodox and Catholics. Why in the world would the Church execute heretics and burn them at the stake?!? Didn't Jesus tell us to love our enemies (and heretics)? I find this inconceivable. Why would Christians who were burned at the stake and executed then turn around and do the same thing to heretics? I just don't understand. Can someone educate me please?

Though I think I've heard an explanation before. First off, the culture was different then in the 21st century, and also that when Christianity was legalized heresy became illegal?

Also, YiM, you are going over the top. Mor is right about St. Constantine and St. Paul. I think he converted to Christianity at his deathbed, if I remember correctly.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 08:52:39 PM by Laird »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2013, 09:02:54 PM »
Oh, YiM, you're just looking for reasons to defend your own departure from the Church.  By the standards you apply to Constantine, you'd also have to reject St Paul.  Have fun with that.

Not exactly, be fair.

Constantine was a Christian when hit lit other Christians on fire, and murdered hundreds of thousands in battle.   Paul on the other hand, became a Christian and did not murder thereafter.... Unless somebody wants to declare that Constantine wasn't a Christian during the Nicea.

Look, if pagan Paul burned somebody or stoned somebody, saw the error of his ways, and came to Christ that is one thing.  We are talking about bishops who have succession LIGHTING ON FIRE other Orthodox Christians (old believers)...  

Once again, in contrast to the Canon of the Holy Apostles, they should have never murdered or killed.... Easily overlooked.

The scrutiny applies both ways.   Look at me for example.  I don't make a lot of friends here because I believe in Yeshua, the son of God as my savior.  I am a Christian believer.  I scrutinize Orthodoxy with at least a novice level of understanding in the Orthodox faith.   I grew up in the church, have known bishops (personally), known lots of clergy, and have even been to Mt. Athos.   From this ground I PECK at Orthodox traditions that I believe are heretical.   This doesn't make me a lot of friends around here on the theological level.... "I left the church" in the EO's eyes, yet I'm "Discovering the church" in my own eyes.   It brings scrutiny of harsher levels against me.  So I don't like icons right?  I find them to be idols of sorts.... I get attacked on this level.

There is a small problem.   I didn't light up other Christians.   You know, grab em', tie them to a stake, pile wood around them & under them..... Get a fire started (without matches)... And apply the fire to the kindling.  Sit around as the dull heat begins to grow, and the heretic tied.... Watch as they begin to scream in agony.... Watch as the flesh boils, fats seep fueling the flame, as they writhe in pain.... Let them scream until their miserable end, as they give up their spirit.

But lest I address the Eastern Orthodox for doing this to Old believers, who didn't want to change the long standing traditions....

I mean, I criticize icons on an internet forum.  It doesn't make me friends.  Long ago, it may have gotten my throat slit by Eastern Orthodox iconodules, or perhaps burned too.  

History stinks, but it stinks worse at the smell of burning human flesh of Christians, caused by others that Eastern Orthodox Christians call "brothers".

It's a reality and though its not popular to say it around here - it's the truth.  We don't have to like the truth.  Actions like this are undoubtedly actions of the maintainers of the antichrist.   I don't even agree with all old believer practices, but I agree with them WAY WAY more than a Muslim.  But I would never even consider for a second lighting another human being that is a Muslim (or anything else) on fire.  I wouldn't even light a satanist on fire.   Fire is for God's judgment.

I know NONE of you on this board approve of such a thing.  That's some sick stuff.

I apologize if it seems harsh.  There has never been an Eastern Orthodox Christian that I have known of that would EVER do any such a thing.  It's sad it's part of EO.   I've known some of the most kind and gentle brothers and sisters imaginable in the church.

The problem that exists is within the succession, as murder deposes and excommunicates.  Why is it that Christians can be so cruel to other Christians?  (Not just EO) I'd see any EO Christian as my brother or sister that I just disagree with on some things.  But somebody who would torch another human, the buck stops there.  Perhaps it's my own faith issue.

Sorry, but I've watched living things burn (goats), when a grass field (tall grass & small tree mix last June in Texas) caught on fire.  The screaming was something that I can't "unhear".  It was a situation where my good friend and I just started shooting them to put them out of their misery as they darted past the flame line and their fur went up in a blaze.... (my friend lost 14 of 94 goats he had) On this account, burning at the stake another human.... BEYOND words.  It's a VERY sensitive subject for me.   Believe it when I say, I shoot lots of wildlife (boars, razorbacks, coyotes, snakes) and I've also slaughtered full cows.   The goats burning alive...   I can't imagine a person.

In good news though, he is expecting an awesome freshening this year as he has 50 does pregnant.  God is good.

Anyway, I just don't know why or how Christians can be so cruel to other Christians and still consider themselves Christian.  How could one ever approach the Eucharist after burning another Christian alive?

I guess evil can exist anywhere.  The EO I have known never would have done such a thing.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:08:58 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2013, 09:06:31 PM »

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

I depends on if you want to be a martyr or if you want to stop the blasphemy.

No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

Wow, have you ever been picked on?

You sound like a teacher.

Jesus says to turn the other cheek, but I can tell you from experience the chances of achieving a positive outcome in this life by doing so are very low.

I've been picked on. I've picked on others. I am a teacher. And that's exactly why I know there isn't just a bottomless pit of nothingness between silence and fisticuffs.

IMUE teachers tend to effectively punish the victim by telling him/her that if they are being mistreated, it is because they are not quite ignoring it the right way or something. They are wrong. A fairer course of action would be for the teacher to punish the aggressor. Otherwise, you are teaching the kids the necessity of retaliation and the impotence of authority figures, the latter of which is an important lesson anyway.

Nothing goes away by being ignored. Teachers, on the other hand, can be quite hamstrung by the rules of the system they work in. (Guess who'll find themselves out of a job if the school gets sued by some Veruca's equally entitled parent?)

On the other other hand, I see no reason to deck someone before they (attempt to) deck me.

Yeah, I hear you about the rules/lawsuit thing, even in different countries. I have a very depressing personal anecdote about this that I can't tell here.

However, people who get picked on are usually weaker, so punching isn't really a good strategy. I found banging the other boy's head into the wall most effective.

Arachne's obviously never been in a fight. You have. I remember the first brick I bash a kid's skull with. Innocence unfortunately is lost very early on.

I tried turning my other cheek to the menaces. Really, I was a super Christian kid. But when they were holding my brother down and ill attempting to pull out his recent stitches, what are you going to do? Well, a brick adds about 3 years and a lot of weight to small kid.

Nearly killing someone, depending on the environment, does tend to send a message about the price of violence. Too bad I had to move a lot. Sending the message starting happening earlier and earlier. Eventually, verbal threats were enough.

Chip chap and "fair fights" are just so boring and ineffectual

Rufus, to your point about teachers and fighting, at my school, no matter what happened, if you were in a fight, literally if a teacher saw a kid clobber you from behind, you both got the same punishment. Well, this gave incentive to certain kids to act out and punished many kids with suspensions and stuff who never merited it.

Oh, and Arachne, ignoring many things makes them go away.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:07:14 PM by orthonorm »

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2013, 09:14:47 PM »
Why in the world would the Church execute heretics and burn them at the stake?!? Didn't Jesus tell us to love our enemies (and heretics)?
You don't have to hate someone to kill him. As I understand Christian soldiers should try to love the enemies they have to kill. Maybe the Church saw it as a necessity, but I don't know, I'm just guessing, that's why I made this thread. I'm simply confused with the extremely hostile attitude towards heretics in the past and a very friendly one in modern times. Not to mention, I'm completely unsure how to view violence, I'm still new to Christianity and I'm still trying to figure out how to view the Old Testament, especially when I read about God ordering genocide and Prophet Elisha sending bears at boys who insulted him.

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2013, 09:27:52 PM »
Oh, YiM, you're just looking for reasons to defend your own departure from the Church.  By the standards you apply to Constantine, you'd also have to reject St Paul.  Have fun with that.

Not exactly, be fair.

Constantine was a Christian when hit lit other Christians on fire, and murdered hundreds of thousands in battle.   Paul on the other hand, became a Christian and did not murder thereafter.... Unless somebody wants to declare that Constantine wasn't a Christian during the Nicea.

YiM,

St Paul was baptised by Ananias, and did not murder thereafter.  St Constantine was baptised on his deathbed, and did not murder thereafter.  But if you're going to criticise St Constantine for his past life, why not criticise St Paul?  Or that murderous adulterer David, whose son is "Yeshua, the son of God"?  Or just about every major figure in the Scriptures?   

Quote
Look, if pagan Paul burned somebody or stoned somebody, saw the error of his ways, and came to Christ that is one thing.  We are talking about bishops who have succession LIGHTING ON FIRE other Orthodox Christians (old believers)...  

Once again, in contrast to the Canon of the Holy Apostles, they should have never murdered or killed.... Easily overlooked.

The scrutiny applies both ways.   Look at me for example.  I don't make a lot of friends here because I believe in Yeshua, the son of God as my savior.  I am a Christian believer.  I scrutinize Orthodoxy with at least a novice level of understanding in the Orthodox faith.   I grew up in the church, have known bishops (personally), known lots of clergy, and have even been to Mt. Athos.   From this ground I PECK at Orthodox traditions that I believe are heretical.   This doesn't make me a lot of friends around here on the theological level.... "I left the church" in the EO's eyes, yet I'm "Discovering the church" in my own eyes.   It brings scrutiny of harsher levels against me.  So I don't like icons right?  I find them to be idols of sorts.... I get attacked on this level.

There is a small problem.   I didn't light up other Christians.   You know, grab em', tie them to a stake, pile wood around them & under them..... Get a fire started (without matches)... And apply the fire to the kindling.  Sit around as the dull heat begins to grow, and the heretic tied.... Watch as they begin to scream in agony.... Watch as the flesh boils, fats seep fueling the flame, as they writhe in pain.... Let them scream until their miserable end, as they give up their spirit.

But lest I address the Eastern Orthodox for doing this to Old believers, who didn't want to change the long standing traditions....

I mean, I criticize icons on an internet forum.  It doesn't make me friends.  Long ago, it may have gotten my throat slit by Eastern Orthodox iconodules, or perhaps burned too.  

History stinks, but it stinks worse at the smell of burning human flesh of Christians, caused by others that Eastern Orthodox Christians call "brothers".

It's a reality and though its not popular to say it around here - it's the truth.  We don't have to like the truth.  Actions like this are undoubtedly actions of the maintainers of the antichrist.   I don't even agree with all old believer practices, but I agree with them WAY WAY more than a Muslim.  But I would never even consider for a second lighting another human being that is a Muslim (or anything else) on fire.  I wouldn't even light a satanist on fire.   Fire is for God's judgment.

I know NONE of you on this board approve of such a thing.  That's some sick stuff.

I apologize if it seems harsh.  There has never been an Eastern Orthodox Christian that I have known of that would EVER do any such a thing.  It's sad it's part of EO.   I've known some of the most kind and gentle brothers and sisters imaginable in the church.

The problem that exists is within the succession, as murder deposes and excommunicates.  Why is it that Christians can be so cruel to other Christians?  (Not just EO) I'd see any EO Christian as my brother or sister that I just disagree with on some things.  But somebody who would torch another human, the buck stops there.  Perhaps it's my own faith issue.

Sorry, but I've watched living things burn (goats), when a grass field (tall grass & small tree mix last June in Texas) caught on fire.  The screaming was something that I can't "unhear".  It was a situation where my good friend and I just started shooting them to put them out of their misery as they darted past the flame line and their fur went up in a blaze.... (my friend lost 14 of 94 goats he had) On this account, burning at the stake another human.... BEYOND words.  It's a VERY sensitive subject for me.   Believe it when I say, I shoot lots of wildlife (boars, razorbacks, coyotes, snakes) and I've also slaughtered full cows.   The goats burning alive...   I can't imagine a person.

In good news though, he is expecting an awesome freshening this year as he has 50 does pregnant.  God is good.

Anyway, I just don't know why or how Christians can be so cruel to other Christians and still consider themselves Christian.  How could one ever approach the Eucharist after burning another Christian alive?

I guess evil can exist anywhere.  The EO I have known never would have done such a thing.

In other words:

Oh, YiM, you're just looking for reasons to defend your own departure from the Church.  

Perhaps it's my own faith issue.

+1
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Math lover

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2013, 09:33:54 PM »
Burn the Papist and the Muhammadan heretics!

Offline JamesR

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2013, 10:03:46 PM »
St Paul was baptised by Ananias, and did not murder thereafter.  St Constantine was baptised on his deathbed, and did not murder thereafter.  But if you're going to criticise St Constantine for his past life, why not criticise St Paul?  Or that murderous adulterer David, whose son is "Yeshua, the son of God"?  Or just about every major figure in the Scriptures?

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Offline Laird

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2013, 10:08:16 PM »
Why in the world would the Church execute heretics and burn them at the stake?!? Didn't Jesus tell us to love our enemies (and heretics)?
You don't have to hate someone to kill him. As I understand Christian soldiers should try to love the enemies they have to kill. Maybe the Church saw it as a necessity, but I don't know, I'm just guessing, that's why I made this thread. I'm simply confused with the extremely hostile attitude towards heretics in the past and a very friendly one in modern times. Not to mention, I'm completely unsure how to view violence, I'm still new to Christianity and I'm still trying to figure out how to view the Old Testament, especially when I read about God ordering genocide and Prophet Elisha sending bears at boys who insulted him.

True. I think what I meant to say was how is burning heretics at the stake Christ-like. I think I could see exiling a heretic as a necessity for the Church. But execution? And definitely not burning. If you're gonna do capital punishment, why in the world would you burn them?

I pray that you will grow in Christ. You're gonna have a really hard time with the OT. God have mercy on you. I think it has to do with the culture. Back in the Old Testament, the culture was completely different than the 21st century. I think you just have to accept that war and genocide were acceptable in that time, but not now. I don't know how that relates to Christians.



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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2013, 10:12:41 PM »
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2013, 10:20:24 PM »
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2013, 10:26:42 PM »
Hey Latininsts and everyone else, this last exchange makes me believe it's not just me, is there more whitespace than normal at the end of each post now?

Not complaining, just wondering.

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2013, 10:43:35 PM »
Quod nomen est tibi?

Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2013, 10:44:35 PM »
Hey Latininsts and everyone else, this last exchange makes me believe it's not just me, is there more whitespace than normal at the end of each post now?

Not complaining, just wondering.

I don't pay enough attention to those things, but now that you mention it, I have more white space under my posts than you do under yours.  Weird.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2013, 10:47:00 PM »
Hey Latininsts and everyone else, this last exchange makes me believe it's not just me, is there more whitespace than normal at the end of each post now?

Not complaining, just wondering.

I don't pay enough attention to those things, but now that you mention it, I have more white space under my posts than you do under yours.  Weird.

I am overly attentive to weird stuff.

Anyway if you try to "highlight" that area with your mouse, it looks like there is an element coded in now.

I like the look FWIW. For the last day or so though, I thought I was just misclicking before hitting enter and adding whitespace to my posts.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2013, 01:15:37 AM »
Isn't the authentic tradition of the Holy Rus to exile heretics to some remote place in Siberia where they can do no harm?

The punishment of heretics in Byzantium and Russia was haphazard and more more ore less bureaucratic, as opposed to capital, corporal, or incarcerational (apologies for any nonsensical use of terms--it's late here). Fines, taxes, restrictions on building churches, exile. They could and did do harm in Siberia, though. Rasputin was a member of a heretical sect, for example.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2013, 01:17:14 AM »
Isn't the authentic tradition of the Holy Rus to exile heretics to some remote place in Siberia where they can do no harm?
Definitely. The tsars saw how awesome it worked with heretics so they started sending their rivals there. In no time at all Stalin wound up there. He learned too how "cool" it was out there, and then he started the GULAG. You can see how a good thing just keeps on giving.

Fortunately since Stalin's time Russia has felt it has had too much of this.

Maybe.
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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2013, 01:23:36 AM »
I understand nowadays pretty much everyone supports religious tolerance and most Orthodox are against capital punishment for any crime but I'm confused by the fact that historically the Orthodox of the Byzantine Empire executed people for heresy.

This is what has always deeply disturbed me about the Orthodox and Catholics. Why in the world would the Church execute heretics and burn them at the stake?!? Didn't Jesus tell us to love our enemies (and heretics)? I find this inconceivable. Why would Christians who were burned at the stake and executed then turn around and do the same thing to heretics? I just don't understand. Can someone educate me please?

Though I think I've heard an explanation before. First off, the culture was different then in the 21st century, and also that when Christianity was legalized heresy became illegal?

Also, YiM, you are going over the top. Mor is right about St. Constantine and St. Paul. I think he converted to Christianity at his deathbed, if I remember correctly.

The Church did not execute anyone. That state did, often over the express objection of the Church.
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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2013, 01:25:52 AM »
Quod nomen est tibi?

Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus. 

This is getting to be like the ending of "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man."
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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2013, 10:18:04 AM »
Unless somebody wants to declare that Constantine wasn't a Christian during the Nicea.

He wasn't.
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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2013, 10:55:37 AM »
Unless somebody wants to declare that Constantine wasn't a Christian during the Nicea.

He wasn't.

Depends on what people mean by these terms. At that point in time being baptized did not have the same meaning, role, or weight that many assign it today (neither did communion, marriage, episcopacy, etc.) For example, up through the end of the fourth century some people were even chosen to become bishops before they were baptized, including at least two people who were eventually declared a saint (St. Nektarios of Constantinople and, more famously, St. Ambrose of Milan). Some people at the time objected regarding the lack of experience of these candidates (having been only catechumens and never fully participating in things like the sacraments to that point), but no one said that they weren't Christians. For another example, pious Christian families would often not baptize their children while young, even though the practice of infant baptism was an option, but rather let the children get to adulthood and decide for themselves when they thought it best to be baptized. When St. Nonna and St. (Bishop) Gregory raised their children, such as St. Gregory the Theologian, and did not baptized them, but let them grow up, go off to college, etc., and only get baptized as adults, it had not been done with the idea that they weren't Christians.

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2013, 11:46:48 AM »
Hey Latininsts and everyone else, this last exchange makes me believe it's not just me, is there more whitespace than normal at the end of each post now?

Not complaining, just wondering. 

Is it just a phenomenon related to the avatar and custom title size - i.e. very short posts will have white space because of the post's need to conform to the size of the info at left?  Or is it something else?
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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2013, 01:07:15 PM »
Hey Latininsts and everyone else, this last exchange makes me believe it's not just me, is there more whitespace than normal at the end of each post now?

Not complaining, just wondering. 

Is it just a phenomenon related to the avatar and custom title size - i.e. very short posts will have white space because of the post's need to conform to the size of the info at left?  Or is it something else?

Father,

I must have been more tired than I thought when I mentioned that, because what you say seems rather obvious now.

Maybe it just the change back from the less compact manner of showing profile info.

Thank you.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2013, 01:23:25 PM »
Oh, YiM, you're just looking for reasons to defend your own departure from the Church.  By the standards you apply to Constantine, you'd also have to reject St Paul.  Have fun with that.

Not exactly, be fair.

Constantine was a Christian when hit lit other Christians on fire, and murdered hundreds of thousands in battle.   Paul on the other hand, became a Christian and did not murder thereafter.... Unless somebody wants to declare that Constantine wasn't a Christian during the Nicea.

Look, if pagan Paul burned somebody or stoned somebody, saw the error of his ways, and came to Christ that is one thing.  We are talking about bishops who have succession LIGHTING ON FIRE other Orthodox Christians (old believers)...  

Once again, in contrast to the Canon of the Holy Apostles, they should have never murdered or killed.... Easily overlooked.

The scrutiny applies both ways.   Look at me for example.  I don't make a lot of friends here because I believe in Yeshua, the son of God as my savior.  I am a Christian believer.  I scrutinize Orthodoxy with at least a novice level of understanding in the Orthodox faith.   I grew up in the church, have known bishops (personally), known lots of clergy, and have even been to Mt. Athos.   From this ground I PECK at Orthodox traditions that I believe are heretical.   This doesn't make me a lot of friends around here on the theological level.... "I left the church" in the EO's eyes, yet I'm "Discovering the church" in my own eyes.   It brings scrutiny of harsher levels against me.  So I don't like icons right?  I find them to be idols of sorts.... I get attacked on this level.

There is a small problem.   I didn't light up other Christians.   You know, grab em', tie them to a stake, pile wood around them & under them..... Get a fire started (without matches)... And apply the fire to the kindling.  Sit around as the dull heat begins to grow, and the heretic tied.... Watch as they begin to scream in agony.... Watch as the flesh boils, fats seep fueling the flame, as they writhe in pain.... Let them scream until their miserable end, as they give up their spirit.

But lest I address the Eastern Orthodox for doing this to Old believers, who didn't want to change the long standing traditions....

I mean, I criticize icons on an internet forum.  It doesn't make me friends.  Long ago, it may have gotten my throat slit by Eastern Orthodox iconodules, or perhaps burned too.  

History stinks, but it stinks worse at the smell of burning human flesh of Christians, caused by others that Eastern Orthodox Christians call "brothers".

It's a reality and though its not popular to say it around here - it's the truth.  We don't have to like the truth.  Actions like this are undoubtedly actions of the maintainers of the antichrist.   I don't even agree with all old believer practices, but I agree with them WAY WAY more than a Muslim.  But I would never even consider for a second lighting another human being that is a Muslim (or anything else) on fire.  I wouldn't even light a satanist on fire.   Fire is for God's judgment.

I know NONE of you on this board approve of such a thing.  That's some sick stuff.

I apologize if it seems harsh.  There has never been an Eastern Orthodox Christian that I have known of that would EVER do any such a thing.  It's sad it's part of EO.   I've known some of the most kind and gentle brothers and sisters imaginable in the church.

The problem that exists is within the succession, as murder deposes and excommunicates.  Why is it that Christians can be so cruel to other Christians?  (Not just EO) I'd see any EO Christian as my brother or sister that I just disagree with on some things.  But somebody who would torch another human, the buck stops there.  Perhaps it's my own faith issue.

Sorry, but I've watched living things burn (goats), when a grass field (tall grass & small tree mix last June in Texas) caught on fire.  The screaming was something that I can't "unhear".  It was a situation where my good friend and I just started shooting them to put them out of their misery as they darted past the flame line and their fur went up in a blaze.... (my friend lost 14 of 94 goats he had) On this account, burning at the stake another human.... BEYOND words.  It's a VERY sensitive subject for me.   Believe it when I say, I shoot lots of wildlife (boars, razorbacks, coyotes, snakes) and I've also slaughtered full cows.   The goats burning alive...   I can't imagine a person.

In good news though, he is expecting an awesome freshening this year as he has 50 does pregnant.  God is good.

Anyway, I just don't know why or how Christians can be so cruel to other Christians and still consider themselves Christian.  How could one ever approach the Eucharist after burning another Christian alive?

I guess evil can exist anywhere.  The EO I have known never would have done such a thing.



I'm with you brother.

Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2013, 01:25:31 PM »
Quod nomen est tibi?

Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus. 

Tu autem effugare, diabole; appropinquabit enim judicium Dei.

Offline Rufus

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2013, 03:37:11 PM »

By the way, I'm merely asking questions here, not making statements, I'm confused.

Related to the topic, how am I even supposed to respond if someone is making very vulgar insults against God with the intention to hurt me and I'm unable to walk away? Do I stay silent? Respond with violence?

I depends on if you want to be a martyr or if you want to stop the blasphemy.

No, it depends on whether you want to give satisfaction to someone who's trying to get a rise out of you or not.

Wow, have you ever been picked on?

You sound like a teacher.

Jesus says to turn the other cheek, but I can tell you from experience the chances of achieving a positive outcome in this life by doing so are very low.

I've been picked on. I've picked on others. I am a teacher. And that's exactly why I know there isn't just a bottomless pit of nothingness between silence and fisticuffs.

IMUE teachers tend to effectively punish the victim by telling him/her that if they are being mistreated, it is because they are not quite ignoring it the right way or something. They are wrong. A fairer course of action would be for the teacher to punish the aggressor. Otherwise, you are teaching the kids the necessity of retaliation and the impotence of authority figures, the latter of which is an important lesson anyway.

Nothing goes away by being ignored. Teachers, on the other hand, can be quite hamstrung by the rules of the system they work in. (Guess who'll find themselves out of a job if the school gets sued by some Veruca's equally entitled parent?)

On the other other hand, I see no reason to deck someone before they (attempt to) deck me.

Yeah, I hear you about the rules/lawsuit thing, even in different countries. I have a very depressing personal anecdote about this that I can't tell here.

However, people who get picked on are usually weaker, so punching isn't really a good strategy. I found banging the other boy's head into the wall most effective.

Arachne's obviously never been in a fight. You have. I remember the first brick I bash a kid's skull with. Innocence unfortunately is lost very early on.

I tried turning my other cheek to the menaces. Really, I was a super Christian kid. But when they were holding my brother down and ill attempting to pull out his recent stitches, what are you going to do? Well, a brick adds about 3 years and a lot of weight to small kid.

Nearly killing someone, depending on the environment, does tend to send a message about the price of violence. Too bad I had to move a lot. Sending the message starting happening earlier and earlier. Eventually, verbal threats were enough.

Chip chap and "fair fights" are just so boring and ineffectual

Rufus, to your point about teachers and fighting, at my school, no matter what happened, if you were in a fight, literally if a teacher saw a kid clobber you from behind, you both got the same punishment. Well, this gave incentive to certain kids to act out and punished many kids with suspensions and stuff who never merited it.

Oh, and Arachne, ignoring many things makes them go away.

I've always avoided fighting and never got into a pitched fight, just a series of one-sided encounters, and usually nothing serious.

However, the suspensions were hilarious. Hey, take a day off. I had quite a few.

I did really mash a kid's head once though, and the kicker is that it was right in front of a teacher, and he said it was OK. I still have ambivalent feelings about that incident.

gotta go.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2013, 07:53:08 PM »
Quod nomen est tibi?

Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus. 

Tu autem effugare, diabole; appropinquabit enim judicium Dei.

OK people, let's not get out of hand.  I ask you all to provide a translation please next time. That's not just for pod, but anyone else who's been writing in Latin.

Thank you.

Mina
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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2013, 08:19:38 PM »
If college memories serve me, that's from the Gospel passage - 'Who are you?' 'My name is Legion, for we are many.' Jesus drives the demons out of the man and into the pigs.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2013, 08:25:17 PM »
If college memories serve me, that's from the Gospel passage - 'Who are you?' 'My name is Legion, for we are many.' Jesus drives the demons out of the man and into the pigs.

Wow, what college did you go to?  ;)

BTW, you are right.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2013, 09:05:46 PM »
Thanks.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2013, 01:14:54 AM »
Oh, YiM, you're just looking for reasons to defend your own departure from the Church.  By the standards you apply to Constantine, you'd also have to reject St Paul.  Have fun with that.

Not exactly, be fair.

Constantine was a Christian when hit lit other Christians on fire, and murdered hundreds of thousands in battle.   Paul on the other hand, became a Christian and did not murder thereafter.... Unless somebody wants to declare that Constantine wasn't a Christian during the Nicea.

YiM,

St Paul was baptised by Ananias, and did not murder thereafter.  St Constantine was baptised on his deathbed, and did not murder thereafter.  But if you're going to criticise St Constantine for his past life, why not criticise St Paul?  Or that murderous adulterer David, whose son is "Yeshua, the son of God"?  Or just about every major figure in the Scriptures?   

Quote
Look, if pagan Paul burned somebody or stoned somebody, saw the error of his ways, and came to Christ that is one thing.  We are talking about bishops who have succession LIGHTING ON FIRE other Orthodox Christians (old believers)...  

Once again, in contrast to the Canon of the Holy Apostles, they should have never murdered or killed.... Easily overlooked.

The scrutiny applies both ways.   Look at me for example.  I don't make a lot of friends here because I believe in Yeshua, the son of God as my savior.  I am a Christian believer.  I scrutinize Orthodoxy with at least a novice level of understanding in the Orthodox faith.   I grew up in the church, have known bishops (personally), known lots of clergy, and have even been to Mt. Athos.   From this ground I PECK at Orthodox traditions that I believe are heretical.   This doesn't make me a lot of friends around here on the theological level.... "I left the church" in the EO's eyes, yet I'm "Discovering the church" in my own eyes.   It brings scrutiny of harsher levels against me.  So I don't like icons right?  I find them to be idols of sorts.... I get attacked on this level.

There is a small problem.   I didn't light up other Christians.   You know, grab em', tie them to a stake, pile wood around them & under them..... Get a fire started (without matches)... And apply the fire to the kindling.  Sit around as the dull heat begins to grow, and the heretic tied.... Watch as they begin to scream in agony.... Watch as the flesh boils, fats seep fueling the flame, as they writhe in pain.... Let them scream until their miserable end, as they give up their spirit.

But lest I address the Eastern Orthodox for doing this to Old believers, who didn't want to change the long standing traditions....

I mean, I criticize icons on an internet forum.  It doesn't make me friends.  Long ago, it may have gotten my throat slit by Eastern Orthodox iconodules, or perhaps burned too.  

History stinks, but it stinks worse at the smell of burning human flesh of Christians, caused by others that Eastern Orthodox Christians call "brothers".

It's a reality and though its not popular to say it around here - it's the truth.  We don't have to like the truth.  Actions like this are undoubtedly actions of the maintainers of the antichrist.   I don't even agree with all old believer practices, but I agree with them WAY WAY more than a Muslim.  But I would never even consider for a second lighting another human being that is a Muslim (or anything else) on fire.  I wouldn't even light a satanist on fire.   Fire is for God's judgment.

I know NONE of you on this board approve of such a thing.  That's some sick stuff.

I apologize if it seems harsh.  There has never been an Eastern Orthodox Christian that I have known of that would EVER do any such a thing.  It's sad it's part of EO.   I've known some of the most kind and gentle brothers and sisters imaginable in the church.

The problem that exists is within the succession, as murder deposes and excommunicates.  Why is it that Christians can be so cruel to other Christians?  (Not just EO) I'd see any EO Christian as my brother or sister that I just disagree with on some things.  But somebody who would torch another human, the buck stops there.  Perhaps it's my own faith issue.

Sorry, but I've watched living things burn (goats), when a grass field (tall grass & small tree mix last June in Texas) caught on fire.  The screaming was something that I can't "unhear".  It was a situation where my good friend and I just started shooting them to put them out of their misery as they darted past the flame line and their fur went up in a blaze.... (my friend lost 14 of 94 goats he had) On this account, burning at the stake another human.... BEYOND words.  It's a VERY sensitive subject for me.   Believe it when I say, I shoot lots of wildlife (boars, razorbacks, coyotes, snakes) and I've also slaughtered full cows.   The goats burning alive...   I can't imagine a person.

In good news though, he is expecting an awesome freshening this year as he has 50 does pregnant.  God is good.

Anyway, I just don't know why or how Christians can be so cruel to other Christians and still consider themselves Christian.  How could one ever approach the Eucharist after burning another Christian alive?

I guess evil can exist anywhere.  The EO I have known never would have done such a thing.

In other words:

Oh, YiM, you're just looking for reasons to defend your own departure from the Church.  

Perhaps it's my own faith issue.

+1

You can't use that excuse for St. Justinian!
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Capital punishment of heretics?
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2013, 08:43:41 PM »
Oh, YiM, you're just looking for reasons to defend your own departure from the Church.  By the standards you apply to Constantine, you'd also have to reject St Paul.  Have fun with that.

Not exactly, be fair.

Constantine was a Christian when hit lit other Christians on fire, and murdered hundreds of thousands in battle.   Paul on the other hand, became a Christian and did not murder thereafter.... Unless somebody wants to declare that Constantine wasn't a Christian during the Nicea.

YiM,

St Paul was baptised by Ananias, and did not murder thereafter.  St Constantine was baptised on his deathbed, and did not murder thereafter.  But if you're going to criticise St Constantine for his past life, why not criticise St Paul?  Or that murderous adulterer David, whose son is "Yeshua, the son of God"?  Or just about every major figure in the Scriptures?   

Quote
Look, if pagan Paul burned somebody or stoned somebody, saw the error of his ways, and came to Christ that is one thing.  We are talking about bishops who have succession LIGHTING ON FIRE other Orthodox Christians (old believers)...  

Once again, in contrast to the Canon of the Holy Apostles, they should have never murdered or killed.... Easily overlooked.

The scrutiny applies both ways.   Look at me for example.  I don't make a lot of friends here because I believe in Yeshua, the son of God as my savior.  I am a Christian believer.  I scrutinize Orthodoxy with at least a novice level of understanding in the Orthodox faith.   I grew up in the church, have known bishops (personally), known lots of clergy, and have even been to Mt. Athos.   From this ground I PECK at Orthodox traditions that I believe are heretical.   This doesn't make me a lot of friends around here on the theological level.... "I left the church" in the EO's eyes, yet I'm "Discovering the church" in my own eyes.   It brings scrutiny of harsher levels against me.  So I don't like icons right?  I find them to be idols of sorts.... I get attacked on this level.

There is a small problem.   I didn't light up other Christians.   You know, grab em', tie them to a stake, pile wood around them & under them..... Get a fire started (without matches)... And apply the fire to the kindling.  Sit around as the dull heat begins to grow, and the heretic tied.... Watch as they begin to scream in agony.... Watch as the flesh boils, fats seep fueling the flame, as they writhe in pain.... Let them scream until their miserable end, as they give up their spirit.

But lest I address the Eastern Orthodox for doing this to Old believers, who didn't want to change the long standing traditions....

I mean, I criticize icons on an internet forum.  It doesn't make me friends.  Long ago, it may have gotten my throat slit by Eastern Orthodox iconodules, or perhaps burned too.  

History stinks, but it stinks worse at the smell of burning human flesh of Christians, caused by others that Eastern Orthodox Christians call "brothers".

It's a reality and though its not popular to say it around here - it's the truth.  We don't have to like the truth.  Actions like this are undoubtedly actions of the maintainers of the antichrist.   I don't even agree with all old believer practices, but I agree with them WAY WAY more than a Muslim.  But I would never even consider for a second lighting another human being that is a Muslim (or anything else) on fire.  I wouldn't even light a satanist on fire.   Fire is for God's judgment.

I know NONE of you on this board approve of such a thing.  That's some sick stuff.

I apologize if it seems harsh.  There has never been an Eastern Orthodox Christian that I have known of that would EVER do any such a thing.  It's sad it's part of EO.   I've known some of the most kind and gentle brothers and sisters imaginable in the church.

The problem that exists is within the succession, as murder deposes and excommunicates.  Why is it that Christians can be so cruel to other Christians?  (Not just EO) I'd see any EO Christian as my brother or sister that I just disagree with on some things.  But somebody who would torch another human, the buck stops there.  Perhaps it's my own faith issue.

Sorry, but I've watched living things burn (goats), when a grass field (tall grass & small tree mix last June in Texas) caught on fire.  The screaming was something that I can't "unhear".  It was a situation where my good friend and I just started shooting them to put them out of their misery as they darted past the flame line and their fur went up in a blaze.... (my friend lost 14 of 94 goats he had) On this account, burning at the stake another human.... BEYOND words.  It's a VERY sensitive subject for me.   Believe it when I say, I shoot lots of wildlife (boars, razorbacks, coyotes, snakes) and I've also slaughtered full cows.   The goats burning alive...   I can't imagine a person.

In good news though, he is expecting an awesome freshening this year as he has 50 does pregnant.  God is good.

Anyway, I just don't know why or how Christians can be so cruel to other Christians and still consider themselves Christian.  How could one ever approach the Eucharist after burning another Christian alive?

I guess evil can exist anywhere.  The EO I have known never would have done such a thing.

In other words:

Oh, YiM, you're just looking for reasons to defend your own departure from the Church.  

Perhaps it's my own faith issue.

+1

You can't use that excuse for St. Justinian!

What?
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