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Author Topic: Catholic Sacramentals  (Read 1479 times) Average Rating: 0
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Christopher McAvoy
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« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2013, 12:49:30 AM »

I'm not supposed to say anything at all if I have nothing good to say.

But I'm breaking then rule.  I no longer find this question very important, though I do understand why there will always be people asking it.

Apparently many Orthodox Churches in Mexico have an icon of Our Lady of Guadeloupe in them.

What in the world Our Lady of Guadeloupe has to do with the Orthodox Church is a matter of opinion, yes?

In the sense that she is the Mother of God, it has everything to do with the Orthodox Church..

But than does the Orthodox Church ever ask why she appears to Roman Catholics as well ?

It is intrigueing.  

Clearly, there is some acknowledgement within both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, that somehow some aspect of the faith in some genuine manner exists. Otherwise one would accuse the others apparitions or saints of being possessed by demons as protestants often do. I dont deny a few radical people might say that, but hardly any. Even an SSPX priest I asked acknowledges that the Orthodox Church is a real church with real miracles and real sacraments, but schismatic.

What this means for post schism devotions I dont know..but I can see why many people simply accept them if they do not appear to them to directly contradict their faith. If someone does it in private and makes an error, God surely has mercy on them.

I think this question matters primarily for public liturgies for the most part.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 12:52:04 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2013, 01:17:09 AM »

I'm not supposed to say anything at all if I have nothing good to say.

But I'm breaking then rule.  I no longer find this question very important, though I do understand why there will always be people asking it.

Apparently many Orthodox Churches in Mexico have an icon of Our Lady of Guadeloupe in them.

What in the world Our Lady of Guadeloupe has to do with the Orthodox Church is a matter of opinion, yes?

In the sense that she is the Mother of God, it has everything to do with the Orthodox Church..

But than does the Orthodox Church ever ask why she appears to Roman Catholics as well ?

It is intrigueing.  

Clearly, there is some acknowledgement within both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, that somehow some aspect of the faith in some genuine manner exists. Otherwise one would accuse the others apparitions or saints of being possessed by demons as protestants often do. I dont deny a few radical people might say that, but hardly any. Even an SSPX priest I asked acknowledges that the Orthodox Church is a real church with real miracles and real sacraments, but schismatic.

What this means for post schism devotions I dont know..but I can see why many people simply accept them if they do not appear to them to directly contradict their faith. If someone does it in private and makes an error, God surely has mercy on them.

I think this question matters primarily for public liturgies for the most part.

Here are a couple of threads on the matter:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39397.0/all.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22688.0/all.html

Quote
What in the world Our Lady of Guadeloupe has to do with the Orthodox Church is a matter of opinion, yes?

No. This apparition is not part of Orthodox tradition.

Quote
But then does the Orthodox Church ever ask why she appears to Roman Catholics as well ?

Apparitions within the post-schism RC church should have no influence on Orthodox praxis, doctrine, iconography or liturgical commemoration.



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« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2013, 11:55:04 AM »

I'm not supposed to say anything at all if I have nothing good to say.

But I'm breaking then rule.  I no longer find this question very important, though I do understand why there will always be people asking it.

Apparently many Orthodox Churches in Mexico have an icon of Our Lady of Guadeloupe in them.

What in the world Our Lady of Guadeloupe has to do with the Orthodox Church is a matter of opinion, yes?

In the sense that she is the Mother of God, it has everything to do with the Orthodox Church..

But than does the Orthodox Church ever ask why she appears to Roman Catholics as well ?

It is intrigueing.  

Clearly, there is some acknowledgement within both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, that somehow some aspect of the faith in some genuine manner exists. Otherwise one would accuse the others apparitions or saints of being possessed by demons as protestants often do. I dont deny a few radical people might say that, but hardly any. Even an SSPX priest I asked acknowledges that the Orthodox Church is a real church with real miracles and real sacraments, but schismatic.

What this means for post schism devotions I dont know..but I can see why many people simply accept them if they do not appear to them to directly contradict their faith. If someone does it in private and makes an error, God surely has mercy on them.

I think this question matters primarily for public liturgies for the most part.

Here are a couple of threads on the matter:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39397.0/all.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22688.0/all.html

Quote
What in the world Our Lady of Guadeloupe has to do with the Orthodox Church is a matter of opinion, yes?

No. This apparition is not part of Orthodox tradition.

Quote
But then does the Orthodox Church ever ask why she appears to Roman Catholics as well ?

Apparitions within the post-schism RC church should have no influence on Orthodox praxis, doctrine, iconography or liturgical commemoration.



I agree that nothing that is contrary to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church should be allowed. However, honoring the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary in any way is certainly part of our tradition. I once went to the shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe outside of Mexico City. There was a real sense of spirituality there that I cannot deny.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2013, 02:12:42 PM »

I'm not supposed to say anything at all if I have nothing good to say.

But I'm breaking then rule.  I no longer find this question very important, though I do understand why there will always be people asking it.

Apparently many Orthodox Churches in Mexico have an icon of Our Lady of Guadeloupe in them.

What in the world Our Lady of Guadeloupe has to do with the Orthodox Church is a matter of opinion, yes?

In the sense that she is the Mother of God, it has everything to do with the Orthodox Church..

But than does the Orthodox Church ever ask why she appears to Roman Catholics as well ?

It is intrigueing.  

Clearly, there is some acknowledgement within both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, that somehow some aspect of the faith in some genuine manner exists. Otherwise one would accuse the others apparitions or saints of being possessed by demons as protestants often do. I dont deny a few radical people might say that, but hardly any. Even an SSPX priest I asked acknowledges that the Orthodox Church is a real church with real miracles and real sacraments, but schismatic.

What this means for post schism devotions I dont know..but I can see why many people simply accept them if they do not appear to them to directly contradict their faith. If someone does it in private and makes an error, God surely has mercy on them.

I think this question matters primarily for public liturgies for the most part.

Here are a couple of threads on the matter:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39397.0/all.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22688.0/all.html

Quote
What in the world Our Lady of Guadeloupe has to do with the Orthodox Church is a matter of opinion, yes?

No. This apparition is not part of Orthodox tradition.

Quote
But then does the Orthodox Church ever ask why she appears to Roman Catholics as well ?

Apparitions within the post-schism RC church should have no influence on Orthodox praxis, doctrine, iconography or liturgical commemoration.



I agree that nothing that is contrary to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church should be allowed. However, honoring the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary in any way is certainly part of our tradition. I once went to the shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe outside of Mexico City. There was a real sense of spirituality there that I cannot deny.

Fr. John W. Morris

Likewise the shrine at Mariapoc in Hungary.
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« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2013, 02:40:23 PM »

huh, there is this older woman i used to do sundry maintenance work for, in her apartment, she's a Catholic author. That lady, although she must have way more money than I make, she would never tip me, but instead i got loads of rosaries, medals and novena booklets, scapulars etc from her. I can't say i used them, but I'm sure one rosary with beads colored in rainbow colors is still hanging on a nail on a wall somewhere at my place .
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« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2013, 05:21:27 PM »

huh, there is this older woman i used to do sundry maintenance work for, in her apartment, she's a Catholic author. That lady, although she must have way more money than I make, she would never tip me, but instead i got loads of rosaries, medals and novena booklets, scapulars etc from her. I can't say i used them, but I'm sure one rosary with beads colored in rainbow colors is still hanging on a nail on a wall somewhere at my place .


Hey, if you don't want those Catholic sacramentals, send them my way! Cheesy
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« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2013, 09:00:34 PM »

huh, there is this older woman i used to do sundry maintenance work for, in her apartment, she's a Catholic author. That lady, although she must have way more money than I make, she would never tip me, but instead i got loads of rosaries, medals and novena booklets, scapulars etc from her. I can't say i used them, but I'm sure one rosary with beads colored in rainbow colors is still hanging on a nail on a wall somewhere at my place .

If she's a Catholic author - or ANY type of author - she may not have as much money as you think.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2013, 01:02:23 AM »

huh, there is this older woman i used to do sundry maintenance work for, in her apartment, she's a Catholic author. That lady, although she must have way more money than I make, she would never tip me, but instead i got loads of rosaries, medals and novena booklets, scapulars etc from her. I can't say i used them, but I'm sure one rosary with beads colored in rainbow colors is still hanging on a nail on a wall somewhere at my place .


Hey, if you don't want those Catholic sacramentals, send them my way! Cheesy

Orthodox do not use the term sacramentals because we believe that the entire life of the Church is sacramental. Therefore, any blessing of anything is sacramental.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2013, 01:13:57 AM »

huh, there is this older woman i used to do sundry maintenance work for, in her apartment, she's a Catholic author. That lady, although she must have way more money than I make, she would never tip me, but instead i got loads of rosaries, medals and novena booklets, scapulars etc from her. I can't say i used them, but I'm sure one rosary with beads colored in rainbow colors is still hanging on a nail on a wall somewhere at my place .


Hey, if you don't want those Catholic sacramentals, send them my way! Cheesy

Orthodox do not use the term sacramentals because we believe that the entire life of the Church is sacramental. Therefore, any blessing of anything is sacramental.

Fr. John W. Morris

Semantics. What would be the proper "byzantine" substitute word for "sacramental", Rev. Fr. John?
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« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2013, 01:56:42 AM »

huh, there is this older woman i used to do sundry maintenance work for, in her apartment, she's a Catholic author. That lady, although she must have way more money than I make, she would never tip me, but instead i got loads of rosaries, medals and novena booklets, scapulars etc from her. I can't say i used them, but I'm sure one rosary with beads colored in rainbow colors is still hanging on a nail on a wall somewhere at my place .


Hey, if you don't want those Catholic sacramentals, send them my way! Cheesy

Orthodox do not use the term sacramentals because we believe that the entire life of the Church is sacramental. Therefore, any blessing of anything is sacramental.

Fr. John W. Morris

Semantics. What would be the proper "byzantine" substitute word for "sacramental", Rev. Fr. John?


I do not know that we have one. However, we bless everything; homes, cars, new wine, everything.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2013, 01:58:23 AM »

Semantics. What would be the proper "byzantine" substitute word for "sacramental", Rev. Fr. John?

Μυστηριάκι(ον).
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« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2013, 02:06:49 AM »

Semantics. What would be the proper "byzantine" substitute word for "sacramental", Rev. Fr. John?

Μυστηριάκι(ον).

Is this word in common use to refer to all such things? I have never come across it, only the names of the objects themselves, or categories of objects.
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« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2013, 02:32:27 AM »

Semantics. What would be the proper "byzantine" substitute word for "sacramental", Rev. Fr. John?

Μυστηριάκι(ον).

Is this word in common use to refer to all such things? I have never come across it, only the names of the objects themselves, or categories of objects.

No. Not at all.

Μυστηριάκι just means "little secret" in Modern Greek. But, since sacramentalia are "little/lesser sacraments"... 
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« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2013, 02:36:16 AM »

Semantics. What would be the proper "byzantine" substitute word for "sacramental", Rev. Fr. John?

Μυστηριάκι(ον).

Is this word in common use to refer to all such things? I have never come across it, only the names of the objects themselves, or categories of objects.

No. Not at all.

Μυστηριάκι just means "little secret" in Modern Greek. But, since sacramentalia are "little/lesser sacraments"... 

Thought so.  Wink
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« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2013, 12:34:36 PM »

we believe that the entire life of the Church is sacramental.
Cool. So do we.
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« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2013, 12:36:26 PM »

we believe that the entire life of the Church is sacramental.
Cool. So do we.
Some people sole reason for being orthodox is their anti-catholicism. online it's plenty evident. much less in real life.
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« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2013, 01:15:33 PM »

we believe that the entire life of the Church is sacramental.
Cool. So do we.
Some people sole reason for being orthodox is their anti-catholicism. online it's plenty evident. much less in real life.
You can't be anti-Catholic and Orthodox.  The Orthodox Churches are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I don't recall ever coming across someone who was Orthodox to evade submission to the Vatican, though I've known a great number who submitted to the Vatican not to be Orthodox.
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« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2013, 01:17:49 PM »

Isa went ballistic again.
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« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2013, 02:50:16 PM »

Semantics. What would be the proper "byzantine" substitute word for "sacramental", Rev. Fr. John?

Μυστηριάκι(ον).

Is this word in common use to refer to all such things? I have never come across it, only the names of the objects themselves, or categories of objects.

Or little Sacraments since the Greek word for Sacrament is Mystery.

Fr John W. Morris
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« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2013, 04:44:31 PM »

huh, there is this older woman i used to do sundry maintenance work for, in her apartment, she's a Catholic author. That lady, although she must have way more money than I make, she would never tip me, but instead i got loads of rosaries, medals and novena booklets, scapulars etc from her. I can't say i used them, but I'm sure one rosary with beads colored in rainbow colors is still hanging on a nail on a wall somewhere at my place .


Hey, if you don't want those Catholic sacramentals, send them my way! Cheesy

Orthodox do not use the term sacramentals because we believe that the entire life of the Church is sacramental. Therefore, any blessing of anything is sacramental.

Fr. John W. Morris

Semantics. What would be the proper "byzantine" substitute word for "sacramental", Rev. Fr. John?


I do not know that we have one. However, we bless everything; homes, cars, new wine, everything.

Fr. John W. Morris
So do Catholics.
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« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2013, 06:02:44 PM »

Isa went ballistic again.
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« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2013, 06:10:27 PM »


Although it was during the day a fierce storm made it so dark in St. Peters and lightening struck the dome when the 1st Vatican Council voted to declare the dogma of papal infallibility.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2013, 06:34:56 PM »


Although it was during the day a fierce storm made it so dark in St. Peters and lightening struck the dome when the 1st Vatican Council voted to declare the dogma of papal infallibility.

Fr. John W. Morris

I like your caption Father!  Grin
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« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2013, 02:07:05 PM »


Although it was during the day a fierce storm made it so dark in St. Peters and lightening struck the dome when the 1st Vatican Council voted to declare the dogma of papal infallibility.

Fr. John W. Morris

LOL. And Orthodox put icons of Theotokos under the doormat to disgrace her. Love such folklore.
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« Reply #69 on: December 23, 2013, 12:16:18 PM »

Here's a link to a book that talks about the storms during the opening and closing sessions of the First Vatican Council:

http://books.google.com/books?id=oW0wAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=vatican+lightning&source=bl&ots=T3BAFyKHjm&sig=22nE8k_yAiUcjjp3WY2UPUzu4U4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P8IaUavDFaaV0QHxgYHABw&ved=0CGQQ6AEwBzj6AQ#v=onepage&q=vatican%20lightning&f=false

It mentions terrible storm with lightning those days, but not that lightning struke the dome at the precise moment the dogma was declared.  The footnotes give the witness of a Protestant observer who is clearly against the formulation.
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« Reply #70 on: December 23, 2013, 12:38:29 PM »

huh, there is this older woman i used to do sundry maintenance work for, in her apartment, she's a Catholic author. That lady, although she must have way more money than I make, she would never tip me, but instead i got loads of rosaries, medals and novena booklets, scapulars etc from her. I can't say i used them, but I'm sure one rosary with beads colored in rainbow colors is still hanging on a nail on a wall somewhere at my place .


Hey, if you don't want those Catholic sacramentals, send them my way! Cheesy

Orthodox do not use the term sacramentals because we believe that the entire life of the Church is sacramental. Therefore, any blessing of anything is sacramental.

Fr. John W. Morris

Semantics. What would be the proper "byzantine" substitute word for "sacramental", Rev. Fr. John?


I do not know that we have one. However, we bless everything; homes, cars, new wine, everything.

Fr. John W. Morris
So do Catholics.

Some divergent theology, a big (and most important) difference about the meaning of a 'universal' church and 'primacy', varying degrees of distorted and factual histories and semantics. Over and over again and again.

Let's give it a rest and put it aside for the next few weeks and rejoice in the Birth of our Saviour as both the New and Old calendars work their way through the season and let us humbly and sincerely pray for peace and for the  protection for all Christians suffering in war zones and elsewhere.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 12:39:01 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2014, 02:51:50 PM »

I'd maybe take it a bit further to say that devotions are practices of piety that are directed to a specific aspect/person/event, etc. Think "devote," as in "devoted to a specific cause." Just what I'm thinking.

This is basically how I would define them.  The only thing I might add is that they differ from "liturgy" (Mass, Sacraments, Divine Office) in that liturgy is the public prayer of the Church, while "devotions", even if practiced by many people, are essentially "private" prayer. 

My brother,

On this point, I'd disagree insofar as, it seems to me, communal devotions, at least those led by a member of the clergy, constitute public prayer - albeit not a service of worship.

Many years,

Neil

  • The Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos
  • The Paraclesis (Small Canon to the Theotokos

are both examples of devotions or services that can be led by the clergy or chanted by people in their own homes.

Private recitation of the Jesus Prayer can also be called a devotion.

However, the Holy Mysteries, the Hours, and the Divine Liturgy are part of the Prayers of the Church.

I do not think that  sharp line can be drawn between public and private prayer, because  even our private prayers should come from the  official prayer of the Church. Even in our private devotions, we do not just make it up as we go along like many Protestants.

Fr. John W. Morris
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