OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 16, 2014, 09:20:59 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags CHAT Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Catholic Sacramentals  (Read 1480 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
dcointin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 61


« on: December 05, 2013, 05:56:16 PM »

I would like to hear opinions on the use of Catholic sacramentals for Western-Rite Orthodoxy.  My sacramentals I mean scapulars, miraculous medals, sacred heart paintings, and anything similar.

Many thanks!
Logged
WPM
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,776


« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 06:27:17 PM »

Western Rite is extension of the Antiochian Archdiocese ... (Not Catholic but Orthodoxy in the West)
Logged
dcointin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 61


« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 06:47:34 PM »

Quite right!  I'm a member of an Antiochian Western-Rite parish that uses the Liturgy of St. Gregory.
Logged
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,216

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 10:37:42 PM »

The Right Rev. Edward Hughes wrote a foundational document on WRO called "Paraliturgical Devotions of the Western Church and their Role in Orthodoxy" which you can order from St. Luke's Priory Press. In it he rejects any devotion to miraculous medals, Sacred Heart prayers that were "maudlin" (not that they all were, or that there cannot be a place for such devotion) and really anything post-Schism that is not in keeping with Orthodox theology.

The Antiochian WRV certainly doesn't hold to a no-Post-Schism mentality, so it's not like these types of things are rejected outright. The only criteria should be a thing's consonance with our holy faith.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 2,982



« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 10:41:33 PM »

The Antiochian WRV certainly doesn't hold to a no-Post-Schism mentality, so it's not like these types of things are rejected outright. The only criteria should be a thing's consonance with our holy faith.

While not WR myself, this is pretty much how I feel.
Logged

Liberalochian: Ecumenism Lite™
dcointin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 61


« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2013, 10:46:11 AM »

The Right Rev. Edward Hughes wrote a foundational document on WRO called "Paraliturgical Devotions of the Western Church and their Role in Orthodoxy" which you can order from St. Luke's Priory Press. In it he rejects any devotion to miraculous medals, Sacred Heart prayers that were "maudlin" (not that they all were, or that there cannot be a place for such devotion) and really anything post-Schism that is not in keeping with Orthodox theology.

The Antiochian WRV certainly doesn't hold to a no-Post-Schism mentality, so it's not like these types of things are rejected outright. The only criteria should be a thing's consonance with our holy faith.

Thank you so much, that will prove an excellent resource for my parish!  Without reading it, I would assume that his objection to the miraculous medal would be based on its connection to the Immaculate Conception? 
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,604



« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2013, 11:00:37 AM »

The Antiochian WRV certainly doesn't hold to a no-Post-Schism mentality, so it's not like these types of things are rejected outright. The only criteria should be a thing's consonance with our holy faith.

While not WR myself, this is pretty much how I feel.
+1
for one thing, the DL shouldn't be in Latin.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
dcointin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 61


« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2013, 11:18:48 AM »

Any more thoughts on why some devotions are acceptable and not others?  I personally don't find the need for devotions we use to be pre-schism.   One, the separation between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches took place over time so the question of what date we would use becomes problematic in the case of some.  Two, the Antiochian model has never been to recreate the Church as it existed in a past point in time, but rather to use existing forms and adapt them for Orthodox use.  Three, I don't see the theological problems with these devotions, strictly speaking.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 2,982



« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2013, 12:11:45 PM »

Any more thoughts on why some devotions are acceptable and not others?  I personally don't find the need for devotions we use to be pre-schism.   One, the separation between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches took place over time so the question of what date we would use becomes problematic in the case of some.  Two, the Antiochian model has never been to recreate the Church as it existed in a past point in time, but rather to use existing forms and adapt them for Orthodox use.  Three, I don't see the theological problems with these devotions, strictly speaking.

It will probably depend on who answers. Some will say any development after the time of the schism (dated either strictly around 1054 or Lyon II at the latest) is graceless and therefore useless at best and harmful/heretical at worst, even some devotions before were already slipping outside of Orthodoxy. These will vehemently disagree with the "Antiochian model," as you put it.

Others will say that those devotions keeping with Orthodox theology are fine, but those that don't are not. I'm not terribly familiar with sacramentals, so I'll give an example of apparition-devotions: AFAIK Our Lady of Walsingham (arguably pre-schism, but just grant it's post-schism for the example) is completely Orthodox in doctrine, so Walsingham-based devotions are just fine. Our Lady of Fatima OTOH is not (e.g. purgatory, implicit affirmation of Papal claims, etc.), and so Fatima-derived devotions are terribly suspect at best.

I think sacramentals and other devotions would be analogous, so those that don't rely on (or derive from) assumptions at odds with Orthodoxy are okay. An example being the green scapular, being dedicated to the Immaculate Conception, or even more potentially problematic is the brown scapular. OTOH, I think some scapulars may be fine, generally those with little to no promises built around them or devotion to particular Latin dogmas. The Miraculous Medal would fall into the problematic category, being entirely a devotion to the Immaculate Conception - of course, presuming one does think IC is un-Orthodox. Sacred Heart devotions have their promoters and naysayers, probably within and without the "Antiochian model." Some say it offers a distorting Christological devotion, among other reasons, at odds with traditional ones, others say it doesn't also for a number of reasons. Another issue sometimes brought up is that Sacred Heart paintings are often not icons, with people saying only icons should be venerated in such a way. Same goes for Immaculate Heart of Mary, or the much more strange and fringe body-based devotions (an example of which I can't recall, but others may).

It really has to depend on the particular devotion in question, since they all vary so widely with many ranges of theological assumptions.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 12:12:31 PM by Nephi » Logged

Liberalochian: Ecumenism Lite™
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 12,017


Lion of Judah, Lion of Arabs, Lion of Everyone


WWW
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 12:44:57 PM »

It really has to depend on the particular devotion in question, since they all vary so widely with many ranges of theological assumptions.

+1
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: <Insert your favourite patriotic attribute here> Orthodox
Posts: 5,935



« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2013, 01:10:04 PM »

The Antiochian WRV certainly doesn't hold to a no-Post-Schism mentality, so it's not like these types of things are rejected outright. The only criteria should be a thing's consonance with our holy faith.

While not WR myself, this is pretty much how I feel.
+1
for one thing, the DL shouldn't be in .

I like Latin. That's how the West has pretty much always celebrated. No objection to vernacular languages from me either though.

Logged

Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


WWW
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2013, 02:14:28 PM »

Can someone explain to me what "devotion" is? I have problems to get the forum definition for that.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
lovesupreme
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 705


Out of This World


« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2013, 02:18:56 PM »

Can someone explain to me what "devotion" is? I have problems to get the forum definition for that.

Devotions, in this context, are religious observances. Praying the rosary is a devotion. At least, that's how I've always understood the term.

And did you mean "formal" definition?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 02:19:49 PM by lovesupreme » Logged
Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


WWW
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2013, 02:21:26 PM »

Can someone explain to me what "devotion" is? I have problems to get the forum definition for that.

Devotions, in this context, are religious observances. Praying the rosary is a devotion. At least, that's how I've always understood the term.

Sow how specified icons or beliefs fit into that definition?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
dcointin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 61


« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2013, 02:22:13 PM »

I would like to be more specific then and mention some particular devotions.

Let's start with the Brown Scapular:

http://www.carmelitedcj.org/saints/scapular.asp

Logged
lovesupreme
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 705


Out of This World


« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2013, 02:25:53 PM »

Can someone explain to me what "devotion" is? I have problems to get the forum definition for that.

Devotions, in this context, are religious observances. Praying the rosary is a devotion. At least, that's how I've always understood the term.

Sow how specified icons or beliefs fit into that definition?

I don't think they would. A devotion would be, again, praying the rosary, wearing one's scapular, praying novenas to the saints. See here for more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_devotions
Logged
Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


WWW
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2013, 02:29:29 PM »

Can someone explain to me what "devotion" is? I have problems to get the forum definition for that.

Devotions, in this context, are religious observances. Praying the rosary is a devotion. At least, that's how I've always understood the term.

Sow how specified icons or beliefs fit into that definition?

I don't think they would. A devotion would be, again, praying the rosary, wearing one's scapular, praying novenas to the saints. See here for more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_devotions

Someone here wrote Icon of Walshingam is a devotion. In another one - Sacred Heart is a devotion...
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Nephi
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 2,982



« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 02:30:49 PM »

Can someone explain to me what "devotion" is? I have problems to get the forum definition for that.

Devotions, in this context, are religious observances. Praying the rosary is a devotion. At least, that's how I've always understood the term.

Sow how specified icons or beliefs fit into that definition?

I don't think they would. A devotion would be, again, praying the rosary, wearing one's scapular, praying novenas to the saints. See here for more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_devotions

Specific icons might actually fit as devotions. An akathist hymn to the Kursk Root Icon would (IMO) count as a devotion.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 02:31:38 PM by Nephi » Logged

Liberalochian: Ecumenism Lite™
Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


WWW
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 02:34:44 PM »

Can someone explain to me what "devotion" is? I have problems to get the forum definition for that.

Devotions, in this context, are religious observances. Praying the rosary is a devotion. At least, that's how I've always understood the term.

Sow how specified icons or beliefs fit into that definition?

I don't think they would. A devotion would be, again, praying the rosary, wearing one's scapular, praying novenas to the saints. See here for more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_devotions

Specific icons might actually fit as devotions. An akathist hymn to the Kursk Root Icon would (IMO) count as a devotion.

So for me definition of devotion is something like "religious stuff people do" and I cannot get any closer than that.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
lovesupreme
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 705


Out of This World


« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2013, 02:35:01 PM »

Specific icons might actually fit as devotions. An akathist hymn to the Kursk Root Icon would (IMO) count as a devotion.

True. I think the requirement for a "devotion" is some sort of action, usually a prayer. Thus, the Sacred Heart itself is not a devotion, but saying prayers that recognize the Sacred Heart is a devotion.
Logged
lovesupreme
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 705


Out of This World


« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2013, 02:37:23 PM »

So for me definition of devotion is something like "religious stuff people do" and I cannot get any closer than that.

I think we all have that definition in mind. As the Wikipedia article states, devotions are "'external practices of piety' which are not part of the official liturgy of the Catholic Church." Basically, things religious people do to build or strengthen their faith or dedication to Christ and His Church.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 2,982



« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2013, 02:40:59 PM »

True. I think the requirement for a "devotion" is some sort of action, usually a prayer. Thus, the Sacred Heart itself is not a devotion, but saying prayers that recognize the Sacred Heart is a devotion.

Sounds about right.

So for me definition of devotion is something like "religious stuff people do" and I cannot get any closer than that.

I think we all have that definition in mind. As the Wikipedia article states, devotions are "'external practices of piety' which are not part of the official liturgy of the Catholic Church." Basically, things religious people do to build or strengthen their faith or dedication to Christ and His Church.

I'd maybe take it a bit further to say that devotions are practices of piety that are directed to a specific aspect/person/event, etc. Think "devote," as in "devoted to a specific cause." Just what I'm thinking.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 02:42:06 PM by Nephi » Logged

Liberalochian: Ecumenism Lite™
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 12,017


Lion of Judah, Lion of Arabs, Lion of Everyone


WWW
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2013, 03:53:25 PM »

I'd maybe take it a bit further to say that devotions are practices of piety that are directed to a specific aspect/person/event, etc. Think "devote," as in "devoted to a specific cause." Just what I'm thinking.

This is basically how I would define them.  The only thing I might add is that they differ from "liturgy" (Mass, Sacraments, Divine Office) in that liturgy is the public prayer of the Church, while "devotions", even if practiced by many people, are essentially "private" prayer. 
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 12,017


Lion of Judah, Lion of Arabs, Lion of Everyone


WWW
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2013, 04:02:41 PM »

I would like to be more specific then and mention some particular devotions.

Let's start with the Brown Scapular:

http://www.carmelitedcj.org/saints/scapular.asp



Personally, there are only two problems I see with the Brown Scapular devotion:

1.  The Sabbatine Privilege, based on a vision of doubtful credibility even by RC standards, but rooted in the doctrine of purgatory.  The official RC stance, AFAIK, is that this may be acceptable as a pious belief or hope, but is not to be preached, encouraged, etc.  In a WRO context, I would think that ignoring this aspect entirely would be acceptable. 
2.  Affiliation with the Carmelite Order, which, unless this somehow exists in WRO and I've never heard of it, would mean affiliation with a spiritual organisation outside the visible bounds of the Church.  By RC standards, this happens when a properly deputised priest bestows the scapular through an approved rite.  Going to a RC priest for this purpose is probably a no-no.  I suppose a WRO priest might observe the rite, but again, unless there's actually a Carmelite Order within WRO, there would be no affiliation, and so this problem would also be eliminated.   

If these are avoided, and it's just a matter of wearing the scapular and practicing the devotions associated with it (e.g., Little Office, Rosary/fasting, etc.), as a way of commending yourself in a particular way to the Mother of God, I don't see how wearing it is such a big deal.
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
wainscottbl
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Somewhere between Rome and Constantinople (Roman Catholic investigating Eastern Orthodoxy)
Posts: 764


Tunc dicit ei Jesus: Vade Satana!


« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2013, 05:05:16 PM »

Since I have not made my final decision yet as my sidebar shows, I am speaking as a Catholic seriously considering Eastern Orthodoxy. Since I have no Western Rite Orthodox Church, I will be going to a Greek or Antiochian rite parish in the meantime when I get a chance, though I would prefer a a Russian Orthodox parish. In any case I still like much of the Western European culture and literature, such as Dante which of course includes his poem about the journey through Purgatory. But I also like some pagan literature but of course don't believe in Zeus!

But I still have my scapular though I do not wear it, and Miraculous Medals. My problem with them from an Orthodox perspective is they imply some sort of magic in sacramentals like this. I know this is not what is meant by if you wear them you will be protected from hell fire, but it creates an idea that by wearing certain things you are promised salvation. But I have heard some priests say that they are not magical and that this does not mean of course that you can go around sinning. But the promise does seem to be that if you wear them you will go to Paradise and the Holy Theotokos will make sure you die a good death. And I think they are a good means to lead a notorious sinner to a good life, even if he superficially wears them, because even in all his sins it shows he is still giving some thought to God and religion. Which may be superficial, but we do not know all the factors of his sin and should hope that before he dies or at the hour of his death he repents. So I am not condemning this idea in itself. But I think it creates a general mentality that these sacramentals a means of salvation in themselves.

Sadly, as the worst of sinners I must say the menas of salvation is the mercy and love of God; the love and goodness of our Holy Theotkos and her prayers; the power of all the angels, especially our guardian angel and moving more and more towards holiness. It isn't easy, especially if you started sinning at a young age. Getting out of the sexual sins is so hard as is getting out of thinking hateful and nasty thoughts. Controlling thoughts is really hard because sometimes they just come and then we relish them before we really get a hold on them. And then like a wild horse that can be quite a job! The hardest part is our own work. Letting the Theotokos and angels do theirs is pretty easy, but I do not like to think we can do this by just wearing a scapular or medal. And I know most good Catholics do not actually believe it is as simple as this, and in Catholic terms it is not, but it does create a bad principle. God have mercy on me if I have done any harm. My own thoughts.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 05:06:15 PM by wainscottbl » Logged

"I thought I should be too miserable, unless folded in female arms; and of the medicine of Thy mercy to cure that infirmity I thought not, not having tried it. As for continency..none can be continent unless [God] gives it."  --St. Augustine of Hippo
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2013, 05:51:11 PM »

I would like to be more specific then and mention some particular devotions.

Let's start with the Brown Scapular:

http://www.carmelitedcj.org/saints/scapular.asp



Personally, there are only two problems I see with the Brown Scapular devotion:

1.  The Sabbatine Privilege, based on a vision of doubtful credibility even by RC standards, but rooted in the doctrine of purgatory.  The official RC stance, AFAIK, is that this may be acceptable as a pious belief or hope, but is not to be preached, encouraged, etc.  In a WRO context, I would think that ignoring this aspect entirely would be acceptable. 
2.  Affiliation with the Carmelite Order, which, unless this somehow exists in WRO and I've never heard of it, would mean affiliation with a spiritual organisation outside the visible bounds of the Church.  By RC standards, this happens when a properly deputised priest bestows the scapular through an approved rite.  Going to a RC priest for this purpose is probably a no-no.  I suppose a WRO priest might observe the rite, but again, unless there's actually a Carmelite Order within WRO, there would be no affiliation, and so this problem would also be eliminated.   

If these are avoided, and it's just a matter of wearing the scapular and practicing the devotions associated with it (e.g., Little Office, Rosary/fasting, etc.), as a way of commending yourself in a particular way to the Mother of God, I don't see how wearing it is such a big deal.

But the small scapular is simply a mini version of the larger monastic/order scapular on which it is based.  All the scapulars indicate (or are supposed to) membership in a third order secular or a confraternity.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,604



« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2013, 05:59:13 PM »

I would like to be more specific then and mention some particular devotions.

Let's start with the Brown Scapular:

http://www.carmelitedcj.org/saints/scapular.asp



Personally, there are only two problems I see with the Brown Scapular devotion:

1.  The Sabbatine Privilege, based on a vision of doubtful credibility even by RC standards, but rooted in the doctrine of purgatory.  The official RC stance, AFAIK, is that this may be acceptable as a pious belief or hope, but is not to be preached, encouraged, etc.  In a WRO context, I would think that ignoring this aspect entirely would be acceptable. 
2.  Affiliation with the Carmelite Order, which, unless this somehow exists in WRO and I've never heard of it, would mean affiliation with a spiritual organisation outside the visible bounds of the Church.  By RC standards, this happens when a properly deputised priest bestows the scapular through an approved rite.  Going to a RC priest for this purpose is probably a no-no.  I suppose a WRO priest might observe the rite, but again, unless there's actually a Carmelite Order within WRO, there would be no affiliation, and so this problem would also be eliminated.   

If these are avoided, and it's just a matter of wearing the scapular and practicing the devotions associated with it (e.g., Little Office, Rosary/fasting, etc.), as a way of commending yourself in a particular way to the Mother of God, I don't see how wearing it is such a big deal.

But the small scapular is simply a mini version of the larger monastic/order scapular on which it is based.  All the scapulars indicate (or are supposed to) membership in a third order secular or a confraternity.
Oh, it gets stretched more than that, Deacon.
Let me share a story, told on national broadcast Revelent Radio "Catholic Radio for real life":

The story is that no one can go to hell wearing the Brown scapular.  So the story goes, there was someone who decided to commit suicide, and swam out to drown.  But as far as he swam out, he couldn't go under.  Then in his dispair he tore off the scapular, and then he tried to swim back and drowned.

If it seems muddled, it was when they told the story.  My first question was how would they know that he swam out with the scapular and only drowned when he took it off.  Ouija board?

Such is how "irreformable Catholic teaching" is used in teaching this nonsense.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 12,017


Lion of Judah, Lion of Arabs, Lion of Everyone


WWW
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2013, 06:01:24 PM »

But the small scapular is simply a mini version of the larger monastic/order scapular on which it is based.  All the scapulars indicate (or are supposed to) membership in a third order secular or a confraternity.

Certainly, hence my second point: I have never heard of a Carmelite Order existing within WRO, but without a definite confirmation that there is no such thing, I didn't want to rule it out.  

Re: the brown scapular, perhaps it ought to indicate membership in a TOS or a confraternity, but how strictly is that observed today?  My impression is that the link is quite weak nowadays.  There is a parish staffed by Carmelites a few towns over, and they have a TOS in the parish: the scapular they wear is different from the "ordinary" brown scapular, they have regulations on when, where, how to wear it, etc., and they are clear that this is something different from the "ordinary" sacramental precisely because it is linked to the TOS.  
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,358


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2013, 06:03:54 PM »

Can someone explain to me what "devotion" is? I have problems to get the forum definition for that.

Devotions, in this context, are religious observances. Praying the rosary is a devotion. At least, that's how I've always understood the term.

Sow how specified icons or beliefs fit into that definition?

I don't think they would. A devotion would be, again, praying the rosary, wearing one's scapular, praying novenas to the saints. See here for more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_devotions

A devotion could also be praying/chanting the Small Canon to the Theotokos either during the Dormition Fast or daily.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,358


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2013, 06:07:03 PM »

I would like to be more specific then and mention some particular devotions.

Let's start with the Brown Scapular:

http://www.carmelitedcj.org/saints/scapular.asp



Personally, there are only two problems I see with the Brown Scapular devotion:

1.  The Sabbatine Privilege, based on a vision of doubtful credibility even by RC standards, but rooted in the doctrine of purgatory.  The official RC stance, AFAIK, is that this may be acceptable as a pious belief or hope, but is not to be preached, encouraged, etc.  In a WRO context, I would think that ignoring this aspect entirely would be acceptable. 
2.  Affiliation with the Carmelite Order, which, unless this somehow exists in WRO and I've never heard of it, would mean affiliation with a spiritual organisation outside the visible bounds of the Church.  By RC standards, this happens when a properly deputised priest bestows the scapular through an approved rite.  Going to a RC priest for this purpose is probably a no-no.  I suppose a WRO priest might observe the rite, but again, unless there's actually a Carmelite Order within WRO, there would be no affiliation, and so this problem would also be eliminated.   

If these are avoided, and it's just a matter of wearing the scapular and practicing the devotions associated with it (e.g., Little Office, Rosary/fasting, etc.), as a way of commending yourself in a particular way to the Mother of God, I don't see how wearing it is such a big deal.

But the small scapular is simply a mini version of the larger monastic/order scapular on which it is based.  All the scapulars indicate (or are supposed to) membership in a third order secular or a confraternity.
Oh, it gets stretched more than that, Deacon.
Let me share a story, told on national broadcast Revelent Radio "Catholic Radio for real life":

The story is that no one can go to hell wearing the Brown scapular.  So the story goes, there was someone who decided to commit suicide, and swam out to drown.  But as far as he swam out, he couldn't go under.  Then in his dispair he tore off the scapular, and then he tried to swim back and drowned.

If it seems muddled, it was when they told the story.  My first question was how would they know that he swam out with the scapular and only drowned when he took it off.  Ouija board?

Such is how "irreformable Catholic teaching" is used in teaching this nonsense.

I think I heard that story too. Apparently, this particular person scrupulously wore his brown scapular all the time, even when bathing and sleeping. However, it was not on his neck when they found his body.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2013, 06:09:58 PM »


Oh, it gets stretched more than that, Deacon.
Let me share a story, told on national broadcast Revelent Radio "Catholic Radio for real life":

The story is that no one can go to hell wearing the Brown scapular.  So the story goes, there was someone who decided to commit suicide, and swam out to drown.  But as far as he swam out, he couldn't go under.  Then in his dispair he tore off the scapular, and then he tried to swim back and drowned.

If it seems muddled, it was when they told the story.  My first question was how would they know that he swam out with the scapular and only drowned when he took it off.  Ouija board?

Such is how "irreformable Catholic teaching" is used in teaching this nonsense.

I am aware of much of the pious non-sense associated with the Carmelite scapular, among others.  My point was scapulars are first and foremost badges of membership in a particular Roman Catholic third order or confraternity that would make litle sense for an Orthodox to wear.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,358


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2013, 06:12:18 PM »

Since I have not made my final decision yet as my sidebar shows, I am speaking as a Catholic seriously considering Eastern Orthodoxy. Since I have no Western Rite Orthodox Church, I will be going to a Greek or Antiochian rite parish in the meantime when I get a chance, though I would prefer a a Russian Orthodox parish. In any case I still like much of the Western European culture and literature, such as Dante which of course includes his poem about the journey through Purgatory. But I also like some pagan literature but of course don't believe in Zeus!

But I still have my scapular though I do not wear it, and Miraculous Medals. My problem with them from an Orthodox perspective is they imply some sort of magic in sacramentals like this. I know this is not what is meant by if you wear them you will be protected from hell fire, but it creates an idea that by wearing certain things you are promised salvation. But I have heard some priests say that they are not magical and that this does not mean of course that you can go around sinning. But the promise does seem to be that if you wear them you will go to Paradise and the Holy Theotokos will make sure you die a good death. And I think they are a good means to lead a notorious sinner to a good life, even if he superficially wears them, because even in all his sins it shows he is still giving some thought to God and religion. Which may be superficial, but we do not know all the factors of his sin and should hope that before he dies or at the hour of his death he repents. So I am not condemning this idea in itself. But I think it creates a general mentality that these sacramentals a means of salvation in themselves.

Sadly, as the worst of sinners I must say the menas of salvation is the mercy and love of God; the love and goodness of our Holy Theotkos and her prayers; the power of all the angels, especially our guardian angel and moving more and more towards holiness. It isn't easy, especially if you started sinning at a young age. Getting out of the sexual sins is so hard as is getting out of thinking hateful and nasty thoughts. Controlling thoughts is really hard because sometimes they just come and then we relish them before we really get a hold on them. And then like a wild horse that can be quite a job! The hardest part is our own work. Letting the Theotokos and angels do theirs is pretty easy, but I do not like to think we can do this by just wearing a scapular or medal. And I know most good Catholics do not actually believe it is as simple as this, and in Catholic terms it is not, but it does create a bad principle. God have mercy on me if I have done any harm. My own thoughts.

Regarding the brown or white scapular:

We Orthodox also celebrate the Feast Day of the Theotokos: Joy of All Who Sorrow on October 1 (New Calendar) or October 14 (O.S.). In this Icon of the Theotokos, Our Lady is shown holding a white piece of fabric (much like a Dominican white scapular) as a sign of Her Protection. It is She who has protected and saved us.

Most Holy Theotokos, save us.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2013, 06:42:20 PM »

But the small scapular is simply a mini version of the larger monastic/order scapular on which it is based.  All the scapulars indicate (or are supposed to) membership in a third order secular or a confraternity.

Certainly, hence my second point: I have never heard of a Carmelite Order existing within WRO, but without a definite confirmation that there is no such thing, I didn't want to rule it out.  

Re: the brown scapular, perhaps it ought to indicate membership in a TOS or a confraternity, but how strictly is that observed today?  My impression is that the link is quite weak nowadays.  There is a parish staffed by Carmelites a few towns over, and they have a TOS in the parish: the scapular they wear is different from the "ordinary" brown scapular, they have regulations on when, where, how to wear it, etc., and they are clear that this is something different from the "ordinary" sacramental precisely because it is linked to the TOS.  

Yes my aunt is a Carmelite TOS and they wear a much bigger small scapular.  I believe all the third orders may do this to distinguish TOS from confraternity members.  However, the investure prayer makes it clear one is joining a confraternity:
 
"Receive this scapular as the sign of your acceptance into the confraternity of the religious family of N., which is dedicated to the N. (blessed Trinity, passion of Christ, blessed Virgin Mary, etc.) Live in such a way that, with the help of the Mother of God, you may more and more put on Christ, who redeemed us by his blood, for the glory of the Trinity and for the service of the Church and of your neighbor.  Amen." (from the Roman Ritual approved for the US)

Now one can certainly buy a scapular and just wear it but that is not how it is supposed to be done.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 06:43:30 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
JoeS2
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 992


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2013, 07:05:08 PM »

I would like to hear opinions on the use of Catholic sacramentals for Western-Rite Orthodoxy.  My sacramentals I mean scapulars, miraculous medals, sacred heart paintings, and anything similar.

Many thanks!

Put this under "we now know better": "The Brown Scapula if worn continually will protect you but if you happen to die while wearing it, you will go straight to heaven" This was imprinted into my skull in Catholic Elementary School by the good Sisters of St. Joseph.  
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 07:05:57 PM by JoeS2 » Logged
Irish Melkite
Information Mongeror
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite Greek-Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Posts: 964


WWW
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2013, 08:14:13 PM »

I'd maybe take it a bit further to say that devotions are practices of piety that are directed to a specific aspect/person/event, etc. Think "devote," as in "devoted to a specific cause." Just what I'm thinking.

This is basically how I would define them.  The only thing I might add is that they differ from "liturgy" (Mass, Sacraments, Divine Office) in that liturgy is the public prayer of the Church, while "devotions", even if practiced by many people, are essentially "private" prayer. 

My brother,

On this point, I'd disagree insofar as, it seems to me, communal devotions, at least those led by a member of the clergy, constitute public prayer - albeit not a service of worship.

Many years,

Neil
Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
ThePapist
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 41



« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2013, 09:11:16 PM »

I would like to hear opinions on the use of Catholic sacramentals for Western-Rite Orthodoxy.  My sacramentals I mean scapulars, miraculous medals, sacred heart paintings, and anything similar.

Many thanks!

Put this under "we now know better": "The Brown Scapula if worn continually will protect you but if you happen to die while wearing it, you will go straight to heaven" This was imprinted into my skull in Catholic Elementary School by the good Sisters of St. Joseph.  

I wear the Brown Scapular every single day as a Catholic. No, it is not an automatic ticket to heaven like many non-Catholics think. I understand how it could be conceived that way but it is not. The Brown Scapular is just a sign of our devotion to God and the Blessed Virgin. It is a sign of salvation that by devout wearing of it, one would be saved from the fires of hell and suffer less in purgatory. It is not a ticket into heaven but a promise of devotion to the Blessed Virgin and a guarantee of her protection and intercession.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2013, 09:18:13 PM »

I would like to hear opinions on the use of Catholic sacramentals for Western-Rite Orthodoxy.  My sacramentals I mean scapulars, miraculous medals, sacred heart paintings, and anything similar.

Many thanks!

Put this under "we now know better": "The Brown Scapula if worn continually will protect you but if you happen to die while wearing it, you will go straight to heaven" This was imprinted into my skull in Catholic Elementary School by the good Sisters of St. Joseph.  

I wear the Brown Scapular every single day as a Catholic. No, it is not an automatic ticket to heaven like many non-Catholics think. I understand how it could be conceived that way but it is not. The Brown Scapular is just a sign of our devotion to God and the Blessed Virgin. It is a sign of salvation that by devout wearing of it, one would be saved from the fires of hell and suffer less in purgatory. It is not a ticket into heaven but a promise of devotion to the Blessed Virgin and a guarantee of her protection and intercession.

You wouldn't happen to be Devin would you?
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2013, 09:22:07 PM »

Put this under "we now know better": "The Brown Scapula if worn continually will protect you but if you happen to die while wearing it, you will go straight to heaven" This was imprinted into my skull in Catholic Elementary School by the good Sisters of St. Joseph.  

If you died while you were in Elementary School, there's a pretty good chance you would go straight to heaven no matter what. The good Sisters were just hedging their bets to instill a good habit into you.
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 12,017


Lion of Judah, Lion of Arabs, Lion of Everyone


WWW
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2013, 11:52:41 PM »

On this point, I'd disagree insofar as, it seems to me, communal devotions, at least those led by a member of the clergy, constitute public prayer - albeit not a service of worship.

We're probably saying the same thing differently.  Smiley
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,358


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2013, 12:02:07 AM »

I'd maybe take it a bit further to say that devotions are practices of piety that are directed to a specific aspect/person/event, etc. Think "devote," as in "devoted to a specific cause." Just what I'm thinking.

This is basically how I would define them.  The only thing I might add is that they differ from "liturgy" (Mass, Sacraments, Divine Office) in that liturgy is the public prayer of the Church, while "devotions", even if practiced by many people, are essentially "private" prayer. 

My brother,

On this point, I'd disagree insofar as, it seems to me, communal devotions, at least those led by a member of the clergy, constitute public prayer - albeit not a service of worship.

Many years,

Neil

  • The Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos
  • The Paraclesis (Small Canon to the Theotokos

are both examples of devotions or services that can be led by the clergy or chanted by people in their own homes.

Private recitation of the Jesus Prayer can also be called a devotion.

However, the Holy Mysteries, the Hours, and the Divine Liturgy are part of the Prayers of the Church.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,021


« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2013, 12:18:24 AM »

I'd maybe take it a bit further to say that devotions are practices of piety that are directed to a specific aspect/person/event, etc. Think "devote," as in "devoted to a specific cause." Just what I'm thinking.

This is basically how I would define them.  The only thing I might add is that they differ from "liturgy" (Mass, Sacraments, Divine Office) in that liturgy is the public prayer of the Church, while "devotions", even if practiced by many people, are essentially "private" prayer. 

My brother,

On this point, I'd disagree insofar as, it seems to me, communal devotions, at least those led by a member of the clergy, constitute public prayer - albeit not a service of worship.

Many years,

Neil

  • The Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos
  • The Paraclesis (Small Canon to the Theotokos

are both examples of devotions or services that can be led by the clergy or chanted by people in their own homes.

Private recitation of the Jesus Prayer can also be called a devotion.

However, the Holy Mysteries, the Hours, and the Divine Liturgy are part of the Prayers of the Church.

Both the Akathist Hymn and the Paraclesis are also public services. We serve the Akthist Hymn on Fridays of Great Lent. We chant the Little and Great Paraclesis on alternate days during the Lent of the Theotokos in August. One can pray every service privately in the home, except for the Divine Liturgy which must always be a pubic service. I usually pray the parts from the Daily Oktotchos and Menaion, as well as when appropriate the Lenten Triodion and Pentecostarion for Vespers and Matins every day at home.

Fr. John W. Morris
Logged
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,021


« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2013, 12:28:37 AM »

The Right Rev. Edward Hughes wrote a foundational document on WRO called "Paraliturgical Devotions of the Western Church and their Role in Orthodoxy" which you can order from St. Luke's Priory Press. In it he rejects any devotion to miraculous medals, Sacred Heart prayers that were "maudlin" (not that they all were, or that there cannot be a place for such devotion) and really anything post-Schism that is not in keeping with Orthodox theology.

The Antiochian WRV certainly doesn't hold to a no-Post-Schism mentality, so it's not like these types of things are rejected outright. The only criteria should be a thing's consonance with our holy faith.

First it is the Very Rev. Edward Hughes. He is an Archpriest not an Archimandrite. An Archpriest is a Very Rev. An Archimandrite is The Rt. Rev. Fr. Ed. is married. He has changed his mind on the Sacred Heart and now accepts it.

Fr. John W. Morris
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,358


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2013, 12:54:08 AM »

I'd maybe take it a bit further to say that devotions are practices of piety that are directed to a specific aspect/person/event, etc. Think "devote," as in "devoted to a specific cause." Just what I'm thinking.

This is basically how I would define them.  The only thing I might add is that they differ from "liturgy" (Mass, Sacraments, Divine Office) in that liturgy is the public prayer of the Church, while "devotions", even if practiced by many people, are essentially "private" prayer. 

My brother,

On this point, I'd disagree insofar as, it seems to me, communal devotions, at least those led by a member of the clergy, constitute public prayer - albeit not a service of worship.

Many years,

Neil

  • The Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos
  • The Paraclesis (Small Canon to the Theotokos

are both examples of devotions or services that can be led by the clergy or chanted by people in their own homes.

Private recitation of the Jesus Prayer can also be called a devotion.

However, the Holy Mysteries, the Hours, and the Divine Liturgy are part of the Prayers of the Church.

Both the Akathist Hymn and the Paraclesis are also public services. We serve the Akthist Hymn on Fridays of Great Lent. We chant the Little and Great Paraclesis on alternate days during the Lent of the Theotokos in August. One can pray every service privately in the home, except for the Divine Liturgy which must always be a pubic service. I usually pray the parts from the Daily Oktotchos and Menaion, as well as when appropriate the Lenten Triodion and Pentecostarion for Vespers and Matins every day at home.

Fr. John W. Morris

If the laity can pray the Akathist Hymn and the Paraclesis at home, can these be called "devotions"?
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,358


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2013, 12:55:32 AM »

The Right Rev. Edward Hughes wrote a foundational document on WRO called "Paraliturgical Devotions of the Western Church and their Role in Orthodoxy" which you can order from St. Luke's Priory Press. In it he rejects any devotion to miraculous medals, Sacred Heart prayers that were "maudlin" (not that they all were, or that there cannot be a place for such devotion) and really anything post-Schism that is not in keeping with Orthodox theology.

The Antiochian WRV certainly doesn't hold to a no-Post-Schism mentality, so it's not like these types of things are rejected outright. The only criteria should be a thing's consonance with our holy faith.

First it is the Very Rev. Edward Hughes. He is an Archpriest not an Archimandrite. An Archpriest is a Very Rev. An Archimandrite is The Rt. Rev. Fr. Ed. is married. He has changed his mind on the Sacred Heart and now accepts it.

Fr. John W. Morris

Has he written anything about the Sacred Heart and why he has changed his mind?

Does the Antiochian Archdiocese accept his beliefs in the Sacred Heart as "Orthodox"?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 12:56:03 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,021


« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2013, 02:00:03 AM »

I'd maybe take it a bit further to say that devotions are practices of piety that are directed to a specific aspect/person/event, etc. Think "devote," as in "devoted to a specific cause." Just what I'm thinking.

This is basically how I would define them.  The only thing I might add is that they differ from "liturgy" (Mass, Sacraments, Divine Office) in that liturgy is the public prayer of the Church, while "devotions", even if practiced by many people, are essentially "private" prayer. 

My brother,

On this point, I'd disagree insofar as, it seems to me, communal devotions, at least those led by a member of the clergy, constitute public prayer - albeit not a service of worship.

Many years,

Neil

  • The Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos
  • The Paraclesis (Small Canon to the Theotokos

are both examples of devotions or services that can be led by the clergy or chanted by people in their own homes.

Private recitation of the Jesus Prayer can also be called a devotion.

However, the Holy Mysteries, the Hours, and the Divine Liturgy are part of the Prayers of the Church.

Both the Akathist Hymn and the Paraclesis are also public services. We serve the Akthist Hymn on Fridays of Great Lent. We chant the Little and Great Paraclesis on alternate days during the Lent of the Theotokos in August. One can pray every service privately in the home, except for the Divine Liturgy which must always be a pubic service. I usually pray the parts from the Daily Oktotchos and Menaion, as well as when appropriate the Lenten Triodion and Pentecostarion for Vespers and Matins every day at home.

Fr. John W. Morris

If the laity can pray the Akathist Hymn and the Paraclesis at home, can these be called "devotions"?

I suppose that whatever one prays privately is a devotion.

Fr. John W. Morris
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.171 seconds with 73 queries.