Author Topic: Ecumenical councils  (Read 12247 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2013, 06:27:41 PM »
The question is, do they need to formally accept the council to reunite with us? I don't think so. The agreement between St. Cyril and John of Antioch did not require the latter to formally accept Ephesus. Which again puts a big question mark on the idea that an ecumenical council is accepted by all the faithful.
To the contrary, it answers the question.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #91 on: December 05, 2013, 09:49:42 PM »
when he writes as private theologian
I notice you had no answer to the other questions.

And when does he write as a private theologian?
 
Have you ever heard of the books he publishes ? Like when Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI wrote private theological books and published those  books not as Pope Benedict, bishop of Rome but as Joseph Ratzinger the German theologian  
Does it have an imprimatur and nihil obstat?
Yes because he is still writing as a catholic theologian presenting catholic views
who issues it?

I don't know. I don't have the answers to everything and I'm not gonna pretend to.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 09:53:46 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #92 on: December 05, 2013, 09:56:26 PM »
Have you ever heard of the books he publishes ? Like when Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI wrote private theological books and published those  books not as Pope Benedict, bishop of Rome but as Joseph Ratzinger the German theologian  
Does it have an imprimatur and nihil obstat?
Yes because he is still writing as a catholic theologian presenting catholic views
who issues it?

I don't know. I don't have the answers to everything and I'm nit gonna pretend to.

Actually, IIRC Pope Ratzinger's Jesus of Nazareth trilogy has neither nihil obstat nor imprimatur. 
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2013, 10:11:24 PM »
I'm curious to known what makes a council ecumenical in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy?


Acceptance by the faithful.   His sheep shall know His voice. 

I've always had a problem with this explanation and honestly think this is not the true Orthodox answer. Its Ahistorical as none of the 7 ecumenical councils were accepted by all faithful... None of them

IIRC, Constantinople II was accepted without much controversy.
Hardly.  There was a large schism for decades over it in the West.  And the Archbishop of Rome was struck from the diptychs by the Fathers of the Council until he submitted to it.

For that reason, I've seen a number of Ultramontanists try to back track on it, like they have with their council of Pisa, and engage in revisionism of its degrees, like they have with their council of Constance.

He never rejected the council for doctrinal reasons but for political reasons :

"...Already in the seventh session of the council Justinian caused the name of Vigilius to be stricken from the diptychs, without prejudice, however, it was said, to communion with the Apostolic See. Soon the Roman clergy and people, now freed by Narses from the Gothic yoke, requested the emperor to permit the return of the pope, which Justinian agreed to on condition that Vigilius would recognize the late council. This Vigilius finally agreed to do, and in two documents (a letter to Eutychius of Constantinople, 8 Dec., 553, and a second "Constitutum" of 23 Feb., 554, probably addressed to the Western episcopate) condemned, at last, the Three Chapters (Mansi, IX, 424-20, 457-88; cf. Hefele, II, 905-11), independently, however, and without mention of the council. His opposition had never been based on doctrinal grounds but on the decency and opportuneness of the measures proposed, the wrongful imperial violence, and a delicate fear of injury to the authority of the Council of Chalcedon, especially in the West. Here, indeed, despite the additional recognition of it by Pelagius I (555-60), the Fifth General Council only gradually acquired in public opinion an ecumenical character. In Northern Italy the ecclesiastical provinces of Milan and Aquileia broke off communion with the Apostolic See; the former yielding only towards the end of the sixth century, whereas the latter (Aquileia-Grado) protracted its resistance to about 700 (Hefele, op. cit., II, 911-27). (For an equitable appreciation of the conduct of Vigilius see, besides the article VIGILIUS, the judgment of Bois, in Dict. de théol. cath., II, 1238-39.) The pope was always correct as to the doctrine involved, and yielded, for the sake of peace, only when he was satisfied that there was no fear for the authority of Chalcedon, which he at first, with the entire West, deemed in peril from the machinations of the Monophysites..."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308b.htm
” Where there is no love, pour love in, and you will draw love out.”
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Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for us. Amen

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2013, 07:22:51 AM »
The question is, do they need to formally accept the council to reunite with us? I don't think so. The agreement between St. Cyril and John of Antioch did not require the latter to formally accept Ephesus. Which again puts a big question mark on the idea that an ecumenical council is accepted by all the faithful.
To the contrary, it answers the question.

If you mean that it shows that reception of an ecumenical council by all the faithful is unnecessary, then I agree.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2013, 08:37:18 AM »
Am I the only one to think that holding to the faith of the Councils is more important than having the correct list of Councils?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2013, 08:56:32 AM »
Am I the only one to think that holding to the faith of the Councils is more important than having the correct list of Councils?

I think that's basically what I and others have just said. Which makes the whole argument about "How do you know a council is ecumenical without the Pope"? unnecessary.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 08:57:07 AM by Iconodule »
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2013, 09:00:58 AM »
Well, then we answered the OP's question.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2013, 09:14:34 AM »
I'm curious to known what makes a council ecumenical in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy?


Acceptance by the faithful.   His sheep shall know His voice. 

I've always had a problem with this explanation and honestly think this is not the true Orthodox answer. Its Ahistorical as none of the 7 ecumenical councils were accepted by all faithful... None of them

IIRC, Constantinople II was accepted without much controversy.
Hardly.  There was a large schism for decades over it in the West.  And the Archbishop of Rome was struck from the diptychs by the Fathers of the Council until he submitted to it.

For that reason, I've seen a number of Ultramontanists try to back track on it, like they have with their council of Pisa, and engage in revisionism of its degrees, like they have with their council of Constance.

He never rejected the council for doctrinal reasons but for political reasons :

"...Already in the seventh session of the council Justinian caused the name of Vigilius to be stricken from the diptychs, without prejudice, however, it was said, to communion with the Apostolic See. Soon the Roman clergy and people, now freed by Narses from the Gothic yoke, requested the emperor to permit the return of the pope, which Justinian agreed to on condition that Vigilius would recognize the late council. This Vigilius finally agreed to do, and in two documents (a letter to Eutychius of Constantinople, 8 Dec., 553, and a second "Constitutum" of 23 Feb., 554, probably addressed to the Western episcopate) condemned, at last, the Three Chapters (Mansi, IX, 424-20, 457-88; cf. Hefele, II, 905-11), independently, however, and without mention of the council. His opposition had never been based on doctrinal grounds but on the decency and opportuneness of the measures proposed, the wrongful imperial violence, and a delicate fear of injury to the authority of the Council of Chalcedon, especially in the West. Here, indeed, despite the additional recognition of it by Pelagius I (555-60), the Fifth General Council only gradually acquired in public opinion an ecumenical character. In Northern Italy the ecclesiastical provinces of Milan and Aquileia broke off communion with the Apostolic See; the former yielding only towards the end of the sixth century, whereas the latter (Aquileia-Grado) protracted its resistance to about 700 (Hefele, op. cit., II, 911-27). (For an equitable appreciation of the conduct of Vigilius see, besides the article VIGILIUS, the judgment of Bois, in Dict. de théol. cath., II, 1238-39.) The pope was always correct as to the doctrine involved, and yielded, for the sake of peace, only when he was satisfied that there was no fear for the authority of Chalcedon, which he at first, with the entire West, deemed in peril from the machinations of the Monophysites..."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308b.htm
Tsk, tsk.  I know you know better.  Back on CAF which spawned this thread
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=833565&page=13
Cavaraodossi has supplied Archbishop (I'm sure if they were popes quite yet) Vigilius' "Apostolic" Constitutions defending the Three Chapters.  That they further cause problems for in view of Pastor Aeternus (a ex cathedra statement upholding the heretical Letter Attributed to Ibas) doesn't obscure that.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2013, 09:16:27 AM »
when he writes as private theologian
I notice you had no answer to the other questions.

And when does he write as a private theologian?
 
Have you ever heard of the books he publishes ? Like when Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI wrote private theological books and published those  books not as Pope Benedict, bishop of Rome but as Joseph Ratzinger the German theologian  
Does it have an imprimatur and nihil obstat?
Yes because he is still writing as a catholic theologian presenting catholic views
who issues it?

I don't know. I don't have the answers to everything and I'm not gonna pretend to.
Why stop now?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2013, 09:17:27 AM »
Have you ever heard of the books he publishes ? Like when Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI wrote private theological books and published those  books not as Pope Benedict, bishop of Rome but as Joseph Ratzinger the German theologian  
Does it have an imprimatur and nihil obstat?
Yes because he is still writing as a catholic theologian presenting catholic views
who issues it?

I don't know. I don't have the answers to everything and I'm nit gonna pretend to.

Actually, IIRC Pope Ratzinger's Jesus of Nazareth trilogy has neither nihil obstat nor imprimatur. 
and it would be interesting to know why that is.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alpo

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2013, 09:20:00 AM »
Have you ever heard of the books he publishes ? Like when Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI wrote private theological books and published those  books not as Pope Benedict, bishop of Rome but as Joseph Ratzinger the German theologian  
Does it have an imprimatur and nihil obstat?
Yes because he is still writing as a catholic theologian presenting catholic views
who issues it?

I don't know. I don't have the answers to everything and I'm nit gonna pretend to.

Actually, IIRC Pope Ratzinger's Jesus of Nazareth trilogy has neither nihil obstat nor imprimatur. 
and it would be interesting to know why that is.

Maybe he was trying to emphasize that he is writing as an individual and not as a pope.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Romaios

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2013, 09:38:15 AM »
Maybe he was trying to emphasize that he is writing as an individual and not as a pope.

Quite the contrary - he did write it as pope.

Pontifical documents, encyclical letters, etc. usually come without imprimaturs (translations thereof might need a stamp of approval, though, to show they "concord with the original").
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:42:54 AM by Romaios »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2013, 11:25:13 AM »
Actually, IIRC Pope Ratzinger's Jesus of Nazareth trilogy has neither nihil obstat nor imprimatur. 
and it would be interesting to know why that is.

For one thing, it's no longer required by their canon law.  Encouraged, maybe, but not necessary anymore.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2013, 11:46:24 AM »
Have you ever heard of the books he publishes ? Like when Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI wrote private theological books and published those  books not as Pope Benedict, bishop of Rome but as Joseph Ratzinger the German theologian  
Does it have an imprimatur and nihil obstat?
Yes because he is still writing as a catholic theologian presenting catholic views
who issues it?

I don't know. I don't have the answers to everything and I'm nit gonna pretend to.

Actually, IIRC Pope Ratzinger's Jesus of Nazareth trilogy has neither nihil obstat nor imprimatur. 
True and Most books of Catholic authors such as Bishop Fulton Sheen, Father Benedict Groeschel, Peter Kreeft, and Eugene Kennedy have no Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat.

I guess maybe the Pope might not need one as it is needed from the local overseer... It kind a follows that book of bishops like Jesus of Nazareth written by PBXVI have neither as the process would end with themselves
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Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for us. Amen

Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2013, 11:48:42 AM »
I'm curious to known what makes a council ecumenical in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy?


Acceptance by the faithful.   His sheep shall know His voice. 

I've always had a problem with this explanation and honestly think this is not the true Orthodox answer. Its Ahistorical as none of the 7 ecumenical councils were accepted by all faithful... None of them

IIRC, Constantinople II was accepted without much controversy.
Hardly.  There was a large schism for decades over it in the West.  And the Archbishop of Rome was struck from the diptychs by the Fathers of the Council until he submitted to it.

For that reason, I've seen a number of Ultramontanists try to back track on it, like they have with their council of Pisa, and engage in revisionism of its degrees, like they have with their council of Constance.

He never rejected the council for doctrinal reasons but for political reasons :

"...Already in the seventh session of the council Justinian caused the name of Vigilius to be stricken from the diptychs, without prejudice, however, it was said, to communion with the Apostolic See. Soon the Roman clergy and people, now freed by Narses from the Gothic yoke, requested the emperor to permit the return of the pope, which Justinian agreed to on condition that Vigilius would recognize the late council. This Vigilius finally agreed to do, and in two documents (a letter to Eutychius of Constantinople, 8 Dec., 553, and a second "Constitutum" of 23 Feb., 554, probably addressed to the Western episcopate) condemned, at last, the Three Chapters (Mansi, IX, 424-20, 457-88; cf. Hefele, II, 905-11), independently, however, and without mention of the council. His opposition had never been based on doctrinal grounds but on the decency and opportuneness of the measures proposed, the wrongful imperial violence, and a delicate fear of injury to the authority of the Council of Chalcedon, especially in the West. Here, indeed, despite the additional recognition of it by Pelagius I (555-60), the Fifth General Council only gradually acquired in public opinion an ecumenical character. In Northern Italy the ecclesiastical provinces of Milan and Aquileia broke off communion with the Apostolic See; the former yielding only towards the end of the sixth century, whereas the latter (Aquileia-Grado) protracted its resistance to about 700 (Hefele, op. cit., II, 911-27). (For an equitable appreciation of the conduct of Vigilius see, besides the article VIGILIUS, the judgment of Bois, in Dict. de théol. cath., II, 1238-39.) The pope was always correct as to the doctrine involved, and yielded, for the sake of peace, only when he was satisfied that there was no fear for the authority of Chalcedon, which he at first, with the entire West, deemed in peril from the machinations of the Monophysites..."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308b.htm
Tsk, tsk.  I know you know better.  Back on CAF which spawned this thread
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=833565&page=13
Cavaraodossi has supplied Archbishop (I'm sure if they were popes quite yet) Vigilius' "Apostolic" Constitutions defending the Three Chapters.  That they further cause problems for in view of Pastor Aeternus (a ex cathedra statement upholding the heretical Letter Attributed to Ibas) doesn't obscure that.

seen the thread on CAF a few weeks ago. Mardukum dealt adequately to disprove Cavaradossi's assertions :)
” Where there is no love, pour love in, and you will draw love out.”
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Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for us. Amen

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2013, 12:36:16 PM »
I guess maybe the Pope might not need one as it is needed from the local overseer... It kind a follows that book of bishops like Jesus of Nazareth written by PBXVI have neither as the process would end with themselves

An imprimatur can be granted not only by the local ordinary of the author, but also by the ordinary of the place where the book will be published.  It is conceivable, then, that a Pope could ask for an imprimatur from the bishop of the place where Doubleday or whatever is located. 

But your point makes the point: if a Pope doesn't need an imprimatur because "the process would end with himself", how can he write as a private theologian?  He can only do that now that the whole process for ecclesiastical approval of books is not obligatory, and still it is not without controversy (e.g., Benedict XVI's controversial statement on condom use and its controversial clarification by the Vatican). 
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Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2013, 12:50:10 PM »
I'm curious to known what makes a council ecumenical in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy?


Acceptance by the faithful.   His sheep shall know His voice.  

I've always had a problem with this explanation and honestly think this is not the true Orthodox answer. Its Ahistorical as none of the 7 ecumenical councils were accepted by all faithful... None of them

IIRC, Constantinople II was accepted without much controversy.
Hardly.  There was a large schism for decades over it in the West.  And the Archbishop of Rome was struck from the diptychs by the Fathers of the Council until he submitted to it.

For that reason, I've seen a number of Ultramontanists try to back track on it, like they have with their council of Pisa, and engage in revisionism of its degrees, like they have with their council of Constance.

He never rejected the council for doctrinal reasons but for political reasons :

"...Already in the seventh session of the council Justinian caused the name of Vigilius to be stricken from the diptychs, without prejudice, however, it was said, to communion with the Apostolic See. Soon the Roman clergy and people, now freed by Narses from the Gothic yoke, requested the emperor to permit the return of the pope, which Justinian agreed to on condition that Vigilius would recognize the late council. This Vigilius finally agreed to do, and in two documents (a letter to Eutychius of Constantinople, 8 Dec., 553, and a second "Constitutum" of 23 Feb., 554, probably addressed to the Western episcopate) condemned, at last, the Three Chapters (Mansi, IX, 424-20, 457-88; cf. Hefele, II, 905-11), independently, however, and without mention of the council. His opposition had never been based on doctrinal grounds but on the decency and opportuneness of the measures proposed, the wrongful imperial violence, and a delicate fear of injury to the authority of the Council of Chalcedon, especially in the West. Here, indeed, despite the additional recognition of it by Pelagius I (555-60), the Fifth General Council only gradually acquired in public opinion an ecumenical character. In Northern Italy the ecclesiastical provinces of Milan and Aquileia broke off communion with the Apostolic See; the former yielding only towards the end of the sixth century, whereas the latter (Aquileia-Grado) protracted its resistance to about 700 (Hefele, op. cit., II, 911-27). (For an equitable appreciation of the conduct of Vigilius see, besides the article VIGILIUS, the judgment of Bois, in Dict. de théol. cath., II, 1238-39.) The pope was always correct as to the doctrine involved, and yielded, for the sake of peace, only when he was satisfied that there was no fear for the authority of Chalcedon, which he at first, with the entire West, deemed in peril from the machinations of the Monophysites..."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308b.htm
Tsk, tsk.  I know you know better.  Back on CAF which spawned this thread
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=833565&page=13
Cavaraodossi has supplied Archbishop (I'm sure if they were popes quite yet) Vigilius' "Apostolic" Constitutions defending the Three Chapters.  That they further cause problems for in view of Pastor Aeternus (a ex cathedra statement upholding the heretical Letter Attributed to Ibas) doesn't obscure that.

seen the thread on CAF a few weeks ago. Mardukum dealt adequately to disprove Cavaradossi's assertions :)
No, he failed as usual, and Cavaradossi, as usual was spot on with the documents, which he, unlike Mardukm often does not, provides always.  Hence Cavaradossi demonstrates, not asserts.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 01:22:14 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2013, 01:12:19 PM »
I guess maybe the Pope might not need one as it is needed from the local overseer... It kind a follows that book of bishops like Jesus of Nazareth written by PBXVI have neither as the process would end with themselves

An imprimatur can be granted not only by the local ordinary of the author, but also by the ordinary of the place where the book will be published.  It is conceivable, then, that a Pope could ask for an imprimatur from the bishop of the place where Doubleday or whatever is located. 

But your point makes the point: if a Pope doesn't need an imprimatur because "the process would end with himself", how can he write as a private theologian?  He can only do that now that the whole process for ecclesiastical approval of books is not obligatory, and still it is not without controversy (e.g., Benedict XVI's controversial statement on condom use and its controversial clarification by the Vatican). 
Exactly.  Where any of the writings of prior "Supreme Pontiffs" ever given a imprimatur or nihil obstat when the Vatican required that de rigueur?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2013, 02:04:52 PM »
I guess maybe the Pope might not need one as it is needed from the local overseer... It kind a follows that book of bishops like Jesus of Nazareth written by PBXVI have neither as the process would end with themselves

An imprimatur can be granted not only by the local ordinary of the author, but also by the ordinary of the place where the book will be published.  It is conceivable, then, that a Pope could ask for an imprimatur from the bishop of the place where Doubleday or whatever is located.  

But your point makes the point: if a Pope doesn't need an imprimatur because "the process would end with himself", how can he write as a private theologian?   He can only do that now that the whole process for ecclesiastical approval of books is not obligatory, and still it is not without controversy (e.g., Benedict XVI's controversial statement on condom use and its controversial clarification by the Vatican).  

Easy by just doing so ...as many fathers in the past did so... Writing their own books for personal reflection not as a source of teaching for their congregations. That definition of writing in personal/theological capacity. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI even said the book was how own private work did he not?

Just like when Bishop Fulton Sheen wrote some books. They weren't bishops letter s that have teachings authority on the dioceses buy were merely his own personal works or else bishop Fulton sheen . According to your logic, could not write as a private theologian too  :-\
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 02:07:02 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2013, 02:09:44 PM »
I guess maybe the Pope might not need one as it is needed from the local overseer... It kind a follows that book of bishops like Jesus of Nazareth written by PBXVI have neither as the process would end with themselves

An imprimatur can be granted not only by the local ordinary of the author, but also by the ordinary of the place where the book will be published.  It is conceivable, then, that a Pope could ask for an imprimatur from the bishop of the place where Doubleday or whatever is located. 

But your point makes the point: if a Pope doesn't need an imprimatur because "the process would end with himself", how can he write as a private theologian?  He can only do that now that the whole process for ecclesiastical approval of books is not obligatory, and still it is not without controversy (e.g., Benedict XVI's controversial statement on condom use and its controversial clarification by the Vatican). 
Exactly.  Where any of the writings of prior "Supreme Pontiffs" ever given a imprimatur or nihil obstat when the Vatican required that de rigueur?

All the process seeks to achieve is to allows regular Catholics to read documents free from any teaching contradictory to the Catholic Faith. It is not to determine whether you may or may not write as a private theologian or not
.. So why are we even discussing this again? What's the point you are trying to get at?
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2013, 02:12:31 PM »
I'm curious to known what makes a council ecumenical in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy?


Acceptance by the faithful.   His sheep shall know His voice.  

I've always had a problem with this explanation and honestly think this is not the true Orthodox answer. Its Ahistorical as none of the 7 ecumenical councils were accepted by all faithful... None of them

IIRC, Constantinople II was accepted without much controversy.
Hardly.  There was a large schism for decades over it in the West.  And the Archbishop of Rome was struck from the diptychs by the Fathers of the Council until he submitted to it.

For that reason, I've seen a number of Ultramontanists try to back track on it, like they have with their council of Pisa, and engage in revisionism of its degrees, like they have with their council of Constance.

He never rejected the council for doctrinal reasons but for political reasons :

"...Already in the seventh session of the council Justinian caused the name of Vigilius to be stricken from the diptychs, without prejudice, however, it was said, to communion with the Apostolic See. Soon the Roman clergy and people, now freed by Narses from the Gothic yoke, requested the emperor to permit the return of the pope, which Justinian agreed to on condition that Vigilius would recognize the late council. This Vigilius finally agreed to do, and in two documents (a letter to Eutychius of Constantinople, 8 Dec., 553, and a second "Constitutum" of 23 Feb., 554, probably addressed to the Western episcopate) condemned, at last, the Three Chapters (Mansi, IX, 424-20, 457-88; cf. Hefele, II, 905-11), independently, however, and without mention of the council. His opposition had never been based on doctrinal grounds but on the decency and opportuneness of the measures proposed, the wrongful imperial violence, and a delicate fear of injury to the authority of the Council of Chalcedon, especially in the West. Here, indeed, despite the additional recognition of it by Pelagius I (555-60), the Fifth General Council only gradually acquired in public opinion an ecumenical character. In Northern Italy the ecclesiastical provinces of Milan and Aquileia broke off communion with the Apostolic See; the former yielding only towards the end of the sixth century, whereas the latter (Aquileia-Grado) protracted its resistance to about 700 (Hefele, op. cit., II, 911-27). (For an equitable appreciation of the conduct of Vigilius see, besides the article VIGILIUS, the judgment of Bois, in Dict. de théol. cath., II, 1238-39.) The pope was always correct as to the doctrine involved, and yielded, for the sake of peace, only when he was satisfied that there was no fear for the authority of Chalcedon, which he at first, with the entire West, deemed in peril from the machinations of the Monophysites..."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308b.htm
Tsk, tsk.  I know you know better.  Back on CAF which spawned this thread
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=833565&page=13
Cavaraodossi has supplied Archbishop (I'm sure if they were popes quite yet) Vigilius' "Apostolic" Constitutions defending the Three Chapters.  That they further cause problems for in view of Pastor Aeternus (a ex cathedra statement upholding the heretical Letter Attributed to Ibas) doesn't obscure that.

seen the thread on CAF a few weeks ago. Mardukum dealt adequately to disprove Cavaradossi's assertions :)
No, he failed as usual, and Cavaradossi, as usual was spot on with the documents, which he, unlike Mardukm often does not, provides always.  Hence Cavaradossi demonstrates, not asserts.

Clearly we disagree so lets leave it then? Coz I'm not gonna get into "nuh-uh... Uh-huh" spat over who proved who wrong between mardukum and cavaradossi
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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2013, 03:10:18 PM »
seen the thread on CAF a few weeks ago. Mardukum dealt adequately to disprove Cavaradossi's assertions :)

If that's true I'll eat my hat.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2013, 03:25:12 PM »
I'm curious to known what makes a council ecumenical in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy?


Acceptance by the faithful.   His sheep shall know His voice.  

I've always had a problem with this explanation and honestly think this is not the true Orthodox answer. Its Ahistorical as none of the 7 ecumenical councils were accepted by all faithful... None of them

IIRC, Constantinople II was accepted without much controversy.
Hardly.  There was a large schism for decades over it in the West.  And the Archbishop of Rome was struck from the diptychs by the Fathers of the Council until he submitted to it.

For that reason, I've seen a number of Ultramontanists try to back track on it, like they have with their council of Pisa, and engage in revisionism of its degrees, like they have with their council of Constance.

He never rejected the council for doctrinal reasons but for political reasons :

"...Already in the seventh session of the council Justinian caused the name of Vigilius to be stricken from the diptychs, without prejudice, however, it was said, to communion with the Apostolic See. Soon the Roman clergy and people, now freed by Narses from the Gothic yoke, requested the emperor to permit the return of the pope, which Justinian agreed to on condition that Vigilius would recognize the late council. This Vigilius finally agreed to do, and in two documents (a letter to Eutychius of Constantinople, 8 Dec., 553, and a second "Constitutum" of 23 Feb., 554, probably addressed to the Western episcopate) condemned, at last, the Three Chapters (Mansi, IX, 424-20, 457-88; cf. Hefele, II, 905-11), independently, however, and without mention of the council. His opposition had never been based on doctrinal grounds but on the decency and opportuneness of the measures proposed, the wrongful imperial violence, and a delicate fear of injury to the authority of the Council of Chalcedon, especially in the West. Here, indeed, despite the additional recognition of it by Pelagius I (555-60), the Fifth General Council only gradually acquired in public opinion an ecumenical character. In Northern Italy the ecclesiastical provinces of Milan and Aquileia broke off communion with the Apostolic See; the former yielding only towards the end of the sixth century, whereas the latter (Aquileia-Grado) protracted its resistance to about 700 (Hefele, op. cit., II, 911-27). (For an equitable appreciation of the conduct of Vigilius see, besides the article VIGILIUS, the judgment of Bois, in Dict. de théol. cath., II, 1238-39.) The pope was always correct as to the doctrine involved, and yielded, for the sake of peace, only when he was satisfied that there was no fear for the authority of Chalcedon, which he at first, with the entire West, deemed in peril from the machinations of the Monophysites..."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308b.htm
Tsk, tsk.  I know you know better.  Back on CAF which spawned this thread
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=833565&page=13
Cavaraodossi has supplied Archbishop (I'm sure if they were popes quite yet) Vigilius' "Apostolic" Constitutions defending the Three Chapters.  That they further cause problems for in view of Pastor Aeternus (a ex cathedra statement upholding the heretical Letter Attributed to Ibas) doesn't obscure that.

seen the thread on CAF a few weeks ago. Mardukum dealt adequately to disprove Cavaradossi's assertions :)
No, he failed as usual, and Cavaradossi, as usual was spot on with the documents, which he, unlike Mardukm often does not, provides always.  Hence Cavaradossi demonstrates, not asserts.

Clearly we disagree so lets leave it then? Coz I'm not gonna get into "nuh-uh... Uh-huh" spat over who proved who wrong between mardukum and cavaradossi
I could just as easily show that Pope Vigilius rejected/opposed the Fifth Ecumenical Council on theological grounds, but why redo what Cavardossi has already done?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2013, 03:29:12 PM »
I'm curious to known what makes a council ecumenical in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy?


Acceptance by the faithful.   His sheep shall know His voice.  

I've always had a problem with this explanation and honestly think this is not the true Orthodox answer. Its Ahistorical as none of the 7 ecumenical councils were accepted by all faithful... None of them

IIRC, Constantinople II was accepted without much controversy.
Hardly.  There was a large schism for decades over it in the West.  And the Archbishop of Rome was struck from the diptychs by the Fathers of the Council until he submitted to it.

For that reason, I've seen a number of Ultramontanists try to back track on it, like they have with their council of Pisa, and engage in revisionism of its degrees, like they have with their council of Constance.

He never rejected the council for doctrinal reasons but for political reasons :

"...Already in the seventh session of the council Justinian caused the name of Vigilius to be stricken from the diptychs, without prejudice, however, it was said, to communion with the Apostolic See. Soon the Roman clergy and people, now freed by Narses from the Gothic yoke, requested the emperor to permit the return of the pope, which Justinian agreed to on condition that Vigilius would recognize the late council. This Vigilius finally agreed to do, and in two documents (a letter to Eutychius of Constantinople, 8 Dec., 553, and a second "Constitutum" of 23 Feb., 554, probably addressed to the Western episcopate) condemned, at last, the Three Chapters (Mansi, IX, 424-20, 457-88; cf. Hefele, II, 905-11), independently, however, and without mention of the council. His opposition had never been based on doctrinal grounds but on the decency and opportuneness of the measures proposed, the wrongful imperial violence, and a delicate fear of injury to the authority of the Council of Chalcedon, especially in the West. Here, indeed, despite the additional recognition of it by Pelagius I (555-60), the Fifth General Council only gradually acquired in public opinion an ecumenical character. In Northern Italy the ecclesiastical provinces of Milan and Aquileia broke off communion with the Apostolic See; the former yielding only towards the end of the sixth century, whereas the latter (Aquileia-Grado) protracted its resistance to about 700 (Hefele, op. cit., II, 911-27). (For an equitable appreciation of the conduct of Vigilius see, besides the article VIGILIUS, the judgment of Bois, in Dict. de théol. cath., II, 1238-39.) The pope was always correct as to the doctrine involved, and yielded, for the sake of peace, only when he was satisfied that there was no fear for the authority of Chalcedon, which he at first, with the entire West, deemed in peril from the machinations of the Monophysites..."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308b.htm
Tsk, tsk.  I know you know better.  Back on CAF which spawned this thread
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=833565&page=13
Cavaraodossi has supplied Archbishop (I'm sure if they were popes quite yet) Vigilius' "Apostolic" Constitutions defending the Three Chapters.  That they further cause problems for in view of Pastor Aeternus (a ex cathedra statement upholding the heretical Letter Attributed to Ibas) doesn't obscure that.

seen the thread on CAF a few weeks ago. Mardukum dealt adequately to disprove Cavaradossi's assertions :)
No, he failed as usual, and Cavaradossi, as usual was spot on with the documents, which he, unlike Mardukm often does not, provides always.  Hence Cavaradossi demonstrates, not asserts.

Clearly we disagree so lets leave it then? Coz I'm not gonna get into "nuh-uh... Uh-huh" spat over who proved who wrong between mardukum and cavaradossi
I could just as easily show that Pope Vigilius rejected/opposed the Fifth Ecumenical Council on theological grounds, but why redo what Cavardossi has already done?

Go ahead.. Do your best
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Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for us. Amen

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2013, 03:33:47 PM »
I guess maybe the Pope might not need one as it is needed from the local overseer... It kind a follows that book of bishops like Jesus of Nazareth written by PBXVI have neither as the process would end with themselves

An imprimatur can be granted not only by the local ordinary of the author, but also by the ordinary of the place where the book will be published.  It is conceivable, then, that a Pope could ask for an imprimatur from the bishop of the place where Doubleday or whatever is located. 

But your point makes the point: if a Pope doesn't need an imprimatur because "the process would end with himself", how can he write as a private theologian?  He can only do that now that the whole process for ecclesiastical approval of books is not obligatory, and still it is not without controversy (e.g., Benedict XVI's controversial statement on condom use and its controversial clarification by the Vatican). 
Exactly.  Where any of the writings of prior "Supreme Pontiffs" ever given a imprimatur or nihil obstat when the Vatican required that de rigueur?

All the process seeks to achieve is to allows regular Catholics to read documents free from any teaching contradictory to the Catholic Faith. It is not to determine whether you may or may not write as a private theologian or not
.. So why are we even discussing this again? What's the point you are trying to get at?
When isn't your supreme pontiff  speaking "infallibly", especially in view of this:
Lumen Gentium:
Quote
This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.
So if he doesn't speak ex cathedra, we have to act as if he did.  Big help, infallibility.
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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2013, 04:48:55 PM »
I guess maybe the Pope might not need one as it is needed from the local overseer... It kind a follows that book of bishops like Jesus of Nazareth written by PBXVI have neither as the process would end with themselves

An imprimatur can be granted not only by the local ordinary of the author, but also by the ordinary of the place where the book will be published.  It is conceivable, then, that a Pope could ask for an imprimatur from the bishop of the place where Doubleday or whatever is located.  

But your point makes the point: if a Pope doesn't need an imprimatur because "the process would end with himself", how can he write as a private theologian?   He can only do that now that the whole process for ecclesiastical approval of books is not obligatory, and still it is not without controversy (e.g., Benedict XVI's controversial statement on condom use and its controversial clarification by the Vatican).  

Easy by just doing so ...as many fathers in the past did so...

But only a small minority of those fathers claimed the prerogatives which the Roman Popes claim, and were treated accordingly by their faithful.

Quote
Writing their own books for personal reflection not as a source of teaching for their congregations. That definition of writing in personal/theological capacity. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI even said the book was how own private work did he not?

He said his book was not a magisterial act.  Very well.  But it's insane to think that a "book for personal reflection" that is also written by a world class theologian and Pope is going to be treated as a bedside diary.  It is most definitely received by the RC faithful as a source of teaching (see ialmisry's citation from Lumen Gentium).  It was most definitely written by a theologian Pope in order to teach Christian truth.  By your logic, it would be no big deal if a Pope wrote a "book of personal reflection" on God as a woman, as long as he doesn't try to do it from his throne in the Lateran Basilica.  That's stupid.   

Quote
Just like when Bishop Fulton Sheen wrote some books. They weren't bishops letter s that have teachings authority on the dioceses buy were merely his own personal works or else bishop Fulton sheen . According to your logic, could not write as a private theologian too  :-\

Make up your mind: either there is a difference between the Pope of Rome and the Bishop of Rochester, or there is not. 

Sheen can write books as a private theologian, and so can Ratzinger (one does wonder, however, what is the point of a "private theologian"...theology is not a hobby like collecting butterflies, it is at the service of the Church).  But a Pope will always trump a bishop in your system:

 

It's disingenuous for you to act as if a Pope writing a book is no different from anyone else writing a book.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2013, 02:27:34 PM »
I guess maybe the Pope might not need one as it is needed from the local overseer... It kind a follows that book of bishops like Jesus of Nazareth written by PBXVI have neither as the process would end with themselves

An imprimatur can be granted not only by the local ordinary of the author, but also by the ordinary of the place where the book will be published.  It is conceivable, then, that a Pope could ask for an imprimatur from the bishop of the place where Doubleday or whatever is located.  

But your point makes the point: if a Pope doesn't need an imprimatur because "the process would end with himself", how can he write as a private theologian?   He can only do that now that the whole process for ecclesiastical approval of books is not obligatory, and still it is not without controversy (e.g., Benedict XVI's controversial statement on condom use and its controversial clarification by the Vatican).  

Easy by just doing so ...as many fathers in the past did so...

But only a small minority of those fathers claimed the prerogatives which the Roman Popes claim, and were treated accordingly by their faithful.

universal truth is not measured in mass appeal... Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo and Gregory the Greats as well as Pope Damasus, Agatho and many others for their claims? Who reprimanded Maximus the confessor or patriarch John of jerusalem for his claims about the papacy? Or many other countless fathers of the west and the east who said the same?

Quote
He said his book was not a magisterial act.  Very well.  But it's insane to think that a "book for personal reflection" that is also written by a world class theologian and Pope is going to be treated as a bedside diary.  It is most definitely received by the RC faithful as a source of teaching (see ialmisry's citation from Lumen Gentium).  It was most definitely written by a theologian Pope in order to teach Christian truth.  By your logic, it would be no big deal if a Pope wrote a "book of personal reflection" on God as a woman, as long as he doesn't try to do it from his throne in the Lateran Basilica.  That's stupid.


That's not my logic . The fact is he can write as a private theologian. I never said his writings won't be a big deal or that it would be ok for him to teach heresy in those  writings. These writings are not binding on the faithful. What don't you get about that?

Quote
Make up your mind: either there is a difference between the Pope of Rome and the Bishop of Rochester, or there is not.


The popes universal authority is not attached to him being a bishop but to his role as head of the church. So there is no difference Mor. A bishop is a bishop.

Quote
can write books as a private theologian, and so can Ratzinger (one does wonder, however, what is the point of a "private theologian"...theology is not a hobby like collecting butterflies, it is at the service of the Church).  But a Pope will always trump a bishop in your system:


It certainly isn't but it helps to make a distinction between what is binding on the faithful and what is not. Just because the Popes writings might carry more weight due to who he is does not make them authoritative.

Quote
It's disingenuous for you to act as if a Pope writing a book is no different from anyone else writing a book.
And equally so its disingenuous of you to try imply that because a Popes writings carry more weight that that makes them automatically binding. That's stupid.
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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2013, 02:51:23 PM »
Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo

The majority of the Christians in Syria, Egypt and, at the time, Palestine.

and Gregory the Greats

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2013, 03:34:00 PM »
I guess maybe the Pope might not need one as it is needed from the local overseer... It kind a follows that book of bishops like Jesus of Nazareth written by PBXVI have neither as the process would end with themselves

An imprimatur can be granted not only by the local ordinary of the author, but also by the ordinary of the place where the book will be published.  It is conceivable, then, that a Pope could ask for an imprimatur from the bishop of the place where Doubleday or whatever is located.  

But your point makes the point: if a Pope doesn't need an imprimatur because "the process would end with himself", how can he write as a private theologian?   He can only do that now that the whole process for ecclesiastical approval of books is not obligatory, and still it is not without controversy (e.g., Benedict XVI's controversial statement on condom use and its controversial clarification by the Vatican).  

Easy by just doing so ...as many fathers in the past did so...

But only a small minority of those fathers claimed the prerogatives which the Roman Popes claim, and were treated accordingly by their faithful.

universal truth is not measured in mass appeal
It isn't dictated by the pretensions of bishop suffering megalomania either.  Especially when he has had to acquiesce to reality.

... Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo and Gregory the Greats as well as Pope Damasus, Agatho and many others for their claims
The Fathers of the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon and his suffragans in the Balkans (we have Pope St. Leo's to the Empress whining about that).

His suffragans in Sicily (Pope St. Gregory's famous line on the EP are in his letter trying to silence his critics for his imitation of Constantinopolitan ways).

The Fathers of the Second Ecumenical Council, and their successors until 399, over a decade after his death.

The Fathers of the Sixth Ecumenical Council-they went ahead for nearly a year after Pope St. Agatho reposed shortly after it opened.  Pope Leo II would not succeed Pope St. Agatho for nearly a year after the Council closed and issued its Decrees, including the anathema against Pope Honorius.

And Archbishop (definitely not "Pope" then) St. Victor I, the first to make such pretensions, as, as Eusbius records, was reprimanded by "the whole Church."

Who reprimanded Maximus the confessor
St. Maximus the Confessor, and the Fathers of the Sixth Ecumenical Council.
or patriarch John of jerusalem for his claims about the papacy?
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, and his successor Pat. St. Sophronios.

Or many other countless fathers of the west and the east who said the same?
That you so desperately wish to ignore context and cling to an obscure third hand (at least) quote unknown in 1870 just shows that you don't exactly have a great number of Fathers in the East to count on.

He said his book was not a magisterial act.  Very well.  But it's insane to think that a "book for personal reflection" that is also written by a world class theologian and Pope is going to be treated as a bedside diary.  It is most definitely received by the RC faithful as a source of teaching (see ialmisry's citation from Lumen Gentium).  It was most definitely written by a theologian Pope in order to teach Christian truth.  By your logic, it would be no big deal if a Pope wrote a "book of personal reflection" on God as a woman, as long as he doesn't try to do it from his throne in the Lateran Basilica.  That's stupid.

That's not my logic . The fact is he can write as a private theologian. I never said his writings won't be a big deal or that it would be ok for him to teach heresy in those  writings. These writings are not binding on the faithful. What don't you get about that?
How you get around Lumen Gentium 25.

And how you are fine if your supreme pontiff writes that God is a woman (not far off, with how far your Supreme Pontiff John Paul II let Maximillian Kolbe's semi-incarnated Immaculata and the Fifth Marian Dogma folks go).

Make up your mind: either there is a difference between the Pope of Rome and the Bishop of Rochester, or there is not.


The popes universal authority is not attached to him being a bishop but to his role as head of the church. So there is no difference Mor. A bishop is a bishop.
unless he is the bishop of Rome.  Or Avignon.

can write books as a private theologian, and so can Ratzinger (one does wonder, however, what is the point of a "private theologian"...theology is not a hobby like collecting butterflies, it is at the service of the Church).  But a Pope will always trump a bishop in your system:


It certainly isn't but it helps to make a distinction between what is binding on the faithful and what is not.
Lumen Gentium 25 renders that a distinction without a difference.

Just because the Popes writings might carry more weight due to who he is does not make them authoritative.
So the Winnipeg Statement is the equal of Humanae Vitae?

It's disingenuous for you to act as if a Pope writing a book is no different from anyone else writing a book.
And equally so its disingenuous of you to try imply that because a Popes writings carry more weight that that makes them automatically binding. That's stupid.
It is. And yet your "Apostolic Constantion" Lumen Gentium 25 mandates just that.
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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #120 on: December 07, 2013, 05:55:00 PM »
universal truth is not measured in mass appeal... Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo and Gregory the Greats as well as Pope Damasus, Agatho and many others for their claims? Who reprimanded Maximus the confessor or patriarch John of jerusalem for his claims about the papacy? Or many other countless fathers of the west and the east who said the same?

See above.  And thanks for the laugh: asking an OO Christian about who reprimanded Pope Leo?  ;)

Quote
That's not my logic . The fact is he can write as a private theologian. I never said his writings won't be a big deal or that it would be ok for him to teach heresy in those  writings. These writings are not binding on the faithful. What don't you get about that?

Wandile, the RC faith is not "if it's not ex cathedra, feel free to disagree as much as you want".  Yes, a Pope's "private writings" are not binding on the faithful in the sense that an ex cathedra statement would be, but LG 25 seems to be more inclusive than you want to admit:

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Among the principal duties of bishops the preaching of the Gospel occupies an eminent place. For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old, making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock. Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.

Lumen Gentium, 25

Notice, first of all, that when speaking of bishops in general (which includes the Pope), the council says "in matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent".  There's nothing about "ex cathedra" or "promulgations of ecumenical councils" or "papal infallibility" there.  It's simply "The job of bishops is to teach the faith and morality of the Church, and the faithful are to accept their teaching as from Christ".

When speaking specifically about the Pope, however, the council specifies that even when not invoking infallibility, what above applies to bishops in general is even more the case with the Pope.  The faithful's religious submission of mind and will "must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will".  The Pope's mind and will "may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking". 
 
You can fly a space shuttle through that gaping hole.  It is not nearly so restrictive as "not binding on the faithful unless it's ex cathedra", it is not as restrictive as you want us to believe in order to suit your polemic.  The average faithful Catholic gets that: only various stripes of conservative and liberal try to take advantage of the restriction for which you advocate.   

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The popes universal authority is not attached to him being a bishop but to his role as head of the church. So there is no difference Mor. A bishop is a bishop.

And yet, the Pope is only the Pope because he is elected by the clergy of Rome (Cardinals) as Bishop of Rome.  You can't claim that his universal authority comes from his Papacy and not his Episcopacy when his Papacy derives precisely from his Episcopacy. 

And as far as "a bishop is a bishop", see above.  In fact, read Vatican II in light of Vatican I and previous RC tradition. 

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And equally so its disingenuous of you to try imply that because a Popes writings carry more weight that that makes them automatically binding. That's stupid.

It's not that a Pope's writings are automatically binding on the faithful because they're a Pope's writings.  It's that, even if they're not "automatically binding", you still have to accept them with "religious submission of mind and will".  IOW, even if he says it's not infallible, you better treat it as if it is.   
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #121 on: December 07, 2013, 06:33:48 PM »


When speaking specifically about the Pope, however, the council specifies that even when not invoking infallibility, what above applies to bishops in general is even more the case with the Pope.  The faithful's religious submission of mind and will "must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will".  The Pope's mind and will "may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking".  
 
You can fly a space shuttle through that gaping hole.  It is not nearly so restrictive as "not binding on the faithful unless it's ex cathedra", it is not as restrictive as you want us to believe in order to suit your polemic.  The average faithful Catholic gets that: only various stripes of conservative and liberal try to take advantage of the restriction for which you advocate.    

Quote
The popes universal authority is not attached to him being a bishop but to his role as head of the church. So there is no difference Mor. A bishop is a bishop.

And yet, the Pope is only the Pope because he is elected by the clergy of Rome (Cardinals) as Bishop of Rome.  You can't claim that his universal authority comes from his Papacy and not his Episcopacy when his Papacy derives precisely from his Episcopacy.  

And as far as "a bishop is a bishop", see above.  In fact, read Vatican II in light of Vatican I and previous RC tradition.  

Quote
And equally so its disingenuous of you to try imply that because a Popes writings carry more weight that that makes them automatically binding. That's stupid.

It's not that a Pope's writings are automatically binding on the faithful because they're a Pope's writings.  It's that, even if they're not "automatically binding", you still have to accept them with "religious submission of mind and will".  IOW, even if he says it's not infallible, you better treat it as if it is.    


And the bolded language is significant in light of the first public statements Pope Francis made upon his election as Bishop of Rome - and why the same were tantalizing to the Orthodox. The tease was continued in his recent encyclical regarding the role of collegiality and the role of synods. We're certainly not holding our breath on this side of the divide, but it his papacy remains enigmatic and intriguing.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 06:34:49 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #122 on: December 07, 2013, 07:19:37 PM »
Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo

The majority of the Christians in Syria, Egypt and, at the time, Palestine.

for what exactly? The non-Chalcedonians you mean? The "reprimanded" him for his claims or orthodox tome?

Quote
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"

Why do many orthodox think this is a strike against the pope? It but agree with catholic teaching andbso do these quotes from the same man :) :

"As regards the Church of Constantinople, who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See? Why, both our most religious Lord the Emperor and our brother the Bishop of Constantinople continually acknowledge it" (Epistles 9:26).

"...the Apostolic See, which is the head of all other churches" (13:1).

, "I, albeit unworthy, have been set up in command of the Church"



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* EO/OO/RC Pejoratives -- Please do not use the following terms in your discussions as they are considered to be pejorative by other members of this forum: Uniate: Use Eastern Catholic (or their appropriate official title).  Monophysite: Please use Oriental Orthodox or Non-Chalcedonian.  Obviously, if you are discussing these terms in their true and historical sense then there is no problem using the term. What is being rejected is using this as a label to counter other members of the forum. As always, this does not imply that the board takes a position itself on these positions; this is merely a request to use civilized terminology & academic discussion standards in dialog on this forum.

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« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 11:22:40 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #123 on: December 07, 2013, 07:24:46 PM »
Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo

The majority of the Christians in Syria, Egypt and, at the time, Palestine.

for what exactly? The monophosites you mean? The "reprimanded" him for his claims or orthodox tome?
and his attempts to have it adopted as the definition of the Council

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"

Why do many orthodox think this is a strike against the pope? It but agree with catholic teaching andbso do these quotes from the same man :) :

"As regards the Church of Constantinople, who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See? Why, both our most religious Lord the Emperor and our brother the Bishop of Constantinople continually acknowledge it" (Epistles 9:26).

"...the Apostolic See, which is the head of all other churches" (13:1).

, "I, albeit unworthy, have been set up in command of the Church"
LOL. Have you ever read the entire letter, or just the excepts cut out for you?
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #124 on: December 07, 2013, 08:45:15 PM »
This thread on a letter from Pope Leo to St. Dioscoros may (or may not) contribute to this discussion:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43146.0.html#top

Offline Nicene

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #125 on: December 07, 2013, 11:08:07 PM »
When everyone says its eccumenical.
Thank you.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #126 on: December 08, 2013, 02:43:16 PM »
When everyone says its eccumenical.
That has never happened.

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #127 on: December 08, 2013, 02:47:27 PM »
Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo

The majority of the Christians in Syria, Egypt and, at the time, Palestine.

for what exactly? The non-Chalcedonians you mean? The "reprimanded" him for his claims or orthodox tome?

Obviously the Oriental Christians didn't consider him to be infallible or they wouldn't have rejected his tome.

Offline Nektarios_In_E.S.

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Wandile, once again, to answer your question:
« Reply #128 on: December 09, 2013, 10:30:54 AM »
In my humble opinion, I feel that this best answers Wandile's question, at least, in a basic straightforward way.  No personal opinions from my part about what I think constitutes an Ecumenical Council.  In case you did not see it the first time, here it is again:

Quote
I'm curious to known what makes a council ecumenical in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy?

In Eastern Orthodoxy, just like the Mysteries ("Sacraments"), we cannot really say we have 7 "concretely" but many more Mysteries ("Sacraments").  The same goes for the canon of Scripture being "concretely" reduced to 47 (or so OT books) and the 27 NT books.  In Orthodoxy, there were other synods which were convened -after the 7th, which could also be considered as "Ecumenical" in nature.  Here is some information regarding the "8th Ecumenical Synod" which may answer some -if not all- of your questions.
                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let us return, though, to the Eighth OEcumenical Synod. The Synod convened under the presidency of the “most holy OEcumenical Patriarch Photios”; around three hundred and ninety Bishops and Episcopal representatives took part; Pope John VIII appointed three delegates; and representatives of the three Patriarchates of the East also participated. The proceedings of the Synod commenced in November of 879 and concluded in March of 880. Seven sessions were held in all, and the transactions of this historic Synod in Hagia Sophia, “composed in Greek and preserved,” and published in 1705 by the illustrious Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem (1669-1707), as witnessed by a manuscript in the Athonite Monastery of Iveron.

The Holy Synod of 879-880 “was one of the most important Synods in the history of the Church,” and, being comprised of three hundred and ninety “Fathers, both Eastern and Western, representing the five Patriarchates, presented an imposing spectacle such as had not been seen since the time of the Fourth OEcumenical Synod of Chalcedon.”

The Synod of Hagia Sophia under St. Photios the Great bears all of the hallmarks of an OEcumenical Synod, both outwardly and inwardly, and consequently “it is not at all surprising that it was regarded as the Eighth OEcumenical Synod by [Patriarch Euythmios I (907-917)], Theodore Balsamon, Neilos of Thessalonica, Neilos of Rhodes, Symeon of Thessalonica, Mark of Ephesus, Gennadios Scholarios, Dositheos of Jerusalem, Constantine Oikonomos, and” many “others,” such as the important “Dialogue of a Certain Hieromnemon,” and by our contemporaries, St. Nectarios of Pentapolis, Archbishop Chrysostomos Papadoupoulos, Francis Dvornik, Archimandrite Basileios Stephanides, Father John Romanides, Protopresbyter George Metallinos, Metropolitan Hierotheos Blachos, et al. And this Synod also called itself OEcumenical in many places in its Proceedings and Canons, and Archimandrite Basileios Stephanides writes that “since it has not been officially recognized as the Eighth OEcumenical Synod, any OEcumenical Synod that may be convened in the future ought to deal with this issue.”

It is, however, time for us to identify “all of the canonical elements necessary for the convocation, work, and decisions of an OEcumenical Synod,” which elements, indeed, the illustrious and clearly anti-Papist Synod of Constantinople bring together in:
1. “Its convocation as an OEcumenical Synod, at which the five ancient Patriarchal thrones were represented”;
2. “its convocation by Emperor Basil I the Macedonian (867-886),” who “in fact, together with his sons, was the first to sign the dogmatic decree (Ὅρος) of the Synod and its Acts”;
3. “the large number of its members (338-390 Bishops)”;
4. “the functioning of the Synod in conformity with the traditional canonical functioning of the OEcumenical Synods”;
5. “its canonical regulations” (it promulgated three Canons);
6. “its stipulations about matters of Faith,” wherein, on pain of anathema, it designated that the Sacred Symbol of Faith (the Creed) was unalterable and inviolable;
7. “its clear awareness of its authenticity as an OEcumenical Synod,” as this is expressed “in its decision to number the Seventh OEcumenical Synod with the preceding OEcumenical Synods, which only OEcumenical Synods were entitled to do”;
8. and “the decisions made in this Synod, which were consonant with the decrees of the previous OEcumenical Synods, in accordance with the Tradition of the Church.”

The work accomplished by the great Synod of 879-880 was momentous both for that troubled period and for the future of the Church: it functioned in a unitive spirit on the basis of dogmatic Truth and ca-nonical Tradition; it condemned the alteration of the Symbol of Faith through the addition of the Filioque; ratified the Sacred Symbol as it was handed down to us by the first two OEcumenical Synods; and rejected the distortion of the simple Primacy of Honor due to the Bishop of Rome, who had transformed this into an administrative Primacy of Power over the entire Church.

St. Photios the Great also acted in a unitive spirit, refuted the Papal Primacy of Power and the adulteration of the Symbol of Faith with incontrovertible arguments, set forth the Orthodox positions with candor and clarity, and called upon the representatives of Pope John VIII to renounce their errors, which had led to the schism of 867.

St. Nectarios of Pentapolis states emphatically that
[t]he Eighth OEcumenical Synod has great importance [because] in this Synod Photios was triumphant..., his struggles for the independence of the Eastern Church were crowned with total success, and the Truth of Orthodoxy, for which he had toiled so hard, prevailed.... In a word, the triumph was complete: it was a political, an ecclesiastical, and a personal triumph.

:) hope that was helpful!

« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 10:31:54 AM by Nektarios_In_E.S. »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #129 on: December 09, 2013, 12:57:47 PM »
Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo

The majority of the Christians in Syria, Egypt and, at the time, Palestine.

for what exactly? The non-Chalcedonians you mean? The "reprimanded" him for his claims or orthodox tome?

Obviously the Oriental Christians didn't consider him to be infallible or they wouldn't have rejected his tome.

This logic is flawed. The pope is believed to be infallible today by catholics but yet some still dissent.

notice to isa and Mor... I'll reply by tomorrow . I've just been busy the past few days
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 01:01:19 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #130 on: December 09, 2013, 01:00:58 PM »
Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo

The majority of the Christians in Syria, Egypt and, at the time, Palestine.

for what exactly? The non-Chalcedonians you mean? The "reprimanded" him for his claims or orthodox tome?

Obviously the Oriental Christians didn't consider him to be infallible or they wouldn't have rejected his tome.

This logic is flawed. The pope is belueved infallble today by catholics but yet some still dessent.

But they don't anathematise the Pope because of an infallible document, call him accursed and refuse all communion with him. If they did, they obviously wouldn't believe him to be infallible.

Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #131 on: December 09, 2013, 01:07:25 PM »
Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo

The majority of the Christians in Syria, Egypt and, at the time, Palestine.

for what exactly? The non-Chalcedonians you mean? The "reprimanded" him for his claims or orthodox tome?

Obviously the Oriental Christians didn't consider him to be infallible or they wouldn't have rejected his tome.

This logic is flawed. The pope is belueved infallble today by catholics but yet some still dessent.

But they don't anathematise the Pope because of an infallible document, call him accursed and refuse all communion with him. If they did, they obviously wouldn't believe him to be infallible.
Sedevacantists
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #132 on: December 09, 2013, 01:11:23 PM »
Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo

The majority of the Christians in Syria, Egypt and, at the time, Palestine.

for what exactly? The non-Chalcedonians you mean? The "reprimanded" him for his claims or orthodox tome?

Obviously the Oriental Christians didn't consider him to be infallible or they wouldn't have rejected his tome.

This logic is flawed. The pope is belueved infallble today by catholics but yet some still dessent.

But they don't anathematise the Pope because of an infallible document, call him accursed and refuse all communion with him. If they did, they obviously wouldn't believe him to be infallible.
Sedevacantists

You think that the Oriental Orthodox were some sort of proto-sedevacantists?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #133 on: December 09, 2013, 01:50:14 PM »
Secondly who reprimanded Popes Leo

The majority of the Christians in Syria, Egypt and, at the time, Palestine.

for what exactly? The non-Chalcedonians you mean? The "reprimanded" him for his claims or orthodox tome?

Obviously the Oriental Christians didn't consider him to be infallible or they wouldn't have rejected his tome.

This logic is flawed. The pope is believed to be infallible today by catholics but yet some still dissent.
This logic is flawed.  The non-Chalcedonians never echoed that cognitive dissonance.
notice to isa and Mor... I'll reply by tomorrow . I've just been busy the past few days
No problem.  I understand things are busy in your neck of the woods.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenical councils
« Reply #134 on: December 10, 2013, 11:32:53 AM »
Wandile, the RC faith is not "if it's not ex cathedra, feel free to disagree as much as you want".  Yes, a Pope's "private writings" are not binding on the faithful in the sense that an ex cathedra statement would be, but LG 25 seems to be more inclusive than you want to admit
no you seem to not understand the capacity in which bishops can teach/write in the catholic church. Lumen Gentum 25 teaches that when a bishop teaches In his capacity as instructor of the faithful/overseer of the diocese then even though it's not ex cathedra, the bishops words are still binding as religious assent is demanded by the faithful. That's patristic.

however a bishop can write outside of his capacity as a instructor of the faith in the respective diocese. He can write as theologian I.e. Layman meaning the writing has no authority whatsoever as opposed to the regular bishops letter. Prime example is how PBXVI Jesus of Nazareth is not part of the faith of the church nor teaching instruction. Its a private writing for anybody to read, criticize and reflect over.  Another is like the books bishop Fulton sheen wrote were not binding on his diocese as the merely private reflection of theological ideas he had.

Quote
When speaking specifically about the Pope, however, the council specifies that even when not invoking infallibility, what above applies to bishops in general is even more the case with the Pope.  The faithful's religious submission of mind and will "must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will".  The Pope's mind and will "may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking".

Yes I know all of this. This is all relative to him writing in the position of Bishop of Rome . He wrote his books as Joseph Ratzinger , not PBXVI I.e. Out of capacity.
 that's why he went out of his way to make sure people knew its was just a private theological writing as opposed to something authoritative like a papal bull.

Quote
And yet, the Pope is only the Pope because he is elected by the clergy of Rome (Cardinals) as Bishop of Rome.  You can't claim that his universal authority comes from his Papacy and not his Episcopacy when his Papacy derives precisely from his Episcopacy.

irrelevant as the authority dircetly stems from him being head, not bishop of Rome as this is indirect. Hence had Peter left his cathedra in Antioch, Patriarch Gregory III Laham would be head. He even joked about this once. This shows succession from Peter in his position as head is what matters. Not where you are bishop. It just so happened that the Romans succeeded Peter as head and as a consequence the roman bishops gain the authority of peter... Understand better now?

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It's not that a Pope's writings are automatically binding on the faithful because they're a Pope's writings.  It's that, even if they're not "automatically binding", you still have to accept them with "religious submission of mind and will".  IOW, even if he says it's not infallible, you better treat it as if it is.    
Absolutely, but you continually fail to distinguish between one writing as a bishop as opposed to writing as a theologian only. The catholic church highlights difference. Bishops don't need to be infallible as their teaching must be submitted to by the faithful. However if he writes a book for his own benefit or or whatever reason, it does not form part of the teaching body of the church but secular and extra ecclesia.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 11:52:19 AM by Wandile »
” Where there is no love, pour love in, and you will draw love out.”
- St John of the Cross


Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for us. Amen