Author Topic: Small Canon to the Theotokos  (Read 701 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,025
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Small Canon to the Theotokos
« on: December 03, 2013, 11:22:24 PM »
In Ode 6, the Jordanville translation is understandable, but the Contos-Kezios translation has a strange passage in it. What is this "open ground"? Is this some kind of obsure Old English? I do not have access to the OED at home.

Jordanville (1986) translation:
Quote
We have thee as a wall of refuge and the perfect salvation of our souls and release from our afflictions,
O Maiden, and we ever rejoice in thy light. O Sovereign Lady keep us safe now from passions and conflicts.

Contos-Kezios translation:
Quote
You are for us a wall of shelter, and our souls' all perfected salvation;
Our open ground in affliction, O Maiden, and in your light, we delight
endlessly.  O Lady, at this time, from all passions and perils deliver us.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 11:22:38 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,027
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 11:54:30 PM »
In Ode 6, the Jordanville translation is understandable, but the Contos-Kezios translation has a strange passage in it. What is this "open ground"? Is this some kind of obsure Old English? I do not have access to the OED at home.

Jordanville (1986) translation:
Quote
We have thee as a wall of refuge and the perfect salvation of our souls and release from our afflictions,
O Maiden, and we ever rejoice in thy light. O Sovereign Lady keep us safe now from passions and conflicts.

Contos-Kezios translation:
Quote
You are for us a wall of shelter, and our souls' all perfected salvation;
Our open ground in affliction, O Maiden, and in your light, we delight
endlessly.  O Lady, at this time, from all passions and perils deliver us.
I am going to assume that "open ground" does not mean here what it does with respect to wiring.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,025
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2013, 12:10:46 AM »
In Ode 6, the Jordanville translation is understandable, but the Contos-Kezios translation has a strange passage in it. What is this "open ground"? Is this some kind of obsure Old English? I do not have access to the OED at home.

Jordanville (1986) translation:
Quote
We have thee as a wall of refuge and the perfect salvation of our souls and release from our afflictions,
O Maiden, and we ever rejoice in thy light. O Sovereign Lady keep us safe now from passions and conflicts.

Contos-Kezios translation:
Quote
You are for us a wall of shelter, and our souls' all perfected salvation;
Our open ground in affliction, O Maiden, and in your light, we delight
endlessly.  O Lady, at this time, from all passions and perils deliver us.
I am going to assume that "open ground" does not mean here what it does with respect to wiring.

Nor would "open ground" be a safe place if one is in a war zone.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,025
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
"Open Ground" in Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 12:40:42 AM »
Could "Open Ground" be a reference to a "safe passage" or a "clear passage", i.e. a passage without a lot of thorny bushes?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Automated Kibitz Machine
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,633
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Serious Injury List
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 01:08:36 AM »
Psalm 118:5

"I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place."
According to clock time and calendar time the approval of threads may seem to be long delayed, but in sacred time it is always near at hand, always imminent.
Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,370
  • This dog's body intentionally left blank
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 01:10:45 AM »
Romaios?  Cyrillic?  Anyone but me?  :P

I believe this is the text being translated above:

Quote
Ὡς τεῖχος καταφυγῆς κεκτήµεθα, καὶ
ψυχῶν σὲ παντελῆ σωτηρίαν, καὶ
πλατυσµὸν ἐν ταῖς θλίψεσι, Κόρη, καὶ
τῶ φωτί σου ἀεὶ ἀγαλλόµεθα. Ὧ
∆έσποινα, καὶ νύν ἡµᾶς, τῶν παθῶν
καὶ κινδύνων διάσωσον.

This page defines πλατυσμός in this way:

Quote
πλατυσ-μός , ὁ,
A.widening, enlarging, dilatation, distension, Dsc.5.6; ἐξήνεγκέ με εἰς πλατυσμόν into broad space, into open ground, LXX 2 Ki.22.20, al.; ἐν πλατυσμῷ ib.Si. 47.12.
II. metaph., boasting, bragging, πουλυμαθημοσύνης Timo 20.
2. amplitude, “τῆς ποιήσεως” Eust.1382.21.

While the reference above to 2 Sm 22.20 is rendered as "a broad place" in the RSV, Sir 47.12 reads "fared amply", giving "lived in a broad place" in a footnote. 

My guess, not having my books with me at the moment and having lost enough Greek over the years, is that the Jordanville translation is less literal than the other, but is translating for meaning and not just for a literal, word for word equivalence.  The sense of "a broad place", to me anyway, is one of freedom.   

Also, AFAIK the Jordanville translation is made from Slavonic, and not from Greek, so it would be necessary to see how the Slavs translated the Greek in order to see how we got that particular English text.   
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 01:12:00 AM by Mor Ephrem »
This is a great day for this forum and for the internet. Mor's energies like a burning comet are raining possibilities for enlightenment upon us all.

Everyone wants Mor.

Mor, you're a jackass.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,025
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 01:11:11 AM »
Could it also be a veiled reference to "toll houses"?

Release from afflictions could refer to a merciful and painless death, and then safe passage to Heaven, could it not?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,370
  • This dog's body intentionally left blank
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 01:13:34 AM »
It would also be interesting to consult the Hebrew...
This is a great day for this forum and for the internet. Mor's energies like a burning comet are raining possibilities for enlightenment upon us all.

Everyone wants Mor.

Mor, you're a jackass.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,370
  • This dog's body intentionally left blank
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 01:15:51 AM »
Could it also be a veiled reference to "toll houses"?

I doubt it. 

Quote
Release from afflictions could refer to a merciful and painless death, and then safe passage to Heaven, could it not?

Sure, but that's only one type of affliction.  The Small Paraklesis is more than just a supplication for the dying (AFAIK it's not this at all, except by application). 
This is a great day for this forum and for the internet. Mor's energies like a burning comet are raining possibilities for enlightenment upon us all.

Everyone wants Mor.

Mor, you're a jackass.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,463
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 01:16:29 AM »
Could it also be a veiled reference to "toll houses"?

Release from afflictions could refer to a merciful and painless death, and then safe passage to Heaven, could it not?

No to both counts.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,025
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 01:17:43 AM »
Romaios?  Cyrillic?  Anyone but me?  :P

I believe this is the text being translated above:

Quote
Ὡς τεῖχος καταφυγῆς κεκτήµεθα, καὶ
ψυχῶν σὲ παντελῆ σωτηρίαν, καὶ
πλατυσµὸν ἐν ταῖς θλίψεσι, Κόρη, καὶ
τῶ φωτί σου ἀεὶ ἀγαλλόµεθα. Ὧ
∆έσποινα, καὶ νύν ἡµᾶς, τῶν παθῶν
καὶ κινδύνων διάσωσον.

This page defines πλατυσμός in this way:

Quote
πλατυσ-μός , ὁ,
A.widening, enlarging, dilatation, distension, Dsc.5.6; ἐξήνεγκέ με εἰς πλατυσμόν into broad space, into open ground, LXX 2 Ki.22.20, al.; ἐν πλατυσμῷ ib.Si. 47.12.
II. metaph., boasting, bragging, πουλυμαθημοσύνης Timo 20.
2. amplitude, “τῆς ποιήσεως” Eust.1382.21.

While the reference above to 2 Sm 22.20 is rendered as "a broad place" in the RSV, Sir 47.12 reads "fared amply", giving "lived in a broad place" in a footnote. 

My guess, not having my books with me at the moment and having lost enough Greek over the years, is that the Jordanville translation is less literal than the other, but is translating for meaning and not just for a literal, word for word equivalence.  The sense of "a broad place", to me anyway, is one of freedom.   

Also, AFAIK the Jordanville translation is made from Slavonic, and not from Greek, so it would be necessary to see how the Slavs translated the Greek in order to see how we got that particular English text.   

This makes sense. When one is sick, one is usually confined to a small bed in a small room, and there is the feeling of being imprisoned.

Contos-Kezios translated directly from the Greek, although their translation in many places is almost word for word that found in the Jordanville. It looks like they did compare it with both the Jordanville and HTM.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,025
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2013, 02:22:44 AM »
BTW, when I mentioned Contos-Kezios, I was referring to Father Contos' and Father Spencer Kezios' joint translation.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2013, 03:34:26 AM »
Romaios?  Cyrillic?  Anyone but me?  :P

I believe this is the text being translated above:

Quote
Ὡς τεῖχος καταφυγῆς κεκτήµεθα, καὶ
ψυχῶν σὲ παντελῆ σωτηρίαν, καὶ
πλατυσµὸν ἐν ταῖς θλίψεσι, Κόρη, καὶ
τῶ φωτί σου ἀεὶ ἀγαλλόµεθα. Ὧ
∆έσποινα, καὶ νύν ἡµᾶς, τῶν παθῶν
καὶ κινδύνων διάσωσον.

This page defines πλατυσμός in this way:

Quote
πλατυσ-μός , ὁ,
A.widening, enlarging, dilatation, distension, Dsc.5.6; ἐξήνεγκέ με εἰς πλατυσμόν into broad space, into open ground, LXX 2 Ki.22.20, al.; ἐν πλατυσμῷ ib.Si. 47.12.
II. metaph., boasting, bragging, πουλυμαθημοσύνης Timo 20.
2. amplitude, “τῆς ποιήσεως” Eust.1382.21.

While the reference above to 2 Sm 22.20 is rendered as "a broad place" in the RSV, Sir 47.12 reads "fared amply", giving "lived in a broad place" in a footnote. 

My guess, not having my books with me at the moment and having lost enough Greek over the years, is that the Jordanville translation is less literal than the other, but is translating for meaning and not just for a literal, word for word equivalence.  The sense of "a broad place", to me anyway, is one of freedom.   

Also, AFAIK the Jordanville translation is made from Slavonic, and not from Greek, so it would be necessary to see how the Slavs translated the Greek in order to see how we got that particular English text.   

You all do get the gist of it.

Thlipsis ("affliction") literally means being "in dire straits" in Greek. The remedy would consist in an opening/being on open ground (platysmos). Plateia (hodos) is where piazza/plaza ("square") comes from in European languages. 

This is Psalm 118:5 in Hebrew:

מִן-הַמֵּצַר, קָרָאתִי יָּהּ;    עָנָנִי בַמֶּרְחָב יָהּ.

"Out of my straits I called upon the LORD; He answered me with great enlargement (merechav)."

The Hebrew equivalent for platysmos or plateia (hodos) would be rechava/rechov. Btw it's interesting that Rahab literally translates as "broad"...

After realizing that I was mistaken in my assumption that kvish כביש - "road" -was an ancient Hebrew word, I decided to write a post about rechov רחוב - "street". Surely that was a biblical word . I knew Haman paraded Mordechai בִּרְחוֹב הָעִיר - b'rchov ha'ir (Ester 6:11) and Zecharia prophesied that old men and women would sit b'rechovot yerushalayim בִּרְחֹבוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם (Zecharia 8:4).

But as you regular readers of this blog are not surprised to find out, I was mistaken again. While in Modern Hebrew rechov means street, in Biblical and Talmudic Hebrew it meant "a broad open place (in a city), square" (Klein). Only in Medieval Hebrew did it take on the meaning of "street". Today rechava רחבה continues the older meaning of rechov.

While I'm not sure why the term changed its meaning, I can perhaps guess that the teaming of drachim דרכים - "roads" with rechovot רחובות in the Mishna (Shekalim 1:1, Moed Katan 1:2), might have had some influence.

Rechov of course derives from רחב rachav - meaning - "wide". Ben Yehuda writes that this root is the source of a number of proper names of people and places: Rechavam רחבעם, Rechovot רחובות and Rechavia רחביה.

He goes on to say that in Aramaic, the root רוח (revach) was preferred, which has a similar sound and meaning to רחב - and perhaps are related etymologically as well.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 03:55:38 AM by Romaios »

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2013, 09:11:42 AM »
In Ode 6, the Jordanville translation is understandable, but the Contos-Kezios translation has a strange passage in it. What is this "open ground"? Is this some kind of obsure Old English? I do not have access to the OED at home.

Jordanville (1986) translation:
Quote
We have thee as a wall of refuge and the perfect salvation of our souls and release from our afflictions,
O Maiden, and we ever rejoice in thy light. O Sovereign Lady keep us safe now from passions and conflicts.

Contos-Kezios translation:
Quote
You are for us a wall of shelter, and our souls' all perfected salvation;
Our open ground in affliction, O Maiden, and in your light, we delight
endlessly.  O Lady, at this time, from all passions and perils deliver us.

Remember that we are dealing with translating a metered poem set to a certain melody.

Open Ground is actually referring to the battle field definition here. Open ground is an area free of obstructions that is flat, and easy to move about on. Until modern warfare, battles took place on open ground (the Roman tactics were best suited for open ground warfare). In the Roman mind open ground was the best place possible to fight.
Joseph

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,025
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Small Canon to the Theotokos
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2013, 03:57:26 PM »
In Ode 6, the Jordanville translation is understandable, but the Contos-Kezios translation has a strange passage in it. What is this "open ground"? Is this some kind of obsure Old English? I do not have access to the OED at home.

Jordanville (1986) translation:
Quote
We have thee as a wall of refuge and the perfect salvation of our souls and release from our afflictions,
O Maiden, and we ever rejoice in thy light. O Sovereign Lady keep us safe now from passions and conflicts.

Contos-Kezios translation:
Quote
You are for us a wall of shelter, and our souls' all perfected salvation;
Our open ground in affliction, O Maiden, and in your light, we delight
endlessly.  O Lady, at this time, from all passions and perils deliver us.

Remember that we are dealing with translating a metered poem set to a certain melody.

Open Ground is actually referring to the battle field definition here. Open ground is an area free of obstructions that is flat, and easy to move about on. Until modern warfare, battles took place on open ground (the Roman tactics were best suited for open ground warfare). In the Roman mind open ground was the best place possible to fight.

Thank you.

I think you answered my question.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.