Author Topic: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?  (Read 2861 times)

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Offline Studying_Orthodoxy

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How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« on: November 21, 2013, 05:40:05 PM »
How did the converted Slavs influence the Byzantine liturgy? What influences did they put on to it? How did their dress, clothes and art forms influence things?


Offline mike

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2013, 05:41:40 PM »
- development of iconostasis
- Russian phelonions
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Offline Studying_Orthodoxy

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2013, 05:46:15 PM »
I see. Do you think that if the Latins had remained in communion with Constantinople that everything in a fully Orthodox Europe would still look Catholic. In other words, would there still be Western Rite or would it resemble more the Byzantine style? Maybe the reason that most of the Orthodox world looks the way it does is due to the Byzantine influences.

Why do the Western rite not have a beard?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 05:46:50 PM by Studying_Orthodoxy »

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2013, 05:55:49 PM »
I see. Do you think that if the Latins had remained in communion with Constantinople that everything in a fully Orthodox Europe would still look Catholic. In other words, would there still be Western Rite or would it resemble more the Byzantine style? Maybe the reason that most of the Orthodox world looks the way it does is due to the Byzantine influences.

What do you mean, "would still look Catholic"?  If you mean "would still look like the Roman rite", not necessarily, because there were other Western rites in use.  But they would certainly look more Roman than Byzantine. 
Quote
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2013, 06:18:32 PM »
I see. Do you think that if the Latins had remained in communion with Constantinople that everything in a fully Orthodox Europe would still look Catholic. In other words, would there still be Western Rite or would it resemble more the Byzantine style? Maybe the reason that most of the Orthodox world looks the way it does is due to the Byzantine influences.

Why do the Western rite not have a beard?

The Roman view of bearded people was that they were barbaric. The 'high' and 'civilized' folk shouldn't look barbaric with a beard on their faces. So, they shaved because they were 'civilized'.

It's not so much a 'Roman Catholic' thing, it's just a Western-Roman cultural tradition.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2013, 06:29:43 PM »
The Roman view of bearded people was that they were barbaric. The 'high' and 'civilized' folk shouldn't look barbaric with a beard on their faces. So, they shaved because they were 'civilized'.

It's not so much a 'Roman Catholic' thing, it's just a Western-Roman cultural tradition.

An unkempt beard was barbaric.

But the Eastern (Greek philosopher) fashion of growing a beard was soon emulated even by Roman emperors. Marcus Aurelius had one. Julian the Apostate even bragged about having an unkempt one.

It was the Franks who (re)introduced shaving for the Western clergy. 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 06:30:38 PM by Romaios »

Offline Studying_Orthodoxy

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2013, 06:57:37 PM »
What do you mean, "would still look Catholic"?  If you mean "would still look like the Roman rite", not necessarily, because there were other Western rites in use.  But they would certainly look more Roman than Byzantine.

I see. To me it seems that the Roman Catholic faith was formed mostly by the Italian and Latin mindset (which is stating the obvious). What other possible traditions existed? I know that there was the Celtic Church.

The Roman view of bearded people was that they were barbaric. The 'high' and 'civilized' folk shouldn't look barbaric with a beard on their faces. So, they shaved because they were 'civilized'.

It's not so much a 'Roman Catholic' thing, it's just a Western-Roman cultural tradition.

Maybe it is more the tradition of Romans as opposed to other Westerners. Romans would not have had beards even before they accepted Christianity. Yet among the Germanic barbarians I am sure it was common.

An unkempt beard was barbaric.

But the Eastern (Greek philosopher) fashion of growing a beard was soon emulated even by Roman emperors. Marcus Aurelius had one. Julian the Apostate even bragged about having an unkempt one.

It was the Franks who (re)introduced shaving for the Western clergy. 

Is the Byzantine Orthodox tradition of clergy having a beard therefore possibly influenced by the Greek philosopher's beard?

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2013, 07:00:10 PM »
Why are we talking beards in "Liturgy" section? Seriously.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 07:00:30 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2013, 07:12:37 PM »
Is the Byzantine Orthodox tradition of clergy having a beard therefore possibly influenced by the Greek philosopher's beard?

I'd rather see the beard as a mark of continuity with Judaism. Leviticus 19:27, Nazirites and all that:

"Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

"During the entire period of their Nazirite vow, no razor may be used on their head. They must be holy until the period of their dedication to the Lord is over; they must let their hair grow long." (Numbers 6:5)

Offline Romaios

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 07:20:40 PM »
To me it seems that the Roman Catholic faith was formed mostly by the Italian and Latin mindset (which is stating the obvious).

You should read up on that from Fr. Romanides;)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 07:45:18 PM »
What do you mean, "would still look Catholic"?  If you mean "would still look like the Roman rite", not necessarily, because there were other Western rites in use.  But they would certainly look more Roman than Byzantine.

I see. To me it seems that the Roman Catholic faith was formed mostly by the Italian and Latin mindset (which is stating the obvious). What other possible traditions existed? I know that there was the Celtic Church.

The Roman view of bearded people was that they were barbaric. The 'high' and 'civilized' folk shouldn't look barbaric with a beard on their faces. So, they shaved because they were 'civilized'.

It's not so much a 'Roman Catholic' thing, it's just a Western-Roman cultural tradition.

Maybe it is more the tradition of Romans as opposed to other Westerners. Romans would not have had beards even before they accepted Christianity. Yet among the Germanic barbarians I am sure it was common.

An unkempt beard was barbaric.

But the Eastern (Greek philosopher) fashion of growing a beard was soon emulated even by Roman emperors. Marcus Aurelius had one. Julian the Apostate even bragged about having an unkempt one.

It was the Franks who (re)introduced shaving for the Western clergy. 

Is the Byzantine Orthodox tradition of clergy having a beard therefore possibly influenced by the Greek philosopher's beard?

No, Orientals have beards too, as do Jews and Muslims. It's a Jewish tradition.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 07:47:04 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2013, 09:36:07 PM »
What do you mean, "would still look Catholic"?  If you mean "would still look like the Roman rite", not necessarily, because there were other Western rites in use.  But they would certainly look more Roman than Byzantine.

I see. To me it seems that the Roman Catholic faith was formed mostly by the Italian and Latin mindset (which is stating the obvious). What other possible traditions existed? I know that there was the Celtic Church.

The Roman rite gradually came to be the dominant rite in the West, but there were others--different enough to be separate, but all basically related.  Some of these were based on geographic regions (e.g., Milan, Toledo, Braga, Paris, Sarum) while others were the rites proper to religious orders (e.g., Cistercians, Carthusians, Dominicans, Carmelites).  To what extent did the ecclesial culture differ based on what rite was used in a given place I do not know.  My hunch is that, generally, Western ecclesial culture was the same (Latin) even if the rites differed.  But I could be wrong.   
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Regnare

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2013, 11:09:05 PM »
The Roman rite gradually came to be the dominant rite in the West, but there were others--different enough to be separate, but all basically related.  Some of these were based on geographic regions (e.g., Milan, Toledo, Braga, Paris, Sarum) while others were the rites proper to religious orders (e.g., Cistercians, Carthusians, Dominicans, Carmelites).  To what extent did the ecclesial culture differ based on what rite was used in a given place I do not know.  My hunch is that, generally, Western ecclesial culture was the same (Latin) even if the rites differed.  But I could be wrong.    
Different, yes, but are they really different enough to be separate? The current Roman tendency is to refer to them all as Uses of the Roman Rite, I believe. Besides, as far as I know they all have the same basic structure, sharing most of the same prayers, even, including the Canon. The vestments are also basically the same. I've heard some interesting things about the reconstructed Gallican Mass which make it seem in between Rome and Byzantium, but I'm inclined to think of those as Uses rather than Rites.
I might compare them to the differences between the practice of the Syriac Rite in Syria vs. India, but I know absolutely nothing about that so I won't make that comparison.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 11:09:31 PM by Regnare »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2013, 11:28:12 PM »
Good question, I'm not sure about a definitive answer.  I know that I regularly see "York Use" or "Sarum Use", but "Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Bragan, Dominican, Carthusian Rites", so there must be a distinction. 

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Regnare

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2013, 11:39:21 PM »
You have a point. I've never seen the Dominican Use referred to, either, but I don't see why it wouldn't be if Sarum is only a use. They're about the same liturgical distance from Rome.
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust." --Psalm 91: 1-2

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2013, 12:46:33 AM »
You have a point. I've never seen the Dominican Use referred to, either, but I don't see why it wouldn't be if Sarum is only a use. They're about the same liturgical distance from Rome.

The Dominican rite has ritual differences in the Mass (e.g., the preparation of the gifts) when compared to the Roman.  I don't know if Sarum has comparable ritual variations or if it's just a matter of having different texts, or the same elements in a different order.  Maybe that makes a difference?  Just a shot in the dark. 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2013, 01:37:51 AM »
Why are we talking beards in "Liturgy" section? Seriously.

Hey, this is OC.net. Of course we're talking about beards. After a day or so we'll be talking about bearded gays. After two days we'll be talking about ecumenist bearded gays. After three days Christ will return to stop this madness.
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Leviticus 19:34

Offline arimethea

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2013, 10:32:23 AM »
- Russian phelonions

The "Russian" phelonions are not Rus in origin. It was a style that developed in Constantinople and was adopted by the Slavic lands.

Now, the multi-tier inconostasis, that is a Russian thing.
Joseph

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2013, 01:51:11 AM »
Why are we talking beards in "Liturgy" section? Seriously.

Hey, this is OC.net. Of course we're talking about beards. After a day or so we'll be talking about bearded gays. After two days we'll be talking about ecumenist bearded gays. After three days Christ will return to stop this madness.

I wish!
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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 08:53:43 AM »
- Russian phelonions

The "Russian" phelonions are not Rus in origin. It was a style that developed in Constantinople and was adopted by the Slavic lands.

Now, the multi-tier inconostasis, that is a Russian thing.

After two tiers, it can get really gaudy, in my eye.
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Offline LBK

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2013, 09:08:38 AM »
- Russian phelonions

The "Russian" phelonions are not Rus in origin. It was a style that developed in Constantinople and was adopted by the Slavic lands.

Now, the multi-tier inconostasis, that is a Russian thing.

After two tiers, it can get really gaudy, in my eye.

It depends on the amount and style of ornamentation of the iconostasis itself, surrounding the icons. Overblown baroque extravaganzas versus simpler bas-relief wooden carvings - the latter can still be ornate, but it should complement the icons, not compete with them.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2013, 09:11:36 AM »
- Russian phelonions

The "Russian" phelonions are not Rus in origin. It was a style that developed in Constantinople and was adopted by the Slavic lands.

Now, the multi-tier inconostasis, that is a Russian thing.

After two tiers, it can get really gaudy, in my eye.

It depends on the amount and style of ornamentation of the iconostasis itself, surrounding the icons. Overblown baroque extravaganzas versus simpler bas-relief wooden carvings - the latter can still be ornate, but it should complement the icons, not compete with them.

Yes, in my mind I am thinking of the ginormous, gold-painted everything where I can't even tell what icon is what.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: How Did Converted Peoples Influence The Liturgy?
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2013, 10:32:34 AM »
I have heard that the native Alaskan Orthodox (Aleut, Alutiiq, Tlingit, Yup'ik, etc.) are allowed to use non-alcoholic wine in their liturgies because of generitic predisposition toward alcoholism. Is this at all true?