Author Topic: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?  (Read 34552 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #90 on: November 20, 2013, 08:32:37 PM »
Some of the demands here are interesting. What I find most disturbing are that some of these demands impose on the traditions of the Roman church. (Byzantinization)

imagine upon reunion, Rome demanded all eastern churches to keep a celebate clergy, to use a new liturgy, to abandon all post schism saints and apparitions etc... Sometimes its better to avoid conflict if such practices are not contradictory to your own doctrine. We have different traditions and they must be respected :)
says who?

we don't have apparitions to abandon. That's why you would have to abandon yours.

hmmm even Photius agrees to the idea that sometimes things are just some differently in the east and west and both traditions should be respected
key word and emphasis: sometimes, and only when they do not contradict dogma.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #91 on: November 20, 2013, 08:45:08 PM »
Do any of you, who've been Orthodox for awhile, really believe that the Catholics would ever concede?

No.  The Roman Catholic Church will not compromise what Orthodox Christianity views as innovations. Not in the foreseeable future; something drastic on the world scene would have to change for the Roman Catholic Church to considered changes to accommodate Eastern Orthodox concerns.

What the Roman Catholic Church seeks is to bring Eastern Orthodoxy into its embrace under its current structure, akin to the manner in which their Byzantine Rites exist within the Roman Catholic Church.

Never-the-less, I don't think this should diminish the importance of Eastern Orthodoxy maintaining dialogue, the "Dialogue of Love," with the Roman Catholic Church, neither should it preclude non-ecclesial, joint initiatives, to promote traditional Trinitarian Christian witness to the world, which suffers from secularism and the scourge of the Moslems.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #92 on: November 20, 2013, 08:52:08 PM »
Some of the demands here are interesting. What I find most disturbing are that some of these demands impose on the traditions of the Roman church. (Byzantinization)

imagine upon reunion, Rome demanded all eastern churches to keep a celebate clergy, to use a new liturgy, to abandon all post schism saints and apparitions etc... Sometimes its better to avoid conflict if such practices are not contradictory to your own doctrine. We have different traditions and they must be respected :)
says who?

we don't have apparitions to abandon. That's why you would have to abandon yours.

hmmm even Photius agrees to the idea that sometimes things are just some differently in the east and west and both traditions should be respected

Unfortunately, the Vatican has a long history of doing just the opposite.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2013, 09:15:10 PM »
How would that happen without compromises being made such as the New Calendar imposition?

Catholics do not even have unified calendar among themselves.

Quite true. The Ruthenian Green Catholics in Slovakia are MOSTLY all on the full western calendar, including the Paschalion, while their counterparts in Transcarpathia (Muchachevo) are entirely on the full-blown Julian calendar including the Paschalion. Both eparchies are the ones which submitted to Rome under the Union of Uzhorod.  Go figure.

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2013, 09:21:11 PM »
Mukachevo, Ukraine you mean? In the zakapatia oblast. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 09:23:33 PM by username! »

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2013, 09:25:04 PM »
Even in Pennsylvania all the Ukrainian Greek Catholics aren't in the same calender. Some are gregorian some are julian
P

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2013, 10:07:38 PM »
Kniaziev, Lossky maybe even Evdokimov, also Bulgakov had no problem with the Lourdes apparitions .

Do you have a source for this claim?

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2013, 10:08:40 PM »
Leaving all other issues aside for a moment, since for me lex orandi, lex credendi, I could conceive of being in communion with this...

I love you. 

Offline theistgal

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2013, 10:14:55 PM »
Why would that need to be specified? That's the entire problem with RCC apparitions in the first place. It's not like when some devout Catholic somewhere swears up and down that they see the image of the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich, any of us (RC or EO or OO) have to rush out and condemn it, because that's an obvious case of crazy. The problem is with the apparitions that your communion has accepted, and the aberrations that flow from them. If it were a matter of apparitions that don't declare this or that or pass secret messages on to Portuguese school girls or whatever, we most likely would not be having this conversation. If you want to believe that the Theotokos chills out with you and watches over you as you knit and watch TV or something, that's up to you, but the second some apparition opens its ghost-mouth and says "I am the immaculate conception!", we have the right and the duty to say "Nope. No way. Not acceptable. Everyone who believes in Orthodoxy should run away from this thing, right away."

I disagree with about 85% of what you said there; will let you guess which 15% I agreed with.
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2013, 10:15:04 PM »
That's an sspx church they aren't in communion with anyone

Offline dzheremi

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #100 on: November 20, 2013, 10:26:55 PM »
Why would that need to be specified? That's the entire problem with RCC apparitions in the first place. It's not like when some devout Catholic somewhere swears up and down that they see the image of the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich, any of us (RC or EO or OO) have to rush out and condemn it, because that's an obvious case of crazy. The problem is with the apparitions that your communion has accepted, and the aberrations that flow from them. If it were a matter of apparitions that don't declare this or that or pass secret messages on to Portuguese school girls or whatever, we most likely would not be having this conversation. If you want to believe that the Theotokos chills out with you and watches over you as you knit and watch TV or something, that's up to you, but the second some apparition opens its ghost-mouth and says "I am the immaculate conception!", we have the right and the duty to say "Nope. No way. Not acceptable. Everyone who believes in Orthodoxy should run away from this thing, right away."

I disagree with about 85% of what you said there; will let you guess which 15% I agreed with.

And you may guess which 100% of your disagreement I will not be hung up on.

Offline theistgal

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2013, 10:28:45 PM »
Why would that need to be specified? That's the entire problem with RCC apparitions in the first place. It's not like when some devout Catholic somewhere swears up and down that they see the image of the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich, any of us (RC or EO or OO) have to rush out and condemn it, because that's an obvious case of crazy. The problem is with the apparitions that your communion has accepted, and the aberrations that flow from them. If it were a matter of apparitions that don't declare this or that or pass secret messages on to Portuguese school girls or whatever, we most likely would not be having this conversation. If you want to believe that the Theotokos chills out with you and watches over you as you knit and watch TV or something, that's up to you, but the second some apparition opens its ghost-mouth and says "I am the immaculate conception!", we have the right and the duty to say "Nope. No way. Not acceptable. Everyone who believes in Orthodoxy should run away from this thing, right away."

I disagree with about 85% of what you said there; will let you guess which 15% I agreed with.

And you may guess which 100% of your disagreement I will not be hung up on.

Let's see, your 100% of my 85% disagreement = one grilled cheese sandwich with a ghost-mouth.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2013, 10:37:32 PM »
Y'see, with a ghost mouth it's not technically breaking the fast...

Offline ialmisry

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2013, 10:37:38 PM »
Kniaziev, Lossky maybe even Evdokimov, also Bulgakov had no problem with the Lourdes apparitions . That is to say they look more trustworthy than a Copt in NM.
The Copt is right, and Bulgakov is wrong.  Not the only time, btw.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2013, 10:43:58 PM »
Y'see, with a ghost mouth it's not technically breaking the fast...

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2013, 10:44:39 PM »
Mukachevo, Ukraine you mean? In the zakapatia oblast. 

One and the same.

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #106 on: November 20, 2013, 10:56:44 PM »
Mukachevo, Ukraine you mean? In the zakapatia oblast.  

One and the same.
Itd be nice.to visit.Mukacheve, Uzhorod, etc.. spend two weeks over there, visit family etc..go all over up.to lviv etc...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 10:57:13 PM by username! »

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #107 on: November 21, 2013, 04:20:05 AM »
Some of the demands here are interesting. What I find most disturbing are that some of these demands impose on the traditions of the Roman church. (Byzantinization)

imagine upon reunion, Rome demanded all eastern churches to keep a celebate clergy, to use a new liturgy, to abandon all post schism saints and apparitions etc... Sometimes its better to avoid conflict if such practices are not contradictory to your own doctrine. We have different traditions and they must be respected :)
says who?

we don't have apparitions to abandon. That's why you would have to abandon yours.

hmmm even Photius agrees to the idea that sometimes things are just some differently in the east and west and both traditions should be respected
key word and emphasis: sometimes, and only when they do not contradict dogma.
exactly
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #108 on: November 21, 2013, 09:49:20 AM »
Rome would have to reestablish itself as a church and a patrirchate.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #109 on: November 21, 2013, 10:54:30 AM »
Rome would have to concede its claim to papal supremacy, what Isa calls ultramontism. The idea that the Pope is to the Patriarchs like an emperor to all others cannot stay, because this belief prevents the EOs from having their own beliefs and practices when the Pope disagrees with them. The Pope can simply order them to do whatever he will want, and if they are one Church it becomes an unworkable contradiction. An idea that "oh, he would never do that against their will" is not practical or secure, because sometimes the Pope believes X and EOs think Y. But if the Pope is the ultimate hierarch it becomes a situation where you must accept his beliefs because he is your hierarch.
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #110 on: November 21, 2013, 11:20:24 AM »
Rome would have to concede its claim to papal supremacy, what Isa calls ultramontism. The idea that the Pope is to the Patriarchs like an emperor to all others cannot stay, because this belief prevents the EOs from having their own beliefs and practices when the Pope disagrees with them. The Pope can simply order them to do whatever he will want, and if they are one Church it becomes an unworkable contradiction. An idea that "oh, he would never do that against their will" is not practical or secure, because sometimes the Pope believes X and EOs think Y. But if the Pope is the ultimate hierarch it becomes a situation where you must accept his beliefs because he is your hierarch.

Suffice it to say, we don't see any chance of unity at least in this lifetime.  But, it is good that we do have dialogues from time to time for discussing the deplorable state of morals in the world.  I for one, would not tolerate any compromising of our Faith just for the sake of obtaining a unity.  Its just not worth it. 

Offline paedenfield

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #111 on: November 21, 2013, 11:50:27 AM »
Do any of you, who've been Orthodox for awhile, really believe that the Catholics would ever concede?
What the Roman Catholic Church seeks is to bring Eastern Orthodoxy into its embrace under its current structure, akin to the manner in which their Byzantine Rites exist within the Roman Catholic Church.

Never-the-less, I don't think this should diminish the importance of Eastern Orthodoxy maintaining dialogue, the "Dialogue of Love," with the Roman Catholic Church...

I think Basil 320's post is spot-on.  Dialogue is certainly desirable (as opposed to the consequences of lack of dialogue), but actual RC-Orthodox unity seems to me a case of "Be careful what you ask for ..." 
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #112 on: November 21, 2013, 11:54:26 AM »
Married Greek Catholic men cannot get ordained in Poland.

Explain the situation first. I haven't heard of this...

What to explain? It's selfexplantory.
"Yet even after the proclamation of Orientale Lumen, the situation regarding married clergy came to another critical head in early 1998 when on the request of the Polish Latin Church hierarchy, the Vatican Secretary of State, Angelo Cardinal Sodano ordered all married Ukrainian Catholic priests out of their parishes in Poland back to Ukraine, due once more to the Latin Church claiming their presence as being scandalous. What had occurred was that with the collapse of Communism in the East, the Ukrainian seminaries had now been re-opened, their thresholds being crossed by hundreds of young married men. Then in 1998 — these ordained young men were now flooding from their seminaries to once abandoned parishes, along with their wives and children. This was all too much for a fiercely Latin Church nation, such as Poland. The tone of Cardinal Sodano's order and its clause that only celibate priests be allowed within Poland's national boundaries was gravely in breach of the spirit of unity in diversity, and the Papal exhortation of 1995.

The use of the Latin term 'uxorati' in Cardinal Sodano's letter referring to married clergy was also another key area of contention. This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming.
http://www.catholica.com.au/andrewstake/041c_print.php "

So from the looks of it, Greek Catholics can become priests in Poland. It was an unfortunate error on the part of Cardinal Sodano who himself is notorious for other scandalous things. I'm not a fan of him.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #113 on: November 21, 2013, 12:12:58 PM »
Where was this:

So from the looks of it, Greek Catholics can become priests in Poland. It was an unfortunate error on the part of Cardinal Sodano who himself is notorious for other scandalous things. I'm not a fan of him.

Anywhere in this:

Quote
"Yet even after the proclamation of Orientale Lumen, the situation regarding married clergy came to another critical head in early 1998 when on the request of the Polish Latin Church hierarchy, the Vatican Secretary of State, Angelo Cardinal Sodano ordered all married Ukrainian Catholic priests out of their parishes in Poland back to Ukraine, due once more to the Latin Church claiming their presence as being scandalous. What had occurred was that with the collapse of Communism in the East, the Ukrainian seminaries had now been re-opened, their thresholds being crossed by hundreds of young married men. Then in 1998 — these ordained young men were now flooding from their seminaries to once abandoned parishes, along with their wives and children. This was all too much for a fiercely Latin Church nation, such as Poland. The tone of Cardinal Sodano's order and its clause that only celibate priests be allowed within Poland's national boundaries was gravely in breach of the spirit of unity in diversity, and the Papal exhortation of 1995.

The use of the Latin term 'uxorati' in Cardinal Sodano's letter referring to married clergy was also another key area of contention. This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming.
http://www.catholica.com.au/andrewstake/041c_print.php "

?

I've read it thrice and am not seeing it. 

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #114 on: November 21, 2013, 12:17:50 PM »
So from the looks of it, Greek Catholics can become priests in Poland. It was an unfortunate error on the part of Cardinal Sodano who himself is notorious for other scandalous things. I'm not a fan of him.

They can't. They are being ordained outside Poland.
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #115 on: November 21, 2013, 12:24:08 PM »
Where was this:

So from the looks of it, Greek Catholics can become priests in Poland. It was an unfortunate error on the part of Cardinal Sodano who himself is notorious for other scandalous things. I'm not a fan of him.

Anywhere in this:

Quote
"Yet even after the proclamation of Orientale Lumen, the situation regarding married clergy came to another critical head in early 1998 when on the request of the Polish Latin Church hierarchy, the Vatican Secretary of State, Angelo Cardinal Sodano ordered all married Ukrainian Catholic priests out of their parishes in Poland back to Ukraine, due once more to the Latin Church claiming their presence as being scandalous. What had occurred was that with the collapse of Communism in the East, the Ukrainian seminaries had now been re-opened, their thresholds being crossed by hundreds of young married men. Then in 1998 — these ordained young men were now flooding from their seminaries to once abandoned parishes, along with their wives and children. This was all too much for a fiercely Latin Church nation, such as Poland. The tone of Cardinal Sodano's order and its clause that only celibate priests be allowed within Poland's national boundaries was gravely in breach of the spirit of unity in diversity, and the Papal exhortation of 1995.

The use of the Latin term 'uxorati' in Cardinal Sodano's letter referring to married clergy was also another key area of contention. This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming.
http://www.catholica.com.au/andrewstake/041c_print.php "

?

I've read it thrice and am not seeing it. 


it says "This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming."

The decision to ban married Greek Clergy was revoked.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #116 on: November 21, 2013, 12:31:38 PM »
it says "This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming."

The decision to ban married Greek Clergy was revoked.

But what was revoked?  The clergy affected by Card. Sodano's decree were already ordained priests.  If the decision to remove them from their parishes was revoked, all that means is that they were allowed to come back.  It doesn't necessarily address permitting the ordination of married men.  And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed, they are not allowed to ordain married men, but have to send them elsewhere to get ordained and then come back.  Such things have happened in America as well.  It's sad, because it makes both ordination and marriage look like something dirty that has to be hidden from polite company.   

Offline ialmisry

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #117 on: November 21, 2013, 12:41:26 PM »
it says "This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming."

The decision to ban married Greek Clergy was revoked.

But what was revoked?  The clergy affected by Card. Sodano's decree were already ordained priests.  If the decision to remove them from their parishes was revoked, all that means is that they were allowed to come back.  It doesn't necessarily address permitting the ordination of married men.  And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed, they are not allowed to ordain married men, but have to send them elsewhere to get ordained and then come back.  Such things have happened in America as well.  It's sad, because it makes both ordination and marriage look like something dirty that has to be hidden from polite company.   
Ditto the letter of the head of their Episcopal Conference of Italy telling their Romanian Major Archbishop not to send married priests to Italy (of course, mandating celibacy in Romania is A-OK).

This was brought up at a Synod of their Middle Eastern bishops at the Vatican.  AFAIK, only silence has ensued.
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #118 on: November 21, 2013, 12:45:07 PM »
it says "This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming."

The decision to ban married Greek Clergy was revoked.

But what was revoked?  The clergy affected by Card. Sodano's decree were already ordained priests.  If the decision to remove them from their parishes was revoked, all that means is that they were allowed to come back.  It doesn't necessarily address permitting the ordination of married men.  And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed, they are not allowed to ordain married men, but have to send them elsewhere to get ordained and then come back.  Such things have happened in America as well.  It's sad, because it makes both ordination and marriage look like something dirty that has to be hidden from polite company.   

You have a point. Its not dealing with the ordination of married men to the priesthood.
I have heard the reasoning is that in largely Latin lands, it would cause friction which is historically accurate. However in not clued up enough on this topic to speak about. Ask Deacon Lance... maybe he knows :-\
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #119 on: November 21, 2013, 12:57:50 PM »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline theistgal

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #120 on: November 21, 2013, 12:59:42 PM »
FWIW we have had two married men be ordained in the Eparchy of Phoenix by Bishop Gerald, just within the past few months. And they weren't previously married converts.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #121 on: November 21, 2013, 01:17:51 PM »
FWIW we have had two married men be ordained in the Eparchy of Phoenix by Bishop Gerald, just within the past few months. And they weren't previously married converts.

I've been told that it is not these externals that we are all exampling but the Theological differences that mainly keep us apart.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #122 on: November 21, 2013, 02:33:08 PM »
Married Greek Catholic men cannot get ordained in Poland.

Explain the situation first. I haven't heard of this...

What to explain? It's selfexplantory.
"Yet even after the proclamation of Orientale Lumen, the situation regarding married clergy came to another critical head in early 1998 when on the request of the Polish Latin Church hierarchy, the Vatican Secretary of State, Angelo Cardinal Sodano ordered all married Ukrainian Catholic priests out of their parishes in Poland back to Ukraine, due once more to the Latin Church claiming their presence as being scandalous. What had occurred was that with the collapse of Communism in the East, the Ukrainian seminaries had now been re-opened, their thresholds being crossed by hundreds of young married men. Then in 1998 — these ordained young men were now flooding from their seminaries to once abandoned parishes, along with their wives and children. This was all too much for a fiercely Latin Church nation, such as Poland. The tone of Cardinal Sodano's order and its clause that only celibate priests be allowed within Poland's national boundaries was gravely in breach of the spirit of unity in diversity, and the Papal exhortation of 1995.

The use of the Latin term 'uxorati' in Cardinal Sodano's letter referring to married clergy was also another key area of contention. This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming.
http://www.catholica.com.au/andrewstake/041c_print.php "

So from the looks of it, Greek Catholics can become priests in Poland. It was an unfortunate error on the part of Cardinal Sodano who himself is notorious for other scandalous things. I'm not a fan of him.

It also has to do with the disgraceful conduct of Poles and the Catholic Church in expelling most of the Greek Catholics following the war - prior to the communist takeover.

And Card. Sodano was of the same ignorant mindset as was Cardinal Sandri with his remarks of last spring to the EC bishops in Rome for the ad litima visit.

The fact remains that Rome is oblivious to the ecclesiology behind the married priesthood of the Christian East. Rome's attitude on this subject is to the Orthodox,serves as a warning to her true behavior,  like the canary in the mine, and disheartened many in both the eastern Catholic and Orthodox communities.

"The recommendations of a 21st century Cardinal that the injustice leveled against Eastern Catholics in the 19th and 20th centuries forbidding married priests to serve (and thus be ordained) in North America be maintained brought to the forefront an awareness of how this issue had been divisive in the past. Even more, it was indicative of how it still impacted Eastern Catholic candidates for Holy Orders and their churches in North America in the present, and how it would serve as a major obstacle in healing of the chasm between Christian East and West before the 1,000th anniversary (in 42 years) of the Great Schism of 1054." http://acrod.org/news/releases/rome-conference

A Latin church Cardinal in Rome should have NO say regarding the exercise of the historical prerogatives of the so called "sui juris" self ruling Eastern Churches in communion with Rome.  That is why Rome herself acknowledged at Balamond that the Unia was not a proper model for a future reunited Church.


Offline ialmisry

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #123 on: November 21, 2013, 02:47:53 PM »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #124 on: November 21, 2013, 03:46:40 PM »
it says "This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming."

The decision to ban married Greek Clergy was revoked.

But what was revoked?  The clergy affected by Card. Sodano's decree were already ordained priests.  If the decision to remove them from their parishes was revoked, all that means is that they were allowed to come back.  It doesn't necessarily address permitting the ordination of married men.  And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed, they are not allowed to ordain married men, but have to send them elsewhere to get ordained and then come back.  Such things have happened in America as well.  It's sad, because it makes both ordination and marriage look like something dirty that has to be hidden from polite company.   
Ditto the letter of the head of their Episcopal Conference of Italy telling their Romanian Major Archbishop not to send married priests to Italy (of course, mandating celibacy in Romania is A-OK).

This was brought up at a Synod of their Middle Eastern bishops at the Vatican.  AFAIK, only silence has ensued.

The North American and Australian Ukrainian Greek Catholic faculty from the Orientale in Rome sponsored a forum on this latest insult from the head of the Oriental Congregation last year. They invited an Orthodox priest, several international EC scholars and an outspoken Jesuit of  Greek heritage from Florence to present. They were not permitted to meet at the Orientale, they met at the hostel run by the RCC of Australia. Apparently students from Ukraine and Poland were "urged" not to attend. This was also the topic at the Lumen Gentile conference in DC this spring where it was clear to the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox attendees that the Romans simply do not understand, or more likely arrogantly dismiss, the Eastern point of view. I linked the Rome conference previously in reply to Wandile.

It seems to many that the fealty pledged and loyalty offered to the Holy See by Eastern Catholics is not reciprocated by the Vatican bureaucracy, notwithstanding the public positions of the Popes and the published papers of many leading Roman academics.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #125 on: November 21, 2013, 03:51:29 PM »
it says "This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming."

The decision to ban married Greek Clergy was revoked.

But what was revoked?  The clergy affected by Card. Sodano's decree were already ordained priests.  If the decision to remove them from their parishes was revoked, all that means is that they were allowed to come back.  It doesn't necessarily address permitting the ordination of married men.  And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed, they are not allowed to ordain married men, but have to send them elsewhere to get ordained and then come back.  Such things have happened in America as well.  It's sad, because it makes both ordination and marriage look like something dirty that has to be hidden from polite company.   
Ditto the letter of the head of their Episcopal Conference of Italy telling their Romanian Major Archbishop not to send married priests to Italy (of course, mandating celibacy in Romania is A-OK).

This was brought up at a Synod of their Middle Eastern bishops at the Vatican.  AFAIK, only silence has ensued.

The North American and Australian Ukrainian Greek Catholic faculty from the Orientale in Rome sponsored a forum on this latest insult from the head of the Oriental Congregation last year. They invited an Orthodox priest, several international EC scholars and an outspoken Jesuit of  Greek heritage from Florence to present. They were not permitted to meet at the Orientale, they met at the hostel run by the RCC of Australia. Apparently students from Ukraine and Poland were "urged" not to attend. This was also the topic at the Lumen Gentile conference in DC this spring where it was clear to the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox attendees that the Romans simply do not understand, or more likely arrogantly dismiss, the Eastern point of view. I linked the Rome conference previously in reply to Wandile.

It seems to many that the fealty pledged and loyalty offered to the Holy See by Eastern Catholics is not reciprocated by the Vatican bureaucracy, notwithstanding the public positions of the Popes and the published papers of many leading Roman academics.
that's how plausible deniability "works."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #126 on: November 21, 2013, 03:54:16 PM »
FWIW we have had two married men be ordained in the Eparchy of Phoenix by Bishop Gerald, just within the past few months. And they weren't previously married converts.

I've been told that it is not these externals that we are all exampling but the Theological differences that mainly keep us apart.

The point is though that these "external" differences are exemplary of the attitudes and behavior of many in the west, just as many on this thread can only see a united church wherein the west would be remade in a "Byzantine" fashion. Without an appreciation of and respect for each other's long established and venerable -and non dogmatic - traditions, there is NO hope for unity or understandings (no one uses the term concession) on any substantive issues.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #127 on: November 21, 2013, 03:57:41 PM »
it says "This action created an enormous backlash from the Eastern Catholic Churches worldwide to which the decision was later revoked and an apology was forthcoming."

The decision to ban married Greek Clergy was revoked.

But what was revoked?  The clergy affected by Card. Sodano's decree were already ordained priests.  If the decision to remove them from their parishes was revoked, all that means is that they were allowed to come back.  It doesn't necessarily address permitting the ordination of married men.  And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed, they are not allowed to ordain married men, but have to send them elsewhere to get ordained and then come back.  Such things have happened in America as well.  It's sad, because it makes both ordination and marriage look like something dirty that has to be hidden from polite company.   
Ditto the letter of the head of their Episcopal Conference of Italy telling their Romanian Major Archbishop not to send married priests to Italy (of course, mandating celibacy in Romania is A-OK).

This was brought up at a Synod of their Middle Eastern bishops at the Vatican.  AFAIK, only silence has ensued.

The North American and Australian Ukrainian Greek Catholic faculty from the Orientale in Rome sponsored a forum on this latest insult from the head of the Oriental Congregation last year. They invited an Orthodox priest, several international EC scholars and an outspoken Jesuit of  Greek heritage from Florence to present. They were not permitted to meet at the Orientale, they met at the hostel run by the RCC of Australia. Apparently students from Ukraine and Poland were "urged" not to attend. This was also the topic at the Lumen Gentile conference in DC this spring where it was clear to the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox attendees that the Romans simply do not understand, or more likely arrogantly dismiss, the Eastern point of view. I linked the Rome conference previously in reply to Wandile.

It seems to many that the fealty pledged and loyalty offered to the Holy See by Eastern Catholics is not reciprocated by the Vatican bureaucracy, notwithstanding the public positions of the Popes and the published papers of many leading Roman academics.
that's how plausible deniability "works."

I do think it's fair to observe that both west and east utilize that practice regarding inter-church matters.
Lots of talk, lots of symbolism, no substance.

However, as others have observed, there remain valid reasons to keep talking. Just keep expectations off the table.

Offline ErmyCath

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #128 on: November 21, 2013, 06:32:14 PM »
FWIW we have had two married men be ordained in the Eparchy of Phoenix by Bishop Gerald, just within the past few months. And they weren't previously married converts.

I've been told that it is not these externals that we are all exampling but the Theological differences that mainly keep us apart.

The point is though that these "external" differences are exemplary of the attitudes and behavior of many in the west, just as many on this thread can only see a united church wherein the west would be remade in a "Byzantine" fashion. Without an appreciation of and respect for each other's long established and venerable -and non dogmatic - traditions, there is NO hope for unity or understandings (no one uses the term concession) on any substantive issues.

The "West" has developed traditions and customs in a way consistent with the doctrines it would have to give up in any future united Church, though. So, it's tough to say what is appropriate of western customs and externals and what is too tainted by doctrinal error.  There's no clear delineation. So, from a practical perspective, it is a near impossibility to imagine what the western church would look like if orthodoxy had prevailed over the past millenium. With that in mind, the only frame of reference is eastern unless one were to be attempt to inorganically impose what one thought western orthodoxy would look like. That would always be speculative and involve a large degree of archaeologism, though. And it would mirror to a degree the flaws of thinking of the Roman Church for the past 50 years.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #129 on: November 21, 2013, 06:34:43 PM »
Kniaziev, Lossky maybe even Evdokimov, also Bulgakov had no problem with the Lourdes apparitions .

Do you have a source for this claim?
yeah, but the books are in Romania now.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #130 on: November 21, 2013, 06:42:31 PM »
IIRC Paul Evdokimov said somewhere in his introduction to Orthodoxy or in The Art of the Icon that, when asked which image of the Theotokos the Lady of Lourdes looked like, Bernardette picked a Byzantine icon.   

Offline augustin717

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #131 on: November 21, 2013, 06:48:00 PM »
Kniazieff had a book translated into Romanian  "Maica Domnului in Biserica Ortodoxa"-"La mere de Dieu dans l'Eglise Orthodoxe" where he discusses Lourdes as well.
So anyways to me dzeremy's intransigence was funny.
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Offline Maria

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #132 on: November 21, 2013, 06:49:07 PM »
IIRC Paul Evdokimov said somewhere in his introduction to Orthodoxy or in The Art of the Icon that, when asked which image of the Theotokos the Lady of Lourdes looked like, Bernardette picked a Byzantine icon.  

I have never heard that. Do you have a picture or name of that icon?

This commonly used picture does not resemble any Orthodox icon of the Theotokos that I have ever seen:

http://www.picturesongold.com/products/saint-bernadette-medal-p66354.html
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 06:57:43 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #133 on: November 21, 2013, 06:58:15 PM »
The post vatican 2 church is not the same as the pre
Vatican 2 church. It was completely revamped. Like a new operating system with the same platform. How do we adress that?

Perhaps start a new thread?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline username!

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #134 on: November 21, 2013, 07:07:52 PM »
The post vatican 2 church is not the same as the pre
Vatican 2 church. It was completely revamped. Like a new operating system with the same platform. How do we adress that?

Perhaps start a new thread?
Yes dear