Author Topic: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?  (Read 34691 times)

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Offline theistgal

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #135 on: November 21, 2013, 07:59:04 PM »
So just out of curiosity, what would the Orthodox Church have to concede? Or is it all on the Romans?
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #136 on: November 21, 2013, 08:22:44 PM »
So just out of curiosity, what would the Orthodox Church have to concede? Or is it all on the Romans?

Probably both sides will have to kick out a few unorthodox bishops (forcibly retire them to monasteries).
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #137 on: November 21, 2013, 08:31:52 PM »
So just out of curiosity, what would the Orthodox Church have to concede? Or is it all on the Romans?
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #138 on: November 21, 2013, 09:44:17 PM »
The "West" has developed traditions and customs in a way consistent with the doctrines it would have to give up in any future united Church, though. So, it's tough to say what is appropriate of western customs and externals and what is too tainted by doctrinal error.  There's no clear delineation. So, from a practical perspective, it is a near impossibility to imagine what the western church would look like if orthodoxy had prevailed over the past millenium. With that in mind, the only frame of reference is eastern unless one were to be attempt to inorganically impose what one thought western orthodoxy would look like. That would always be speculative and involve a large degree of archaeologism, though. And it would mirror to a degree the flaws of thinking of the Roman Church for the past 50 years.

I'd like to see a list of these "traditions and customs" which developed out of the "doctrines" which the RC's would be required to give up before I could agree with this. 

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #139 on: November 21, 2013, 09:58:55 PM »
Rome would have to concede its claim to papal supremacy, what Isa calls ultramontism. The idea that the Pope is to the Patriarchs like an emperor to all others cannot stay, because this belief prevents the EOs from having their own beliefs and practices when the Pope disagrees with them. The Pope can simply order them to do whatever he will want, and if they are one Church it becomes an unworkable contradiction. An idea that "oh, he would never do that against their will" is not practical or secure, because sometimes the Pope believes X and EOs think Y. But if the Pope is the ultimate hierarch it becomes a situation where you must accept his beliefs because he is your hierarch.
Suffice it to say, we don't see any chance of unity at least in this lifetime.  But, it is good that we do have dialogues from time to time for discussing the deplorable state of morals in the world.  I for one, would not tolerate any compromising of our Faith just for the sake of obtaining a unity.  Its just not worth it. 
I agree. I think that some differences could be allowed, but the main one that could not would be papal supremacy. A difference that could be allowed I believe is the use of unleavened bread in RC churches. Our Western Rite ones use unleavened bread, but I think that the leavening issue should not be enough for a division of churches. I could even see an Orthodox rendering of the filioque to be acceptable, because once it has proceeded from the father to the son, the Spirit now proceeds from the Son too. There was an ecumenical (joint) meeting of RCs and EOs that explained that a certain view of it would be OK.

But Papal supremacy is the thing that could not be allowed to stay because if it did, it would mean Orthodox would have to agree with whatever the Pope said, because he would be their highest leader then. Catholics even have a chart I saw about how the Pope is at the top and Patriarchs are below him.
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #140 on: November 21, 2013, 10:04:52 PM »
Rome would have to concede its claim to papal supremacy, what Isa calls ultramontism. The idea that the Pope is to the Patriarchs like an emperor to all others cannot stay, because this belief prevents the EOs from having their own beliefs and practices when the Pope disagrees with them. The Pope can simply order them to do whatever he will want, and if they are one Church it becomes an unworkable contradiction. An idea that "oh, he would never do that against their will" is not practical or secure, because sometimes the Pope believes X and EOs think Y. But if the Pope is the ultimate hierarch it becomes a situation where you must accept his beliefs because he is your hierarch.
Suffice it to say, we don't see any chance of unity at least in this lifetime.  But, it is good that we do have dialogues from time to time for discussing the deplorable state of morals in the world.  I for one, would not tolerate any compromising of our Faith just for the sake of obtaining a unity.  Its just not worth it. 
I agree. I think that some differences could be allowed, but the main one that could not would be papal supremacy. A difference that could be allowed I believe is the use of unleavened bread in RC churches. Our Western Rite ones use unleavened bread, but I think that the leavening issue should not be enough for a division of churches. I could even see an Orthodox rendering of the filioque to be acceptable, because once it has proceeded from the father to the son, the Spirit now proceeds from the Son too. There was an ecumenical (joint) meeting of RCs and EOs that explained that a certain view of it would be OK.

But Papal supremacy is the thing that could not be allowed to stay because if it did, it would mean Orthodox would have to agree with whatever the Pope said, because he would be their highest leader then. Catholics even have a chart I saw about how the Pope is at the top and Patriarchs are below him.

Yeah, from the Father through the Son was taught by St. John of Damascus. But, that's not what the Creed said. And the consensus view as outlined in the Council of Chalcedon and by Pope St. Leo III was that the Creed couldn't be tampered with.

Therefore, even if 'through the Son' is acceptable theologically, it is not acceptable as an addition to the Creed. That's my view anyway.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:19:46 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #141 on: November 21, 2013, 10:16:51 PM »
The "West" has developed traditions and customs in a way consistent with the doctrines it would have to give up in any future united Church, though. So, it's tough to say what is appropriate of western customs and externals and what is too tainted by doctrinal error.  There's no clear delineation. So, from a practical perspective, it is a near impossibility to imagine what the western church would look like if orthodoxy had prevailed over the past millenium. With that in mind, the only frame of reference is eastern unless one were to be attempt to inorganically impose what one thought western orthodoxy would look like. That would always be speculative and involve a large degree of archaeologism, though. And it would mirror to a degree the flaws of thinking of the Roman Church for the past 50 years.

I'd like to see a list of these "traditions and customs" which developed out of the "doctrines" which the RC's would be required to give up before I could agree with this. 

Various ways to obtain indulgences would be an example. In this month of November, indulgences are sought especially for the souls in Purgatory.  Of course, the pope can create new indulgenced prayers and activities.  Presumably the Orthodox wouldn't be keen on that.

The custom of First Fridays and First Saturdays also comes to mind. These customs are rooted in the Sacred Heart and Immaculate Heart based apparitions.  The custom of wearing scapulars is likewise rooted in apparitions. There is the related problem of apparitions that are celebrated on the universal Church Calendar.

One could argue that western mental prayer is at odds with Orthodox teaching.  If so, that would do away with most Catholics' daily prayer routine, which involves the Rosary.  Then there are the Stations of the Cross.

I am intentionally overstating the case here to make the point that the basics of Roman Catholic piety originated in the post-schism era. One cannot simply go back in time because the development has essentially eliminated what came before (I presume this to be the case because there is little trace of what came before). I'm curious if there is anyone who can hazard a guess as to what piety looked like in the pre-schism West.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:17:20 PM by ErmyCath »
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #142 on: November 21, 2013, 10:33:50 PM »
Yeah, from the Father through the Son was taught by St. John of Damascus. But, that's not what the Creed said. And the consensus view as outlined in the Council of Chalcedon and by Pope St. Leo III was that the Creed couldn't be tampered with.

Therefore, even if 'through the Son' is acceptable theologically, it is not acceptable as an addition to the Creed. That's my view anyway.
I agree.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:34:06 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #143 on: November 21, 2013, 10:40:08 PM »
Various ways to obtain indulgences would be an example. In this month of November, indulgences are sought especially for the souls in Purgatory.  Of course, the pope can create new indulgenced prayers and activities.  Presumably the Orthodox wouldn't be keen on that.

Seeing as the doctrinal problem here would be indulgences and not the performance of pious acts, I think this is a simple matter: abandon all talk of indulgences.  Orthodox people don't have to be bribed to go to the cemetery to pray for the dead.  Why should Catholics need the extra motivation?  Those pious customs can and should continue as long as their underlying faith is Orthodox.  

Quote
The custom of First Fridays and First Saturdays also comes to mind. These customs are rooted in the Sacred Heart and Immaculate Heart based apparitions.  The custom of wearing scapulars is likewise rooted in apparitions. There is the related problem of apparitions that are celebrated on the universal Church Calendar.

To the extent that devotions which grew out of apparitions and other mystical phenomena involve some element of heterodox faith, they should be eliminated or sufficiently purged of those elements.  But I hardly see the problem with encouraging voluntary Mass attendance in honour of our Lady or something like that.  I also don't think scapulars are much of an issue: they don't originate in apparitions, though some have been promoted by such.  Again, if you remove the heterodox associations, what you have left is the wearing of something in honour of someone, and a prayer rule associated with that custom.  

I agree with you on the inclusion of feasts of apparitions on the universal calendar, I don't think it makes sense to say on the one hand that no one is required to believe in apparitions and then require them to pray a Mass the prayers of which all take the apparition as a given.  But removing the feasts or substituting different prayers shouldn't be so difficult.  

Quote
One could argue that western mental prayer is at odds with Orthodox teaching.  If so, that would do away with most Catholics' daily prayer routine, which involves the Rosary.  Then there are the Stations of the Cross.

Certain forms of Western mental prayer would definitely be at odds with Orthodox teaching, but not all.  The Rosary and the Stations of the Cross would not need much adaptation, other than advising against the use of imagination in prayer.  But certainly, if we are forbidden to have any ideas at all when we pray, what are we doing when we pray the Liturgy or view and venerate icons?  This is one of those instances where I think some Orthodox do not think critically about what others are doing, but simply dictate.  

Quote
I am intentionally overstating the case here to make the point that the basics of Roman Catholic piety originated in the post-schism era. One cannot simply go back in time because the development has essentially eliminated what came before (I presume this to be the case because there is little trace of what came before). I'm curious if there is anyone who can hazard a guess as to what piety looked like in the pre-schism West.

While I agree with your essential idea, I don't know how much I agree that the basics of RC piety developed after the schism.  Certainly there existed forms of what we now know as the Rosary, the Stations were simply a copying of a Hagiopolite pilgrimage route for those who could not make the trip, scapulars originate with the monastic orders and laypeople's association with them, and this itself points to the greater influence which the liturgy had in the spiritual lives of the faithful.  Basically, there have been moves (of varying degrees of success) within the RCC towards going back to basics.  

I know you said you were intentionally exaggerating, but my response is what it is because there are people for whom this overstatement doesn't go far enough, for whom "Orthodox = Byzantine" or "Orthodox = Eastern", and that's absurd.  We need to think of these things in a better way, even if a reunion will not happen in our lifetime.  

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #144 on: November 22, 2013, 04:01:14 AM »
And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed

I can't say I like the fact you undermine my words without giving any arguments against. So should I start to ignore your messages too as unreliable?
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #145 on: November 22, 2013, 06:11:58 AM »
And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed

I can't say I like the fact you undermine my words without giving any arguments against. So should I start to ignore your messages too as unreliable?

He wasn't undermining your words. In fact he was implying that you know better than Wandile what the situation of Eastern Catholic priests is in Poland, because you live there ("on the ground") and not in South Africa. 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 06:22:15 AM by Romaios »

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #146 on: November 22, 2013, 06:47:54 AM »
And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed

I can't say I like the fact you undermine my words without giving any arguments against. So should I start to ignore your messages too as unreliable?

He wasn't undermining your words. In fact he was implying that you know better than Wandile what the situation of Eastern Catholic priests is in Poland, because you live there ("on the ground") and not in South Africa. 

Why "if" then?
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #147 on: November 22, 2013, 09:12:04 AM »
Mor Ephrem, I agree with your assessment for the most part. As one currently undergoing what might be a conversion from Roman Catholicism to EO, I personally see the sort of phenomenon you're detailing. I think this transition, if it is such, is made more difficult because of the cultural changes and not so much the doctrinal changes.

The question, then, is how can one sift the cultural from the doctrinal, whilst referring back to the pre-schism west, to come up with an authentic, organic version of non-Byzantine, Western-looking Orthodoxy?

I don't think it can be done. I think that as westerners become Orthodox, they will develop new modes of being Orthodox in the west and this will naturally be affected by the Byzantine heritage, as well as by various forms of western Chriatianity. I don't know that that's a bad thing, but it will take quite a while to sort out. I think it'll ultimately be more genuine than trying to somehow rediscover pre-schism practice.

There is still the problem of stripping away the dogmatic from various practices, which is easy on a popular level because many people pay little attention to the doctrine behind a practice. On the other hand, RC dogmatics is itself quite complex in terms of simply knowing that something is dogma, doctrine, or otherwise. So, while your suggestions are practical at the lowest levels, I don't know that they work with reference to "Rome".
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #148 on: November 22, 2013, 03:27:41 PM »
And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed

I can't say I like the fact you undermine my words without giving any arguments against. So should I start to ignore your messages too as unreliable?

He wasn't undermining your words. In fact he was implying that you know better than Wandile what the situation of Eastern Catholic priests is in Poland, because you live there ("on the ground") and not in South Africa. 

Why "if" then?

I used "if" because I'm speaking English, and that's how we use our words.  Romaios understood me perfectly. 

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #149 on: November 22, 2013, 03:37:36 PM »
The question, then, is how can one sift the cultural from the doctrinal, whilst referring back to the pre-schism west, to come up with an authentic, organic version of non-Byzantine, Western-looking Orthodoxy?

I don't think it can be done. I think that as westerners become Orthodox, they will develop new modes of being Orthodox in the west and this will naturally be affected by the Byzantine heritage, as well as by various forms of western Chriatianity. I don't know that that's a bad thing, but it will take quite a while to sort out. I think it'll ultimately be more genuine than trying to somehow rediscover pre-schism practice.

Basically, I think I agree with you.  While I like some of the older Western rites, I have mixed feelings about resurrecting things that haven't been used continuously by a community.  For instance, I don't see a problem with WR Orthodox using recent forms of the traditional Roman rite, especially if they came into Orthodoxy with that rite.  I prefer this rite to so-called "Anglican" rites, but these, too, at least have some sort of continuous use into our day.  If these are used, I think it's only a matter of time before a new way of living out Orthodoxy in a Western form will develop.  I don't think the primary thing is to rediscover how to be a sixth-century WR Orthodox, but how to infuse what we do have and what we are living out with Orthodoxy. 

Quote
There is still the problem of stripping away the dogmatic from various practices, which is easy on a popular level because many people pay little attention to the doctrine behind a practice. On the other hand, RC dogmatics is itself quite complex in terms of simply knowing that something is dogma, doctrine, or otherwise. So, while your suggestions are practical at the lowest levels, I don't know that they work with reference to "Rome".

What do you mean?

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #150 on: November 22, 2013, 04:27:19 PM »
So just out of curiosity, what would the Orthodox Church have to concede? Or is it all on the Romans?

Im happy the way things are, lets not mess it up with any false unity. 

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #151 on: November 22, 2013, 05:24:58 PM »
And, if Michal's on the ground version of things is to be believed

I can't say I like the fact you undermine my words without giving any arguments against. So should I start to ignore your messages too as unreliable?

He wasn't undermining your words. In fact he was implying that you know better than Wandile what the situation of Eastern Catholic priests is in Poland, because you live there ("on the ground") and not in South Africa. 

Why "if" then?

It could be taken in a few ways. A more charitable explanation could be that you have provided context for your statement to be believed, assuming you have faithfully represented the situation on the ground. So this could be expressed by other conditional conjunctions, like "should", "assuming that", etc. Call it a quirk of English, I suppose (though I'm sure plenty of other languages do the same). It often assumes a negative tone because that's how people are, but as a conjunction in itself can go either way. See, for instance, Kipling's famous poem "If", where the use of the word is understood to mean "Should you fulfill condition X, then Y" (and not "I doubt that you are (capable of) doing X").

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #152 on: November 22, 2013, 06:30:58 PM »

This is more of a deal breaker, IMO (no offence, cute girls  :P):







Oh, dear God, YES! "Special ministers of the Eucharist", or whatever the exact term is for them, just have to go, whether they're kids, retirees, or anything in between. Clergy ONLY should administer Holy Communion.


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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #153 on: November 22, 2013, 06:43:14 PM »
Just wanted to say, Mor Ephrem, if all Orthodox were as understanding and compassionate towards us beknighted Romans as you, reunion would happen a lot faster.  :angel:
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #154 on: November 22, 2013, 06:48:54 PM »
Just wanted to say, Mor Ephrem, if all Orthodox were as understanding and compassionate towards us beknighted Romans as you, reunion would happen a lot faster.  :angel:

Frankly, I think that there are more of us who think along lines similar to those of Mor out there than a reading of threads online would indicate. But remember that on the Roman side of the divide there are plenty of 'it's my way or the highway to hell' types out there as well! (and a few even post here!) ;)

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #155 on: November 22, 2013, 08:12:41 PM »
Just wanted to say, Mor Ephrem, if all Orthodox were as understanding and compassionate towards us beknighted Romans as you, reunion would happen a lot faster.  :angel:

Frankly, I think that there are more of us who think along lines similar to those of Mor out there than a reading of threads online would indicate. But remember that on the Roman side of the divide there are plenty of 'it's my way or the highway to hell' types out there as well! (and a few even post here!) ;)

True, but more of us post here because we are in exile from the "highway to hell" types. :-)
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #156 on: November 22, 2013, 08:51:21 PM »
Just wanted to say, Mor Ephrem, if all Orthodox were as understanding and compassionate towards us beknighted Romans as you, reunion would happen a lot faster.  :angel:

Frankly, I think that there are more of us who think along lines similar to those of Mor out there than a reading of threads online would indicate. But remember that on the Roman side of the divide there are plenty of 'it's my way or the highway to hell' types out there as well! (and a few even post here!) ;)

True, but more of us post here because we are in exile from the "highway to hell" types. :-)

Well, JoesS2 is right. We need real unity not a happy nice false sense of unity. And unless some of those things are resolved, it won't be a true unity. It may not sound nice, but sometimes it needs to happen.
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #157 on: November 22, 2013, 08:55:23 PM »
I don't know that I necessarily agree with all of these as stated above.  Returning to the traditional order and method of the sacraments of initiation is probably the only one I can agree with wholeheartedly.  Everything else seems to depend to a greater or lesser degree on the axiom "Byzantine = Orthodox". 

Which ones would you disagree with?

Let's do this in order:

Practices?

-Resumption of fasting on Wed. and Fri. and in preparation for Eucharist according to the liturgical life of the Church.

We need to accept that customs and disciplines in the Orthodox West were different from those in the East even before the schism, and so we cannot just impose our way on them, we need to let them be themselves.  I don't know what about the preparation for the Eucharist I would recommend changing except the length of the pre-communion fast: even three hours seems so little, but one hour? 

I suppose we could insist on Wednesday and Friday fasting in terms of putting it on the books again, but let's be real: how many Orthodox follow these fasts?  And when they do, how strictly do they follow them?  Just putting them back on the books may be enough of an accomplishment, but let's not pretend that they will suddenly start to fast because we said so when our say so isn't enough for our own people. 

And this is besides the fact that fasting on Saturdays, forbidden in the East, was an ancient custom in Rome according to Pope Leo I.  In another thread, we couldn't figure out when the West dropped Wednesdays, so who's to say that definitely is a post-schism development?       

I don't know if it's worth fighting over this.

Quote
-Forced Clerical Celibacy.

It's not forced because no one is forced to become a cleric.  Celibacy is one of the requirements they seek when considering who is a qualified candidate for ministry in their Church.  That is a matter of discipline, not doctrine, and they have made enough exceptions in the West to at least draw attention to its disciplinary nature.  Since they do not say celibacy is intrinsic to priesthood in any doctrinal sense, and it is not required out of hatred for marriage (which would be uncanonical), I think this is another matter in which it is probably best not to meddle in their internal affairs.  If they want to take the opportunity of a reunion to remove this requirement, that's fine, but to make this a condition of reunion is silly IMO. 

Quote
-Vatican II Liturgy should be sacked or reformed. Or better yet, reinstitute the Old Roman, Mozarabic, Gallician, Celtic, Ambrosian Rites of the ancient Church.

In most cases I'm familiar with, the regions which had their own rites (Milan, Toledo, Paris, etc.) did not have the Roman rite imposed on them, but accepted it voluntarily (same with some of the religious orders, e.g., the Discalced Carmelites).  Where these rites are still in use, they are restricted to their regions or orders, whether modified post-Vatican II or not.  If they have it, let them use it.  But if they don't have it and are happy with the Roman rite, I don't think we need to impose on them a rite which hasn't been used in so long. 

Regarding reform or abolition of the Vatican II rites, again, I think it is best not to meddle as long as the rite is orthodox.  Who is in the best place to make liturgical decisions for the Church of Rome?  Her synod or Russia's?  As long as the rite is orthodox and a basically reverential celebration can be ensured, with violations dealt with adequately, I don't see why we should interfere.  We should encourage Rome to be a better, more authentic Rome. 

Quote
-From what I understand of the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church, only the bread and not the wine is given to members. That would not be the case in an 'Orthodox Rome'.

Since the intinction is done ritually at the Agnus Dei, I don't think Communion under one species is necessarily a big deal.  The shift in practice occurred for historical reasons that, to my knowledge, did not involve heresy, and has basically become an immemorial tradition.  Communion under both species has a higher "sign value", and is preferable, but not a non-negotiable deal breaker. 

This is more of a deal breaker, IMO (no offence, cute girls  :P):







This makes the most sense and shows the most mercy of anything I have ever seen said about this subject, thanks for showing the way Mor.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #158 on: November 22, 2013, 09:10:18 PM »
Just wanted to say, Mor Ephrem, if all Orthodox were as understanding and compassionate towards us beknighted Romans as you, reunion would happen a lot faster.  :angel:

Frankly, I think that there are more of us who think along lines similar to those of Mor out there than a reading of threads online would indicate. But remember that on the Roman side of the divide there are plenty of 'it's my way or the highway to hell' types out there as well! (and a few even post here!) ;)

True, but more of us post here because we are in exile from the "highway to hell" types. :-)

Well, JoesS2 is right. We need real unity not a happy nice false sense of unity. And unless some of those things are resolved, it won't be a true unity. It may not sound nice, but sometimes it needs to happen.

Yes. But you also need more people who understand not only what Roman Catholics actually believe but why, before criticizing them.  8)
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #159 on: November 22, 2013, 09:11:19 PM »
Just wanted to say, Mor Ephrem, if all Orthodox were as understanding and compassionate towards us beknighted Romans as you, reunion would happen a lot faster.  :angel:

Frankly, I think that there are more of us who think along lines similar to those of Mor out there than a reading of threads online would indicate. But remember that on the Roman side of the divide there are plenty of 'it's my way or the highway to hell' types out there as well! (and a few even post here!) ;)

True, but more of us post here because we are in exile from the "highway to hell" types. :-)



Well, JoesS2 is right. We need real unity not a happy nice false sense of unity. And unless some of those things are resolved, it won't be a true unity. It may not sound nice, but sometimes it needs to happen.

Yes. But you also need more people who understand not only what Roman Catholics actually believe but why, before criticizing them.  8)

They believe that the Pope is God, because he told them so. What's not to get?! ;D

On a more serious note, Rome returning to the faith of the apostles, in whatever form that takes, is probably the best approach to reunion.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 09:14:05 PM by lovesupreme »

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #160 on: November 22, 2013, 09:15:05 PM »
Just wanted to say, Mor Ephrem, if all Orthodox were as understanding and compassionate towards us beknighted Romans as you, reunion would happen a lot faster.  :angel:

Frankly, I think that there are more of us who think along lines similar to those of Mor out there than a reading of threads online would indicate. But remember that on the Roman side of the divide there are plenty of 'it's my way or the highway to hell' types out there as well! (and a few even post here!) ;)

True, but more of us post here because we are in exile from the "highway to hell" types. :-)

Well, JoesS2 is right. We need real unity not a happy nice false sense of unity. And unless some of those things are resolved, it won't be a true unity. It may not sound nice, but sometimes it needs to happen.

Yes. But you also need more people who understand not only what Roman Catholics actually believe but why, before criticizing them.  8)

They believe that the Pope is God, because he told them so. What's not to get?! ;D

Papal Supremacy and Papal Infallibility are real stumbling blocks.

Even in 1870, when the Pope of Rome forced this novel teaching on the hierarchy, some did not go along and lost their bishopric. While this event was the beginning of the Old Catholics, others simply went East and joined the Orthodox Church.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #161 on: November 22, 2013, 09:25:40 PM »
 I have seen parishioners who are faithful lifelong churchgoers who after attending a bible class held after paraclesis by our priest, complain that they do not agree with some of his interpretations, and you will find that there are more than you think all over the Orthodox who do not agree, this also applies to the faithful of RC, so it is basically why this whole argument to me is rather pointless and basically never to be resolved, even as it has pointed out that it could.

I have faith in the mercy of God and not men, who can kill the body but not the soul (LK 12:4).
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #162 on: November 22, 2013, 09:43:06 PM »
I have seen parishioners who are faithful lifelong churchgoers who after attending a bible class held after paraclesis by our priest, complain that they do not agree with some of his interpretations, and you will find that there are more than you think all over the Orthodox who do not agree, this also applies to the faithful of RC, so it is basically why this whole argument to me is rather pointless and basically never to be resolved, even as it has pointed out that it could.

I have faith in the mercy of God and not men, who can kill the body but not the soul (LK 12:4).

When I used to attend the local Orthodox parish Bible Studies, the class largely consisted of inquirers, current catechumens, and those who were recently received into Orthodoxy. There were rarely any arguments as the folks present readily accepted whatever the priest said as the "gospel" truth.

However, it was after the Sunday sermons where disagreements were expressed. Our priest would go into the parish hall only to be confronted by certain angry parishioners, cradle Orthodox, who were very upset that the priest would dare to mention that a suicide* would normally not have a church burial. In fact, several priests were forced to resign or relocate when their sermons upset the folks in the parish council.

*When a popular teen girl had committed suicide over a breakup with her boyfriend, and had been given a funeral with the permission of the bishop, several other girls and boys also attempted suicide. The priest and the bishop then told the parish that suicides do not normally have a funeral in an attempt to stop the attempted suicides. Hence, a letter from the bishop was read to all parishioners.

How does the Catholic Church treat suicides? Do most or all get a Catholic funeral service and burial?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 09:45:35 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #163 on: November 22, 2013, 09:45:13 PM »
Just wanted to say, Mor Ephrem, if all Orthodox were as understanding and compassionate towards us beknighted Romans as you, reunion would happen a lot faster.  :angel:

Frankly, I think that there are more of us who think along lines similar to those of Mor out there than a reading of threads online would indicate. But remember that on the Roman side of the divide there are plenty of 'it's my way or the highway to hell' types out there as well! (and a few even post here!) ;)

True, but more of us post here because we are in exile from the "highway to hell" types. :-)

Well, JoesS2 is right. We need real unity not a happy nice false sense of unity. And unless some of those things are resolved, it won't be a true unity. It may not sound nice, but sometimes it needs to happen.

Yes. But you also need more people who understand not only what Roman Catholics actually believe but why, before criticizing them.  8)

I agree...there's plenty of stuff to criticise legitimately, and that's actually worth pursuing on its own terms.  But zeal without knowledge is always stupid, and often destructive.  

Podkarpatska is right, I hope.  There are mor(e) of us out there in real life, but they have lives.  I, on the other hand, am here on a Friday night.  :P

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #164 on: November 22, 2013, 09:48:32 PM »
*When a popular teen girl had committed suicide over a breakup with her boyfriend, and had been given a funeral with the permission of the bishop, several other girls and boys also attempted suicide. The priest and the bishop then told the parish that suicides do not normally have a funeral in an attempt to stop the attempted suicides. Hence, a letter from the bishop was read to all parishioners.

What the heck...?

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #165 on: November 22, 2013, 09:49:43 PM »
Doctrines?

-The Filioque

-Papal Authority in the sense that Vatican I defines that, the Pope is greater than the Ecumenical Councils and has the right to determine doctrine for the entire Church when speaking ex cathedra.

Nobody has the right to determine doctrine in the Orthodox Church.

-Purgatory as a literal place where people are burned in fire; and Indulgences. As far as I know, Indulgences got to go, but Purgatory can be 'optionalized'.

-Substitutionary atonement as an optional view of looking at the Passion and Atonement of Christ.

-Original Sin as hereditary guilt, not as a single decisive action that caused corruption of the Creation, as being an optional view.

-The Immaculate Conception as an optional view of who St. Mary is.

-The Ecclesiology of Rome with a 'head' on top and the 'body' below needs to go. The Pope would simply be a figurehead, like any other Primate of any other area of the world.

Practices?

-Resumption of fasting on Wed. and Fri. and in preparation for Eucharist according to the liturgical life of the Church.

-Baptism as immersion, and following Baptism immediate 'Confirmation' of the baptized. In other words, infants who are baptized will be confirmed immediately following.

-Paedocommunion, infants are administered the Holy Eucharist following their entry into the Church through Baptism.

-Forced Clerical Celibacy.

-Vatican II Liturgy should be sacked or reformed. Or better yet, reinstitute the Old Roman, Mozarabic, Gallician, Celtic, Ambrosian Rites of the ancient Church.

-From what I understand of the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church, only the bread and not the wine is given to members. That would not be the case in an 'Orthodox Rome'.

That's all I can think of.
That;s it? Well, that should be easy enough.

Problem solved.
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #166 on: November 22, 2013, 09:50:49 PM »
*When a popular teen girl had committed suicide over a breakup with her boyfriend, and had been given a funeral with the permission of the bishop, several other girls and boys also attempted suicide. The priest and the bishop then told the parish that suicides do not normally have a funeral in an attempt to stop the attempted suicides. Hence, a letter from the bishop was read to all parishioners.

What the heck...?

Mass hysteria among the teenage boys and girls was ongoing. Life was hard and teens just wanted to be with their friend on the other side.

The Bishop and priest thought that some tough talk was needed. It worked.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 09:51:59 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #167 on: November 22, 2013, 09:56:53 PM »
This is...  ..  *holds head with hands ala Jackie Chan*



Let's just get back to arguing over dogmas and doctrines. That made my head hurt less. Deal?

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #168 on: November 22, 2013, 10:21:39 PM »
So just out of curiosity, what would the Orthodox Church have to concede?
The Orthodox would have to give up pierogies.

However, with God all things are possible.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #169 on: November 22, 2013, 10:42:08 PM »
Doctrines?

-The Filioque

-Papal Authority in the sense that Vatican I defines that, the Pope is greater than the Ecumenical Councils and has the right to determine doctrine for the entire Church when speaking ex cathedra.

Nobody has the right to determine doctrine in the Orthodox Church.

-Purgatory as a literal place where people are burned in fire; and Indulgences. As far as I know, Indulgences got to go, but Purgatory can be 'optionalized'.

-Substitutionary atonement as an optional view of looking at the Passion and Atonement of Christ.

-Original Sin as hereditary guilt, not as a single decisive action that caused corruption of the Creation, as being an optional view.

-The Immaculate Conception as an optional view of who St. Mary is.

-The Ecclesiology of Rome with a 'head' on top and the 'body' below needs to go. The Pope would simply be a figurehead, like any other Primate of any other area of the world.

Practices?

-Resumption of fasting on Wed. and Fri. and in preparation for Eucharist according to the liturgical life of the Church.

-Baptism as immersion, and following Baptism immediate 'Confirmation' of the baptized. In other words, infants who are baptized will be confirmed immediately following.

-Paedocommunion, infants are administered the Holy Eucharist following their entry into the Church through Baptism.

-Forced Clerical Celibacy.

-Vatican II Liturgy should be sacked or reformed. Or better yet, reinstitute the Old Roman, Mozarabic, Gallician, Celtic, Ambrosian Rites of the ancient Church.

-From what I understand of the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church, only the bread and not the wine is given to members. That would not be the case in an 'Orthodox Rome'.

That's all I can think of.
That;s it? Well, that should be easy enough.

Problem solved.

Let's start from the beginning... from whom does the Holy Spirit proceed?
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #170 on: November 22, 2013, 10:52:19 PM »
Even in 1870, when the Pope of Rome forced this novel teaching on the hierarchy, some did not go along and lost their bishopric. While this event was the beginning of the Old Catholics, others simply went East and joined the Orthodox Church.

What bishops joined the Orthodox Church?
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #171 on: November 22, 2013, 11:03:19 PM »
So just out of curiosity, what would the Orthodox Church have to concede?
The Orthodox would have to give up pierogies.

However, with God all things are possible.

Why would the Orthodox have to give up pierogies when the Russian Eastern Catholics and Ukrainians also enjoy them?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #172 on: November 23, 2013, 12:16:34 AM »
Just wanted to say, Mor Ephrem, if all Orthodox were as understanding and compassionate towards us beknighted Romans as you, reunion would happen a lot faster.  :angel:

Frankly, I think that there are more of us who think along lines similar to those of Mor out there than a reading of threads online would indicate. But remember that on the Roman side of the divide there are plenty of 'it's my way or the highway to hell' types out there as well! (and a few even post here!) ;)

True, but more of us post here because we are in exile from the "highway to hell" types. :-)

Well, JoesS2 is right. We need real unity not a happy nice false sense of unity. And unless some of those things are resolved, it won't be a true unity. It may not sound nice, but sometimes it needs to happen.

Yes. But you also need more people who understand not only what Roman Catholics actually believe but why, before criticizing them.  8)

I agree...there's plenty of stuff to criticise legitimately, and that's actually worth pursuing on its own terms.  But zeal without knowledge is always stupid, and often destructive.  

Podkarpatska is right, I hope.  There are mor(e) of us out there in real life, but they have lives.  I, on the other hand, am here on a Friday night.  :P

A detailed, scholarly analysis about a vision for a united church was developed by the North American Orthodox Catholic Dialogue. For those with the time to carefully study the lengthy document, I would suggest reading " Steps Towards A Reunited Church: A Sketch Of An Orthodox-Catholic Vision For The Future", a paper issued by the North American  Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation heal at Georgetown  University, Washington, DC in 2010.

" It seems to be no exaggeration, in fact, to say that the root obstacle preventing the Orthodox and Catholic Churches from growing steadily towards sacramental and practical unity has been, and continues to be, the role that the bishop of Rome plays in the worldwide Catholic communion.  While for Catholics, maintaining communion in faith and sacraments with the bishop of Rome is considered a necessary criterion for being considered Church in the full sense, for Orthodox, as well as for Protestants, it is precisely the pope’s historic claims to authority in teaching and Church life that are most at variance with the image of the Church presented to us in the New Testament and in early Christian writings."  http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/orthodox/steps-towards-reunited-church.cfm

No rose colored glasses there, the document is hopeful, but frank.

A summary lot this month's session held in Canada is here: "Orthodox And Catholic Theologians Call For Peace In Middle East, Discuss Church Relations" - See more at: http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/news/2013/orthodox-and-catholic-theologians-call-for-peace-in-middle-east-discuss-church-relations



Offline mike

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #173 on: November 23, 2013, 01:30:22 AM »
So just out of curiosity, what would the Orthodox Church have to concede?
The Orthodox would have to give up pierogies.

However, with God all things are possible.

Why would the Orthodox have to give up pierogies when the Russian Eastern Catholics and Ukrainians also enjoy them?

Why wouldn't you get a joke at least once in history?
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #174 on: November 23, 2013, 02:39:01 AM »
So just out of curiosity, what would the Orthodox Church have to concede?
The Orthodox would have to give up pierogies.

However, with God all things are possible.

Why would the Orthodox have to give up pierogies when the Russian Eastern Catholics and Ukrainians also enjoy them?
If your brother asks you to walk a mile, walk two.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #175 on: November 23, 2013, 05:38:39 AM »
Finally another excuse to copy paste some material from a saint!

Saint John II, Metropolitan of Kiev. 1077-1089 AD

Letter to the Pope (It actually arrived to, scholars believe, an antipope)

"I have loved thy glory, O lord and blessed father, most worthy of the apostolic seat and vocation, who from afar hast looked down upon our humility and poverty, and cherishest us with the wings of love, and salutest us as thine own in thy charity, and inquirest specially concerning our true and orthodox faith, and when thou heardest admired, for so the bishop related to us of your blessedness. And since thou art such and so great a priest, I therefore in my poverty salute thee, honouring thy head and kissing thy hands and arms. Mayst thou be joyful and protected by the supreme hand of God, and may God Almighty grand good order to thee, thy spirituals, and us. I know not whence heresies have arisen respecting the true way of salvation and redemption ; and I cannot sufficiently wonder what devil was so malignant and envious, so hostile to the truth, and such an adversary to our mutual good-will, as to alienate our brotherly love from the whole Christian congregation, by saying that we are not Christians; we for our parts have from the beginning acknowledged that by the grace of God ye are Christians, although ye do not keep the faith of Christ in all things, and are in many things divided,— a fact which I will show you from the seven great synods by which the orthodox Christian faith has been established and definitely confirmed, in which also the wisdom of God has built herself a house as it were upon seven pillars. Moreover, all the popes who sat in these seven synods were held worthy of the chair of St. Peter, because they agreed with us. In the first synod was Pope Sylvester; in the second, Damasus; in the third, Celestinus; in the fourth, the most blessed Pope Leo; in the fifth, Vigil; in the sixth, Oaphanius, a venerable man, and learned in the Holy Scriptures; in the seventh, the holy Pope Adrian, who first sent Peter as bishop and abbot of the monastery of St. Savas, whence have subsequently arisen dissensions between us and you, which have principally prevailed in ancient Rana. Truly, there are many evil things done by you contrary to the divine laws and statues, of which we will briefly write to thy charity. First, concerning the unlawful observance of fasting on the Sabbath; secondly, concerning the great fast from which ye cut off a week, and eat meats, and allure men to you by the gluttony of feasting. You reject also those priests who lawfully marry wives. Ye also anoint a second time those who have been anointed in baptism by the presbyters, and say that baptisms may not be performed by simple priests but by bishops only. So likewise with respect to unwholesome unleavened bred, which manifestly indicates Jewish service or worship. And, which is the chief of all evils, ye have begun to alter and pervert those things which were ratified by the holy synods, and say of the Holy Ghost, that he not only proceeds from the Father but also from the Son, with many more things, concerning which your Blessedness ought to refer to your spiritual brother, the Patriarch of Constantinople, and to use all diligence that such errors should be at some time removed, and that we should be united in spiritual harmony, as St. Paul says in his instructive words, 'I beseech you, therefore, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye think and speak the same thing, and that there be no division among you, and that ye be joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.'
We have written to you as much as we could of these six excesses; we will hereafter write to thy charity of other things also. For if it be true as we have heard, thou thyself wilt acknowledge with me that the canons of the holy apostles are transgressed by you, as well as the institutes of the seven great councils, at which all your first patriarchs were present, and united in pronouncing your doctrine to be in vain. And that you are manifestly wrong, I will now plainly prove. In the first place, with reference to fasting on the Sabbath, you see what the holy apostles, whose doctrine ye hold, taught respecting it, as well as the most blessed Pope Clement, the first after the Apostle St. Peter, who thus writes concerning the Sabbath, from the statutes of the apostles, as it is given in the sixty-forth canon :—If an ecclesiastic be found to fast on the Lord's day or the Sabbath, except the great Sabbath, let him be degraded; but if a layman do so, let him be excommunicated and separated from the Church. Secondly, with reference to general fasting, which ye corrupt. It is a heresy of the Jacobites and Armenians, who use sheep's milk even on the great holy fast, for what true Christian dares so to do or to think? Read the canons of the sixth great synod, in which your Pope Oaphanius forbids these things. We indeed, when we learned that in Armenia and some other places they ate cheese made from the sheep's milk at the great fast, ordered our people who were there to abstain from such food and from every sacrifice to the devils; from which, if a man abstain not, he should be separated from the Church; and if he be a priest, he should be suspended from performing the sacred offices. Moreover, the third error and sin is very great, concerning the marriage of priests, for ye forbid those who have wives to receive the Lord's body; whereas the holy council, which had held at Gangra, writes in the fourth canon, 'He who despises a priest who has a wife according to law, and says that it is not lawful to receive the sacrament at his hand, let him be accursed.' The council also says, 'Every deacon or priest putting away his own wife shall be deprived of his priesthood'. The fourth sin is the anointment of confirmation. It is not everywhere said in the councils, 'I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins'. If, therefore, there is one baptism, there will be also one anointing, and the virtue of the bishop will be the same as that of the priest. The fifth error is with reference to unleavened bread, which error indeed is the beginning and root of all heresy, as I will prove; and although it might be necessary to bring to proof many Scriptures, yet I will do otherwise, and for the present will merely say: That the Jews make unleavened bread in memory of their deliverance and flight from Egypt; but we are once for all Christians—we never were in Egyptian bondage—and we have been commanded to omit this kind of Jewish observances with respect to the Sabbath, unleavened bread, and circumcision. And as St. Paul says, whosoever follows one of them is bound to keep the whole law; for the same apostle says, 'Brethren, I have received from the Lord, that which also I have delivered unto you, how that the Lord on the night on which he was betrayed, took bread, blessed, and sanctified it, broke it and gave it to the holy disciples, saying, Take and eat, etc.' Consider what I say: he did not say, 'The Lord taking unleavened bread', but bread. That on that occasion, no unleavened bread was used,—and that it was not the Passover,—and that the Lord was not then eating the Passover with his disciples, is probably from the fact, that the Jews' Passover was eaten standing, which was not the case at Christ's supper, as the Scripture says, 'While they were lying down with the twelve'; also, 'And the disciple lay upon his bosom at supper'. For when he himself says, 'With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you', he does not understand the Jews' Passover, which he had often before eaten with them. Nor when he says, 'This do in remembrance of me', did he impose the necessity of doing as at the Jews' Passover. Nor does he give them unleavened bread, but bread, when he says 'Behold the bread which I give you''; and likewise to Judas, 'To whomsoever I shall give the bread when I have dipped it in the salt, he shall betray me'. But if ye argue, 'we use unleavened bread in the sacrament, because in divine things there is no admixture of the earthly', why then have ye forgotten divinity, and follow the rites of the Jews, walking in the heresy of Julian himself, of Mahomet, of Apollinarius, and Paul the Syrian, of Samosata, and Eutychius, and Dioscorus, and others, who were pronounced at the sixth Council to be most depraved heretics, and filled with the spirit of the devil? For why do ye say, 'I believe in God the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost, who proceeds from the Father and the Son'? Truly it is marvelous and horrible to speak of, that ye thus dare pervert the faith, while from the beginning it has been constantly sung in all the Churches throughout the whole world, 'I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who, together with the Father and the Son, is worshiped and glorified'. Why then do ye not say as all other Christians do, instead of making additions, and introducing a new doctrine, while on the other hand the Apostle declares, 'If any man preach to you more than those things which we have declared to you, let him be anathema.' I hope ye may not fall under that curse, for it is a dangerous and a fearful thing to alter and pervert the Scripture of God, composed by the saints. Do ye not know how very great is your error? For ye introduce two virtues, two wills, and two principles, with reference to the Holy Spirit, taking away and making of small account his honour, and ye conform to the Macedonian heresy, from which God preserve us. I bow myself at thy sacred feet, and beseech thee to cease from errors of this kind which are amongst you, and above all abstain from unleavened bread. I wished also to write something concerning strangled and unclean animals, and of monks eating meat, but if it please God, I will write of these hereafter. Excuse me of thy extreme charity that I have written to thee of these things. Examine the Scriptures and thou will find whether the things which are done by you ought to be done. I pray thee, my Lord, write to my Lord the Patriarch of Constantinople, and to the holy metropolitans who have in themselves the word of life, and shine as lights in the world. For it may be, that by their means God may inquire concerning errors of this sort, and correct and settle them. Afterwards, if it shall seem good to thee, write to me who am least among all others. I, Metropolitan of Russia, salute thee and all thy subjects, both clergy and laity. The holy bishops, monks, kings, and great men, salute thee also. The love of the Holy Spirit be with thee and all thine. Amen."

http://books.google.com/books?id=XP46AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=false

An easy to read list of heresies of the Pope already in the 11th century according to this saint which would have to be abandoned...

1. The unlawful observance of fasting on the Sabbath
2. The great fast from which ye cut off a week, and eat meats, and allure men to you by the gluttony of feasting
3. You reject also those priests who lawfully marry wives
4. Ye also anoint a second time those who have been anointed in baptism by the presbyters, and say that baptisms may not be performed by simple priests but by bishops only.
5. Unwholesome unleavened bred, which manifestly indicates Jewish service or worship.
6. Which is the chief of all evils, ye have begun to alter and pervert those things which were ratified by the holy synods, and say of the Holy Ghost, that he not only proceeds from the Father but also from the Son,
7. "And many more things"

 ;D
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Offline theistgal

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #176 on: November 23, 2013, 10:58:46 AM »

3. You reject also those priests who lawfully marry wives

 ;D


I would assume both Orthodox and RCs would reject priests who lawfully marry wives *after* they've become priests.  ;D
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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #177 on: November 23, 2013, 12:05:51 PM »
An easy to read list of heresies of the Pope already in the 11th century according to this saint which would have to be abandoned...

1. The unlawful observance of fasting on the Sabbath

I guess the saint missed the part where Pope Leo I affirmed, at least with regard to the Ember Days, that they were of apostolic origin in the see of Rome.  This makes sense with what we know of history: Rome and parts of North Africa allowed for fasting on Saturdays even before the first ecumenical council.  So let's scratch this off the list. 

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2. The great fast from which ye cut off a week, and eat meats, and allure men to you by the gluttony of feasting

You could argue this the other way around, too.  The strict observance of abstinence from meat and dairy products, wine, etc. even on Lenten Sundays goes against their paschal nature, and so a reprieve should be granted in honour of the Resurrection. 

I would like to know the fasting rule in Rome at the time this saint wrote.  I doubt there was more "indulgence" than what I just described.  And anyway, fasting customs were always different in the West from the East (and differed "from East to East"). 

Quote
3. You reject also those priests who lawfully marry wives

Discipline, not doctrine.  St Paul allows for married bishops, but this saint would've rejected such. 

Quote
4. Ye also anoint a second time those who have been anointed in baptism by the presbyters, and say that baptisms may not be performed by simple priests but by bishops only.

The first half of that sentence is, in essence, a complaint against the separation of the sacraments of initiation in the West, which were done all at once in the East.  I'll accept that complaint, even though it's worded erroneously. 
 
Quote
5. Unwholesome unleavened bred, which manifestly indicates Jewish service or worship.

Not a serious criticism coming from a Church in which ecclesiastical architecture is modeled after and interpreted in terms of the Jewish Temple. 

Quote
6. Which is the chief of all evils, ye have begun to alter and pervert those things which were ratified by the holy synods, and say of the Holy Ghost, that he not only proceeds from the Father but also from the Son,

The first complaint that is legitimate and needs no qualification. 

Quote
7. "And many more things"

IOW, "We reserve the right to be ticked off by anything we want whenever we want."
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 12:06:46 PM by Mor Ephrem »

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #178 on: November 23, 2013, 12:13:02 PM »
From Fr. Hopko, some things that the Pope would have to do:

*He would have to confirm the original text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol of Faith and defend its use in all the churches, beginning with his own. At the very least (should some churches for pastoral reasons be permitted to keep the filioque in their creed), he would insist on an explanation that would clearly teach that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Son" only in relation to God's saving dispensation in the world. He would make certain that no Christian be tempted to believe that the Holy Spirit essentially proceeds from the Father and the Son together, and certainly not "from both as from one" (ab utroque sicut ab uno.)

*The pope would also teach that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons or hypostases, and not simply "subsistent relations" within the one God who is identified with the divine nature. And he would insist that the one true God of Christian faith is not the Holy Trinity understood as a quasi-uni-personal subject who reveals himself as Father, Son and Spirit, which is unacceptable "modalism." He would rather hold that the one God is Jesus' Father from whom the Holy Spirit proceeds who dwells in the Son, and in those who by faith and grace become sons of God through him.

*The pope would also insist that human beings can have real communion with God through God's uncreated divine energies and actions toward creatures, from the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.

*He would also officially say that the immaculate conception of Christ's mother Mary from her parents, and Mary's total glorification in the risen Christ "at the right hand of the Father," are not properly explained in the papal bulls that originally accompanied the Roman church's "ex cathedra" dogmas on these two articles of faith. The pope would explain that Mary's conception by her parents was pure and holy without a need for God extraordinarily to apply "the merits of Christ" to Joachim and Anna's sexual act of conceiving her in order to free her from "the stain of original sin." And the pope would also have to make it clear that Mary really died, and was not assumed bodily into heaven before vanquishing death by faith in her Son Jesus.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 12:13:36 PM by Jetavan »
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?
« Reply #179 on: November 23, 2013, 12:18:22 PM »
*The pope would also teach that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons or hypostases, and not simply "subsistent relations" within the one God who is identified with the divine nature. And he would insist that the one true God of Christian faith is not the Holy Trinity understood as a quasi-uni-personal subject who reveals himself as Father, Son and Spirit, which is unacceptable "modalism." He would rather hold that the one God is Jesus' Father from whom the Holy Spirit proceeds who dwells in the Son, and in those who by faith and grace become sons of God through him.

The Pope/RCC doesn't teach this already?