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Author Topic: Discussion of names of saints/patrons  (Read 11130 times) Average Rating: 0
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TonyS
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« on: February 22, 2005, 10:26:32 PM »

First question. I'm new here. Dear Father Deacon, have Eastern Catholics abandoned the Eastern tradition of having Saints' names as Christian names? Is this some sort of Latinisation of the Eastern Catholics? Why are you addressed as "Lance"? Short for something else?

I am not Deacon Lance but I am interested in the name issue. Serbs, that is Serbian Orthodox faithful do not always have Christian names. Many Slavic names of today such as Vladimir, Oleg, Yaroslav, were pagan names and have only become Christian names because their bearers have been recognized saints.

Also names like Platon and Aristotle are not unknown among Greeks.

Is there a canon of names? If so, it is closed? When, where and why did it close?

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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2005, 10:57:48 PM »

Serbs are unique among the Orthodox in that they are not required to be given a Christian name at Baptism, although most do receive one.

Every Serbian family has one patron Saint whom they are celebrate and who is a heavenly protector and intercessor for every family member. This Saint is generally the one on whose day the first member of the family/clan was baptized into Christ many years and many centuries ago.
This custom among the Serbs was started by our holy Father Sava the first Archbishop of Serbia. He did this to wean the new Christian converts away from the worship of their household gods, the lares and penates, the gods of the hearth and the threshold. The lares were the spirits of the departed ancestors who watched over the family.

Is there a Canon of names? Yes, it is the Calendar of Saints, the Church's Martyrology.

Have Eastern Catholics abandoned this custom of giving Christian names to their children? If so, why? Is it under latinisation pressure or simply a disinterest in maintaining the ways of their ancestors?


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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2005, 11:22:42 PM »

Serbs are unique among the Orthodox in that they are not required to be given a Christian name at Baptism, although most do receive one.

Every Serbian family has one patron Saint whom they are celebrate and who is a heavenly protector and intercessor for every family member.  This Saint is generally the one on whose day the first member of the family/clan was baptized into Christ many years and many centuries ago.
This custom among the Serbs was started by our holy Father Sava the first Archbishop of Serbia.  He did this to wean the new Christian converts away from the worship of their household gods, the lares and penates, the gods of the hearth and the threshold.  The lares were the spirits of the departed ancestors who watched over the family.

Is there a Canon of names?  Yes, it is the Calendar of Saints, the Church's Martyrology.

Have Eastern Catholics abandoned this custom of giving Christian names to their children?  If so, why?  Is it under latinisation pressure or simply a disinterest in maintaining the ways of their ancestors?


I am familiar with the Serbians which is why I mentined it.  One of my former seminary mates has been ordained, he is Fr. Darko.  Half, or more, of the Sebian guys I have been in seminary with did not have Christian names.

My question remains is the canon of names closed?
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2005, 11:44:01 PM »

Is this some sort of Latinisation of the Eastern Catholics?  Why are you addressed as "Lance"?

Here's a question:

If "Father Deacon Lance" (with apologies to him for the inverted commas) is, like you people say, a Roman Catholic, then why don't you address him as a Roman Catholic deacon, i.e., Reverend Mister Lance?
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2005, 11:55:16 PM »

Yes, basically the "canon" of Christian names is closed.

For example, Saints Boris and Gleb were bapised as Romanos and David and NOT as Boris and Gleb.

Saint Vladimir and his grandmother Olga mark the transition of pagan Rus' to Christian Rus'. In Baptism Vladimir became Basil and Olga had already become Helena when she was baptized in Constantinople in her old age. But obviously their old pagan names continued to be used at this period and eventually they were even glorified as Saints of the Church with these names -although the Services for them oscillate between both names.

At a very early time it had been decided that Christians must bear the names of Christian Saints. When this settled into a definite requirement is obscure - as obscure as trying to explain the origins of the monastic garments of Orthodox monks and nuns.

It is no great pity that Christians must take on the name of a Christian Saint at Baptism. We need all the heavenly help we can get to persevere in our race for salvation and a Saint up above is a great benefit in one's spiritual life, along with an Angel Guardian. The choice of names runs into thousands :-)
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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2005, 12:01:17 AM »



Here's a question:

If "Father Deacon Lance" (with apologies to him for the inverted commas) is, like you people say, a Roman Catholic, then why don't you address him as a Roman Catholic deacon, i.e., Reverend Mister Lance?

I've never heard a Catholic deacon addressed like that.

Greek bishops are addressed in Greek as "Very Reverend Mister (Kyrios) Christodoulos" and in Greek newspapers this leads to some weird English terminology - "At a session of the Greek Synod Mister Christodoulos, the Archbishop of Athens, reprimanded Mister Panteleimonos for being photographed in bed with a woman of the streets."
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2005, 12:06:00 AM »

We need all the heavenly help we can get to persevere in our race for salvation and a Saint up above is a great benefit in one's spiritual life, along with an Angel Guardian. The choice of names runs into thousands :-)

Thank you. I know this. I also know that in the prayerbook (at least in the Russian tradition) one prays to the saint whose name one bears. Yet, as you notd, Boris and Gleb and Vladimir and Olga and plenty of others took Christian names yet eventually their pagan names became Christian. If the Church still canonizes/elevates saints cannot the same thing still happen?

Is Deacon Lance deprived of "heavenly help" because perhaps he does not have a saints name?
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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2005, 12:09:03 AM »

Is Deacon Lance deprived of "heavenly help" because perhaps he does not have a saints name?

Father Onuphrios Macgillicuddy says "yes".
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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 12:09:36 AM »



I've never heard a Catholic deacon addressed like that.

Greek bishops are addressed in Greek as "Very Reverend Mister (Kyrios) Christodoulos" and in Greek newspapers this leads to some weird English terminology - "At a session of the Greek Synod Mister Christodoulos, the Archbishop of Athens, reprimanded Mister Panteleimonos for being photographed in bed with a woman of the streets."

In Slovak one sees "pan biskup" and "pan farar" yet Mr. Bishop and Mr. Pastor are hardly English. The issue at hand is that Deacon Lance is a cleric of a Church. He is known to at least two posters on this board personally, I know him personally.

He should be addressed per his screen name or as he signs his posts. It seems courtesy would dictate this.
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2005, 12:10:04 AM »

If you do not have an Orthodox saint then yes, you might just have less heavenly assistance. Your patron saint is one of the advocates for you as you struggle in this life. Why in "heaven's name" would you want to deprive yourself thusly?

And LemkoRusyn--it's not the converts that are the traditionalists in my opinion. Looking around the seminary I attend I would say that most of the converts are actually pretty mellow and that the "crazy convert" is more of an online phenomenon.

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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2005, 12:12:25 AM »

If you do not have an Orthodox saint then yes, you would have less heavenly assistance. Your patron saint is one of the advocates for you as you struggle in this life.

Anastasios

"If you do not have an Orthodox saint" means an Orthodox saint's name?  Well, all those Serbs don't, they have their family patron.  Is that what is wrong with the Serbs? 

Why can't a Lance have a patron who has a different name, like the Serbs?

T
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2005, 12:12:39 AM »

He should be addressed per his screen name or as he signs his posts. It seems courtesy would dictate this.

Uniate Eastern-Rite Roman Catholics would tend to agree!
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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2005, 12:15:50 AM »

And LemkoRusyn--it's not the converts that are the traditionalists in my opinion. Looking around the seminary I attend I would say that most of the converts are actually pretty mellow and that the "crazy convert" is more of an online phenomenon.

Anastasios

Perhaps I am an online phenomenon. Only time will tell and hopefully history will absolve me Smiley

Thank God I was given a good old saint's name by my mom! Oh, and I did not change it either.

I am at a loss when I meet people who had good a good saint's name yet when s/he converted s/he was told to or allowed to pick another name. Why?
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« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2005, 12:19:27 AM »

Yet, as you notd, Boris and Gleb and Vladimir and Olga and plenty of others took Christian names yet eventually their pagan names became Christian. If the Church still canonizes/elevates saints cannot the same thing still happen?

There is no need. We have a choice of literally thousands of Christian names at Baptism. I doubt if you would find a priest willing to baptize a baby as Kolynos or Twiggy or Becks.

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Is Deacon Lance deprived of "heavenly help" because perhaps he does not have a saints name?

No, of course not, but he lacks the comfort and joy of a patron Saint, whose icon will hang in his icon corner and who is someone to emulate and whose Nameday he celebrate with his friend and family year after year.

But the point was -not to have a donnybrook with the deacon- but to ask: for what reasons have (some) Eastern Catholics not retained these customs of their Orthodox ancestors?
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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2005, 12:22:37 AM »

No, of course not, but he lacks the comfort and joy of a patron Saint, whose icon will hang in his icon corner and who is someone to emulate and whose Nameday he celebrate with his friend and family year after year.
 

But, good sir, if it is good for Serbs, why isn't it good for others?  Why can't he have a patron saint, hang the icon in the corner and have a Slava even if he wants?  Does he have to have a saint's name to do this? 
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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2005, 12:29:14 AM »

He should be addressed per his screen name or as he signs his posts. It seems courtesy would dictate this.

In every post I have addressed him as "Father Deacon." I have not been discourteous.

I don't like adding the "Lance" because I don't think that bishops or priest or deacons should have non-Christian names nor nicknames, at least not in public. It may seem chummy but it doesn't fit with the dignity bestowed at ordination and it just isn't Orthodoxy.

Btw, I believe that Pope John Paul is known as "Chuck" to his boyhood friends  -- Karol - Karl - Charles - Chuck.
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« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2005, 12:31:39 AM »



But, good sir, if it is good for Serbs, why isn't it good for others

You could ask the Pope why if it's good for Eastern clergy to have wives, why isn't it good for the Romans who have to struggle and fight with celibacy?
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2005, 12:34:58 AM »



"If you do not have an Orthodox saint" means an Orthodox saint's name? Well, all those Serbs don't, they have their family patron. Is that what is wrong with the Serbs?

Why can't a Lance have a patron who has a different name, like the Serbs?

T

Stop being so nitpicky. I was refering to people who simply don't have saints' names, like Romanians named Marius.  If Serbs have a patron for the family THEN OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVE A PATRON SAINT.

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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2005, 12:50:24 AM »

[Quote from: TonyS on Today at 11:09:36 PM
He should be addressed per his screen name or as he signs his posts.  It seems courtesy would dictate this.

Uniate Eastern-Rite Roman Catholics would tend to agree!]

Hahaha!

Lemko Rusyn:

I see you are finally coming to terms with that 'identity' problem so many of you seem to have.  Good!

Orthodoc (The Lemko Russian)
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« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2005, 12:56:26 AM »


Uniate Eastern-Rite Roman Catholics would tend to agree!]

Hahaha!

Lemko Rusyn:

I see you are finally coming to terms with that 'identity' problem so many of you seem to have. Good!

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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2005, 12:57:57 AM »



Stop being so nitpicky. I was refering to people who simply don't have saints' names, like Romanians named Marius. If Serbs have a patron for the family THEN OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVE A PATRON SAINT.

Anastasios

Marius like the cognate Mario is from Maria.
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2005, 12:58:35 AM »

You could ask the Pope why if it's good for Eastern clergy to have wives, why isn't it good for the Romans who have to struggle and fight with celibacy?

Why would I do that?
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2005, 12:59:41 AM »



Marius like the cognate Mario is from Maria. 

Our mutual acquaintance Marius told me that that is not accurate, it is from the God Mars and that it is a purely pagan name.

Anastasios
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2005, 01:00:00 AM »

In every post I have addressed him as "Father Deacon." I have not been discourteous.

I didn't say you did otherwise. I have not insinuated you have been discourteous.
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2005, 01:02:49 AM »

Our mutual acquaintance Marius told me that that is not accurate, it is from the God Mars and that it is a purely pagan name.

Anastasios

Hmmm.  I think the day of the week named after Mars in Romanian has a -t- similar to other Romance languages.  One could deduce from that Mars derivatives would have a -t- as well.  But, perhaps not.  Even better if not.  An Orthodox culture that does not require a saint's name.   

I went to school in Pitts with a Romanian GC whose name was Marius and he said it was from Maria.
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2005, 01:05:21 AM »



Our mutual acquaintance Marius told me that that is not accurate, it is from the God Mars and that it is a purely pagan name.

Anastasios

This agrees with you.

http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=marius
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2005, 01:05:40 AM »



Why would I do that?

Well, the nicest thing about emulating the Serbs is that you can drink spirits and beer all through the Fast. The rules say "no wine" and so no wine it is. But that doesn't include spirits and beer. If Father Deacon is being recommended to emulate the Serbs and take on a family Slava this is one good reason for doing so. But are there any Serbian Byzantine Catholics?  You know, I believe there are. Don't they form an apostolic exarchate ruled from Croatia?
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2005, 01:06:12 AM »



Hmmm. I think the day of the week named after Mars in Romanian has a -t- similar to other Romance languages. One could deduce from that Mars derivatives would have a -t- as well. But, perhaps not. Even better if not. An Orthodox culture that does not require a saint's name.

I went to school in Pitts with a Romanian GC whose name was Marius and he said it was from Maria.

I think you are being too categorical again by saying "An Orthodox culture that does not require a saint's name." He said that that is the only name he can think of that is pagan, that he was the only person he knew who didn't have a saint's day, and that it felt awkward. When 99.9999999% of people have a patron saint and a small minority doesn't, that hardly proves your point Tony. The fact is that the vast majority of Orthodox cultures have some form of personal saint, whether patronal or familial, and we shouldn't just chuck this tradition because it seems convenient to us now, and do so by citing the few exceptions in history.

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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2005, 01:06:39 AM »

In the Carpatho-Rusyn tradition as far as I am told by priests who could be mistaken, it is ok to drink beer during any fast.

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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2005, 01:07:35 AM »

http://www.20000-names.com/male_romanian_names.htm

Says it comes from hammer.
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« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2005, 01:10:33 AM »

The fact is that the vast majority of Orthodox cultures have some form of personal saint, whether patronal or familial, and we shouldn't just chuck this tradition because it seems convenient to us now, and do so by citing the few exceptions in history.

Anastasios

I think you are missing my point.  I have at no time suggested one not have a patron saint.  I have suggested that one does not have to have a saint's name in order to have a patron saint. 
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« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2005, 01:11:46 AM »

MARINA - this ancient name is often thought to be a variation of "Mary" but it is actually the feminine form of the Roman name "Marius." The derivation of "Marius" is uncertain; it is possibly related to Mars, the Roman god of War, or the Latin word mas, meaning strong, male. The name "Marina" is found throughout Europe, including England, Scotland, Italy, Germany, Spain, and Russia.

http://www.moonzstuff.com/ncnames-mn.html
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« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2005, 01:12:08 AM »

It appears that things are a bit boring in the Ortho world tonite, eh ?

tsk tsk,

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« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2005, 01:12:31 AM »



Hmmm. I think the day of the week named after Mars in Romanian has a -t- similar to other Romance languages. One could deduce from that Mars derivatives would have a -t- as well. But, perhaps not. Even better if not. An Orthodox culture that does not require a saint's name.

Saint Marius of Bodon. Saint Marius of Avenches. Saint Marius the friend of Saint Valentine... probably lots more. Memory is not so good. Oh, Saint Marius who was really a woman called Mary in a monastery somewhere in Turkey.
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« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2005, 01:13:34 AM »

MARINA - this ancient name is often thought to be a variation of "Mary" but it is actually the feminine form of the Roman name "Marius."  The derivation of "Marius" is uncertain; it is possibly related to Mars, the Roman god of War, or the Latin word mas, meaning strong, male.  The name "Marina" is found throughout Europe, including England, Scotland, Italy, Germany, Spain, and Russia. 

http://www.moonzstuff.com/ncnames-mn.html

Doesn't work as well.  There is a Saint Marina.

What about Mircea?  Radu? 
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« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2005, 01:14:13 AM »

One great name the Bulgarians have Plamen

it is a guy's name.

If you don't know the etymology...look here
http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=plamen     Grin
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« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2005, 01:14:48 AM »



I think you are missing my point. I have at no time suggested one not have a patron saint. I have suggested that one does not have to have a saint's name in order to have a patron saint.

OK, to some extent I missed your point. But if you are baptized or chrismated into the faith you take a patron saint. So why wouldn't you want to go by that name? And if you are born into the faith, you parents give you a name: why wouldn't they give you an Orthodox name? It just seems to me that it's an anomoly to be Orthodox and not have a patron saint whose name you use. If there are people on this forum who do not use their patron saint's name that they took upon becoming Orthodox with the blessing of their spiritual father to not do so, I will point out that I am not trying to judge you, I am more concerned with the theoretical aspects of "why."

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« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2005, 01:16:02 AM »



Saint Marius of Bodon.  Saint Marius of Avenches. Saint Marius the friend of Saint Valentine... probably lots more.  Memory is not so good.  Oh, Saint Marius who was really a woman called Mary in a monastery somewhere in Turkey.

Thanks for letting us know. I was only going on my acquaintance Marius's statement that he has no patron saint and in Romania Mariuses do not have name days.

Anastasios
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« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2005, 01:18:05 AM »

Anastasios,

Talk to the Antiochians they say they have priests who do not have Christian names. I think it is the best to have a Christian name. But, I don't think one must. Obviously obedience comes into play here, if one's jurisdiction requires it very well. I have yet to be convinced it is a universal Orthodox practice.

Anthony <- I was given that name at birth, again, Chvala Bohu!
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« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2005, 01:19:28 AM »



Thanks for letting us know. I was only going on my acquaintance Marius's statement that he has no patron saint and in Romania Mariuses do not have name days.

Anastasios

Well I have not doubt he told you that. But, look, Marius is not an uncommon name. I find it strange that among all names one so common would not have have a namesday. Don't you?
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« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2005, 01:28:07 AM »

How brilliant!  Plamen's namesday is November 8th. 

He makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire!

Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2005, 01:29:45 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Lance is not short for anything. My full name is Lance Daniel Weakland. Benjamin is my confirmation name. I am a deacon of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

My parents are Latin Catholics and I was raised as such albeit I have always had one foot in the Byzantine Church since childhood.

Lance is the anglicized version of St. Longinus who is my patron.

There is no longer any ban on Eastern Catholic Churches ordaining married men to the priesthood. The Melkites, Romanians, and Ukrainians have all ordained married men in the US. A Byzantine Catholic bishop has ordained a married man for the first time since 1929 and this was done in Rome. Hopefully soon he will ordain the second here in the US.

Can I enlighten you on anything else?

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2005, 02:48:00 AM »


Our mutual acquaintance Marius told me that that is not accurate, it is from the God Mars and that it is a purely pagan name.


If that is the case then he does indeed have a patron saint. Aris (Greek Mars) is an early christian martyr and is on the calendar. Also celebrated are the following martyr saints, Dias, Aphrodite, Athena, Artemis and Hercules Smiley. There are many more "pagan" names celebrated as you could well imagine since many martyrs had not yet been baptised but were still among the catechumate.

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« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2005, 02:59:59 AM »

Lance is the anglicized version of St. Longinus who is my patron.

My mistake, Father Deacon. I would have taken it as a shortened form of Lancelot.

Quote
There is no longer any ban on Eastern Catholic Churches ordaining married men to the priesthood. The Melkites, Romanians, and Ukrainians have all ordained married men in the US. A Byzantine Catholic bishop has ordained a married man for the first time since 1929 and this was done in Rome. Hopefully soon he will ordain the second here in the US.

From a man who works for the office of one of the US Byzantine bishops.

"Actually, the Ukrainians in the US have not yet ordained any married priests, although there are indications that they intend to do so shortly. Rumor has it that their seminary in DC has been remodeled to accomodate families. The Ukrainians in Canada have ordained; I don't believe the Slovak jurisdiction there has done so.

"My eparchy's website [Melkite] notwithstanding, it's not quite accurate to say that there was no "approval or disapproval by Rome" of the earliest Canadian ordinations. Some of the ordinands were suspended from priestly faculties for a time and there were veiled suggestions that there would be disciplinary action against the hierarch involved; for a time, an Apostolic Visitator was in put in place, effectively creating 2 opposing jurisdictional entities in Toronto and generating quite a bit of controversy among the laity there."

Also see
http://www.melkite.org/latin.htm#Married

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Igpress/CWR/CWR0397/USA.html

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« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2005, 03:19:24 AM »


Also names like Platon and Aristotle are not unknown among Greeks.


I need to check on Aristotle (Aristoteles - sorry no Greek keyboard on this computer), but I know of at least three saints Plato (Platon in Greek and Slavonic).

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« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2005, 04:37:21 AM »

One great name the Bulgarians have Plamen

it is a guy's name.

Girl's name too, in the form Plamena.

It is the Bulgarian equivalent of Seraphim, Seraphima, a fiery angel.
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« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2005, 09:19:42 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Your contact is mistaken. Bishop Basil Losten of the Ukrainian Eparchy of Stamford ordained two men to the priesthood by his own hand a couple years ago.

As for your second quote, this happened in the late 80's. Since then the CCEO was promulagted and every US Byzantine jurisdiction has ordained married men or brought married priests form Europe over to work in their eparchies. The ban is quite dead.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2005, 11:54:11 AM »

Irish Hermit has asked a valid question which got me thinking. It seems that most people that I know (including my own family) who returned from the Unia back to Holy Orthodoxy do not have the same mind set as those Orthodox who never experienced the Unia when it comes to Baptismal names.

Though both types of Orthodox are aware of the need to chose a Christian name, those with a completely Orthodox background and experience, are much more tied into 'Namesday' celebrations than those who were not. I never even knew about 'Namesdays' until I began to mingle with Orthodox who never experienced the Unia. Most, if not all, celebrated their 'Namesday' more than they even celebrated their birthday.
They can tell you all about their namesake. I was simply baptised Gregory because it was my fathers name and the old Carpatho Russian priest refused to baptise me Robert which my dad wanted because it was not Orthodox according to him. That is why in the secular world I am known as Robert Gregory but I receve Communion under the name Gregory.

Once I began to learn how important and celebrated one's 'Namesday' was, I adopted St Gregory the Theologian as my Name sake because of his love for both Orthodoxy and the theology of the church. And began to celebrate his feast as my 'Namesday'. And still do.

But, as I stated, not until I joined a small Albanian Orthodox Church within the OCA did I learn about the importance of one's 'Namesday'. This parish had a beautiful custom of presenting those whose namesday would fall in the coming week with little bags of candied almonds after Liturgy. Many would sponser the 'social hour' and have a small moleiben after Liturgy where the priest would Bless the bread and wine. Like the Serbian Slava.

Another story regarding baptismal names from my family. One of my cousins decided to have her newly born son Baptised Douglas Lindsey. When my Baba (grandmother) was told this, here is her reply in her broken english -

"DOG o las? Vat kind name DOG o las? Ven you vant him to come how you gonna call him? You gonna say -'Here DOGGIE, here DOGGIE'?" Needless to say the priest refused and the next sunday had a big sermon in Church on how people were coming to him wanting to name their kids after barnyard animals!

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« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2005, 12:00:01 PM »



Girl's name too, in the form Plamena.

It is the Bulgarian equivalent of Seraphim, Seraphima, a fiery angel.


Interesting as seraph means flame and as such Plamen is a sort of calque.  I couldn't find a St. Plamen, could you?
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« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2005, 12:02:41 PM »



I need to check on Aristotle (Aristoteles - sorry no Greek keyboard on this computer), but I know of at least three saints Plato (Platon in Greek and Slavonic).

Thanks
Aristokles (Aristokleus - as in the martyred Elder of Cyprus)

I would appreciate it if someone would check on Despina.  My understanding is that there is no St. Despina and girls with that name celebrate August 15th. 
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« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2005, 12:04:53 PM »

From a man who works for the office of one of the US Byzantine bishops.

"Actually, the Ukrainians in the US have not yet ordained any married priests, although there are indications that they intend to do so shortly. Rumor has it that their seminary in DC has been remodeled to accomodate families. The Ukrainians in Canada have ordained; I don't believe the Slovak jurisdiction there has done so.

"My eparchy's website [Melkite] notwithstanding, it's not quite accurate to say that there was no "approval or disapproval by Rome" of the earliest Canadian ordinations. Some of the ordinands were suspended from priestly faculties for a time and there were veiled suggestions that there would be disciplinary action against the hierarch involved; for a time, an Apostolic Visitator was in put in place, effectively creating 2 opposing jurisdictional entities in Toronto and generating quite a bit of controversy among the laity there."

Hermit,

Actually those words are mine, from a posting made on the Catholic Answers forum about 8 months ago.

Firstly, I don't work for the office of any of the Byzantine bishops and I don't know where you came by that impression.

Secondly, Deacon Lance is correct and I was in error with respect to the Ukrainians, Vladyka Basil did indeed ordain two priests a couple of years ago.

As to the remainder of the text, there appears to be missing text in the second paragraph (same text missing in the original post on Catholic Answers) that would make clear that the last half of the final sentence (referencing an Apostolic Visitator) referred to the Ukrainians in Canada. The information in the second paragraph is historically accurate but generally is reflective of things that occurred in the 80s as Deacon Lance indicated.  

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2005, 12:36:23 PM »

Lance is the anglicized version of St. Longinus who is my patron.


Would that be the same name as, say, Bishop Longin of the Serbian Archdiocese in America?
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« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2005, 12:57:53 PM »

Elisha,

Yes I would imagine so.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2005, 01:28:33 PM »

With do respect to the moderator, I must say this discussion has strayed a wee bit off topic and needs a new thread.

james,
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« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2005, 01:38:52 PM »

Didn't mean to usurp Nektarios' role, just wanted to give it a shot, tried my best...resume discussion!
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« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2005, 02:22:52 PM »

Grazie

james

ps- I chose Michael (St. Michael the Archangel) as my confirmation name.

I carry the middle name Edward for my father, though I can't explain the use of James, the older family members on both sides are deceased.
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« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2005, 08:18:56 PM »

Irish Hermit,

As for your second quote, this happened in the late 80's. Since then the CCEO was promulagted and every US Byzantine jurisdiction has ordained married men or brought married priests form Europe over to work in their eparchies. The ban is quite dead.

It was not in the 1980s but in 1996 that Bishop John Elya defied the "Ban" on married priests and ordained Andre St. Germain to the priesthood in the Melkite Church in the States.

If the "Ban" were dead at that time, done to death by the promulgation of the 1990 CCEO, why was there such a reaction to the 1996 ordination of a married man in the States? Why is Bishop Elya himself full of trepidation about the ordination? Why did he devote so much anxious prayer to it before proceeding?

See the Catholic World News article:
"American Melkite Bishop Ordains Married Priest"
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=3326
and
"A Quiet Revolution" on Catholic.net
http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Igpress/CWR/CWR0397/USA.html

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« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2005, 09:07:51 PM »

Sorry to all those that are disapointed in my moderating or lack thereof, but there are times when I can't get at a computer every second of the day. 
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« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2005, 09:31:42 PM »

I would appreciate it if someone would check on Despina. My understanding is that there is no St. Despina and girls with that name celebrate August 15th.

OK,TonyS.
Despina (the Greek root of which means 'divine') means "Miss" as in virgin.
August 15th - the Dormition of the Theotokos.
Another name for the Blessed Virgin.
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« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2005, 09:53:42 PM »

Stop apologizing, nobodie is purfect...on earth that is.

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« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2005, 10:01:01 PM »

It was not in the 1980s but in 1996 that Bishop John Elya defied the "Ban" on married priests and ordained Andre St. Germain to the priesthood in the Melkite Church in the States.

If the "Ban" were dead at that time, done to death by the promulgation of the 1990 CCEO, why was there such a reaction to the 1996 ordination of a married man in the States? Why is Bishop Elya himself full of trepidation about the ordination? Why did he devote so much anxious prayer to it before proceeding?

See the Catholic World News article:
"American Melkite Bishop Ordains Married Priest"
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=3326
and
"A Quiet Revolution" on Catholic.net
http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Igpress/CWR/CWR0397/USA.html

Hermit,

You are correct that Abouna Andre's ordiantion was in 1996 - the ordination of 2 Melkite priests in Canada in the 1980s was the point referenced in the paragraph that you initially quoted.

As to the reaction - the CWNews story said that Sayednha John's act was "certain to raise eyebrows among Catholic Church officials in the United States" - hardly a descriptor of upheaval, but not to be unanticipated siince it had been about 70 years since it had last been accomplished under color of canonical legality. Nor does the piece by Mr. Boles in your second link provide any indication of incredible public, clerical, or hierarchical reaction.  In fact, the Vatican official quoted there speaks non-commitally about the Bishop's decision and action and it is noted in the article that the Vatican expressed neither approval nor disapproval.

Bishop John's personal trepidation at being the first to take this step and his prayerfulness in doing so are to me indicators of the man himself. I have known Sayednha John for probably 35 years; he was a humble and prayerful priest, he is the same man when garbed in episcopal vesture.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2005, 12:56:39 AM »



OK,TonyS.
Despina (the Greek root of which means 'divine') means "Miss" as in virgin.
August 15th - the Dormition of the Theotokos.
Another name for the Blessed Virgin.


Thanks!  Obviously in some traditional Orthodox lands names are used that are not saints names.  The people are not deprived of having a patron saint due to this.

Despina is the feminine of despotis IIRC.  It is also used in the liturgy "Tes Panagias...Despinis...."  The English used there is "Lady."
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« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2005, 02:11:35 AM »

Women called Despina are named for Mary the Mother of God.

It is the same for boys named Panagiotis (the All-Holy) - they also are named for Mary the All-Holy Mother of God.

They celebrate their nameday on 15 August.

Some boys and girls are name Kyriakos and Kyriaki - after the Lord.

Some boys are name Photios - after the Feast of Lights, the Lord's Baptism.

All of these names and some others are directly connected with the Lord or His holy Mother.

You should be able to see at once that they are in a quite different category to non-Christian names such as Pansy and Whitehall and Madison and Ashleyloo.

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« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2005, 02:24:27 AM »

So, there is no reason an Orthodox male can't be Dominic, from Dominus, Lord.
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« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2005, 03:48:02 AM »

So, there is no reason an Orthodox male can't be Dominic, from Dominus, Lord.
I don't see why not. There are already Saints who have a cognate form of Dominus -Saint Domna, Saint Domnin, etc. You'd have to check it with your priest and with the godparents.
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« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2005, 01:26:02 AM »

So, there is no reason an Orthodox male can't be Dominic, from Dominus, Lord.

I found an ancient Irish Saint Dominic from the early centuries "when we were one."


Celtic and Old English Saints     13 February

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
* St. Modomnoc O'Neil
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=




St. Modomnoc O'Neil, Bishop
(Domnoc, Dominic, Modomnock)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Died c. 550. Modomnoc, descended of the Irish royal line of O'Neil, had
to leave Ireland to train for the priesthood, since he was a student
before the creation of the great Irish monasteries. His name is most
likely to have been Dom or Donogh but the Celtic saints were so tenderly
loved that Mo (meaning "my", "little" and "dear") were very often
added to the names, which completely altered their appearance.
Another disciple from Ireland much loved by St.David was originally
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how one day Modomnoc was working with another monk making a road, when
he had occasion to rebuke him for some matter. The other monk was seized
with anger and took up a crowbar, but before he could bring it down on
Modomnoc, SaintDavid, who was witness to the incident, stayed his arm by
his spiritual powers and it remained paralysed.

Modomnoc was given charge of the bees and he loved it. And so did
everyone else--they all loved honey, but few like taking charge of the
hives. Modomnoc liked the bees almost more than he liked their honey. He
cared for them tenderly, keeping them in straw skeps in a special
sheltered corner of the garden, where he planted the kinds of flowers
best loved by the bees.

Every time they swarmed, he captured the swarm very gently and lovingly
and set up yet another hive. He talked to the bees as he worked among
them and they buzzed around his head in clouds as if they were
responding. And, of course, they never stung him.

At the end of summer, they gave him much honey, so much that Modomnoc
needed help carrying it all inside. The monks never ran out of honey for
their meals or making mead to drink. The good Modomnoc thanked God for
this, and he also thanked the bees. He would walk among the skeps in the
evening and talk to them, and the bees, for their part, would crowd out
to meet him. All the other monks carefully avoided that corner of the
monastery garden because they were
afraid of being stung.

As well as thanking the bees, Modomnoc did everything he could to care
for them in cold and storm. Soon his years of study ended, and Modomnoc
had to return to Ireland to begin his priestly ministry. While he was
glad to be returning home, he knew he would be lonely for his bees. On
the day of his departure, he said good-bye to the Abbot, the monks, and
his fellow students. Then he went down to the garden to bid farewell to
his bees.

They came out in the hundreds of thousands in answer to his voice and
never was there such a buzzing and excitement among the rows and rows of
hives. The monks stood at a distance watching the commotion in wonder,
"You'd think the bees knew," they said. "You'd think they knew that
Modomnoc was going away."

Modomnoc resolutely turned and went down to the shore and embarked the
ship. When they were about three miles from the shore, Modomnoc saw what
looked like a little black cloud in the sky in the direction of the
Welsh coast. He watched it curiously and as it approached nearer, he saw
to his amazement that it was a swarm of bees that came nearer and nearer
until finally it settled on the edge of the boat near him. It was a
gigantic swarm--all the bees from all the hives, in fact. The
bees had followed him!

This time Modomnoc did not praise his friends. "How foolish of you," he
scolded them, "you do not belong to me but to the monastery! How do you
suppose the monks can do without honey, or mead? Go back at once, you
foolish creatures!" But if the bees understood what he said, they did
not obey him. They settled down on the boat with a sleepy kind of
murmur, and there they stayed. The sailors did not like it one bit and
asked Modomnoc what he intended to do.

He told them to turn the boat back for Wales. It was already too far for
the bees to fly back, even if they wanted to obey him. He could not
allow his little friends to suffer for their foolishness. But the wind
was blowing the boat to Ireland and when they turned back, the sail was
useless. The sailors had to furl it and row back to the Welsh coast.
They did it with very bad grace, but they were too much afraid of the
bees to do anything else.

Saint David and the monks were very surprised to see Modomnoc coming
back and looking rather ashamed. He told them what had happened. The
moment the boat had touched land again, the bees had made straight for
their hives and settled down contentedly again. "Wait until tomorrow,"
advised the abbot, "but don't say farewell to the bees again. They will
be over the parting by then."

Next morning, the boat was again in readiness for Modomnoc and this time
he left hurriedly without any fuss of farewell. But when they were about
three miles from the shore, he was dismayed to see again the little
black cloud rising up over the Welsh coast. Everyone recognised the
situation and the sailors turned back to shore immediately.

Once more the shamefaced Modomnoc had to seek out David and tell his
story. "What am I to do?" he pleaded. "I must go home. The bees won't
let me go without them. I can't deprive you of them. They are so useful
to the monastery."

David said, "Modomnoc, I give you the bees. Take them with my blessing.
I am sure they would not thrive without you. Take them. We'll get other
bees later on for the monastery."

The abbot went down to the boat and told the sailors the same story. "If
the bees follow Modomnoc for the third time, take them to Ireland with
him and my blessing." But it took a long time and a great deal of
talking to get the sailors to agree to this. They did not care who had
the bees as long as they weren't in their boat.

The abbot assured the sailors that the bees would give no trouble as
long as Modomnoc was onboard. The sailors asked, if that were so, why
the bees did not obey Modomnoc's command to return to the monastery.
After much back and forth, the sailors were finally persuaded into
starting out again.

For the third time the boat set sail, Modomnoc praying hard that the
bees would have the sense to stay in their pleasant garden rather than
risking their lives at sea. For the third time he saw the little black
cloud rising up in the distance, approaching nearer and nearer until he
saw it was the same swarm of bees again. It settled on the boat once
more. This time it did not turn back. Modomnoc coaxed his faithful
friends into a sheltered corner of the boat, where they remained quietly
throughout the journey, much to the sailors' relief.

When he landed in Ireland, he set up a church at a place called Bremore,
near Balbriggan, in County Dublin, and here he established the bees in a
happy garden just like the one they had in Wales. The place is known to
this day as "the Church of the Beekeeper."

He became a hermit at Tibberaghny in County Kilkenny and some say he was
later consecrated Bishop of Ossory(Benedictines, Curtayne).

Troparion of St Modomnock tone 4
Pomp and splendour held no attraction for thee, O Father Modomnock./ By
leaving the glitter of the world, thou didst freely embrace thy poverty
with the Waterman,/ praying for the salvation of all faithful souls.

Kontakion of St Modomnock tone 7
Retiring from the company of men,/ thou didst serve God in solitude, O
Father Modomnock,/ and thy Father, seeing thy virtue in secret,/
rewarded thee openly./ Therefore we glorify thy name/ and praise and
bless thy righteous memory.



These Lives are archived at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints
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« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2005, 10:03:46 PM »

If there are people on this forum who do not use their patron saint's name that they took upon becoming Orthodox with the blessing of their spiritual father to not do so, I will point out that I am not trying to judge you, I am more concerned with the theoretical aspects of "why."
Quite simply, so my parents would refrain from murdering me in my sleep... Wink
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« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2005, 10:45:34 PM »

reading some of the posts here i was a little offended (as a serb). all these christian names that everyone talks about-were they always christian names??? NO-they became christian names with the introduction of Chrisitiany!!! otherwise what did we call each other before Christianity came along - hey you!! have we all been christians since the beggining of cultures??? history didn't start from our conversion to Orthodoxy, it existed long before then. i'm glad serbs have remained faithful to all what we were and are, ie, we were once pagans (with a history and future) and we are now Orthodox (with a history and future).

ps the only time i have heard a priest refuse to Christen a baby with a particular name was when the parents wanted the name Sasa (Sasha) which is the nickname for Aleksandar. the priest informed the family he would Christen him Aleksandar but they could call him Sasa - and that's how it was.
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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2005, 12:22:17 AM »

That's interesting! I know a Serbian Orthodox priest named Sasa Radoicic. When I asked him once if Sasa was short for Aleksandar he said, No, that was his full baptismal name. Then I made a small mistake and asked him if maybe he were Macedonian!! He looked quite startled at the thought and assured me tht he was a true Serb.

Btw, nobody is having a crack at the Serbs for having baptismal names which are not the names of Christian Saints. That's been a Serbian custom since Saint Sava first preached Christianity. There is nothing wrong with it at all. Zivela Srbija!
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« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2005, 12:58:42 AM »


I don't see why not.  There are already Saints who have a cognate form of Dominus -Saint Domna, Saint Domnin, etc. You'd have to check it with your priest and with the godparents.

Can you tell me when they are commemorated on the calendar of the Russian or Greek Church?  And, what would the godparents have to do with this?
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« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2005, 01:04:40 AM »

I found an ancient Irish Saint Dominic from the early centuries "when we were one."

There are probably thousands of saints from the time "when we were one" that are not on the Church calendar of any national Orthodox Church.  Kevin of Glendalough comes to mind.  Apparently some clergy will allow boys to be baptized Kevin others will not.  As JHP17 says these names became sanctified.  I do not agree that the canon of names is closed as I believe it is yet another way to sanctify the world and culture we life in.  New saints are canonized and new names become Christian names.  Some local practices allow names that are not on the calendar or may not be explicitly Christian. 

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« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2005, 02:10:28 AM »

Some local practices allow names that are not on the calendar or may not be explicitly Christian.

With the notable exception of the Serbs I cannot imagine any Orthodox bishop allowing his clergy to baptize people with non-Christian names. So that effectively means that the "canon' of names is closed. Of course the solution is to take your converts to the Serbian Church where at Baptism they will be asked to nominate a Saint for their Krsna Slava (Baptismal Slava) but be able to be baptized as Kolynos or Thor or Woden or Francis. Smiley
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« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2005, 02:29:54 AM »

Can you tell me when they are commemorated on the calendar of the Russian or Greek Church?

As part of the heritage of Saint John of San Francisco and his work with the restoration of the Western Rite in France, the Russian Church Abroad is way ahead of other Orthodox Churches in accepting a restoration of the veneration of the ancient Saints of pre-schism Orthodox Europe.

Fr Geoffrey Ready of Bangor Ireland (ROCA) has published a fairly full Calendar of Irish and Old English Saints (but it is offline at this time):

Orthodox Ireland Saints
http://www.orthodoxireland.com/saints/

Fr Andrew Philips, Felixstowe, UK (ROCA) has a fuller list which encompasses all the Saints of Western Europe:

An Alphabetical Index of the Saints of the West
http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/saintsa.htm

A ROCA monk puts out a daily email with the Lives of the Celtic Saints:

Celtic & Old English Saints
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints/


Quote
And, what would the godparents have to do with this?

They choose the baptismal name.
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« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2005, 05:35:19 AM »

All,

I wish I'd seen this thread earlier, but I was on holiday in Snowdonia last week and totally cut off from the modern world. Can I just clarify something about Romanian practice? It is very common to find Romanians with names that are not saint's names. My godmother, for instance, is called Codruta (lit. little forest). I know of no saint Trajan, but I know loads of Traians. Vlad (which is not short for Vladimir in Romanian) is also, to my, my wife's and my godmother's knowledge, the name of no saint but I know loads of those. There are also ancient names like Mircea. No baptised Romanian is without a patron saint, however. Usually if you meet a person known as, say, Traian, you'll find that they were baptised as, for example, Traian-Ioan. Ioan (John) is clearly a saint's name. In effect, the saint's name Christianises the non-saint's name. What's wrong or un-Orthodox about this practice? Of course, if a priest was baptised Traian-Ioan, they would most likely be known as Parinte Ioan, rather than Parinte Traian(-Ioan). I've never come across a priest who doesn't use a normal saint's name.

The only Orthodox I've ever come across with a problem with this practice have been from traditions, like the Greek one, who are overly rigid with their requirements that all a child's baptismal names be saints names. This is not Orthodoxy, but an unbending adherence to local custom. We, for instance, were worshipping at a Greek parish when my son was born. We wanted to baptise him William-Stefan Vlad, but the priest refused point blank because William (a family name on my side) wasn't a saint's name. (I actually found out later from the above mentioned Fr. Andrew Phillips that William is indeed a perfectly good saint's name, but that's an aside).
My son is now known as William but receives the Eucharist as Stefan Vlad (Vlad, apparently sounded close enough to Vladimir for our priest), though we will change this once I find a priest to agree to this (which Fr. Andrew assures me is easy, but unfortunately we don't live close to Felixstowe).

On the issue of Marius, whether the name originally came from Maria or Mars (Tuesday is Marti, March is Martie and Mars is Marte in Romanian, for whoever raised the issue of the t in such words, so Mars is an unlikely origin for the name), is surely irrelevent. Marius is nowadays considered as the masculine equivalent to Maria, whatever its original origin. It's a very common Romanian Christian name (in every sense) and I've yet to find a single one who doesn't celebrate their name day with Maria. It sounds as though the Marius known to at least one of the posters here is unfortunately ignorant of when his nameday is, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have one.

James
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« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2005, 06:37:40 AM »

called Codruta (lit. little forest).

There was young boy martyred in Greece during the time of the Roman persecutions. He is known as Saint Codrutos because his parents tried to save his life by making him run away into the forest.

Quote
I know of no saint Trajan, but I know loads of Traians.

There is a Saint Trajan of Macedonia

Quote
Vlad (which is not short for Vladimir in Romanian) is also, to my, my wife's and my godmother's knowledge, the name of no saint but I know loads of those.

If this cannot be derived from the Slavonic "vlad" for ruler, prince, then I cannot see a connection either.

Quote
There are also ancient names like Mircea.

This is derived from a Slavonic element. "Mir" - peace. Could we look on it as equivalent to Ireneos?


Quote
the above mentioned Fr. Andrew Phillips that William is indeed a perfectly good saint's name, but that's an aside).

Got to be careful with the Williams, even those who are pre-schism.

William of Dijon, who died just before the Schism preached with great enthusiasm all over France and Italy in favour of papal supremacy over the entire Church.   Sad

William of Gellone who died in the early 9th century was close to Charlemagne and, as you can imagine, an advocate of the filioque.   Sad

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« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2005, 08:42:16 AM »

I reallly, really love that story of St. Modomnoc. Sometimes the saints lives seem to verge into the area of dramatization and hyperbole, but with stories like this (and the fact that a church exists that is still called the bee-keepers) I can't doubt that such a simple  friend of the bees lived the life that the story tells. St. Modomnoc, pray for us, and for the wellbeing of all earthly creatures.

This isn't directly related to Orthodox saints, but I really love this link for having A LOT of names and their origins and cultural variants--very useful in at least determining if a name was ever connected to a saint, pre-- or post-schism.

http://www.behindthename.com/

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« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2005, 10:03:17 AM »



There was young boy martyred in Greece during the time of the Roman persecutions. He is known as Saint Codrutos because his parents tried to save his life by making him run away into the forest.



There is a Saint Trajan of Macedonia



If this cannot be derived from the Slavonic "vlad" for ruler, prince, then I cannot see a connection either.



This is derived from a Slavonic element. "Mir" - peace. Could we look on it as equivalent to Ireneos?




Got to be careful with the Williams, even those who are pre-schism.

William of Dijon, who died just before the Schism preached with great enthusiasm all over France and Italy in favour of papal supremacy over the entire Church. Sad

William of Gellone who died in the early 9th century was close to Charlemagne and, as you can imagine, an advocate of the filioque. Sad



Irish Hermit,

Thanks for the interesting information. My godmother's saint's name is not Codruta, though, so she certainly doesn't have St. Codrutos as her patron. I realise that there are issues with some of the pre-Schism St. Williams, but what do you think of using the common Romanian practice of doubling non-saint's names with a saint's name? Would you have seen something un-Orthodox in my son's name William-Stefan? His patron saint, after all is Stefan cel Mare (in translation, the Right Believing Prince Stephen the Great and Holy) whose icon I use as my avatar. Personally, I found the Greek priest's attitude to be placing Greek customs as more important than those of another Orthodox church. I can assure you that a Romanian priest would have had no problem baptising my son William-Stefan.

As for Mircea, if you're going to say that it's derived from the slavic root 'Mir' (which may be, I don't know) and therefore is a good saints name, then there are loads of Germanic (mostly Saxon) saints whose names start with 'Will', which is surely an equivalent situation for William, and if you're going to go down as far as Mir meaning peace, then surely William's meaning of 'protector' is likely to be found in at least one saint's name. I really don't see the issue here. I agree that all baptised Orthodox Christians (with the exception of the Serbs) should have at least one saint's name and that should be of their patron saint, but I do not agree that they should have no other names that aren't saints' names. The sort of attitude displayed by that Greek priest struck me as pharisaical, to be frank, and I'm glad he wasn't the first Orthodox priest I met - had he been, I doubt I would ever have even begun the catechumenate.

James
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« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2005, 09:00:30 PM »


I found the Greek priest's attitude to be placing Greek customs as more important than those of another Orthodox church. I can assure you that a Romanian priest would have had no problem baptising my son William-Stefan.

I think that each Orthodox Church should retain its traditions and respect their integrity, and so just as it would be wrong for a Greek priest to import Romanian customs into a Greek parish, so it would be wrong for a Romanian priest to import Greek customs into a Romanian parish.

One should not walk into a Romanian church and insist that one wanted to hear only Greek music or Slavonic music. Or insist that the priest has to follow the fasting customs of another Church, either stricter or laxer than his own traditional ones.

The alternative will be to create some sort of homogenized Orthodoxy - a kind of global MacDonalds Orthodoxy in which all local customs have been suppressd in favour of a bland international oneness... God deliver us from such!

Vive la difference!
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« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2005, 09:13:52 PM »



 The sort of attitude displayed by that Greek priest struck me as pharisaical, to be frank, and I'm glad he wasn't the first Orthodox priest I met - had he been, I doubt I would ever have even begun the catechumenate. James

Dear James, Don't be too hard on him! He was upholding his Church's tradition after all.

More than likely you would be hard pressed to find a Russian priest who would baptize a baby with more than one name. It's considered "greedy" to have more than one Christian name and one patron saint! And then to top it off, he'd turn your own name into a patronymic and write the baby's name in the Metrical Registry - "Stefan Iakovitch Morrison" (or whatever your surname is.) Smiley



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« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2005, 04:56:48 AM »



Dear James, Don't be too hard on him! He was upholding his Church's tradition after all.

More than likely you would be hard pressed to find a Russian priest who would baptize a baby with more than one name. It's considered "greedy" to have more than one Christian name and one patron saint! And then to top it off, he'd turn your own name into a patronymic and write the baby's name in the Metrical Registry - "Stefan Iakovitch Morrison" (or whatever your surname is.) Smiley





Irish Hermit,

Well, all I can say is that every Romanian who was at the baptism was appalled by the priest's attitude. He may have been Greek Orthodox but we are not and he knew this perfectly well (when the parish secretary was filling out their records and asked whether our religion should be noted as Greek Orthodox he said, 'No, just Orthodox, the nationality doesn't matter' - strange that!). We attended that parish because it was the only one we could get to and we would obviously have rather gone to a Romanian parish if one had been available (for one thing we'd have been able to understand the liturgy). Nobody, apart from some guests, at the baptism was Greek Orthodox so why should we have been forced to conform to Greek customs when our own ones are equally Orthodox? This is the sort of ethnic ghetto mentality that you often find in the west that does, in my opinion, a great deal of harm to the Orthodox witness. The Romanians (in Romania) had no problem with my baptismal names, and I have three - I still have only one patron saint. It doesn't matter how many names a Romanian has (though more than two is something I've never seen), they still only have one patron saint. Surely you don't think you have to have a patron for every single name?

I simply cannot imagine any Romanian priest that I have ever met having had a problem with similarly foreign Orthodox customs, and certainly can't imagine them Romanianising my name in the way the Greek one Hellenised it when I take the Eucharist. They call me James, not Iacob - the Greeks called me Iacobos. If Romanians in Romania (and believe me, my names look really weird to them) have no problem with my name, why should Greek ones in England? I've even heard of Greek priests here refusing to baptise children with names like Edmund despite the fact that St. Edmund the Martyr was a perfectly Orthodox pre-Schism saint - he simply wasn't Greek enough! I have not had good experiences with the Greek church (perhaps you can tell) and I'd now rather travel further to go to a non-Greek church than go to the nearer Greek one. I've heard of but never experienced such overly ethnic parishes in other churches it's true, but in England at least, the Greeks seem to be by far the worst.

James

P.S.

My surname is Meyer-Bejdl (rhymes with higher-ladle) - just imagine the problems that causes for everyone (Greek, Romanian, English - it really makes no difference). Wink I hope you don't think I'm getting annoyed with you (I'm not) or that I look down on Greeks in general. I've known a large number of very good Orthodox Greeks and most at that parish were warm and accepting of us 'foreigners'. I just have a problem with any Orthodox Christian who puts ethnicity ahead of their faith.
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« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2005, 06:53:20 PM »

Well, all I can say is that every Romanian who was at the baptism was appalled by the priest's attitude.

Dear James,

I cannot comment on the priest's attitude since I was not present.

In general I believe that priests should try to maintain the traditions of their particular Church. Let me give an example. Different Churches have different fasting customs and this can cause confusion. I visited a Serbian monastery where there were quests from all jurisdictions. Preparation for communion had caused confusion in the past since some guests from the Antiochian Church fasted only from midnight, some from the Greek Church fasted for two days and Serbs fasted for one week. These conflicting practices were fine back in their home parishes but at the monastery they caused stress among those preparaing for communion, especially at meal times.

So the local bishop ruled that when visiting the Serbian monastery all guests must observe Serbian communion customs.

Your priest may have received a similar direction from his bishop about baptismal names for Baptisms performed in his church. He may have had a tough encounter the day before with Greek parishioners wanting to baptize their baby with two names and he had had to refuse.... who knows really the many pressures which he was under at the time.

I am not discounting the need for some flexibility in pastoral situations. It is inescapable in the mishmash of overlapping jurisdictions in the West.
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« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2005, 09:30:07 PM »

I thnk in some cases "rehabilitated" names of pre-schism saints prove an issue for some as they are not commemorated on the calendar of any national Church. 

Here is a question for Irish Hermit.  Do you know if St. Expedite/Expeditus is commemorated anywhere in the East?  I understand he has been somewhat removed from the Roman calendar. 
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« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2005, 10:18:20 PM »

Here is a question for Irish Hermit. Do you know if St. Expedite/Expeditus is commemorated anywhere in the East?

I cannot locate him or her in any Russian Menologion.

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I understand he has been somewhat removed from the Roman calendar.
Didn't they decide that he or she had never existed and the name was removed in the 1969 re-make of the Roman Martyrology? Upset a few people who prayed to her/him as the Saint of Rapid Solutions.
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« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2005, 10:26:54 PM »

Didn't they decide that he or she had never existed and the name was removed in the 1969 re-make of the Roman Martyrology?  Upset a few people who prayed to her/him as the Saint of Rapid Solutions.
Yes.  But IIRC that was the fate of saints such as George the Great-Martyr.  Nicholas was removed as an obligatory feast IIRC.

I have looked for Expedite as well in the Russian sources and I can't find him either.
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« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2005, 10:27:35 PM »

St. Expedite still has quite a following in some RC parts of the world.
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« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2005, 10:28:16 PM »

I simply cannot imagine any Romanian priest that I have ever met having had a problem with similarly foreign Orthodox customs

The local Romanian parish has had a new priest from Romania for the last five years, young and charming and highly educated, but all the same he categorically refuses to allow the mother to be present at the Baptism of her children.

It's caused some strife, but he won't back away from it. He sees it as both a legitimate custom to be maintained and as a strengthening of the responsibility of the role of the godparents in the child's life.

Now that's an attitude which may also have kept you out of the catechumenate. The Romanian clergy may be easy going about names but this one is tough about: No mothers at Baptisms!



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« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2005, 04:36:09 AM »



The local Romanian parish has had a new priest from Romania for the last five years, young and charming and highly educated, but all the same he categorically refuses to allow the mother to be present at the Baptism of her children.

It's caused some strife, but he won't back away from it. He sees it as both a legitimate custom to be maintained and as a strengthening of the responsibility of the role of the godparents in the child's life.

Now that's an attitude which may also have kept you out of the catechumenate. The Romanian clergy may be easy going about names but this one is tough about: No mothers at Baptisms!





Irish Hermit,

Alright, you've convinced me that there are similarly rigid Romanian priests in the west to those Greek priests I have met. I don't agree with either of them. In the west there simply are too many Orthodox who have to attend parishes of a national church to which they do not belong to be so rigidly attached to local customs, in my opinion. Ironically, though, it seems that the priests who are most unbending on such local customs seem to be precisely those of ethnic churches in the west, rather than those in their home countries. I feel that when I visit a Greek or Russian church for their Liturgy I should accept it and their customs as I find them, but I think there is a difference between that and the situation with a baptism such as I described. I'm happy, though, to agree to disagree on this. In all honesty, I don't think that these sorts of issues will ever be solved here in Britain until we have a single British Orthodox jurisdiction, if indeed we ever do achieve this.

On the actual Romanian custom you mention, I must say that I've never come across it in Romania. I've never heard of a baptism in Bucovina (the region I lived and worked in) where the mother wasn't present, so I'm guessing that it's one of the really local traditions within the church. There are a lot of these. Moldovan customs (Bucovina is in Moldova) can be quite different from Transylvanian ones and I guess from Wallachian ones, too. Certainly, from discussing things with my Transylvanian godmother, I know that there are quite marked differences in the wedding and funeral customs. In any case, my issue is not with the customs themselves but with being unbending about things that are not essential to Orthodoxy - some things must be adhered to by all Orthodox, others need not. Local customs, in my opinion, whilst wonderful and valuable fall in the latter category.

James
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« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2005, 03:38:09 PM »

As a native-born Serb I would like to comment a little more about St. Sava. First of all, he did not originally introduce Christianity to the Serbian lands but rather promoted correct orthopraxis over pagan customs (among other things he did for the church). I am not sure that it was his doing to introduce the custom of allowing ethnic, non-saints' names as one's baptismal name. I have read that his father, the Serbian prince Stefan Nemanya (later a monk, now St. Symeon the Myhrr Gusher), resisted the wish of Greek priests that Serbs be given Greek (supposedly Christian) names.

The Slava or family patron saint's day observation is a right pious custom (my family's Slava is St. Michael the Archangel, celebrated on 21 November according to the Julian calendar), and I wish that it would spread outside the Serbian church.

Many priests do insist that saints' names be given as baptismal names, but it is true that

1) some don't. In the Serbian church as said before, this holds true.

2) many names you may think are not saints' names are, because a saint has sanctified the name through having held it (the aforementioned examples of Waldemar and Helga being baptized under other names, but then being known under their slavified old names and becoming Sts. Vladimir and olga, or St. Alban, who originally being a pagan, was converted to Christianity, or even, in a similar situation, a St. Mohamed!), or because they are forgotten or lesser known Western saints (eg. St. Edward the Martyr, St. Martin of Tours, there's even a St. Elvis!).

I will not purport to speak for the Church, but would question whether it should really be a requirement to give a child a name already borne by a known saint. My reasons for saying this are multiple:

1) In the Epistles of the Apostles, there is constant mention of people by Greco-Latin names, that don't sound at all like they have been
changed on baptism (eg. Priscilla and Aquilla, I think there may even have been some "saints" with the names of Greco-Roman deities). Of course they might have taken other names upon baptism, but if so, St. Paul doesn't use them.

2) St. Conon, a pagan, was supposed to have been baptised by the Archangel Michael himself. I haven't heard of the Archangel giving him a new name (though again I may just be ignorant). Was there perhaps another St. Conon before him?

3) My first spiritual father, a Greek, did not think it necessary to give saints' names on baptism. Then again, he tended to be on the liberal side.

4) Not doing so is accepted custom in at least the Serbian church. Of course, we have the Slava custom. So why couldn't, for example, a not Serb, eg. a Beverly Smith be baptized in a non-Serbian church, as long as it's Orthodox, as Beverly, but take a saint she appreciates, for example, St. Mary of Egypt, and venerate that saint on the appropriate feast day as a Slava?

5) How many names could the first converts to Christianity have had? If they had been forced to change their names, the pool of available ones would be rather small and Orthodox all over the world would basically have to have a name present in the ancient world.

6) If someone who is baptized under a name not borne by a saint becomes a saint, their name will become yet another saint's name.



 
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« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2006, 11:37:49 AM »

Us Carpatho Russians have a way of getting around the name problem. We let you keep your non-saint first name and give you a saintly middle name. For Example, my mather is Robert and my mother is Nancy. They were both baptized with those names and continue to use them to this day. However, my father's middle name is Nicholas and my mother's middle name is Ann. So they celebrate St. Nicholas and St. Ann as their patron Saints. Simple solution to a big problem for us Carpatho Russians. (I got 2 saint names tho, so I'm all good  Grin )
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« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2006, 12:59:25 PM »

The Slava or family patron saint's day observation is a right pious custom (my family's Slava is St. Michael the Archangel, celebrated on 21 November according to the Julian calendar), and I wish that it would spread outside the Serbian church.

Simple, Just remember on what day you were baptised, and keep it as a rememberance, then borrow the Krna Slava Tradition
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« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2006, 01:01:00 PM »

so If "I" get martyred, I'll be Saint Sherman instead of Saint Photios of Middle Island
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« Reply #91 on: January 13, 2006, 06:35:35 AM »

Right.

That is how the list of names for the Saints expands and allows national names to eneter the  martyrology of the church.

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« Reply #92 on: January 13, 2006, 10:28:01 AM »

Christ Is Born!

Raised a Roman Catholic with the name "Ronald" always made me feel out of place in our parish school.  One day the Sister who was our teacher asked us about our patron saint.  When she came to me, I sadly said, "My name's not a Saint's name."  She responce was one that always made me feel good, she said, "Well if you aren't named after a saint, then it is your vocation in life to make it a saint's name."  Now I'm Orthodox and a monk, and soon to be a deacon and I still like her answer.
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