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Author Topic: Discussion of names of saints/patrons  (Read 11207 times) Average Rating: 0
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TonyS
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« on: February 22, 2005, 10:26:32 PM »

First question. I'm new here. Dear Father Deacon, have Eastern Catholics abandoned the Eastern tradition of having Saints' names as Christian names? Is this some sort of Latinisation of the Eastern Catholics? Why are you addressed as "Lance"? Short for something else?

I am not Deacon Lance but I am interested in the name issue. Serbs, that is Serbian Orthodox faithful do not always have Christian names. Many Slavic names of today such as Vladimir, Oleg, Yaroslav, were pagan names and have only become Christian names because their bearers have been recognized saints.

Also names like Platon and Aristotle are not unknown among Greeks.

Is there a canon of names? If so, it is closed? When, where and why did it close?

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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2005, 10:57:48 PM »

Serbs are unique among the Orthodox in that they are not required to be given a Christian name at Baptism, although most do receive one.

Every Serbian family has one patron Saint whom they are celebrate and who is a heavenly protector and intercessor for every family member. This Saint is generally the one on whose day the first member of the family/clan was baptized into Christ many years and many centuries ago.
This custom among the Serbs was started by our holy Father Sava the first Archbishop of Serbia. He did this to wean the new Christian converts away from the worship of their household gods, the lares and penates, the gods of the hearth and the threshold. The lares were the spirits of the departed ancestors who watched over the family.

Is there a Canon of names? Yes, it is the Calendar of Saints, the Church's Martyrology.

Have Eastern Catholics abandoned this custom of giving Christian names to their children? If so, why? Is it under latinisation pressure or simply a disinterest in maintaining the ways of their ancestors?


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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2005, 11:22:42 PM »

Serbs are unique among the Orthodox in that they are not required to be given a Christian name at Baptism, although most do receive one.

Every Serbian family has one patron Saint whom they are celebrate and who is a heavenly protector and intercessor for every family member.  This Saint is generally the one on whose day the first member of the family/clan was baptized into Christ many years and many centuries ago.
This custom among the Serbs was started by our holy Father Sava the first Archbishop of Serbia.  He did this to wean the new Christian converts away from the worship of their household gods, the lares and penates, the gods of the hearth and the threshold.  The lares were the spirits of the departed ancestors who watched over the family.

Is there a Canon of names?  Yes, it is the Calendar of Saints, the Church's Martyrology.

Have Eastern Catholics abandoned this custom of giving Christian names to their children?  If so, why?  Is it under latinisation pressure or simply a disinterest in maintaining the ways of their ancestors?


I am familiar with the Serbians which is why I mentined it.  One of my former seminary mates has been ordained, he is Fr. Darko.  Half, or more, of the Sebian guys I have been in seminary with did not have Christian names.

My question remains is the canon of names closed?
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2005, 11:44:01 PM »

Is this some sort of Latinisation of the Eastern Catholics?  Why are you addressed as "Lance"?

Here's a question:

If "Father Deacon Lance" (with apologies to him for the inverted commas) is, like you people say, a Roman Catholic, then why don't you address him as a Roman Catholic deacon, i.e., Reverend Mister Lance?
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2005, 11:55:16 PM »

Yes, basically the "canon" of Christian names is closed.

For example, Saints Boris and Gleb were bapised as Romanos and David and NOT as Boris and Gleb.

Saint Vladimir and his grandmother Olga mark the transition of pagan Rus' to Christian Rus'. In Baptism Vladimir became Basil and Olga had already become Helena when she was baptized in Constantinople in her old age. But obviously their old pagan names continued to be used at this period and eventually they were even glorified as Saints of the Church with these names -although the Services for them oscillate between both names.

At a very early time it had been decided that Christians must bear the names of Christian Saints. When this settled into a definite requirement is obscure - as obscure as trying to explain the origins of the monastic garments of Orthodox monks and nuns.

It is no great pity that Christians must take on the name of a Christian Saint at Baptism. We need all the heavenly help we can get to persevere in our race for salvation and a Saint up above is a great benefit in one's spiritual life, along with an Angel Guardian. The choice of names runs into thousands :-)
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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2005, 12:01:17 AM »



Here's a question:

If "Father Deacon Lance" (with apologies to him for the inverted commas) is, like you people say, a Roman Catholic, then why don't you address him as a Roman Catholic deacon, i.e., Reverend Mister Lance?

I've never heard a Catholic deacon addressed like that.

Greek bishops are addressed in Greek as "Very Reverend Mister (Kyrios) Christodoulos" and in Greek newspapers this leads to some weird English terminology - "At a session of the Greek Synod Mister Christodoulos, the Archbishop of Athens, reprimanded Mister Panteleimonos for being photographed in bed with a woman of the streets."
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2005, 12:06:00 AM »

We need all the heavenly help we can get to persevere in our race for salvation and a Saint up above is a great benefit in one's spiritual life, along with an Angel Guardian. The choice of names runs into thousands :-)

Thank you. I know this. I also know that in the prayerbook (at least in the Russian tradition) one prays to the saint whose name one bears. Yet, as you notd, Boris and Gleb and Vladimir and Olga and plenty of others took Christian names yet eventually their pagan names became Christian. If the Church still canonizes/elevates saints cannot the same thing still happen?

Is Deacon Lance deprived of "heavenly help" because perhaps he does not have a saints name?
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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2005, 12:09:03 AM »

Is Deacon Lance deprived of "heavenly help" because perhaps he does not have a saints name?

Father Onuphrios Macgillicuddy says "yes".
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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 12:09:36 AM »



I've never heard a Catholic deacon addressed like that.

Greek bishops are addressed in Greek as "Very Reverend Mister (Kyrios) Christodoulos" and in Greek newspapers this leads to some weird English terminology - "At a session of the Greek Synod Mister Christodoulos, the Archbishop of Athens, reprimanded Mister Panteleimonos for being photographed in bed with a woman of the streets."

In Slovak one sees "pan biskup" and "pan farar" yet Mr. Bishop and Mr. Pastor are hardly English. The issue at hand is that Deacon Lance is a cleric of a Church. He is known to at least two posters on this board personally, I know him personally.

He should be addressed per his screen name or as he signs his posts. It seems courtesy would dictate this.
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2005, 12:10:04 AM »

If you do not have an Orthodox saint then yes, you might just have less heavenly assistance. Your patron saint is one of the advocates for you as you struggle in this life. Why in "heaven's name" would you want to deprive yourself thusly?

And LemkoRusyn--it's not the converts that are the traditionalists in my opinion. Looking around the seminary I attend I would say that most of the converts are actually pretty mellow and that the "crazy convert" is more of an online phenomenon.

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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2005, 12:12:25 AM »

If you do not have an Orthodox saint then yes, you would have less heavenly assistance. Your patron saint is one of the advocates for you as you struggle in this life.

Anastasios

"If you do not have an Orthodox saint" means an Orthodox saint's name?  Well, all those Serbs don't, they have their family patron.  Is that what is wrong with the Serbs? 

Why can't a Lance have a patron who has a different name, like the Serbs?

T
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2005, 12:12:39 AM »

He should be addressed per his screen name or as he signs his posts. It seems courtesy would dictate this.

Uniate Eastern-Rite Roman Catholics would tend to agree!
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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2005, 12:15:50 AM »

And LemkoRusyn--it's not the converts that are the traditionalists in my opinion. Looking around the seminary I attend I would say that most of the converts are actually pretty mellow and that the "crazy convert" is more of an online phenomenon.

Anastasios

Perhaps I am an online phenomenon. Only time will tell and hopefully history will absolve me Smiley

Thank God I was given a good old saint's name by my mom! Oh, and I did not change it either.

I am at a loss when I meet people who had good a good saint's name yet when s/he converted s/he was told to or allowed to pick another name. Why?
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« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2005, 12:19:27 AM »

Yet, as you notd, Boris and Gleb and Vladimir and Olga and plenty of others took Christian names yet eventually their pagan names became Christian. If the Church still canonizes/elevates saints cannot the same thing still happen?

There is no need. We have a choice of literally thousands of Christian names at Baptism. I doubt if you would find a priest willing to baptize a baby as Kolynos or Twiggy or Becks.

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Is Deacon Lance deprived of "heavenly help" because perhaps he does not have a saints name?

No, of course not, but he lacks the comfort and joy of a patron Saint, whose icon will hang in his icon corner and who is someone to emulate and whose Nameday he celebrate with his friend and family year after year.

But the point was -not to have a donnybrook with the deacon- but to ask: for what reasons have (some) Eastern Catholics not retained these customs of their Orthodox ancestors?
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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2005, 12:22:37 AM »

No, of course not, but he lacks the comfort and joy of a patron Saint, whose icon will hang in his icon corner and who is someone to emulate and whose Nameday he celebrate with his friend and family year after year.
 

But, good sir, if it is good for Serbs, why isn't it good for others?  Why can't he have a patron saint, hang the icon in the corner and have a Slava even if he wants?  Does he have to have a saint's name to do this? 
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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2005, 12:29:14 AM »

He should be addressed per his screen name or as he signs his posts. It seems courtesy would dictate this.

In every post I have addressed him as "Father Deacon." I have not been discourteous.

I don't like adding the "Lance" because I don't think that bishops or priest or deacons should have non-Christian names nor nicknames, at least not in public. It may seem chummy but it doesn't fit with the dignity bestowed at ordination and it just isn't Orthodoxy.

Btw, I believe that Pope John Paul is known as "Chuck" to his boyhood friends  -- Karol - Karl - Charles - Chuck.
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« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2005, 12:31:39 AM »



But, good sir, if it is good for Serbs, why isn't it good for others

You could ask the Pope why if it's good for Eastern clergy to have wives, why isn't it good for the Romans who have to struggle and fight with celibacy?
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2005, 12:34:58 AM »



"If you do not have an Orthodox saint" means an Orthodox saint's name? Well, all those Serbs don't, they have their family patron. Is that what is wrong with the Serbs?

Why can't a Lance have a patron who has a different name, like the Serbs?

T

Stop being so nitpicky. I was refering to people who simply don't have saints' names, like Romanians named Marius.  If Serbs have a patron for the family THEN OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVE A PATRON SAINT.

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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2005, 12:50:24 AM »

[Quote from: TonyS on Today at 11:09:36 PM
He should be addressed per his screen name or as he signs his posts.  It seems courtesy would dictate this.

Uniate Eastern-Rite Roman Catholics would tend to agree!]

Hahaha!

Lemko Rusyn:

I see you are finally coming to terms with that 'identity' problem so many of you seem to have.  Good!

Orthodoc (The Lemko Russian)
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« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2005, 12:56:26 AM »


Uniate Eastern-Rite Roman Catholics would tend to agree!]

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I see you are finally coming to terms with that 'identity' problem so many of you seem to have. Good!

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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2005, 12:57:57 AM »



Stop being so nitpicky. I was refering to people who simply don't have saints' names, like Romanians named Marius. If Serbs have a patron for the family THEN OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVE A PATRON SAINT.

Anastasios

Marius like the cognate Mario is from Maria.
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2005, 12:58:35 AM »

You could ask the Pope why if it's good for Eastern clergy to have wives, why isn't it good for the Romans who have to struggle and fight with celibacy?

Why would I do that?
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2005, 12:59:41 AM »



Marius like the cognate Mario is from Maria. 

Our mutual acquaintance Marius told me that that is not accurate, it is from the God Mars and that it is a purely pagan name.

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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2005, 01:00:00 AM »

In every post I have addressed him as "Father Deacon." I have not been discourteous.

I didn't say you did otherwise. I have not insinuated you have been discourteous.
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2005, 01:02:49 AM »

Our mutual acquaintance Marius told me that that is not accurate, it is from the God Mars and that it is a purely pagan name.

Anastasios

Hmmm.  I think the day of the week named after Mars in Romanian has a -t- similar to other Romance languages.  One could deduce from that Mars derivatives would have a -t- as well.  But, perhaps not.  Even better if not.  An Orthodox culture that does not require a saint's name.   

I went to school in Pitts with a Romanian GC whose name was Marius and he said it was from Maria.
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2005, 01:05:21 AM »



Our mutual acquaintance Marius told me that that is not accurate, it is from the God Mars and that it is a purely pagan name.

Anastasios

This agrees with you.

http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=marius
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2005, 01:05:40 AM »



Why would I do that?

Well, the nicest thing about emulating the Serbs is that you can drink spirits and beer all through the Fast. The rules say "no wine" and so no wine it is. But that doesn't include spirits and beer. If Father Deacon is being recommended to emulate the Serbs and take on a family Slava this is one good reason for doing so. But are there any Serbian Byzantine Catholics?  You know, I believe there are. Don't they form an apostolic exarchate ruled from Croatia?
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2005, 01:06:12 AM »



Hmmm. I think the day of the week named after Mars in Romanian has a -t- similar to other Romance languages. One could deduce from that Mars derivatives would have a -t- as well. But, perhaps not. Even better if not. An Orthodox culture that does not require a saint's name.

I went to school in Pitts with a Romanian GC whose name was Marius and he said it was from Maria.

I think you are being too categorical again by saying "An Orthodox culture that does not require a saint's name." He said that that is the only name he can think of that is pagan, that he was the only person he knew who didn't have a saint's day, and that it felt awkward. When 99.9999999% of people have a patron saint and a small minority doesn't, that hardly proves your point Tony. The fact is that the vast majority of Orthodox cultures have some form of personal saint, whether patronal or familial, and we shouldn't just chuck this tradition because it seems convenient to us now, and do so by citing the few exceptions in history.

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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2005, 01:06:39 AM »

In the Carpatho-Rusyn tradition as far as I am told by priests who could be mistaken, it is ok to drink beer during any fast.

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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2005, 01:07:35 AM »

http://www.20000-names.com/male_romanian_names.htm

Says it comes from hammer.
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« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2005, 01:10:33 AM »

The fact is that the vast majority of Orthodox cultures have some form of personal saint, whether patronal or familial, and we shouldn't just chuck this tradition because it seems convenient to us now, and do so by citing the few exceptions in history.

Anastasios

I think you are missing my point.  I have at no time suggested one not have a patron saint.  I have suggested that one does not have to have a saint's name in order to have a patron saint. 
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« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2005, 01:11:46 AM »

MARINA - this ancient name is often thought to be a variation of "Mary" but it is actually the feminine form of the Roman name "Marius." The derivation of "Marius" is uncertain; it is possibly related to Mars, the Roman god of War, or the Latin word mas, meaning strong, male. The name "Marina" is found throughout Europe, including England, Scotland, Italy, Germany, Spain, and Russia.

http://www.moonzstuff.com/ncnames-mn.html
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« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2005, 01:12:08 AM »

It appears that things are a bit boring in the Ortho world tonite, eh ?

tsk tsk,

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« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2005, 01:12:31 AM »



Hmmm. I think the day of the week named after Mars in Romanian has a -t- similar to other Romance languages. One could deduce from that Mars derivatives would have a -t- as well. But, perhaps not. Even better if not. An Orthodox culture that does not require a saint's name.

Saint Marius of Bodon. Saint Marius of Avenches. Saint Marius the friend of Saint Valentine... probably lots more. Memory is not so good. Oh, Saint Marius who was really a woman called Mary in a monastery somewhere in Turkey.
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« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2005, 01:13:34 AM »

MARINA - this ancient name is often thought to be a variation of "Mary" but it is actually the feminine form of the Roman name "Marius."  The derivation of "Marius" is uncertain; it is possibly related to Mars, the Roman god of War, or the Latin word mas, meaning strong, male.  The name "Marina" is found throughout Europe, including England, Scotland, Italy, Germany, Spain, and Russia. 

http://www.moonzstuff.com/ncnames-mn.html

Doesn't work as well.  There is a Saint Marina.

What about Mircea?  Radu? 
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« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2005, 01:14:13 AM »

One great name the Bulgarians have Plamen

it is a guy's name.

If you don't know the etymology...look here
http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=plamen     Grin
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« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2005, 01:14:48 AM »



I think you are missing my point. I have at no time suggested one not have a patron saint. I have suggested that one does not have to have a saint's name in order to have a patron saint.

OK, to some extent I missed your point. But if you are baptized or chrismated into the faith you take a patron saint. So why wouldn't you want to go by that name? And if you are born into the faith, you parents give you a name: why wouldn't they give you an Orthodox name? It just seems to me that it's an anomoly to be Orthodox and not have a patron saint whose name you use. If there are people on this forum who do not use their patron saint's name that they took upon becoming Orthodox with the blessing of their spiritual father to not do so, I will point out that I am not trying to judge you, I am more concerned with the theoretical aspects of "why."

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« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2005, 01:16:02 AM »



Saint Marius of Bodon.  Saint Marius of Avenches. Saint Marius the friend of Saint Valentine... probably lots more.  Memory is not so good.  Oh, Saint Marius who was really a woman called Mary in a monastery somewhere in Turkey.

Thanks for letting us know. I was only going on my acquaintance Marius's statement that he has no patron saint and in Romania Mariuses do not have name days.

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« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2005, 01:18:05 AM »

Anastasios,

Talk to the Antiochians they say they have priests who do not have Christian names. I think it is the best to have a Christian name. But, I don't think one must. Obviously obedience comes into play here, if one's jurisdiction requires it very well. I have yet to be convinced it is a universal Orthodox practice.

Anthony <- I was given that name at birth, again, Chvala Bohu!
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« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2005, 01:19:28 AM »



Thanks for letting us know. I was only going on my acquaintance Marius's statement that he has no patron saint and in Romania Mariuses do not have name days.

Anastasios

Well I have not doubt he told you that. But, look, Marius is not an uncommon name. I find it strange that among all names one so common would not have have a namesday. Don't you?
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« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2005, 01:28:07 AM »

How brilliant!  Plamen's namesday is November 8th. 

He makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire!

Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2005, 01:29:45 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Lance is not short for anything. My full name is Lance Daniel Weakland. Benjamin is my confirmation name. I am a deacon of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

My parents are Latin Catholics and I was raised as such albeit I have always had one foot in the Byzantine Church since childhood.

Lance is the anglicized version of St. Longinus who is my patron.

There is no longer any ban on Eastern Catholic Churches ordaining married men to the priesthood. The Melkites, Romanians, and Ukrainians have all ordained married men in the US. A Byzantine Catholic bishop has ordained a married man for the first time since 1929 and this was done in Rome. Hopefully soon he will ordain the second here in the US.

Can I enlighten you on anything else?

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2005, 02:48:00 AM »


Our mutual acquaintance Marius told me that that is not accurate, it is from the God Mars and that it is a purely pagan name.


If that is the case then he does indeed have a patron saint. Aris (Greek Mars) is an early christian martyr and is on the calendar. Also celebrated are the following martyr saints, Dias, Aphrodite, Athena, Artemis and Hercules Smiley. There are many more "pagan" names celebrated as you could well imagine since many martyrs had not yet been baptised but were still among the catechumate.

John
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« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2005, 02:59:59 AM »

Lance is the anglicized version of St. Longinus who is my patron.

My mistake, Father Deacon. I would have taken it as a shortened form of Lancelot.

Quote
There is no longer any ban on Eastern Catholic Churches ordaining married men to the priesthood. The Melkites, Romanians, and Ukrainians have all ordained married men in the US. A Byzantine Catholic bishop has ordained a married man for the first time since 1929 and this was done in Rome. Hopefully soon he will ordain the second here in the US.

From a man who works for the office of one of the US Byzantine bishops.

"Actually, the Ukrainians in the US have not yet ordained any married priests, although there are indications that they intend to do so shortly. Rumor has it that their seminary in DC has been remodeled to accomodate families. The Ukrainians in Canada have ordained; I don't believe the Slovak jurisdiction there has done so.

"My eparchy's website [Melkite] notwithstanding, it's not quite accurate to say that there was no "approval or disapproval by Rome" of the earliest Canadian ordinations. Some of the ordinands were suspended from priestly faculties for a time and there were veiled suggestions that there would be disciplinary action against the hierarch involved; for a time, an Apostolic Visitator was in put in place, effectively creating 2 opposing jurisdictional entities in Toronto and generating quite a bit of controversy among the laity there."

Also see
http://www.melkite.org/latin.htm#Married

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Igpress/CWR/CWR0397/USA.html

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« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2005, 03:19:24 AM »


Also names like Platon and Aristotle are not unknown among Greeks.


I need to check on Aristotle (Aristoteles - sorry no Greek keyboard on this computer), but I know of at least three saints Plato (Platon in Greek and Slavonic).

Thanks
Aristokles (Aristokleus - as in the martyred Elder of Cyprus)
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