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Author Topic: Was Mary baptized?  (Read 1681 times) Average Rating: 0
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bytania
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« on: August 18, 2012, 10:57:01 AM »

Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ  Smiley

I am not sure if this has been previously discussed on the forum (as I am a fairly new member). Recently I heard a sermon by one of our priest about Mary not being baptized because she was free from sin. Is this Orthodox teaching? I would really appreciate if you all could shed some light on this topic or direct me to some resources. Undecided

May the prayers and intercession of the Virgin Mary be with us all!
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 01:36:10 PM »

This is heresy. The Roman Catholic teaching that the Virgin was immaculately conceived, born free from Original Sin, is not Orthodox theology. The Immaculate Conception is based on a different understanding of Original Sin that stems from Augustine.

We do not inherit guilt from Adam's sin. When Adam sinned, his nature became subject to corruption and death. It is this nature, infected with death that we receive from him as his descendants. The virgin received this same nature. Christ received the same nature from her. He defeated the death in that nature on the Cross, and rose victorious. When we are baptised we die with Christ, participating in His victory over death and sin, and rise with Him.

If the Virgin did not have the same nature as us, but was born with a nature like that of Adam before his fall, and if Christ received that nature from her, then Christ's death and resurrection have nothing to do with us. He is able to save men like Adam before the fall, and unable to save us.
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 02:06:58 PM »

bytania,

was the priest teaching the immaculate conception, or was he saying that the Theotokos did not need baptism in water like the rest of us, as she was made pure and the vessel of the Holy Spirit during her conception of the Lord?
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 02:46:11 PM »

bytania,

was the priest teaching the immaculate conception, or was he saying that the Theotokos did not need baptism in water like the rest of us, as she was made pure and the vessel of the Holy Spirit during her conception of the Lord?

He wasn't teaching about immaculate conception. In fact he was just responding to someone's question about Theotokos and baptism. He literally just said that she didn't need to be baptized because she was free from sin.  He talked about Christ being baptized to set an example for us (not that he needed it) and he was comparing that with Theotokos (that she didn't need it either because she was pure). My question is not really about her immaculate conception or being pure (which I don't doubt) but was she baptized or not? I was just wondering if there is anything written about that or if the priest was just teaching what he thinks.
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 03:41:25 PM »

I believe the patristic teaching is that the Annunciation cleansed her from original sin as Baptism would, but she was free from personal sin.
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 03:42:39 PM »

bytania,

was the priest teaching the immaculate conception, or was he saying that the Theotokos did not need baptism in water like the rest of us, as she was made pure and the vessel of the Holy Spirit during her conception of the Lord?

He wasn't teaching about immaculate conception. In fact he was just responding to someone's question about Theotokos and baptism. He literally just said that she didn't need to be baptized because she was free from sin.  He talked about Christ being baptized to set an example for us (not that he needed it) and he was comparing that with Theotokos (that she didn't need it either because she was pure). My question is not really about her immaculate conception or being pure (which I don't doubt) but was she baptized or not? I was just wondering if there is anything written about that or if the priest was just teaching what he thinks.

I thought as much my dear, thank you for the clarification I wanted to make sure before I attempt to address your question. Our Lady on the moment she said yes to conceive the Son of God, The Holy Spirit Himself purified her , as st yared says ' antsiho sigaha wehadere la'eleha/ he purified her flesh and dwelt in her/ she became from that moment on the Throne of the Most Holy Trinity , the Bearer of God the Word in Flesh. her baptism is not in water, her baptism was complete when she said yes to the Will of God and when the Father favored her, when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her, and the Eternal Word became Flesh in her, she forever has in flesh what we hope to acquire through grace, she is the only one to give birth to the Eternal Word in Flesh, but we all are called to be Christ bearers through Christ our Lord in the Spirit, to the Glory of the Father. for that communion and illumination we are baptised and sealed with the Spirit. for her this has already been manifest in the moment of the Incarnation. I hope others chime in as well, and correct what I said if need be too.  Smiley

May her unfailing motherly intercession be with us. amen.
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2012, 03:45:56 PM »

ah! william have said it in a few words than mine  laugh
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2012, 03:48:29 PM »

bytania,

was the priest teaching the immaculate conception, or was he saying that the Theotokos did not need baptism in water like the rest of us, as she was made pure and the vessel of the Holy Spirit during her conception of the Lord?

He wasn't teaching about immaculate conception. In fact he was just responding to someone's question about Theotokos and baptism. He literally just said that she didn't need to be baptized because she was free from sin.  He talked about Christ being baptized to set an example for us (not that he needed it) and he was comparing that with Theotokos (that she didn't need it either because she was pure). My question is not really about her immaculate conception or being pure (which I don't doubt) but was she baptized or not? I was just wondering if there is anything written about that or if the priest was just teaching what he thinks.

I thought as much my dear, thank you for the clarification I wanted to make sure before I attempt to address your question. Our Lady on the moment she said yes to conceive the Son of God, The Holy Spirit Himself purified her , as st yared says ' antsiho sigaha wehadere la'eleha/ he purified her flesh and dwelt in her/ she became from that moment on the Throne of the Most Holy Trinity , the Bearer of God the Word in Flesh. her baptism is not in water, her baptism was complete when she said yes to the Will of God and when the Father favored her, when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her, and the Eternal Word became Flesh in her, she forever has in flesh what we hope to acquire through grace, she is the only one to give birth to the Eternal Word in Flesh, but we all are called to be Christ bearers through Christ our Lord in the Spirit, to the Glory of the Father. for that communion and illumination we are baptised and sealed with the Spirit. for her this has already been manifest in the moment of the Incarnation. I hope others chime in as well, and correct what I said if need be too.  Smiley

May her unfailing motherly intercession be with us. amen.


Excellent explanation. Thank you sister.


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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 12:23:42 AM »

 Has any Church Father chimed in on this, or is this just more Mary worship.
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2012, 12:54:12 AM »

Nevermind.
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2012, 01:57:11 AM »

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XIII. And having been first chastened by many means (because his sins were many, whose root of evil sprang up through various causes and at sundry times), by word, by law, by prophets, by benefits, by threats, by plagues, by waters, by fires, by wars, by victories, by defeats, by signs in heaven and signs in the air and in the earth and in the sea, by unexpected changes of men, of cities, of nations (the object of which was the destruction of wickedness), at last he needed a stronger remedy, for his diseases were growing worse; mutual slaughters, adulteries, perjuries, unnatural crimes, and that first and last of all evils, idolatry and the transfer of worship from the Creator to the Creatures. As these required a greater aid, so also they obtained a greater. And that was that the Word of God Himself— Who is before all worlds, the Invisible, the Incomprehensible, the Bodiless, Beginning of Beginning, the Light of Light, the Source of Life and Immortality, the Image of the Archetypal Beauty, the immovable Seal, the unchangeable Image, the Father's Definition and Word, came to His own Image, and took on Him flesh for the sake of our flesh, and mingled Himself with an intelligent soul for my soul's sake, purifying like by like; and in all points except sin was made man. Conceived by the Virgin, Luke 1:35 who first in body and soul was purified by the Holy Ghost (for it was needful both that Childbearing should be honoured, and that Virginity should receive a higher honour), He came forth then as God with that which He had assumed, One Person in two Natures, Flesh and Spirit, of which the latter deified the former. O new commingling; O strange conjunction; the Self-Existent comes into being, the Uncreate is created, That which cannot be contained is contained, by the intervention of an intellectual soul, mediating between the Deity and the corporeity of the flesh. And He Who gives riches becomes poor, for He assumes the poverty of my flesh, that I may assume the richness of His Godhead. He that is full empties Himself, for He empties Himself of His glory for a short while, that I may have a share in His Fulness. What is the riches of His Goodness? What is this mystery that is around me? I had a share in the image; I did not keep it; He partakes of my flesh that He may both save the image and make the flesh immortal. He communicates a second Communion far more marvellous than the first, inasmuch as then He imparted the better Nature, whereas now Himself partakes of the worse. This is more godlike than the former action, this is loftier in the eyes of all men of understanding.

St.Gregory the Theologian : Oration 38

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310238.htm

Quote
She saw the Magi: her songs increased at their offerings; Lo! Your worshippers have surrounded me, yea your offerings have encircled me. Blessed be the Babe who made His Mother a harp for His words:

And as the harp waits for its master, my mouth waits for You. May the tongue of Your Mother bring what pleases You; and since I have learned a new Conception by You, let my mouth learn in You, O new born Son, a new song of praise.

And if hindrances are no hindrances to You, since difficulties are easy to You, as a womb without marriage conceived You, and a belly without seed brought You forth, it is easy for a little mouth to multiply Your great glory.

Lo! I am oppressed and despised, and yet cheerful: mine ears are filled with reproof and scorn; and it is a small thing to me to bear, for ten thousand troubles can a single comfort of Yours chase away.

And since I am not despised by You, O Son, my countenance is bright; and I am slandered for having conceived, and yet have brought forth the Truth who justifies me. For if Tamar was justified by Judah, how much more shall I be justified by You!

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3703.htm St Ephraim the Syrian Hymn 10


hymn 11
Quote
You are not [so] the Son of Man that I should sing unto You a common lullaby; for Your Conception is new, and Your Birth marvellous. Without the Spirit who shall sing to You? A new muttering of prophecy is hot within me.

How shall I call You a stranger to us, Who is from us? Should I call You Son? Should I call You Brother? Matthew 12:50 Husband should I call You? Lord should I call You, O Child that gave Your Mother a second birth from the waters?

For I am Your sister, of the house of David the father of us Both. Again, I am Your Mother because of Your Conception, and Your Bride am I because of Your sanctification, Your handmaid and Your daughter, from the Blood and Water wherewith You have purchased me and baptised me.

The Son of the Most High came and dwelt in me, and I became His Mother; and as by a second birth I brought Him forth so did He bring me forth by the second birth, because He put His Mother's garments on, she clothed her body with His glory.

Tamar, who was of the house of David, Amnon put to shame; and virginity fell and perished from them both. My pearl is not lost: in Your treasury it is stored, because You have put it on.

The scent of her brother-in-law slunk from Tamar, whose perfume she had stolen. As for Joseph's Bride, not even his breath exhaled from her garments, since she conceived Cinnamon. Song of Songs 4:14 A wall of fire was Your Conception unto me, O holy Son.

The little flower was faint, because the smell of the Lily Song of Songs 2:1 of Glory was great. The Treasure-house of spices stood in no need of flower or its smells! Flesh stood aloof because it perceived in the womb a Conception from the Spirit.

The woman ministers before the man, because he is her head. Joseph rose to minister before his Lord, Who was in Mary. The priest ministered before Your ark by reason of Your holiness.

Moses carried the tables of stone which the Lord wrote, and Joseph bare about the pure Tablet in whom the Son of the Creator was dwelling. The tables had ceased, because the world was filled with Your doctrine.

there are more but there is no doubt among the fathers who taught the immaculateness of the virgin/ not her immaculate conception/ but her purity from personal sin before and her purity from the ancestral sin upon the moment of conception so the one who is born from her is with out any stain of the ancestral sin. He alone is immaculately conceived and born.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 02:22:56 AM »

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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 05:33:36 AM »

This sort of reminds me about what my Priest said about how the righteous thief who died on the right side of our Lord attained salvation without water Baptism. He said "Baptism is when we die and resurrect with Christ, so what did the thief on the right literally do?"

Made perfect sense...
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 11:45:03 AM »

Quote
XIII. And having been first chastened by many means (because his sins were many, whose root of evil sprang up through various causes and at sundry times), by word, by law, by prophets, by benefits, by threats, by plagues, by waters, by fires, by wars, by victories, by defeats, by signs in heaven and signs in the air and in the earth and in the sea, by unexpected changes of men, of cities, of nations (the object of which was the destruction of wickedness), at last he needed a stronger remedy, for his diseases were growing worse; mutual slaughters, adulteries, perjuries, unnatural crimes, and that first and last of all evils, idolatry and the transfer of worship from the Creator to the Creatures. As these required a greater aid, so also they obtained a greater. And that was that the Word of God Himself— Who is before all worlds, the Invisible, the Incomprehensible, the Bodiless, Beginning of Beginning, the Light of Light, the Source of Life and Immortality, the Image of the Archetypal Beauty, the immovable Seal, the unchangeable Image, the Father's Definition and Word, came to His own Image, and took on Him flesh for the sake of our flesh, and mingled Himself with an intelligent soul for my soul's sake, purifying like by like; and in all points except sin was made man. Conceived by the Virgin, Luke 1:35 who first in body and soul was purified by the Holy Ghost (for it was needful both that Childbearing should be honoured, and that Virginity should receive a higher honour), He came forth then as God with that which He had assumed, One Person in two Natures, Flesh and Spirit, of which the latter deified the former. O new commingling; O strange conjunction; the Self-Existent comes into being, the Uncreate is created, That which cannot be contained is contained, by the intervention of an intellectual soul, mediating between the Deity and the corporeity of the flesh. And He Who gives riches becomes poor, for He assumes the poverty of my flesh, that I may assume the richness of His Godhead. He that is full empties Himself, for He empties Himself of His glory for a short while, that I may have a share in His Fulness. What is the riches of His Goodness? What is this mystery that is around me? I had a share in the image; I did not keep it; He partakes of my flesh that He may both save the image and make the flesh immortal. He communicates a second Communion far more marvellous than the first, inasmuch as then He imparted the better Nature, whereas now Himself partakes of the worse. This is more godlike than the former action, this is loftier in the eyes of all men of understanding.

St.Gregory the Theologian : Oration 38

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310238.htm

Quote
She saw the Magi: her songs increased at their offerings; Lo! Your worshippers have surrounded me, yea your offerings have encircled me. Blessed be the Babe who made His Mother a harp for His words:

And as the harp waits for its master, my mouth waits for You. May the tongue of Your Mother bring what pleases You; and since I have learned a new Conception by You, let my mouth learn in You, O new born Son, a new song of praise.

And if hindrances are no hindrances to You, since difficulties are easy to You, as a womb without marriage conceived You, and a belly without seed brought You forth, it is easy for a little mouth to multiply Your great glory.

Lo! I am oppressed and despised, and yet cheerful: mine ears are filled with reproof and scorn; and it is a small thing to me to bear, for ten thousand troubles can a single comfort of Yours chase away.

And since I am not despised by You, O Son, my countenance is bright; and I am slandered for having conceived, and yet have brought forth the Truth who justifies me. For if Tamar was justified by Judah, how much more shall I be justified by You!

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3703.htm St Ephraim the Syrian Hymn 10


hymn 11
Quote
You are not [so] the Son of Man that I should sing unto You a common lullaby; for Your Conception is new, and Your Birth marvellous. Without the Spirit who shall sing to You? A new muttering of prophecy is hot within me.

How shall I call You a stranger to us, Who is from us? Should I call You Son? Should I call You Brother? Matthew 12:50 Husband should I call You? Lord should I call You, O Child that gave Your Mother a second birth from the waters?

For I am Your sister, of the house of David the father of us Both. Again, I am Your Mother because of Your Conception, and Your Bride am I because of Your sanctification, Your handmaid and Your daughter, from the Blood and Water wherewith You have purchased me and baptised me.

The Son of the Most High came and dwelt in me, and I became His Mother; and as by a second birth I brought Him forth so did He bring me forth by the second birth, because He put His Mother's garments on, she clothed her body with His glory.

Tamar, who was of the house of David, Amnon put to shame; and virginity fell and perished from them both. My pearl is not lost: in Your treasury it is stored, because You have put it on.

The scent of her brother-in-law slunk from Tamar, whose perfume she had stolen. As for Joseph's Bride, not even his breath exhaled from her garments, since she conceived Cinnamon. Song of Songs 4:14 A wall of fire was Your Conception unto me, O holy Son.

The little flower was faint, because the smell of the Lily Song of Songs 2:1 of Glory was great. The Treasure-house of spices stood in no need of flower or its smells! Flesh stood aloof because it perceived in the womb a Conception from the Spirit.

The woman ministers before the man, because he is her head. Joseph rose to minister before his Lord, Who was in Mary. The priest ministered before Your ark by reason of Your holiness.

Moses carried the tables of stone which the Lord wrote, and Joseph bare about the pure Tablet in whom the Son of the Creator was dwelling. The tables had ceased, because the world was filled with Your doctrine.

there are more but there is no doubt among the fathers who taught the immaculateness of the virgin/ not her immaculate conception/ but her purity from personal sin before and her purity from the ancestral sin upon the moment of conception so the one who is born from her is with out any stain of the ancestral sin. He alone is immaculately conceived and born.



Thank you Hiwot!  Grin Makes perfect sense!
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 11:47:02 AM »

This sort of reminds me about what my Priest said about how the righteous thief who died on the right side of our Lord attained salvation without water Baptism. He said "Baptism is when we die and resurrect with Christ, so what did the thief on the right literally do?"

Made perfect sense...

Very interesting! Never thought about that one either. I always here about the righteous thief in arguments that try to prove that someone can be saved by faith alone.
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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2012, 12:05:54 PM »

Where was she on Pentecost?
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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2012, 04:00:12 PM »

Quote
XIII. And having been first chastened by many means (because his sins were many, whose root of evil sprang up through various causes and at sundry times), by word, by law, by prophets, by benefits, by threats, by plagues, by waters, by fires, by wars, by victories, by defeats, by signs in heaven and signs in the air and in the earth and in the sea, by unexpected changes of men, of cities, of nations (the object of which was the destruction of wickedness), at last he needed a stronger remedy, for his diseases were growing worse; mutual slaughters, adulteries, perjuries, unnatural crimes, and that first and last of all evils, idolatry and the transfer of worship from the Creator to the Creatures. As these required a greater aid, so also they obtained a greater. And that was that the Word of God Himself— Who is before all worlds, the Invisible, the Incomprehensible, the Bodiless, Beginning of Beginning, the Light of Light, the Source of Life and Immortality, the Image of the Archetypal Beauty, the immovable Seal, the unchangeable Image, the Father's Definition and Word, came to His own Image, and took on Him flesh for the sake of our flesh, and mingled Himself with an intelligent soul for my soul's sake, purifying like by like; and in all points except sin was made man. Conceived by the Virgin, Luke 1:35 who first in body and soul was purified by the Holy Ghost (for it was needful both that Childbearing should be honoured, and that Virginity should receive a higher honour), He came forth then as God with that which He had assumed, One Person in two Natures, Flesh and Spirit, of which the latter deified the former. O new commingling; O strange conjunction; the Self-Existent comes into being, the Uncreate is created, That which cannot be contained is contained, by the intervention of an intellectual soul, mediating between the Deity and the corporeity of the flesh. And He Who gives riches becomes poor, for He assumes the poverty of my flesh, that I may assume the richness of His Godhead. He that is full empties Himself, for He empties Himself of His glory for a short while, that I may have a share in His Fulness. What is the riches of His Goodness? What is this mystery that is around me? I had a share in the image; I did not keep it; He partakes of my flesh that He may both save the image and make the flesh immortal. He communicates a second Communion far more marvellous than the first, inasmuch as then He imparted the better Nature, whereas now Himself partakes of the worse. This is more godlike than the former action, this is loftier in the eyes of all men of understanding.

St.Gregory the Theologian : Oration 38

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310238.htm

Quote
She saw the Magi: her songs increased at their offerings; Lo! Your worshippers have surrounded me, yea your offerings have encircled me. Blessed be the Babe who made His Mother a harp for His words:

And as the harp waits for its master, my mouth waits for You. May the tongue of Your Mother bring what pleases You; and since I have learned a new Conception by You, let my mouth learn in You, O new born Son, a new song of praise.

And if hindrances are no hindrances to You, since difficulties are easy to You, as a womb without marriage conceived You, and a belly without seed brought You forth, it is easy for a little mouth to multiply Your great glory.

Lo! I am oppressed and despised, and yet cheerful: mine ears are filled with reproof and scorn; and it is a small thing to me to bear, for ten thousand troubles can a single comfort of Yours chase away.

And since I am not despised by You, O Son, my countenance is bright; and I am slandered for having conceived, and yet have brought forth the Truth who justifies me. For if Tamar was justified by Judah, how much more shall I be justified by You!

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3703.htm St Ephraim the Syrian Hymn 10


hymn 11
Quote
You are not [so] the Son of Man that I should sing unto You a common lullaby; for Your Conception is new, and Your Birth marvellous. Without the Spirit who shall sing to You? A new muttering of prophecy is hot within me.

How shall I call You a stranger to us, Who is from us? Should I call You Son? Should I call You Brother? Matthew 12:50 Husband should I call You? Lord should I call You, O Child that gave Your Mother a second birth from the waters?

For I am Your sister, of the house of David the father of us Both. Again, I am Your Mother because of Your Conception, and Your Bride am I because of Your sanctification, Your handmaid and Your daughter, from the Blood and Water wherewith You have purchased me and baptised me.

The Son of the Most High came and dwelt in me, and I became His Mother; and as by a second birth I brought Him forth so did He bring me forth by the second birth, because He put His Mother's garments on, she clothed her body with His glory.

Tamar, who was of the house of David, Amnon put to shame; and virginity fell and perished from them both. My pearl is not lost: in Your treasury it is stored, because You have put it on.

The scent of her brother-in-law slunk from Tamar, whose perfume she had stolen. As for Joseph's Bride, not even his breath exhaled from her garments, since she conceived Cinnamon. Song of Songs 4:14 A wall of fire was Your Conception unto me, O holy Son.

The little flower was faint, because the smell of the Lily Song of Songs 2:1 of Glory was great. The Treasure-house of spices stood in no need of flower or its smells! Flesh stood aloof because it perceived in the womb a Conception from the Spirit.

The woman ministers before the man, because he is her head. Joseph rose to minister before his Lord, Who was in Mary. The priest ministered before Your ark by reason of Your holiness.

Moses carried the tables of stone which the Lord wrote, and Joseph bare about the pure Tablet in whom the Son of the Creator was dwelling. The tables had ceased, because the world was filled with Your doctrine.

there are more but there is no doubt among the fathers who taught the immaculateness of the virgin/ not her immaculate conception/ but her purity from personal sin before and her purity from the ancestral sin upon the moment of conception so the one who is born from her is with out any stain of the ancestral sin. He alone is immaculately conceived and born.


Not at all convincing.  If Christ Himself obeyed all parts of the Law, I am sure that His Holy Mother did likewise.  The simple fact is that being human, she ate, pooped and bled like every woman, like it or not.  There were rules that were followed for this in Jewish law.  Why did she wait to bring Jesus to the temple?  Because she was unclean after giving birth.  Christ did not come to abolish the Law.  Unless there is convincing proof otherwise, I say she was baptised by John the same as Jesus and His disciples.  And, as the Icons show, she recieved the Holy Spirit the same time as the others, on Pentecost.
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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2012, 06:13:43 PM »

And, as the Icons show, she recieved the Holy Spirit the same time as the others, on Pentecost.

And we have our answer.
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« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2012, 09:32:18 PM »

Quote
XIII. And having been first chastened by many means (because his sins were many, whose root of evil sprang up through various causes and at sundry times), by word, by law, by prophets, by benefits, by threats, by plagues, by waters, by fires, by wars, by victories, by defeats, by signs in heaven and signs in the air and in the earth and in the sea, by unexpected changes of men, of cities, of nations (the object of which was the destruction of wickedness), at last he needed a stronger remedy, for his diseases were growing worse; mutual slaughters, adulteries, perjuries, unnatural crimes, and that first and last of all evils, idolatry and the transfer of worship from the Creator to the Creatures. As these required a greater aid, so also they obtained a greater. And that was that the Word of God Himself— Who is before all worlds, the Invisible, the Incomprehensible, the Bodiless, Beginning of Beginning, the Light of Light, the Source of Life and Immortality, the Image of the Archetypal Beauty, the immovable Seal, the unchangeable Image, the Father's Definition and Word, came to His own Image, and took on Him flesh for the sake of our flesh, and mingled Himself with an intelligent soul for my soul's sake, purifying like by like; and in all points except sin was made man. Conceived by the Virgin, Luke 1:35 who first in body and soul was purified by the Holy Ghost (for it was needful both that Childbearing should be honoured, and that Virginity should receive a higher honour), He came forth then as God with that which He had assumed, One Person in two Natures, Flesh and Spirit, of which the latter deified the former. O new commingling; O strange conjunction; the Self-Existent comes into being, the Uncreate is created, That which cannot be contained is contained, by the intervention of an intellectual soul, mediating between the Deity and the corporeity of the flesh. And He Who gives riches becomes poor, for He assumes the poverty of my flesh, that I may assume the richness of His Godhead. He that is full empties Himself, for He empties Himself of His glory for a short while, that I may have a share in His Fulness. What is the riches of His Goodness? What is this mystery that is around me? I had a share in the image; I did not keep it; He partakes of my flesh that He may both save the image and make the flesh immortal. He communicates a second Communion far more marvellous than the first, inasmuch as then He imparted the better Nature, whereas now Himself partakes of the worse. This is more godlike than the former action, this is loftier in the eyes of all men of understanding.

St.Gregory the Theologian : Oration 38

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310238.htm

Quote
She saw the Magi: her songs increased at their offerings; Lo! Your worshippers have surrounded me, yea your offerings have encircled me. Blessed be the Babe who made His Mother a harp for His words:

And as the harp waits for its master, my mouth waits for You. May the tongue of Your Mother bring what pleases You; and since I have learned a new Conception by You, let my mouth learn in You, O new born Son, a new song of praise.

And if hindrances are no hindrances to You, since difficulties are easy to You, as a womb without marriage conceived You, and a belly without seed brought You forth, it is easy for a little mouth to multiply Your great glory.

Lo! I am oppressed and despised, and yet cheerful: mine ears are filled with reproof and scorn; and it is a small thing to me to bear, for ten thousand troubles can a single comfort of Yours chase away.

And since I am not despised by You, O Son, my countenance is bright; and I am slandered for having conceived, and yet have brought forth the Truth who justifies me. For if Tamar was justified by Judah, how much more shall I be justified by You!

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3703.htm St Ephraim the Syrian Hymn 10


hymn 11
Quote
You are not [so] the Son of Man that I should sing unto You a common lullaby; for Your Conception is new, and Your Birth marvellous. Without the Spirit who shall sing to You? A new muttering of prophecy is hot within me.

How shall I call You a stranger to us, Who is from us? Should I call You Son? Should I call You Brother? Matthew 12:50 Husband should I call You? Lord should I call You, O Child that gave Your Mother a second birth from the waters?

For I am Your sister, of the house of David the father of us Both. Again, I am Your Mother because of Your Conception, and Your Bride am I because of Your sanctification, Your handmaid and Your daughter, from the Blood and Water wherewith You have purchased me and baptised me.

The Son of the Most High came and dwelt in me, and I became His Mother; and as by a second birth I brought Him forth so did He bring me forth by the second birth, because He put His Mother's garments on, she clothed her body with His glory.

Tamar, who was of the house of David, Amnon put to shame; and virginity fell and perished from them both. My pearl is not lost: in Your treasury it is stored, because You have put it on.

The scent of her brother-in-law slunk from Tamar, whose perfume she had stolen. As for Joseph's Bride, not even his breath exhaled from her garments, since she conceived Cinnamon. Song of Songs 4:14 A wall of fire was Your Conception unto me, O holy Son.

The little flower was faint, because the smell of the Lily Song of Songs 2:1 of Glory was great. The Treasure-house of spices stood in no need of flower or its smells! Flesh stood aloof because it perceived in the womb a Conception from the Spirit.

The woman ministers before the man, because he is her head. Joseph rose to minister before his Lord, Who was in Mary. The priest ministered before Your ark by reason of Your holiness.

Moses carried the tables of stone which the Lord wrote, and Joseph bare about the pure Tablet in whom the Son of the Creator was dwelling. The tables had ceased, because the world was filled with Your doctrine.

there are more but there is no doubt among the fathers who taught the immaculateness of the virgin/ not her immaculate conception/ but her purity from personal sin before and her purity from the ancestral sin upon the moment of conception so the one who is born from her is with out any stain of the ancestral sin. He alone is immaculately conceived and born.


Not at all convincing.  If Christ Himself obeyed all parts of the Law, I am sure that His Holy Mother did likewise.  The simple fact is that being human, she ate, pooped and bled like every woman, like it or not.  There were rules that were followed for this in Jewish law.  Why did she wait to bring Jesus to the temple?  Because she was unclean after giving birth.  Christ did not come to abolish the Law.  Unless there is convincing proof otherwise, I say she was baptised by John the same as Jesus and His disciples.  And, as the Icons show, she recieved the Holy Spirit the same time as the others, on Pentecost.

But there isn't anything written in the bible that says that she was baptized by John like Jesus and His disciples. So how can you make that bold assumption? I think its more appropriate to try to figure out why she wouldn't be baptized since there is nothing written about her baptism (at least to my knowledge).
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« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2012, 09:45:01 PM »

I think its more appropriate to try to figure out why she wouldn't be baptized since there is nothing written about her baptism (at least to my knowledge).

Nothing is written about anyone in the upper room on Pentecost being baptized, not counting John's baptism (which was for repentence and forgiveness of sins but not into Christ and the Church).
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« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2012, 10:11:15 PM »

But there isn't anything written in the bible that says that she was baptized by John like Jesus and His disciples. So how can you make that bold assumption? I think its more appropriate to try to figure out why she wouldn't be baptized since there is nothing written about her baptism (at least to my knowledge).

Actually, there isn't anything written in the Scriptures about any of the original Twelve, or any of the Myrrh-bearers, or St. James the Brother of God, being baptized. We just assume they were because if the Master Himself was baptized 'to fulfill all righteousness' why would we assume that any of His followers would not have done likewise?

Consider this, did the Theotokos partake of the Eucharist?
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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2012, 08:25:35 AM »

The Theotokos certainly partook of the Eucharist as she was constantly at the heart of the early Church.

I am not sure that any of the Twelve were baptised in a Christian sense, though they may well have been baptised by John. The Twelve became THE CHURCH at Pentecost, while we become members of the Church through baptism and chrismation.
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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2012, 08:38:37 AM »

Nothing is written about anyone in the upper room on Pentecost being baptized, not counting John's baptism (which was for repentence and forgiveness of sins but not into Christ and the Church).

“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait there for what my Father promised, which you heard about from me. For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:4-5)
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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2012, 08:01:57 PM »

Nothing is written about anyone in the upper room on Pentecost being baptized, not counting John's baptism (which was for repentence and forgiveness of sins but not into Christ and the Church).
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait there for what my Father promised, which you heard about from me. For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:4-5)

You know what I meant.  police
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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2012, 08:36:53 PM »

There are so many points raised in here I will try to touch up on them…

First the baptism we are talking about is the Christian baptism not the baptism of St. John the Forerunner. The Mystery of Baptism cleanses us from the ancestral sin, gives us illumination and makes us the part of the body of Christ. It is not repeatable.

The Theotokos  on the annunciation she  was filled with the Sanctifying Grace of the Holy Spirit, who Cleansed her of the ancestral sin, and gave her the power to receive and conceive the Eternal Word  in flesh. The fullness of Divinity became flesh in her womb!!! The Father found her to be Worthy and Chose her of all the creation to be the Mother of His Only Begotten Son in flesh. We know all the prophesies  about her and her archetypes of the Law found fulfillment in the New Eve, the Living Temple of the Holy  Spirit, the Holy of Holies , she who without seed brought forth God the Word in Flesh. We know what the Angel said to her at the annunciation, Rejoice O Full of Grace the Lord is With Thee! Who else among creation has heard such a greeting in the Spirit? Or when the angel said to her “The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God” or the Holy Spirit Himself inspiring l humans both in the womb and outside of it who were favored enough to hear her voice to praise her in the Spirit, “0where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!” Luke 1:40-45


Why was this? Because it was the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, the sun of righteousness has come! The Light of our Salvation has arrived in the house of David the Eternal Living Temple established, the perfect union of God and Man Accomplished in her that willingly gave him our humanity as He in turn gave us His Divinity in a perfect and everlasting union that has risen up humanity to heights of Glory indescribable! By His will and by the will of His Father and The Holy Spirit along with the will of the blessed virgin, He became Perfect Man in all things except sin, as he is born of her who has been made all pure by the Holy Spirit Himself! He took pure flesh of her pure flesh, pure soul of her pure soul and became one of us.


What is lacking in her that she who is full of Grace that she brought forth the Second Person of the Holy Trinity in Flesh needed a baptism of water for?  She that carried the fullness of the Divinity Himself and became the Living Temple of the Spirit, the Holy of Holies, the Living Ark of the Covenant, who would dare to say that she needed a second baptism  and that of water when the very Fire of Divinity dwelled in her womb and she gave birth to Him in Flesh?!


If the Lord was baptized by John it is not because he needed it, but because we benefited from it, because it was part of His salvific work, to sanctify the waters of the world, to enable us to receive the Holy Spirit. It was not to obey the law as the baptism of John has nothing to do with the law but everything to do the prophecy of the Theophany. When the Holy Spirit came upon Him it was not because the Holy Spirit was separated from Him before.


If the Lord kept the Mosaic Law, it was to fulfill them and perfect them; it was not because he was bound under them. He was the Giver of the Law and its perfection.  He fulfilled all righteousness for our sake.
His mother who kept the law and the ritual cleanliness did so not because the Temple who holds the ark was holier than her the Living Temple of the Fullness of the Divinity in Fleshed in her, or that she somehow became unclean by giving Birth to the Holy One of Israel. God Forbid we would say such a thing! The restored Humanity is the full humanity as it was meant to be in the Theotokos not only was she restored to the state of humanity before the fall but elevated even above because the New Eve is truly the Mother of the Living! The Curse of Eve was loosened by her when she gave Birth to the Word in Flesh!  Both virginity and Birth became sanctified because she gave birth to the Word Incarnate while remaining a Virgin. She is ever- virgin,” qideme welid, gize welid , dihere welid/ Virgin before birth, Virgin during birth, Virgin after birth/according to the Prophecy. The entire point of the preparation through the Law and separation of the people of Israel was in preparation and preservation of her that will be worthy to give Birth to the Son of God in flesh .Isaiah 1:9 “Except the Lord of hosts had left us seed, we had been as Sodom, and we should have been like to Gomorrah.” We all know what happened to humanity because of the disobedience of the first Adam and the first Eve. Let us by the help of the Spirit contemplate then, what is accomplished by the Incarnation, through the Second Adam and the Second Eve.



To keep it simple, the Theotokos  did not need the baptism of repentance by John who was filled by the Spirit upon hearing her voice while he was still in the womb of his mother Elizabeth. We have seen why the Lord got baptized by John in the Theophany, not out of need for himself but for our sake and in fulfilling the prophecy. Just like Christ did not lack the Holy Spirit before when it came to rest upon him in a form of a Dove, the coming of the Spirit on the Theotokos on Pentecost is not because she needed to be re baptized by the spirit in order to be cleansed from the ancestral sin and become the body of Christ because that already has happened as it is the very thing why we are all baptized for. She has already had the fullness of Grace from the fullness of her Son’s Graces. She is the only one who bore the Word in Flesh, her glory beyond compare from all creation; she has become higher than all creation in that very second of the Incarnation no one created can ever supersede her in purity, honor and glory. On Pentecost the Spirit Came to establish the Church and give witness to the Son the Beloved of the Father and make all things new through the Son for the Glory of the Father. The Apostles got baptized by the fire of the Spirit and received His Chrism according to their ability and they became the members of the Body of Christ. For them it was necessary to receive this power that sanctified, illumined, strengthened them and sealed their communion with the Trinity as members of the body of Christ. Even if Pentecost did not happen she already had acquired the fullness of the Grace of the Spirit in her on the annunciation. we must then keep in mind that on Pentecost It’s not as if this is the First time that the Holy Spirit has come upon her, what are we claiming happened in and through the Incarnation? Where we hear everyone from heaven among the Angeles and earth among the saints and the prophets all blessing her in the Spirit and the Spirit Himself testifying on her behalf. Verses that of the awaiting till Pentecost to sanctify her, who bore the Holy One of Israel, where is this new sentiment coming from? Certainly not from the Orthodox Fathers, who all had the same understanding of the law and the prophets who spoke about her, whom she is the archetype of, and who all had the same love that was in her son for her, and who all have tasted the sweetness of her motherly love and who stood in awe forever contemplating the indescribable glory of the Mystery that was done in her. but even if it was a personal speculation of sorts by what ground do we deny or reject what happened on the Incarnation, as insufficient to be sanctifying, illuminating and unifying Grace of the Holy Spirit, by whose Power it happened, and what it mean to her and to the entire humanity in the fulfillment of the law and the prophets in her through her son and her obedience?

“Glorious things are said of thee, O city of God” Psalm 87:3

Sorry for the long post, I will be quite busy in the next few days, but I will try to reply as soon as I can.


In Christ,
Hiwot.
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« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 08:46:41 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Let us kindly remember that the Incarnation occurred BEFORE the institution of Apostolic Baptism through the Church.  Though Christ Himself was baptized, we can consider Our Lady the Virgin Mary as an Old Testament Saint, those who are baptized through the Spirit and not necessarily having to be through the water.  Remember the water is an active symbol of the Spirit, but it is the Spirit which is important, not inherently the water. 

Quote
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ

Remember we also read of folks having the Baptism of John but not having received yet the Spirit.  However, we clearly read the Holy Spirit coming upon Our Lady, just as the Spirit falls on those in the Apostolic Baptism.  She therefore is rightfully baptized then in the same context as those other Old Testament saints, in the prefiguring of Baptism itself.  She being that generation preceding Christ, She had no need to be Baptized in water, having already been given the Spirit.  The difference between the Old Testament saints' baptism in the Spirit, and our own Baptism in the Church, is the the Church is Universal.  Previous, the Spirit only baptized those who God had chosen and ordained, such as the Patriarchs, or the Prophets, and especially Our Lady who is realistically both and their rightful descendant.  Through the Church WE ALL can receive the Holy Spirit through the Universal Baptism. 

stay blessed,
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