Author Topic: New AWRV Fasting Rules  (Read 1508 times)

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Offline thetraditionalfrog

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New AWRV Fasting Rules
« on: November 11, 2013, 11:59:34 AM »
I am aware that the AWRV has recently changed their fasting rules from the pre-Vatican II RC rules. I am looking for the official rules as they stand now. All I seem to be able to find online are those for Lent. Could someone please share the official rules of fasting & abstinence for the entire year and/or provide a link.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2013, 12:22:19 PM »
I am aware that the AWRV has recently changed their fasting rules from the pre-Vatican II RC rules. I am looking for the official rules as they stand now. All I seem to be able to find online are those for Lent. Could someone please share the official rules of fasting & abstinence for the entire year and/or provide a link.
I have November readily available, if that'll help till I find the entire year.

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Offline thetraditionalfrog

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2013, 12:32:41 PM »
I am aware that the AWRV has recently changed their fasting rules from the pre-Vatican II RC rules. I am looking for the official rules as they stand now. All I seem to be able to find online are those for Lent. Could someone please share the official rules of fasting & abstinence for the entire year and/or provide a link.
I have November readily available, if that'll help till I find the entire year.

PP

Thank you. November will work until you can locate the other.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2013, 12:37:58 PM »
I am aware that the AWRV has recently changed their fasting rules from the pre-Vatican II RC rules. I am looking for the official rules as they stand now. All I seem to be able to find online are those for Lent. Could someone please share the official rules of fasting & abstinence for the entire year and/or provide a link.
I have November readily available, if that'll help till I find the entire year.

PP

Thank you. November will work until you can locate the other.
http://www.orthodoxlynchburg.org/images/November_2013.pdf

Top right hand corner of the day in question.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2013, 06:38:58 PM »
I am aware that the AWRV has recently changed their fasting rules from the pre-Vatican II RC rules. I am looking for the official rules as they stand now. All I seem to be able to find online are those for Lent. Could someone please share the official rules of fasting & abstinence for the entire year and/or provide a link.
These fasting rules?
http://www.holyincarnation.org/pub/fasting-abstinence.pdf
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2013, 06:38:58 PM »
I am aware that the AWRV has recently changed their fasting rules from the pre-Vatican II RC rules. I am looking for the official rules as they stand now. All I seem to be able to find online are those for Lent. Could someone please share the official rules of fasting & abstinence for the entire year and/or provide a link.
I have November readily available, if that'll help till I find the entire year.

PP

Thank you. November will work until you can locate the other.
http://www.orthodoxlynchburg.org/images/November_2013.pdf

Top right hand corner of the day in question.

PP
It is interesting that St. Gregory Palamas, who was struck from the Byzantine calendars when they submitted to the Vatican, is celebrated on November 14, the day the Vatican had assigned to Joasaphat the Malevolent when its Latin Poles canonized him, over the objection and rejection of the Vatican's Ruthenians (who refused to have anything to do with the canonization).
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline phronesis

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2013, 05:44:36 PM »
I am aware that the AWRV has recently changed their fasting rules from the pre-Vatican II RC rules. I am looking for the official rules as they stand now. All I seem to be able to find online are those for Lent. Could someone please share the official rules of fasting & abstinence for the entire year and/or provide a link.

I wrote up a summary of the current AWRV fasting norms here: http://epiklesis.tumblr.com/post/45763867723/fasting-in-the-orthodox-western-rite

First, there are two components: abstinence and fasting. Abstinence concerns only the kind of food; on days of abstinence, the faithful are to abstain from “flesh-meat only and the juice thereof.” Abstinence is observed on every Friday throughout the year (unless Christmas falls on a Friday) and every day of fasting.

Fasting incorporates abstinence and adds in requirements concerning the quantity of food eaten. On days of fasting, the faithful abstain from flesh-meat and also limit themselves to one full meal per day, taken after noon. A “collation,” about one-fourth of a normal meal, is also allowed (basically, a snack). Days of fasting include: MWF in Advent; everyday in Lent (except Sundays); Ember Days; and the vigils of Whitsunday, the Assumption, All Saints, and Christmas.

Additionally, the faithful of the Western Rite are also obliged to observe the Eucharistic Fast, which “consists of taking no food or drink (excepting water and medicines) from midnight until the reception of the Eucharist the next morning.”

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 06:07:38 PM »
On days of fasting, the faithful abstain from flesh-meat and also limit themselves to one full meal per day, taken after noon.

Since the collation is defined with reference to the "full meal", does the tradition indicate how much food equals "one full meal"?  Or is it simply that whatever you regard as "one full meal" is the figure by which you calculate the quantity for your collation? 
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Offline newtoorthodoxy

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2013, 06:17:59 PM »
On days of fasting, the faithful abstain from flesh-meat and also limit themselves to one full meal per day, taken after noon.

Since the collation is defined with reference to the "full meal", does the tradition indicate how much food equals "one full meal"?  Or is it simply that whatever you regard as "one full meal" is the figure by which you calculate the quantity for your collation? 


In other words, can we has a snicker bar or bag of chips?
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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2013, 06:21:19 PM »
Snickers bars are always allowed.  They are not Lenten, but your mouth doesn't care. 
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2013, 09:30:58 AM »
Quote
It is interesting that St. Gregory Palamas, who was struck from the Byzantine calendars when they submitted to the Vatican, is celebrated on November 14, the day the Vatican had assigned to Joasaphat the Malevolent when its Latin Poles canonized him, over the objection and rejection of the Vatican's Ruthenians (who refused to have anything to do with the canonization).
Pretty darn interesting actually :) Its kind of like shoving a thumb in the eye of the Vatican.

On days of fasting, the faithful abstain from flesh-meat and also limit themselves to one full meal per day, taken after noon.

Since the collation is defined with reference to the "full meal", does the tradition indicate how much food equals "one full meal"?  Or is it simply that whatever you regard as "one full meal" is the figure by which you calculate the quantity for your collation? 
My priest is not very judgmental on what consists "one full meal". I have a voracious appetite, so for fasting I just eat enough to stave off stomach pain and nothing more.

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Offline phronesis

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 02:19:39 PM »
On days of fasting, the faithful abstain from flesh-meat and also limit themselves to one full meal per day, taken after noon.

Since the collation is defined with reference to the "full meal", does the tradition indicate how much food equals "one full meal"?  Or is it simply that whatever you regard as "one full meal" is the figure by which you calculate the quantity for your collation? 

As they say: Ask your priest. :)

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2013, 03:13:30 PM »
As they say: Ask your priest. :)

I expected something less "arbitrary" from the West.  :P
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2013, 03:28:43 PM »
As they say: Ask your priest. :)

I expected something less "arbitrary" from the West.  :P

 :laugh:

Offline jah777

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2013, 03:57:39 PM »
The following quote is interesting:

Quote
Those who desire to imitate more austere fasting practices, such as those of the Byzantine Rite, should do so only after consulting with their Father Confessor.

http://www.holyincarnation.org/pub/fasting-abstinence.pdf

While in the Byzantine Rite, Wednesdays are days of fasting rather than just abstinence, it is my impression that most of those on the Byzantine Rite actually observe all fasting days as if they were days of abstinence according to the Western Rite calendar.  In other words, while traditionally strict fast days (Wednesdays, Fridays, all week days during Lent, etc.) in the Orthodox Church were observed with a single meal taken after the ninth hour (3pm), in our day it is rare to find anyone who limits the number of meals as well as the type of food.  If the majority did follow the Orthodox tradition on this matter, I believe Orthodoxy in America would look quite different (as would this forum).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 04:00:59 PM by jah777 »

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2013, 03:59:36 PM »
While in the Byzantine Rite, Wednesdays are days of fasting rather than just abstinence, it is my impression that most of those on the Byzantine Rite actually observe all fasting days as if they were days of abstinence according to the Western Rite calendar.  In other words, while traditionally strict fast days (Wednesdays, Fridays, all week days during Lent, etc.) in the Orthodox Church were observed with a single meal taken after the ninth hour (3pm).  In our day, it is rare to find anyone who limits the number of meals as well as the type of food.  If the majority did follow the Orthodox tradition on this matter, I believe Orthodoxy in America would look quite different (as would this forum).

How so? 
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2013, 04:01:43 PM »
I want to be WR so bad. Especially now that it's Advent. :P
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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2013, 04:07:50 PM »
I want to be WR so bad. Especially now that it's Advent. :P

+1

The only Advent that can compare with Syriac Advent is Roman Advent (Milanese Advent, which is even better than Roman Advent, is unfortunately not as widespread). 
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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2013, 05:16:06 PM »
While in the Byzantine Rite, Wednesdays are days of fasting rather than just abstinence, it is my impression that most of those on the Byzantine Rite actually observe all fasting days as if they were days of abstinence according to the Western Rite calendar.  In other words, while traditionally strict fast days (Wednesdays, Fridays, all week days during Lent, etc.) in the Orthodox Church were observed with a single meal taken after the ninth hour (3pm).  In our day, it is rare to find anyone who limits the number of meals as well as the type of food.  If the majority did follow the Orthodox tradition on this matter, I believe Orthodoxy in America would look quite different (as would this forum).

How so? 

I think that people on this forum would be more sober and devout if they were called to practice their faith as did their saintly forefathers. Actually, most of the sober Orthodox Christians do not post on Internet Forums.
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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2013, 06:19:16 PM »
I love Holy Week and Easter but, man, there is nothing like Advent in the Western tradition. I am so thankful I get to experience the full joys of this season in the Western manner, and be Orthodox too :)

I'm a bit puzzled that the Byzantine fasting tradition would be considered more austere than the old Western tradition. Every single Eastern Rite person I know (in real life) just basically goes vegetarian for fasting, with no thought towards the quantity of food. Is this not the norm or how it's "supposed" to be done? Less food is by far the more difficult challenge, in my most humble opinion.

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2013, 06:59:02 PM »
I'm a bit puzzled that the Byzantine fasting tradition would be considered more austere than the old Western tradition. Every single Eastern Rite person I know (in real life) just basically goes vegetarian for fasting, with no thought towards the quantity of food. Is this not the norm or how it's "supposed" to be done? Less food is by far the more difficult challenge, in my most humble opinion.

What jah777 wrote reflects my own experience.  Fasting days are supposed to involve a restriction on amount as well as type of food.  Most of the EO I know simply limit the type of food without consideration of amount, but traditionally it is not so.  Perhaps others follow the more traditional practice he described.   

We (OO), again in my experience, are taught to fast from all food and drink until 3pm, if not until sunset, and then it's one meal for the day.  The most economy I've ever heard of was to allow breaking the fast at noon and allow a second small meal sometime after that, but barring sickness, pregnancy, or other mitigating factors, there is at least some period of time each fasting day in which even water is not allowed. 
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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2013, 09:23:37 AM »
The following quote is interesting:

Quote
Those who desire to imitate more austere fasting practices, such as those of the Byzantine Rite, should do so only after consulting with their Father Confessor.

http://www.holyincarnation.org/pub/fasting-abstinence.pdf

While in the Byzantine Rite, Wednesdays are days of fasting rather than just abstinence, it is my impression that most of those on the Byzantine Rite actually observe all fasting days as if they were days of abstinence according to the Western Rite calendar.  In other words, while traditionally strict fast days (Wednesdays, Fridays, all week days during Lent, etc.) in the Orthodox Church were observed with a single meal taken after the ninth hour (3pm), in our day it is rare to find anyone who limits the number of meals as well as the type of food.  If the majority did follow the Orthodox tradition on this matter, I believe Orthodoxy in America would look quite different (as would this forum).

For better or worse, jah speaks the honest truth.

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2013, 12:00:26 PM »
The following quote is interesting:

Quote
Those who desire to imitate more austere fasting practices, such as those of the Byzantine Rite, should do so only after consulting with their Father Confessor.

http://www.holyincarnation.org/pub/fasting-abstinence.pdf

While in the Byzantine Rite, Wednesdays are days of fasting rather than just abstinence, it is my impression that most of those on the Byzantine Rite actually observe all fasting days as if they were days of abstinence according to the Western Rite calendar.  In other words, while traditionally strict fast days (Wednesdays, Fridays, all week days during Lent, etc.) in the Orthodox Church were observed with a single meal taken after the ninth hour (3pm), in our day it is rare to find anyone who limits the number of meals as well as the type of food.  If the majority did follow the Orthodox tradition on this matter, I believe Orthodoxy in America would look quite different (as would this forum).

Coming from a western background I've always struggled with this idea that seems to be prevalent in the east that as long as the meal doesn't have meat or dairy you can eat as much as you want and still say you're fasting
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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2013, 12:31:24 PM »
Coming from a western background I've always struggled with this idea that seems to be prevalent in the east that as long as the meal doesn't have meat or dairy you can eat as much as you want and still say you're fasting

Generally speaking, this idea is called laziness.  In some cases, however, it can be economy.
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2013, 09:58:52 AM »
I think the fasting rules listed on Holy Incarnation's website need to be updated. It lists Lenten fasting days as being "fasting without abstinence" except Fridays where it's both. However, the Ordo for 2013 officially says, "Fasting includes that of Abstinence, and adds special requirements of its own. It affects both the kind and the quantity of food. On Fasting days, besides the obligation of abstaining from flesh-meat, the number and quantity of meals are restricted." It goes on to say, "DAYS OF FASTING include:

1. Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays in Advent;
2. Every day in Lent (Sundays excepted);"

Just wanted to clarify that :) This seems to bring the Western fasting rules more in line with the Eastern, no?

Offline James2

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2013, 12:01:07 PM »
Coming from a western background I've always struggled with this idea that seems to be prevalent in the east that as long as the meal doesn't have meat or dairy you can eat as much as you want and still say you're fasting

Generally speaking, this idea is called laziness.  In some cases, however, it can be economy.

Realistically speaking, most laypeople are not spiritual athletes.  To expect them to observe fasting at a near-monastic level on so many days and lead active adult lives is asking too much.  The guidelines need to be modified.  The situation is analogous to the RC birth control rules - honored more in the breach than in the observance.

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2013, 01:47:16 PM »
Realistically speaking, most laypeople are not spiritual athletes.  To expect them to observe fasting at a near-monastic level on so many days and lead active adult lives is asking too much.  The guidelines need to be modified.  The situation is analogous to the RC birth control rules - honored more in the breach than in the observance.

I guess it depends what you have in mind by "near-monastic levels of fasting".  I'm no "spiritual athlete" myself, I'm more of a spiritual fatty, and most of the active adult laypeople I know are spiritually obese as well.  Yet, we can manage not to eat breakfast on fasting days at the very least (the very idea of eating breakfast on a fasting day is silly).  If someone considers waiting till noon to eat a "near-monastic level of fasting", then they haven't met real monks or nuns (I have stories). 

Of course, people with special needs (e.g., the sick, pregnant and nursing women, small children, people in certain lines of work, etc.) can be dispensed altogether or adjust the fast liberally, but most people can do something a little more than "no meat" without forcing themselves into anchoritism. 

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2013, 06:37:29 PM »
Realistically speaking, most laypeople are not spiritual athletes.  To expect them to observe fasting at a near-monastic level on so many days and lead active adult lives is asking too much.  The guidelines need to be modified.  The situation is analogous to the RC birth control rules - honored more in the breach than in the observance.

I guess it depends what you have in mind by "near-monastic levels of fasting".  I'm no "spiritual athlete" myself, I'm more of a spiritual fatty, and most of the active adult laypeople I know are spiritually obese as well.  Yet, we can manage not to eat breakfast on fasting days at the very least (the very idea of eating breakfast on a fasting day is silly).  If someone considers waiting till noon to eat a "near-monastic level of fasting", then they haven't met real monks or nuns (I have stories). 

Of course, people with special needs (e.g., the sick, pregnant and nursing women, small children, people in certain lines of work, etc.) can be dispensed altogether or adjust the fast liberally, but most people can do something a little more than "no meat" without forcing themselves into anchoritism. 



Once again, Mor nails it.  :D
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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2013, 07:00:17 PM »
Coming from a western background I've always struggled with this idea that seems to be prevalent in the east that as long as the meal doesn't have meat or dairy you can eat as much as you want and still say you're fasting

Generally speaking, this idea is called laziness.  In some cases, however, it can be economy.

I think people are just trying to appear like they're gluttons in order to cover their fasting, lest people think them virtuous and they lose the reward of repentance.
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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2013, 08:16:29 PM »
I think people are just trying to appear like they're gluttons in order to cover their fasting, lest people think them virtuous and they lose the reward of repentance.

This reminds me of something I read in a book about Elder Paisios.  Supposedly, he either told someone not to act holy all the time but rather to commit some sins now and then, or he said he did this himself.  His logic was that if people thought you were holy, they would think you were a saint when you died and they'd never pray for you.  But if you messed up enough, they would say "That guy was pretty good, except for this and that nasty habit", they would presume you were a sinner, and they would pray for you...and that would help you get to heaven eventually. 

I love him.   
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Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2013, 10:38:17 AM »
Coming from a western background I've always struggled with this idea that seems to be prevalent in the east that as long as the meal doesn't have meat or dairy you can eat as much as you want and still say you're fasting

Generally speaking, this idea is called laziness.  In some cases, however, it can be economy.

Realistically speaking, most laypeople are not spiritual athletes.  To expect them to observe fasting at a near-monastic level on so many days and lead active adult lives is asking too much.  The guidelines need to be modified.  The situation is analogous to the RC birth control rules - honored more in the breach than in the observance.

Not really, especially in this day and age when the nature of work has changed so dramatically for many people. (From the farm to the office, et cetera.) But no one should jump into full fasting in any tradition - if the norm is too much, then the confessor can modify it.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2013, 10:15:13 PM »
I think people are just trying to appear like they're gluttons in order to cover their fasting, lest people think them virtuous and they lose the reward of repentance.

This reminds me of something I read in a book about Elder Paisios.  Supposedly, he either told someone not to act holy all the time but rather to commit some sins now and then, or he said he did this himself.  His logic was that if people thought you were holy, they would think you were a saint when you died and they'd never pray for you.  But if you messed up enough, they would say "That guy was pretty good, except for this and that nasty habit", they would presume you were a sinner, and they would pray for you...and that would help you get to heaven eventually. 

I love him.   

Thanks for that. Do you happen to remember the book?
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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: New AWRV Fasting Rules
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2013, 10:30:10 PM »
I wish, but I'm drawing a blank.  I'll try to think harder. 
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