Author Topic: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition  (Read 1859 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2013, 03:29:57 PM »
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/11/video-horrific-sacrilegious-mass/

From the comments:

I read that blog regularly, as well as a couple of other more conservative RC blogs.  It's always entertaining to hear them talk about Orthodoxy.  Most likely, they'd get a kick out of our conversations on RCism. 
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2013, 03:30:18 PM »
Hmm. Some of the comments at the blog suggest that this may have actually been a Lutheran service, but either way it's just awful. Inexcusably bad. It wouldn't even make a good circus, which is odd because it seems like that's what they modeled it after.

Kinderhilfe-Bethlemen is a Roman Catholic group.  This is, sadly, what it appears to be.

They found his website. He even did a bumper car Mass.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2013, 04:28:17 PM »
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In the Old World, is the epistle ever read facing the congregation?
Always in my experience.I suspect that the reading of the epistle ad orientem is more of a case of being more catholic than the pope, so to speak.

We definitely attended different churches. But I don't presume to speak for all of the "Old World"...

Offline brastaseptim

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2013, 04:33:48 PM »
Hmm. Some of the comments at the blog suggest that this may have actually been a Lutheran service, but either way it's just awful. Inexcusably bad. It wouldn't even make a good circus, which is odd because it seems like that's what they modeled it after.

Kinderhilfe-Bethlemen is a Roman Catholic group.  This is, sadly, what it appears to be.

They found his website. He even did a bumper car Mass.

Lord have Mercy, more nightmare fuel...
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2013, 06:37:40 PM »
Before we get all start trumpeting our own horns on the Byzantine Rite and how it has remained immune from such abuses as these described here, someone on OC.net several years ago stated that at a Ukrainian parish (if memory serves), during the Liturgy for Christ's Nativity, the antiphons were replaced by western Christmas carols such as "Little Drummer Boy."  I know that this is the exception that proves the rule, but even the Byzantine Rite can suffer from corruptions because of errant priests.  That's how it starts.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2013, 06:56:34 PM »
Before we get all start trumpeting our own horns on the Byzantine Rite and how it has remained immune from such abuses as these described here, someone on OC.net several years ago stated that at a Ukrainian parish (if memory serves), during the Liturgy for Christ's Nativity, the antiphons were replaced by western Christmas carols such as "Little Drummer Boy."  I know that this is the exception that proves the rule, but even the Byzantine Rite can suffer from corruptions because of errant priests.  That's how it starts.

.... but such errors rarely last very long, especially if there are yiayies and babushki in the congregation.  ;)
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Offline Rufus

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2013, 07:15:13 PM »
Before we get all start trumpeting our own horns on the Byzantine Rite and how it has remained immune from such abuses as these described here, someone on OC.net several years ago stated that at a Ukrainian parish (if memory serves), during the Liturgy for Christ's Nativity, the antiphons were replaced by western Christmas carols such as "Little Drummer Boy."  I know that this is the exception that proves the rule, but even the Byzantine Rite can suffer from corruptions because of errant priests.  That's how it starts.

It starts from the underlying thoughts, assumptions, and ways of relating to the world that people have in a given era. Eventually, these implicit causes cannot help but express themselves through people's actions. This is constantly happening in all realms of society, including the Orthodox Church.

Offline mike

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2013, 07:43:04 PM »
Also, I've never seen anyone read the epistle facing towards the altar in the US. In the Old World, is the epistle ever read facing the congregation?

Never seen that.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2013, 09:05:45 PM »
The Byzantine equivalent would be a nationalistic  liturgy . I'm on my phone so I can't really search for examples. But they exist.

Right.  Bad liturgy is bad liturgy, and the Orthodox are not immune.

Not immune? They'd at least know better than to try having belly dancers and contortionists perform at a DL (EO or OO). The seismic fallout would be off the scale.

No, please don't invite videos of belly dancing at Orthodox Liturgies.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2013, 09:06:21 PM »
Not immune? They'd at least know better than to try having belly dancers and contortionists perform at a DL (EO or OO). The seismic fallout would be off the scale.

No, we are not immune from bad liturgy.  We may very well be immune from absolutely-horrendous-God-will-have-more-mercy-on-Sodom-and-Gomorrah-than-on-this-generation liturgy, however. 

Not you, too.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2013, 09:09:07 PM »
The Byzantine equivalent would be a nationalistic  liturgy . I'm on my phone so I can't really search for examples. But they exist.

Right.  Bad liturgy is bad liturgy, and the Orthodox are not immune.

Not immune? They'd at least know better than to try having belly dancers and contortionists perform at a DL (EO or OO). The seismic fallout would be off the scale.

I've lived through some pretty wicked liturgical abuses as they call them on the internet.
Let's start with processing around the church with a baby Jesus statue on Nativity and then the priest laying said statue on the altar.  This is done in the RCC in the 1962 missal on Christmas, that's where the priest got it from.
Let's add litanies that don't exist.  Let's add the priest reading the Gospel and changing the words. Let's add the priest allowing laity to consume the gifts after liturgy because the priest didn't want to.  Let's add the priest saying at the great entrance "all true believing Christians" as to not offend non Orthodox at liturgy.  Let's all skipped parts of the liturgy, including the Only Begotten Son. Oh i've seen lots of mishaps.  The text is solid, not blaming that.
Also let's get technical.
If a tonsured reader is present guess who should read the Epistle? That would be the reader.
During services that say "Reader" for a part in the text guess who should say that part?  The would be the reader.
So that is just a small list.
How about incensing during the epistle reading? That's not correct either. That was done because the full Alleleuias weren't done and the priest had to cense during the epistle so there wasn't a pause going into the Gospel.
What about reading the Gospel and Epistle not facing the congregation? That isn't correct either.



I thought the direction the reader faced while reading the Epistle depending on the jurisdiction.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2013, 09:10:28 PM »
Quote
Let's add litanies that don't exist.

From time to time, bishops authorize the chanting of specific petitions in the Litany of Fervent Supplication, which can be found in the Book of Needs, such as in times of fire, flood, other calamity, and, most commonly, for those who are ill, where they are audibly commemorated by name.

Never heard those, but I've heard plenty of others. (Then there are the horrid things composed by holy synods.)
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2013, 09:13:22 PM »
The Byzantine equivalent would be a nationalistic  liturgy . I'm on my phone so I can't really search for examples. But they exist.

Let me guess, something like anthem singing, flag waving and President praising?

And a sermon on Kosovo.

It wasn't a sermon, but I was present in a Greek church where a letter from the metropolitan was read about FYROM/Macedonia. I thought it was a ridiculous waste of spiritual resources because the letter said nothing of the church situation there, only the political one.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2013, 09:14:53 PM »
Report him and his practices to the bishop.


____________________________________________________________

(It's customary in Greek practice, for the priest to cense during the Epistle.)

It happens often enough in Slavic practice as well. It's almost inevitable when a single priest is serving, without a concelebrating priest or a deacon.

The whole thing that gets me about incensing during  the Epistle is the priest says "Wisdom let us attend" and then starts incensing as the Epistle is read.  I'd say people hearing  the Epistle should have precedence over censing.  Although a lot of priests I have seen cense without the bells jingling.

+1
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Offline LBK

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2013, 09:38:58 PM »
Also, I've never seen anyone read the epistle facing towards the altar in the US. In the Old World, is the epistle ever read facing the congregation?

Never seen that.

Likewise, in my experience. It's either been from the right kliros (Greek), or facing the altar, standing in the (almost) middle of the nave (Slavic). Never facing the congregation, as one would do when reading the Gospel.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 09:39:53 PM by LBK »
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Offline mike

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2013, 09:42:24 PM »
Deacons also face altar while reading the Gospel.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2013, 10:00:51 PM »
Deacons also face altar while reading the Gospel.

I'm referring to when priests serve alone, which is very common, both in the "old countries", and in the diaspora.
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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2013, 03:37:01 PM »
Alone without any laity present or alone as in no altar servers but laity
In the pews?

Offline LBK

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2013, 06:22:10 PM »
Alone without any laity present or alone as in no altar servers but laity
In the pews?

"Alone" as in "without a deacon or other concelebrating priest".

In my neck of the woods, only one of the two dozen or so Orthodox churches ever had a deacon, and he had died by the time I had cause to attend there regularly, though I've heard that one of the Greek parishes might now have a deacon.
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Offline mike

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2013, 06:30:11 PM »
We had a Georgian deacon recently. That was though.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Thank God We Have The Byzantine Tradition
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2013, 11:29:56 PM »
Alone without any laity present or alone as in no altar servers but laity
In the pews?

"Alone" as in "without a deacon or other concelebrating priest".

In my neck of the woods, only one of the two dozen or so Orthodox churches ever had a deacon, and he had died by the time I had cause to attend there regularly, though I've heard that one of the Greek parishes might now have a deacon.

Yeah, I never once saw a deacon in the Mass (apparently I'm around Catholics a bit too much) Liturgy until I recently moved to a new parish. This one has two priests and a deacon.