Author Topic: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary  (Read 13103 times)

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Offline brastaseptim

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2013, 03:33:30 PM »
Considering Islam is a heresy, I don't really see the difference, considering Shia is a heresy of a heresy of a heresy...

So Islam is part of Christianity?

Islam was likely derived from a combination of Judaism, Muhammad's own ideas, and various strains of Arianism and other early heresies.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2013, 04:10:03 PM »
Nobody worships the true God outside of Christianity
Ask me about the time me and celticfan worshiped the true Orthodox conception of the Trinity.

I'd rather ask you about your avatar and the personal text under it, and I'm not even remotely interested in that.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2013, 05:55:11 PM »
Eh. It fits in well with Islam's blasphemy concerning everything else. ::)
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2013, 06:13:30 PM »
I think it's more useful to concentrate on the masses of Muslims who revere St. Mary.  They still confess her as the VIRGIN mother of Christ.  The miracle of a human being born of a woman without a human father is dogmatic in Islam, and it ONLY happens with Jesus.  One can discuss why that is so.  Why is Jesus and His mother so special in the Quran?  That's a much more inviting discussion with Muslims than attacking their beliefs that are evident in some aHadiths.

Or forget the reason for St. Mary's virginity.  But then why the birth out of her virginity?  Who is Jesus that he be the only human being to be born of a virgin?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 06:15:10 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2013, 06:15:29 PM »
I think it's more useful to concentrate on the masses of Muslims who revere St. Mary.  They still confess her as the VIRGIN mother of Christ.  The miracle of a human being born of a woman without a human father is dogmatic in Islam, and it ONLY happens with Jesus.  One can discuss why that is so.  Why is Jesus and His mother so special in the Quran?  That's a much more inviting discussion with Muslims than attacking their beliefs that are evident in some aHadiths.

Yet Muslims always teach that Adam's creation without a father and mother was a far greater miracle than Yeshua's birth.  ::)
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2013, 06:17:14 PM »
I think it's more useful to concentrate on the masses of Muslims who revere St. Mary.  They still confess her as the VIRGIN mother of Christ.  The miracle of a human being born of a woman without a human father is dogmatic in Islam, and it ONLY happens with Jesus.  One can discuss why that is so.  Why is Jesus and His mother so special in the Quran?  That's a much more inviting discussion with Muslims than attacking their beliefs that are evident in some aHadiths.

Yet Muslims always teach that Adam's creation without a father and mother was a far greater miracle than Yeshua's birth.  ::)

True...but Adam is a progenitor.  Why is Yeshua, who is in the middle of human progeny, so special?
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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2013, 06:21:50 PM »
I remember reading a news about Anglicans having a play about gay Jesus and Muslims protesting against it.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2013, 06:24:14 PM »

True...but Adam is a progenitor.  Why is Yeshua, who is in the middle of human progeny, so special?

The Islamic argument comes down to "Allah knows best" and "Allah wished so".  ;)

Ibn Kathir on this miracle:

Quote
Allah tells us about His servant and Messenger `Isa bin Maryam, peace be upon them both, and that He made them as a sign for mankind, i.e., definitive proof of His ability to do what He wills. For He created Adam without a father or a mother, He created Hawwa' from a male without a female, and He created `Isa from a female without a male, but He created the rest of mankind from both male and female.

Answer to Ibn Kathir:

If this interpretation is true, we are left with the question WHY God created Jesus from a female without a father? Another relevant question: When will Allah create a female from a female without a male to prove his omnipotence? When will he create a female without both a mother and father? When will he create a male from a male without a female? If Jesus’ birth had been made miraculous as a result of Allah’s wish to give a different version of the creations that did not require the agency of both genders, why was it preceded by the miraculous birth of John, who was born of a father and mother? Ibn Kathir and the Islamic scripture cannot give answers to any of these questions. http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/jesus_miracles_quran1.html
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2013, 07:11:13 PM »

True...but Adam is a progenitor.  Why is Yeshua, who is in the middle of human progeny, so special?

The Islamic argument comes down to "Allah knows best" and "Allah wished so".  ;)

Ibn Kathir on this miracle:

Quote
Allah tells us about His servant and Messenger `Isa bin Maryam, peace be upon them both, and that He made them as a sign for mankind, i.e., definitive proof of His ability to do what He wills. For He created Adam without a father or a mother, He created Hawwa' from a male without a female, and He created `Isa from a female without a male, but He created the rest of mankind from both male and female.

Answer to Ibn Kathir:

If this interpretation is true, we are left with the question WHY God created Jesus from a female without a father? Another relevant question: When will Allah create a female from a female without a male to prove his omnipotence? When will he create a female without both a mother and father? When will he create a male from a male without a female? If Jesus’ birth had been made miraculous as a result of Allah’s wish to give a different version of the creations that did not require the agency of both genders, why was it preceded by the miraculous birth of John, who was born of a father and mother? Ibn Kathir and the Islamic scripture cannot give answers to any of these questions. http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/jesus_miracles_quran1.html

Seems to me like Adam and Eve, Jesus is also a progenitor of sorts  ;)
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2013, 07:13:14 PM »

True...but Adam is a progenitor.  Why is Yeshua, who is in the middle of human progeny, so special?

The Islamic argument comes down to "Allah knows best" and "Allah wished so".  ;)

Ibn Kathir on this miracle:

Quote
Allah tells us about His servant and Messenger `Isa bin Maryam, peace be upon them both, and that He made them as a sign for mankind, i.e., definitive proof of His ability to do what He wills. For He created Adam without a father or a mother, He created Hawwa' from a male without a female, and He created `Isa from a female without a male, but He created the rest of mankind from both male and female.

Answer to Ibn Kathir:

If this interpretation is true, we are left with the question WHY God created Jesus from a female without a father? Another relevant question: When will Allah create a female from a female without a male to prove his omnipotence? When will he create a female without both a mother and father? When will he create a male from a male without a female? If Jesus’ birth had been made miraculous as a result of Allah’s wish to give a different version of the creations that did not require the agency of both genders, why was it preceded by the miraculous birth of John, who was born of a father and mother? Ibn Kathir and the Islamic scripture cannot give answers to any of these questions. http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/jesus_miracles_quran1.html

Seems to me like Adam and Eve, Jesus is also a progenitor of sorts  ;)

The new and spiritual Adam, the head of the Church.  ;)
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Offline Math lover

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2013, 12:15:23 PM »
What is it with your obsession with Islam? The Jews that you love so much blaspheme the Theotokos even more.

Shalom, Cyrillic!

What is it with your obsession with Judaism and the Jews? The Muslims you prefer to the Jews consider the title Theotokos abominable and designate both Yeshua and His blessed mother as worthless idols:

Quote
They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. (Surah 5:17)

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! Say: Serve ye in place of Allah that which possesseth for you neither hurt nor use? Allah it is Who is the Hearer, the Knower. (Surah 5:75-76)

The Jews at least worship the one true God of Israel whereas the Ishmaelites worship the false god of Arabia.  ;)

Ugiainein, Theophilos.

At least the Muslims call Mary a saintly women. The Jews use rather different, harsher, words for her. The Muslims, as far as I know, regard Christ as a holy man, a prophet and even the messiah. The Jews don't and instead slander Christ and heap the most vile abuses upon Him.

I think it's rather hypocritical to hate the Muslims for not appreciating Christ and His mother enough whilst liking the Jews.

That's not quite true.

Watched it, seems he's implying that the Bible accuse Mary of adultery and that the only the Qur'an cleansed her from this false charge.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2013, 09:32:53 AM »

Watched it, seems he's implying that the Bible accuse Mary of adultery and that the only the Qur'an cleansed her from this false charge.

That shows he is ignorant of both the Bible and the Qur'an.  ::)

Miryam is never accused of adultery in the New Testament. However, the author of the Qur'an claimed that Miryam the daughter of Amram was accused by her folk when she gave birth to Yeshua and made use of this claim in his essentially anti-Jewish propaganda. More interestingly, the narrative of Miryam's accusation in the Qur'an was adopted from the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, an important document of Christian yet apocryphal literature.

Suggested reading: http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/rebuttals/zawadi/infancy_gospels.html
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2013, 10:20:04 AM »
What is it with your obsession with Islam? The Jews that you love so much blaspheme the Theotokos even more.

Shalom, Cyrillic!

What is it with your obsession with Judaism and the Jews? The Muslims you prefer to the Jews consider the title Theotokos abominable and designate both Yeshua and His blessed mother as worthless idols:

Quote
They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. (Surah 5:17)

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! Say: Serve ye in place of Allah that which possesseth for you neither hurt nor use? Allah it is Who is the Hearer, the Knower. (Surah 5:75-76)

The Jews at least worship the one true God of Israel whereas the Ishmaelites worship the false god of Arabia.  ;)

Ugiainein, Theophilos.

At least the Muslims call Mary a saintly women. The Jews use rather different, harsher, words for her. The Muslims, as far as I know, regard Christ as a holy man, a prophet and even the messiah. The Jews don't and instead slander Christ and heap the most vile abuses upon Him.

I think it's rather hypocritical to hate the Muslims for not appreciating Christ and His mother enough whilst liking the Jews.

That's not quite true.

Watched it, seems he's implying that the Bible accuse Mary of adultery and that the only the Qur'an cleansed her from this false charge.

Of course. But the Bible doesn't do that. So not only does it show how quickly he is to accuse Jesus of being Valad e-Zina but it also shows his ignorance of Christianity and the Bible.

BTW. Fatimah's light did not create the heavens and the earth.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 10:20:31 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2013, 05:26:20 PM »
In Sayyid Abu al-Mawdudi's tafsir related to surah 5:116 there is a footnote with the false teaching that the Theotokos is worshipped by christians as a goddess and that christians are polytheists.

Here :

"the christians were not content merely with deifying Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They even turned Mary, the mother of Jesus, into a full-fledged object of worship. The Bible does not contain even the remotest suggestion that Mary was in any way either divine or superhuman. During the first three centuries after the Messiah, such a concept was totally alien to christian thinking. Towards the end of the third century of the christian era, however, some theologians of Alexandria employed, for the first time, the expression "MOTHER OF GOD"  in connection with Mary. Subsequently, belief in Mary's DIVINITY and the practice of Mariolatry spread among christians".

source: "Towards understanding the Quran" (abridged), Sayyid Mawdudi; page 183 footnote 57.

in the full version there is also :

[..] "As a result `Mariolatry' began to spread by leaps and bounds both inside and outside the Church. So much so that by the time the Qur'an was revealed, the exaltation of the 'Mother of God' had eclipsed the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost."

and he also blames emperor Heraclius for having the Theotokos in his banner

::)
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2013, 05:32:33 PM »
It's one of those cases where it makes you wonder why many of the "Christian converts" to Islam come from Protestantism.

I read a fictional dialogue somewhere between a Catholic and a Muslim, where a Catholic stumps the Muslim by using anti-Protestant polemics, and not engaging in Church history and tradition.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 05:33:21 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Math lover

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2013, 08:22:27 PM »
In Sayyid Abu al-Mawdudi's tafsir related to surah 5:116 there is a footnote with the false teaching that the Theotokos is worshipped by christians as a goddess and that christians are polytheists.

Here :

"the christians were not content merely with deifying Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They even turned Mary, the mother of Jesus, into a full-fledged object of worship. The Bible does not contain even the remotest suggestion that Mary was in any way either divine or superhuman. During the first three centuries after the Messiah, such a concept was totally alien to christian thinking. Towards the end of the third century of the christian era, however, some theologians of Alexandria employed, for the first time, the expression "MOTHER OF GOD"  in connection with Mary. Subsequently, belief in Mary's DIVINITY and the practice of Mariolatry spread among christians".

source: "Towards understanding the Quran" (abridged), Sayyid Mawdudi; page 183 footnote 57.

in the full version there is also :

[..] "As a result `Mariolatry' began to spread by leaps and bounds both inside and outside the Church. So much so that by the time the Qur'an was revealed, the exaltation of the 'Mother of God' had eclipsed the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost."

and he also blames emperor Heraclius for having the Theotokos in his banner

::)

Or maybe the Qur'an is condemning calling Mary the mother of God.

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2013, 08:30:17 PM »
It's one of those cases where it makes you wonder why many of the "Christian converts" to Islam come from Protestantism.

I read a fictional dialogue somewhere between a Catholic and a Muslim, where a Catholic stumps the Muslim by using anti-Protestant polemics, and not engaging in Church history and tradition.

I would doubt it. They would just talk past each other. I've literally heard that dialog more than a few times.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2013, 09:02:15 PM »

The Talmud is an integral part of Judaism. Shia is an Islamic heresy with only a small minority of Muslims adhering to it. Do you see the difference?

If Talmud were so essential to Judaism, it would be considered holy scripture.

Umm...it pretty much is.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2013, 09:29:47 PM »
Eh. It fits in well with Islam's blasphemy concerning everything else. ::)

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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2013, 08:21:18 AM »

Or maybe the Qur'an is condemning calling Mary the mother of God.

This is not stated in the Qur'an. The author of the Qur'an only accused Christians of worshipping Miryam and Yeshua as two gods beside Elohim, but did not explain the reason for this charge.

More to the point, calling Miryam the Mother of God does not automatically make her a goddess or deity. If that were the case, calling Miryam the Mother of Messiah would turn her into a second Messiah. Are we free to blame Muslims for considering Amina a prophetess because they call her the Mother of the Messenger?  ::)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 08:22:02 AM by Theophilos78 »
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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2013, 09:44:59 AM »
Considering Islam is a heresy, I don't really see the difference, considering Shia is a heresy of a heresy of a heresy...

So Islam is part of Christianity?

Islam was likely derived from a combination of Judaism, Muhammad's own ideas, and various strains of Arianism and other early heresies.

Not sure of the accuracy of this myself, but I heard somewhere that Muhammad's parents were respectively Christian and Jewish? Though this could be partly or entirely wrong.

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2013, 10:00:50 AM »
Nobody worships the true God outside of Christianity, as they must step outside of their flawed religious systems to do so, given the very same constraints those religions put on their worship (e.g., to be a Muslim or a Jew, you cannot accept the divinity of Christ). As our father St. Athanasius the Apostolic, pillar of Orthodoxy, wrote in his unsurpassed treatise on the incarnation, "all Scripture teems with disproof of Jewish unbelief."

Jews are unbelievers not any less than Muslims are.

*standing ovation* Thank you!  :laugh:

Amen ! well stated

Offline Math lover

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2013, 11:05:43 AM »

Or maybe the Qur'an is condemning calling Mary the mother of God.

This is not stated in the Qur'an. The author of the Qur'an only accused Christians of worshipping Miryam and Yeshua as two gods beside Elohim, but did not explain the reason for this charge.

More to the point, calling Miryam the Mother of God does not automatically make her a goddess or deity. If that were the case, calling Miryam the Mother of Messiah would turn her into a second Messiah. Are we free to blame Muslims for considering Amina a prophetess because they call her the Mother of the Messenger?  ::)

Messiahs are human beings, gods aren't.

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2013, 01:19:18 PM »
Messiahs are human beings, gods aren't.

You did not understand my point.  ::)

If being the mother of God makes Miryam a goddess, being the mother of the Messiah makes her a Messiah.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2013, 01:28:42 PM »

Or maybe the Qur'an is condemning calling Mary the mother of God.

This is not stated in the Qur'an. The author of the Qur'an only accused Christians of worshipping Miryam and Yeshua as two gods beside Elohim, but did not explain the reason for this charge.

More to the point, calling Miryam the Mother of God does not automatically make her a goddess or deity. If that were the case, calling Miryam the Mother of Messiah would turn her into a second Messiah. Are we free to blame Muslims for considering Amina a prophetess because they call her the Mother of the Messenger?  ::)

Messiahs are human beings, gods aren't.

Says you. The Transfiguration put to rest the erroneous expectation common to the Jews by revealing the Christ (which is the Greek translation of "Messiah") to be the Son of God.

You are wrong, God is right. The end.


Offline minasoliman

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2013, 01:43:58 PM »

Or maybe the Qur'an is condemning calling Mary the mother of God.

This is not stated in the Qur'an. The author of the Qur'an only accused Christians of worshipping Miryam and Yeshua as two gods beside Elohim, but did not explain the reason for this charge.

More to the point, calling Miryam the Mother of God does not automatically make her a goddess or deity. If that were the case, calling Miryam the Mother of Messiah would turn her into a second Messiah. Are we free to blame Muslims for considering Amina a prophetess because they call her the Mother of the Messenger?  ::)

Messiahs are human beings, gods aren't.
What is a Messiah according to Islamic thought?  What makes any human a "Messiah"?  Has there been any other Messiah besides Jesus?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 01:44:26 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2013, 02:08:00 PM »
What is a Messiah according to Islamic thought?  What makes any human a "Messiah"?  Has there been any other Messiah besides Jesus?

Muslims do not know the meaning of the term Messiah. They likewise do not know why Yeshua and only Yeshua was called al-Masih (the Messiah) in the Qur'an. The interesting fact is that this term first appeared in the Qur'an in the post-migration period and as a title or surname attached to Yeshua's name at the annunciation of His birth. Yeshua was not called Messiah in any of the Meccan chapters. It is highly likely that Muhammad became aware of this term later (upon hearing it from Christians) and incorporated it into Yeshua's nativity account without caring about its meaning or theological implications in either Judaism or Christianity.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2013, 02:18:08 PM »

Or maybe the Qur'an is condemning calling Mary the mother of God.

This is not stated in the Qur'an. The author of the Qur'an only accused Christians of worshipping Miryam and Yeshua as two gods beside Elohim, but did not explain the reason for this charge.

More to the point, calling Miryam the Mother of God does not automatically make her a goddess or deity. If that were the case, calling Miryam the Mother of Messiah would turn her into a second Messiah. Are we free to blame Muslims for considering Amina a prophetess because they call her the Mother of the Messenger?  ::)

Messiahs are human beings, gods aren't.

Since most Christians believe Jesus is true God AND true man, the Messiahship applies.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 02:45:51 PM by JoeS2 »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2013, 02:43:42 PM »
What is a Messiah according to Islamic thought?  What makes any human a "Messiah"?  Has there been any other Messiah besides Jesus?

Muslims do not know the meaning of the term Messiah. They likewise do not know why Yeshua and only Yeshua was called al-Masih (the Messiah) in the Qur'an. The interesting fact is that this term first appeared in the Qur'an in the post-migration period and as a title or surname attached to Yeshua's name at the annunciation of His birth. Yeshua was not called Messiah in any of the Meccan chapters. It is highly likely that Muhammad became aware of this term later (upon hearing it from Christians) and incorporated it into Yeshua's nativity account without caring about its meaning or theological implications in either Judaism or Christianity.

I might have already told this story before, but I once asked a Sunni Muslim (a mainstream guy, from Egypt) why 'Isa was called al-Masih in the Qur'an if they don't believe that He is God like we do, since they can't say they keep the original belief of the Jews (like they try to say when rejecting His divinity, to make it look like this is something we "invented"), since the Jews don't consider Him to be the Messiah at all, so it seems like they're kind of "stuck" between two religions in using this term that they clearly don't understand in the same way as either of those religions do. He told me that it is an allusion to Jesus' miracle of healing the blind man by rubbing mud on his eyes, since apparently words from that same root in Arabic (m-s-H) can mean "to rub". I've never confirmed this by looking it up, because I was too busy laughing, but I took him at his word. So apparently 'Isa is or was originally something more like "the Rubber" in Islam, and perhaps later like you said the term became conflated through interactions with Christians and Jews, and of course distorted along the way to fit Islamic theology and/or prophetology.

"The rubber". Hahaha. Even if they mean it as an allusion to only that miracle...sheesh...Islam is just so lame. It's just such a bad copy of what came before it.  ::)

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2013, 02:50:36 PM »
What is a Messiah according to Islamic thought?  What makes any human a "Messiah"?  Has there been any other Messiah besides Jesus?

Muslims do not know the meaning of the term Messiah. They likewise do not know why Yeshua and only Yeshua was called al-Masih (the Messiah) in the Qur'an. The interesting fact is that this term first appeared in the Qur'an in the post-migration period and as a title or surname attached to Yeshua's name at the annunciation of His birth. Yeshua was not called Messiah in any of the Meccan chapters. It is highly likely that Muhammad became aware of this term later (upon hearing it from Christians) and incorporated it into Yeshua's nativity account without caring about its meaning or theological implications in either Judaism or Christianity.

I might have already told this story before, but I once asked a Sunni Muslim (a mainstream guy, from Egypt) why 'Isa was called al-Masih in the Qur'an if they don't believe that He is God like we do, since they can't say they keep the original belief of the Jews (like they try to say when rejecting His divinity, to make it look like this is something we "invented"), since the Jews don't consider Him to be the Messiah at all, so it seems like they're kind of "stuck" between two religions in using this term that they clearly don't understand in the same way as either of those religions do. He told me that it is an allusion to Jesus' miracle of healing the blind man by rubbing mud on his eyes, since apparently words from that same root in Arabic (m-s-H) can mean "to rub". I've never confirmed this by looking it up, because I was too busy laughing, but I took him at his word. So apparently 'Isa is or was originally something more like "the Rubber" in Islam, and perhaps later like you said the term became conflated through interactions with Christians and Jews, and of course distorted along the way to fit Islamic theology and/or prophetology.

"The rubber". Hahaha. Even if they mean it as an allusion to only that miracle...sheesh...Islam is just so lame. It's just such a bad copy of what came before it.  ::)

The philology is interesting.  Yes, "m-s-h" is rubbing OFF something.  Many times I'm told to "erase" a page "im-sa-ha".  But this is not the same as maseeeeeeeeh" (I exaggerated the long e).  That's like saying "Islam" means peace, when any person with an inkling of honest can tell the difference between "tislam" and "salam", the former meaning submission and the latter meaning peace.  I'm not saying "Islam" is a bad word.  We believe in submission too.  But I'm saying dishonest arguments like that makes one wonder.  So just as the vowel between the s and l changes the meaning between islam and salam, so does the vowel between the s and h in msh and masih.

The philology also doesn't explain why there has to be an "anti-Christ" in the end of days.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 02:53:20 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Islamic blasphemy concerning Virgin Mary
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2013, 03:07:23 PM »

The philology also doesn't explain why there has to be an "anti-Christ" in the end of days.

The anti-Christ is called Dajjal (liar) in Islamic tradition.

Ibn Abbas proposed two possibilities with regard to the meaning of Messiah:

(whose name is the Messiah) because he travels from one country to another; it is also said: the Messiah means the king... http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=45&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

The second explanation seems closer to the meaning of the term in Judaism and Christianity.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 03:09:40 PM by Theophilos78 »
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