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Poll
Question: As the Protestants commemorate today as the start of their Reformation, how do you, as an Orthodox Christian, commemorate this day?
Ask: "What's a reformation?" - 2 (9.5%)
Go to Protestant Churches and yell "Damn Rebels!" - 1 (4.8%)
Demand your bishop or archbishop anathematize them - 0 (0%)
Thank as many of them as possible. After all, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, right? - 1 (4.8%)
Don't do anything. It's Halloween and I'm going trick-or-treating - 13 (61.9%)
Rub it in the Catholics' faces - 1 (4.8%)
Post all Protestant heresies on the internet because that's never been done before - 0 (0%)
Post about how Luther was really intent on being Orthodox but was lead astray - 3 (14.3%)
Total Voters: 16

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Author Topic: Orthodox Christians and the Protestant Reformation  (Read 2529 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 01, 2013, 05:12:40 AM »

Oct. 31, 1517, is the date that Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the cathedral door at Wittenberg.  These 95 propositions, all in Latin, were ostensibly meant to be debated by the theological professors at the university there, which was a medieval practice on the eve before Western All Saints' Day.  So, how do you, as an Orthodox Christian commemorate this day?
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2013, 05:24:29 AM »

Simple, I do not.

Error, innovation and straying away simply accelerated whatever the intentions of the original protestors against the yoke of Rome. An example would be their spiritual descendants lack of regard for the Theotokos compared to their 'founding Fathers'. Quite how folks whose focus is on Scripture came to such an unscriptural position, except they were so busy reacting against Rome they simply increasingly lost their way.

So, nought to celebrate and great puzzlement as to why anyone on an Orthodox Christian forum might even raise this as a concept?

As for the poll, none of the above.
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2013, 09:01:13 AM »

I don't commemorate it. The Protestants are sectarian groups. I don't know why we'd commemorate sectarianism.
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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2013, 09:09:12 AM »

The Reformation had a wonderful start, a disastrous end. I do not commemorate or celebrate it either.
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2013, 10:30:40 AM »

Why would any Orthodox Christian commemorate or celebrate the day on which (Western) Christendom began the process by which it eventually became so fragmented that it shall never again be reconciled this side of the Parousia?  To me, the beginning of the Reformation is one of the saddest days in history if we consider Our Lord's wish that we might be one in Him.  Before the advent of the multifarious Protestant "denominations" - when only the liturgical and Apostolic churches existed - there was at least the hope (however distant and far-fetched) that Christendom might again be reunited.
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2013, 10:36:20 AM »

Why would any Orthodox Christian commemorate or celebrate the day on which (Western) Christendom began the process by which it eventually became so fragmented that it shall never again be reconciled this side of the Parousia?  To me, the beginning of the Reformation is one of the saddest days in history if we consider Our Lord's wish that we might be one in Him.  Before the advent of the multifarious Protestant "denominations" - when only the liturgical and Apostolic churches existed - there was at least the hope (however distant and far-fetched) that Christendom might again be reunited.

Have to agree with you......
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2013, 11:32:44 AM »

Reformation Day was and is unknown in my corner of my former Protestant experience. I've heard more about it since becoming Orthodox than in the fifty years that preceded my chrismation. The celebration of Orthodox feast days has been much more helpful to my spiritual life.
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2013, 11:36:01 AM »

I celebrate by getting Juice Juice grape and saltine crackers.
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2013, 11:36:55 AM »

Reformation Day was and is unknown in my corner of my former Protestant experience. I've heard more about it since becoming Orthodox than in the fifty years that preceded my chrismation.

Unfortunately, we seem to be very good at this. 
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 12:19:26 PM »

I celebrate by getting Juice Juice grape and saltine crackers.
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2013, 02:38:50 PM »

Reformation Day was and is unknown in my corner of my former Protestant experience. I've heard more about it since becoming Orthodox than in the fifty years that preceded my chrismation. The celebration of Orthodox feast days has been much more helpful to my spiritual life.

I only learned about it because of my Catholic Facebook friends...
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2013, 05:20:05 PM »

LOL!
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2013, 05:22:57 PM »

The Reformation had a wonderful start, a disastrous end. I do not commemorate or celebrate it either.

What wonderful start?
What disastrous end?
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2013, 05:51:09 PM »

The Reformation had a wonderful start, a disastrous end. I do not commemorate or celebrate it either.

What wonderful start?
What disastrous end?

Good point. The Reformation never truly ended.
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2013, 05:51:41 PM »

I chose DO NOTHING, except I not doing anything for Halloween.
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2013, 05:53:03 PM »

Why on earth would any Orthodox Christian commemorate (de)reformation day?  Do Native Americans celebrate Thanksgiving?  

What exactly was the benefit of the antics of one soon-to-be excommunicated Catholic priest introducing the notion that if one does not like the rules, one can simply start one's own church, and that causing Christianity to hemorrhage into 32,000 doctrinally distinct sects?  That's damage.  The false church would obviously not be the first church--it would a church yet to come.  Therefore, every church to break off from the first church is not the Church of Christ, and, consequently, a false church.  Why would Orthodox commemorate that?
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2013, 06:05:05 PM »

Why on earth would any Orthodox Christian commemorate (de)reformation day?  Do Native Americans celebrate Thanksgiving?  

What exactly was the benefit of the antics of one soon-to-be excommunicated Catholic priest introducing the notion that if one does not like the rules, one can simply start one's own church,
To be fair to Martin Luther, when he posted his 95 Theses, he sought only to call the Roman Church to reform herself from inside. He did not seek to start his own church. It took Rome excommunicating him to drive him to see that he had no other option.

BTW, the Reformation would not have been necessary if Rome had stayed true to the apostolic faith.
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2013, 06:40:57 PM »


To be fair to Martin Luther, when he posted his 95 Theses, he sought only to call the Roman Church to reform herself from inside. He did not seek to start his own church. It took Rome excommunicating him to drive him to see that he had no other option.

BTW, the Reformation would not have been necessary if Rome had stayed true to the apostolic faith.

+1

And yes, he was trying to reform it.  He didn't want to be excommunicated.  However, I think that's where the root of the problem is--the idea that doctrine can be argued and changed.  Then he broke off and started his own religion.  This is why I find it alarming every time the Catholic Church talks about 'development of doctrine.'  I could be wrong, but if God's unchanging, I think it logically follows that His Church would also be unchanging, re: doctrine.  It's not to be something that changes to keep up with the times (as dumb a reason to change anything as any I've ever heard) or to placate social and political pressure groups.   
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« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2013, 06:55:10 PM »

What doctrinal canges he had in mind?
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« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2013, 08:14:20 PM »

What doctrinal canges he had in mind?

I think all the tampering he did with scripture was damage enough, and I think he was also the first to introduce the notion that we do not have to cooperate with grace.  The 'grace without works' that is core protestant doctrine.
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2013, 10:37:41 PM »

I certaintly recognise it as a turning point in western culture which has ultimately lead to the world we have today for good and for ill.
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2013, 10:43:34 PM »

Quote
And yes, he was trying to reform it.  He didn't want to be excommunicated.  However, I think that's where the root of the problem is--the idea that doctrine can be argued and changed.  Then he broke off and started his own religion.  This is why I find it alarming every time the Catholic Church talks about 'development of doctrine.'  I could be wrong, but if God's unchanging, I think it logically follows that His Church would also be unchanging, re: doctrine.  It's not to be something that changes to keep up with the times (as dumb a reason to change anything as any I've ever heard) or to placate social and political pressure groups. 

Very well stated
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« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2013, 12:14:32 AM »

You need to add an option like "look bemusedly over my spectacles at facebook posts of Protestant friends who know enough history to know there is a Reformation Day and yet still don't know there is an Orthodox Church, and then go back to my tea". (Except in my case it would be soda.)
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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2013, 01:08:32 AM »

Poor Luther.  Maybe if the Orthodox would not have become as worthless in Evangelism and weren't fighting for their lives getting ready to be over-run by Islam, there could have been someone to bring him the truth.
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« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2013, 09:14:53 AM »

Maybe if the Orthodox would not have become as worthless in Evangelism and weren't fighting for their lives getting ready to be over-run by Islam, there could have been someone to bring him the truth.

Other than the "fighting for their lives" bit, this isn't really a fair statement.  Realistically speaking, Western Europe was pretty much the exclusive domain of the Latin Church at this point, and any Orthodox presence in Saxony would have been negligible at best.  The idea that the Orthodox would have been on the spot to pick up on Luther's dissent and take it as an opportunity for evangelism - and that Luther would have been at all receptive - doesn't really wash.  In any event, there was a substantial dialogue between Luther's early disciples and a handful of Orthodox theologians, including Patriarch Jeremias of Constantinople, who offered a point by point reply to the Confession of Augsburg as follows:

Quote
The Confession of Augsburg contains twenty-one articles. Jeremias replied to each in turn, stating wherein he agreed or disagreed with the doctrines contained in them. His comments are valuable, as they add up to a compendium of Orthodox theology at this date.

The first article states the Nicene Creed to be the basis of the true faith. The Patriarch naturally concurred, but pointed out that the Creed should be accepted in its correct form, omitting the Dual Procession of the Holy Ghost, an addition which, as he explains at length, was canonically illegal and doctrinally unsound.

...


Article truncated to comply with forum rules regarding how much of an article can be copied from another web site. The rest of the article can be read by clicking the following link: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_luther.aspx
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There was a correspondence back and forth for a time, and basically, the Lutherans remained unconvinced and unwilling to be corrected on their points of divergence with Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2013, 09:32:06 AM »

My gosh, people, you're taking this waaaaayyyyyyyy to seriously. It's a joke. Ha ha. Move on.
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2013, 02:25:00 PM »

You need to add an option like "look bemusedly over my spectacles at facebook posts of Protestant friends who know enough history to know there is a Reformation Day and yet still don't know there is an Orthodox Church, and then go back to my tea". (Except in my case it would be soda.)

+1

And another one about how the Reformation started in the latter half of the 11th century with Pope Gregory VII and his cronies.
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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2013, 02:26:46 PM »

Poor Luther.  Maybe if the Orthodox would not have become as worthless in Evangelism and weren't fighting for their lives getting ready to be over-run by Islam, there could have been someone to bring him the truth.

Patriarch Jeremias II tried it with the Tübingen theologians, but they were too hung up on wanting to deep and defend the filioque.
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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2013, 02:33:17 PM »

I could be wrong, but if God's unchanging, I think it logically follows that His Church would also be unchanging, re: doctrine.  It's not to be something that changes to keep up with the times (as dumb a reason to change anything as any I've ever heard) or to placate social and political pressure groups.   
Did the Church change its teaching on whether or not women should wear headcovering in Church during liturgy? Or on artificial birth control?
BTW, I am not sure about whether or not God is unchanging. For example, before the Incarnation, in Old Testament times, God did not assume a human body. However, after the Incarnation, God did assume human form.
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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2013, 02:35:41 PM »

I could be wrong, but if God's unchanging, I think it logically follows that His Church would also be unchanging, re: doctrine.  It's not to be something that changes to keep up with the times (as dumb a reason to change anything as any I've ever heard) or to placate social and political pressure groups.  
Did the Church change its teaching on whether or not women should wear headcovering in Church during liturgy? Or on artificial birth control?
BTW, I am not sure about whether or not God is unchanging. For example, before the Incarnation, in Old Testament times, God did not assume a human body. However, after the Incarnation, God did assume human form.

Of course it didn't. Orthodoxy isn't legalistic like Roman Catholicism is. The letter of the law isn't law in the Orthodox Church. Of course God assumed a human form in Old Testament times. Read Genesis 18. This is starting to sound Marcionite.

Birth control is still forbidden and headscarves are still there. But unlike the rigid ideologies of men, there is leeway through Economia (the law of the household) that gives believers freedom to function where they don't have any other choice.

Quote from: Matthew 23:23
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: judgment, mercy, and faith. These ought ye to have done and not to leave the other undone."
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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2013, 02:39:06 PM »

I could be wrong, but if God's unchanging, I think it logically follows that His Church would also be unchanging, re: doctrine.  It's not to be something that changes to keep up with the times (as dumb a reason to change anything as any I've ever heard) or to placate social and political pressure groups.   
Did the Church change its teaching on whether or not women should wear headcovering in Church during liturgy? Or on artificial birth control?
BTW, I am not sure about whether or not God is unchanging. For example, before the Incarnation, in Old Testament times, God did not assume a human body. However, after the Incarnation, God did assume human form.

Of course it didn't.
If it did not change its teaching on whether or not women should wear headcovering at Church, how come I don't see any women wearing such in many Orthodox Churches in the USA?
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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2013, 02:42:17 PM »

My gosh, people, you're taking this waaaaayyyyyyyy to seriously. It's a joke. Ha ha. Move on.
You spelled "too" wrong. Wink To tell a joke, you need to not take yourself too seriously, or else you'll have more than two people mad at you. laugh
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« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2013, 02:43:06 PM »

I could be wrong, but if God's unchanging, I think it logically follows that His Church would also be unchanging, re: doctrine.  It's not to be something that changes to keep up with the times (as dumb a reason to change anything as any I've ever heard) or to placate social and political pressure groups.  
Did the Church change its teaching on whether or not women should wear headcovering in Church during liturgy? Or on artificial birth control?
BTW, I am not sure about whether or not God is unchanging. For example, before the Incarnation, in Old Testament times, God did not assume a human body. However, after the Incarnation, God did assume human form.

Of course it didn't.
If it did not change its teaching on whether or not women should wear headcovering at Church, how come I don't see any women wearing such in many Orthodox Churches in the USA?

You didn't read the whole post. The Orthodox don't follow the letter of the law like Roman Catholics, Jews and Muslims do... well, officially anyway.

I could be wrong, but if God's unchanging, I think it logically follows that His Church would also be unchanging, re: doctrine.  It's not to be something that changes to keep up with the times (as dumb a reason to change anything as any I've ever heard) or to placate social and political pressure groups.   
Did the Church change its teaching on whether or not women should wear headcovering in Church during liturgy? Or on artificial birth control?
BTW, I am not sure about whether or not God is unchanging. For example, before the Incarnation, in Old Testament times, God did not assume a human body. However, after the Incarnation, God did assume human form.

Of course it didn't. Orthodoxy isn't legalistic like Roman Catholicism is. The letter of the law isn't law in the Orthodox Church. Of course God assumed a human form in Old Testament times. Read Genesis 18. This is starting to sound Marcionite.

Birth control is still forbidden and headscarves are still there. But unlike the rigid ideologies of men, there is leeway through Economia (the law of the household) that gives believers freedom to function where they don't have any other choice.

Quote from: Matthew 23:23
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: judgment, mercy, and faith. These ought ye to have done and not to leave the other undone."
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« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2013, 02:47:48 PM »

I could be wrong, but if God's unchanging, I think it logically follows that His Church would also be unchanging, re: doctrine.  It's not to be something that changes to keep up with the times (as dumb a reason to change anything as any I've ever heard) or to placate social and political pressure groups.  
Did the Church change its teaching on whether or not women should wear headcovering in Church during liturgy? Or on artificial birth control?
BTW, I am not sure about whether or not God is unchanging. For example, before the Incarnation, in Old Testament times, God did not assume a human body. However, after the Incarnation, God did assume human form.
Stanley, I know how much you like to argue this point almost every time someone speaks of the lack of doctrinal change in the Orthodox Church. I also recognize that it's off topic for this thread. Therefore, I need you to stop this line of argument here, lest you derail this thread, and take it to another thread where it's on topic.
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« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2013, 03:05:19 PM »

I could be wrong, but if God's unchanging, I think it logically follows that His Church would also be unchanging, re: doctrine.  It's not to be something that changes to keep up with the times (as dumb a reason to change anything as any I've ever heard) or to placate social and political pressure groups.   
Did the Church change its teaching on whether or not women should wear headcovering in Church during liturgy? Or on artificial birth control?
BTW, I am not sure about whether or not God is unchanging. For example, before the Incarnation, in Old Testament times, God did not assume a human body. However, after the Incarnation, God did assume human form.

I would argue that the incarnation is not a change since Christ did not cease to be God.  Even in the hymn "o monogenes" we confess that Christ without change became man.  He took something to Himself which He was not, an addition not a change.
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« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2013, 03:20:28 PM »

I could be wrong, but if God's unchanging, I think it logically follows that His Church would also be unchanging, re: doctrine.  It's not to be something that changes to keep up with the times (as dumb a reason to change anything as any I've ever heard) or to placate social and political pressure groups.   
Did the Church change its teaching on whether or not women should wear headcovering in Church during liturgy? Or on artificial birth control?
BTW, I am not sure about whether or not God is unchanging. For example, before the Incarnation, in Old Testament times, God did not assume a human body. However, after the Incarnation, God did assume human form.

I would argue that the incarnation is not a change since Christ did not cease to be God.  Even in the hymn "o monogenes" we confess that Christ without change became man.  He took something to Himself which He was not, an addition not a change.
Let's not facilitate Stanley's inadvertent attempt to drive this thread off topic. Thank you.
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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2013, 04:41:40 PM »

I learned something new from this thread.

I never heard of "Reformation Day" before.

Seriously, back in the old coal patch,  followed by the rust belt urban ethnic ghetto where we lived while I was growing up, there weren't many admitted Protestants. Folks were either RCC, Orthodox or Greek Catholic. Over the years, honestly I never heard of it.

I suppose it makes sense though that Protestants would remember the event.
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« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2013, 09:29:21 PM »

I learned something new from this thread.

I never heard of "Reformation Day" before.

Seriously, back in the old coal patch,  followed by the rust belt urban ethnic ghetto where we lived while I was growing up, there weren't many admitted Protestants. Folks were either RCC, Orthodox or Greek Catholic. Over the years, honestly I never heard of it.

I suppose it makes sense though that Protestants would remember the event.

I've been around Protestants all my life (admittedly, mostly Charismatics and Evangelicals) and most of them have never mentioned it.  I just asked a couple of my buddies who are still in that faith and they've never heard of it.  Is it like a mainline thing or something?
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« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2013, 11:16:19 PM »

I learned something new from this thread.

I never heard of "Reformation Day" before.

Seriously, back in the old coal patch,  followed by the rust belt urban ethnic ghetto where we lived while I was growing up, there weren't many admitted Protestants. Folks were either RCC, Orthodox or Greek Catholic. Over the years, honestly I never heard of it.

I suppose it makes sense though that Protestants would remember the event.

I've been around Protestants all my life (admittedly, mostly Charismatics and Evangelicals) and most of them have never mentioned it.  I just asked a couple of my buddies who are still in that faith and they've never heard of it.  Is it like a mainline thing or something?
Yeah I've actually never heard of Reformation Day either
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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2013, 01:59:01 AM »

I was a former Protestant and have heard of Reformation day. I heard it at a few different churches including calvinist reformed types to even a mainstream charismatic church. Probably depends if the preacher cares to remind people about it during his sermon.
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« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2013, 08:50:27 AM »

I'm a former Lutheran.  We used to release ballons on Reformation day (the reason was never explained that I can remember) with cards that were postage paid, to see how far they went.  That seems to have died out before the big ELCA merger.
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« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2013, 03:33:50 PM »

Usually chill and eat left over Halloween candy.  This year I encouraged Catholics online to post parts of the Council of Trent on Lutheran church doors.
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« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2013, 03:44:41 PM »

This year I encouraged Catholics online to post parts of the Council of Trent on Lutheran church doors.

Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2013, 03:48:38 PM »

I learned something new from this thread.

I never heard of "Reformation Day" before.

Seriously, back in the old coal patch,  followed by the rust belt urban ethnic ghetto where we lived while I was growing up, there weren't many admitted Protestants. Folks were either RCC, Orthodox or Greek Catholic. Over the years, honestly I never heard of it.

I suppose it makes sense though that Protestants would remember the event.

The really sad thing is that it eliminated the celebration of All Souls Day on Oct. 31, a day set apart in the RCC to pray for the departed, like our Soul Saturdays. 
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« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2013, 04:13:42 PM »

All Souls' is on 2 Nov, it has never (AFAIK) been on 31 Oct. 
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« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2013, 04:25:25 PM »

All Souls' is on 2 Nov, it has never (AFAIK) been on 31 Oct. 

Thank you!   Not sure how I made it the day before All Saints rather than after. 
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« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2013, 04:26:31 PM »

All Souls' is on 2 Nov, it has never (AFAIK) been on 31 Oct. 

Right. 31 Oct is Hallowe'en (All Hallows Even = the eve of All Saints/Nov 1). Although many local traditions don't mark much difference between All Saints and All Souls, so it's easy to confuse. Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2013, 04:27:30 PM »

All Souls' is on 2 Nov, it has never (AFAIK) been on 31 Oct. 

Thank you!   Not sure how I made it the day before All Saints rather than after. 

A lot of people are doing that lately.  I blame it on the Mexicans.  Wink
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