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Author Topic: The Charismatics Among Us!!!  (Read 29494 times) Average Rating: 0
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OrthodoxRobert
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« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2005, 10:41:19 AM »

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"Tradition" can, and IS used as a club against freedom in the Orthodox and RC Culture.

Are you one who thinks women should be admitted to the priesthood?

Robert
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« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2005, 10:47:35 AM »

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"....or heard Orthodox prayers" - Talk is cheap. Show me some ACTION that places women on the same level as men. After all "there is neither male nor female" -- well, Christ didn't mean that - says the "male dominated Church"

Yes, those who claim to know the mind of God and believe He wants His Church to conform to what ever the culture expects would make that claim.

Does submission imply inferiority? Was Jesus inferior to the Father and somehow less than the Father because he submitted to Him? Jesus is equal with the Father, just as woman are equal to men, but we all have our God ordained roles.

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« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2005, 10:56:52 AM »

Ok,

   Here is the reason why Jesus let Thomas touch his wound and not Mary. Mary already believed. Notice when Jesus was resurrected, none of the disciples were there. They all went back to their normal lives before a disciple because Jesus was their only source of success. Mary of Magdala and Virgin Mary believed in Jesus before they saw him. Therefore, they did not have to touch his wound to see that he was real because they already believed. Thomas did not believe. He had to see to believe. That is the only reason why Thomas had to touch his side, because he had to be shown so he could believe. Mary believed and then saw. Thomas had to see to believe. He did not have faith, so he had to be shown. That is the reason why Thomas touched Jesus' wounds and not Mary. It had nothing to do with sex. SO if the women were there when he was ressurected, and they had more faith in Jesus than the disciples, then why not women priests. They are just as faithful as men. There is neither male or female in the spirit.
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« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2005, 11:05:03 AM »

Why not women priests?  Did Christ ordain women as Bishops and Presbyters through His Apostles?

And don't give me any crap about them "being bound by the traditions of their time."  If we believe that the Spirit moved through them to guide the Church into all Truth, if He wanted female Bishops and Presbyters, He would have told the Apostles to ordain them.

Remember that in a very real sense, Matushki share in the priesthood of their husband.  They've got a job that's as important as the Priest's: they have to be mothers to their respective parishes.  You think that's a light responsibility?  Where would our Churches be without all the female choir directors and cantors that we have?  What of the nuns?  You honestly think women have a reduced role in the Church?

Roll Eyes

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« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2005, 11:09:46 AM »

Are you one who thinks women should be admitted to the priesthood?

Yes.
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« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2005, 11:12:06 AM »

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"..male dominated Church" - those words speak volumes, don't they?

"....or heard Orthodox prayers" - Talk is cheap. Show me some ACTION that places women on the same level as men. After all "there is neither male nor female" -- well, Christ didn't mean that - says the "male dominated Church"

The leaders of the Orthodox Church and The RCC are using religion as a "boys club".

"Tradition" can, and IS used as a club against freedom in the Orthodox and RC Culture.

Hmmm, well I'm pissed that Christ, the apostles and even all the OT elders/prophets were all men... Roll Eyes
(sarcasm off)
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OrthodoxRobert
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« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2005, 11:15:30 AM »

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Remember that in a very real sense, Matushki share in the priesthood of their husband.  They've got a job that's as important as the Priest's: they have to be mothers to their respective parishes.  You think that's a light responsibility?  Where would our Churches be without all the female choir directors and cantors that we have?  What of the nuns?  You honestly think women have a reduced role in the Church?

I remember visiting a monastery for women and meeting with the abbess and just being so over taken by her holiness and wisdom. She answered quesions that as a former Calvinist that had haunted me for a very long time. It was this abbess who brought the Orthodox Faith alive to me as I am sure she has done for many a tired soul.

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« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2005, 11:18:34 AM »

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Yes.

Well, hey, hang in there. Maybe some day you will have the good fortune to attend a service when the first female Orthodox Bishop ordains the first Orthodox Gay priest. Maybe Episcopal Bishop Spong can attend as well.

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« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2005, 11:26:05 AM »

Well, hey, hang in there. Maybe some day you will have the good fortune to attend a service when the first female Orthodox Bishop ordains the first Orthodox Gay priest. Maybe Episcopal Bishop Spong can attend as well.

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and Apostles Muhammed and Stalin can teach about meaning of life. We will pray to Buda and sing kumbaya whilst eating McDonalds as a Mystery and drinking Scotch....
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« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2005, 11:45:01 AM »

TomS..

Do you support this? Or will you beat them up with Orthodox Tradition?

www.axios.net

AXIOS was founded in order to address the issue of human sexuality within Eastern Christianity:

· In order to affirm that gay men and women can live an active life of prayer and witness.

· For our mutual spiritual strength, stability, and well-being.

· For our desire to bridge the gulf between the church community and the gay community with love and through dialogue, prayer, service, and education.

· For the comfort, help, and support of our brothers and sisters and their families in realizing the joys and responsibilities of God's wondrous gift of sexuality.

· For the protection against stigmatization, repression and acts of intolerance.

· For opportunity to serve others in acts of charity and love as individuals and as a group.

· For the study of our rich and varied heritages and traditions.

· For a true sense of appreciation for each other and to achieve a spirit of fun and enjoyment in our development.
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« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2005, 12:22:15 PM »

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Well, hey, hang in there. Maybe some day you will have the good fortune to attend a service when the first female Orthodox Bishop ordains the first Orthodox Gay priest. Maybe Episcopal Bishop Spong can attend as well.

Who said that ordaining a woman priest or bishop would lead to the ordination of a gay? While yes there is neither male or female in the spirit the Bible says that a man shall not lay with another man, therefor making it a sin, witch is why gays should not be priests.

So why, just because a woman is ordained would she ordain a gay? If a man bishop believed that gays are just as righteous, would not he also ordain them? It has nothing to do with whether it is male or female that believes it is right. Undecided
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« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2005, 12:26:33 PM »

Who said that ordaining a woman priest or bishop would lead to the ordination of a gay?

It's a familiar tactic used by those who don't have a valid argument.
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« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2005, 12:33:16 PM »

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It's a familiar tactic used by those who don't have a valid argument.

I was making a point; and I did state my argument.
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« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2005, 12:40:53 PM »

I was making a point; and I did state my argument.

I was reinforcing your point; and I did state my conclusion
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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2005, 12:50:07 PM »

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It's a familiar tactic used by those who don't have a valid argument

Quote
I was reinforcing your point; and I did state my conclusion

You confuse me, what do you support? Huh
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« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2005, 12:53:41 PM »

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Who said that ordaining a woman priest or bishop would lead to the ordination of a gay?

It's a familiar tactic used by those who don't have a valid argument.

Is it? Why don't you go and have lunch with a few Anglican Bishops and I am sure they can explain it all for you. It all starts with setting aside the traditions of the Church to follow the traditions of men. Does ordination of women lead to ordination of Gays? Not always, but what would prevent it? You have tossed aside the Churches teaching for your own opinion shaped by popular culture. Why wouldn't a Church that used to oppress women not ordain gays? If it can change on the issue of women, why can't it change on the issue of gays?

You believe you know the mind of God on the issue of women and the priesthood TomS. You believe that the Church is in error on this issue and you are not. Why don't you become a Protestant, because when you set aside the authority of the Church and instead set up you own personal opinion over the Church. If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and walks like a duck....well, you get the idea.

See, Gays , like you, believe they also know the mind of God, and when you explain to them why you believe that Gays cannot be in the priesthood they will just spout to you the same rhetorical terrorism at you which you have so skilfully done upon this discussion. Oh, Orthodox Bishops and Priests just suppress freedom with tradition and they just want a heterosexual club etc etc etc. A lot of sound a fury signifying nothing.

 I think we see who really is using a common tactic used by those who don't have valid arguments.

Robert
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« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2005, 12:54:49 PM »

You confuse me, what do you support? Huh

He supports the anti-Apostolic, ProtestAnt notion of Priestesses.
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« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2005, 01:08:15 PM »

Robert,

I do see where you are coming from, but according to the Bible it is a sin to be gay, so there is an extremely greater argument to why a gay should not be a priest.
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« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2005, 01:10:24 PM »

Robert,

I do see where you are coming from, but according to the Bible it is a sin to be gay, so there is an extremely greater argument to why a gay should not be a priest.

According to the Bible a woman should be silent in church too, so how could she be a priestess?
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« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2005, 01:11:52 PM »

You confuse me, what do you support? Huh

TomS is basically Orthodox because his wife is, but doesn't seem to actually believe most of what the Church teaches.

Girl,
As to your belief/question of why it is not proper to have female priests, it all has to do with God, Man and Creation.  It starts with Creation, where God created Adam, the first Man (not "Humankind" or whatever) in his own image, then the first Woman, Eve, by taking a rib from Adam.  She was called Woman since she came from Man.  Now, come to the Incarnation, where Jesus Christ, the Son of God, took flesh from the Virgin Mary and became Man (in our present day human sense) for a ~ 30 yr space of time on Earth.  The toward the end of his life, his Passion, Crucifixation and Resurrection ocurred.  Now, besides what Holy Tradition witnesses to us, since Christ is our High Priest and the Holy Priesthood in the Church represents Him, it therefore must be Male or Man and cannot be Woman.  There are fundamental roles in our lives that are divinely instituted by God, some more obvious than others, just like Women can be Mothers and bear children and Men can't.  So, despite what you read in the Gospel (or is it in Acts?) about there being "...neither male nor female, Greek or Jew..." in scripture, the Priesthood must be reserved for Man alone because of the above reasons.  If you would carry the "...neither male nor female, Greek or Jew..." statement to other aspects besides the Priesthood, then why shouldn't Men have the right to bear children? ÂÂ
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« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2005, 01:12:53 PM »

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According to the Bible a woman should be silent in church too, so how could she be a priestess?

Scripture Please?
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« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2005, 01:18:06 PM »

Scripture Please?

1 Timothy 2:7-13.  Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
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« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2005, 01:21:20 PM »

I Corinthians 14:34-35

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
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« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2005, 01:27:33 PM »

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I do see where you are coming from, but according to the Bible it is a sin to be gay, so there is an extremely greater argument to why a gay should not be a priest.

Oh no no no, the Metropolitan Community Church, AXIOS.net and others will tell you that you are wrong.

Quote
but according to the Bible

"No, according to your churches homophobic tradition and teaching that has taken those passages of scripture and have made them say things that they do not say. "

That is what they will tell you. I have listened first hand. You had better believe they will go toe to toe with you over those passages that you believe (and rightly I might add) teach against homosexuality. See, they divorce the Churches teaching and tradition regarding this subject and place their own opinion over that of the apostles and 2000 years of Church history. To even give an inch is to admit that the Holy Spirit left the Church in darkness for all these years and failed to do His job which was to lead the Church into all truth. If you do not believe that the Church was not left in darkness with the issue of homosexuality, then why do you believe so with regards to women and the priesthood?

We are to contend for the faith that was once and for all delievered to the saints. Not improve it or bring it in line with popular culture. We are called to live it and defend it.

I don't know who said it, but I believe it rings true.

A Church that finds itself married to the spirit of this age will find itself divorced in the next.

Robert

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« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2005, 01:28:29 PM »

Stir it up!  Grin
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« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2005, 01:37:59 PM »

First off I would like to say that I am a very open person and I will admit if I am distraught over an issue; and I must say that this has greatly confused me, I do intend on bringing these issues to our priests, in hopes that they will have answerers that I, a simple 17 year-old, does not have.
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« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2005, 01:41:41 PM »

I came across this and have to admit that its sad when Protestants see what self professed Orthodox do not.

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Some have advanced what they term an "eschatological hermeneutic" (calling it a "scatological hermeneutic" would be more accurate), as opposed to a "protological hermeneutic."

Basically, this vain invention postulates that Genesis does not provide the ethical norm for the church; rather, heaven does, for there is our citizenship.

Thus, while Eve may have had some sort of subordinate role after the Fall our ethic flows not from the past but from the future.

 Since, in heaven, there is neither male nor female (don't ask about the 24 Elders around the throne; just amuse the innovators for a moment), we should be working out the implications of that "truth" now, in the church and all spheres, obliterating role distinctions based on gender.

It does not seem to have occurred to these clever folk that to be consistent, they should, among other things, ask the church to promote the end of marriage altogether in this world, not to mention sex!
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« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2005, 01:44:28 PM »

Ok, that is where I have to aggree with you. I do not think that gays should be ordained as priests, or as anything that holds a titled position in the church. The bible says that homosexuality is wrong, so if someone is sinning constantly, and it is their way of life, then how can they bring others to the word of God when they themselves aren't following it? I must admit, I have to aggree with you there.
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« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2005, 01:49:04 PM »

Posted from: http://www.sacred-texts.com/wmn/wb/wb03.htm

THE BOOK OF GENESIS.
CHAPTER I.
Genesis i: 26, 27, 28.

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: male and female image, created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

HERE is the sacred historian's first account of the advent of woman; a simultaneous creation of both sexes, in the image of God. It is evident from the language that there was consultation in the Godhead, and that the masculine and feminine elements were equally represented. Scott in his commentaries says, "this consultation of the Gods is the origin of the doctrine of the trinity." But instead of three male personages, as generally represented, a Heavenly Father, Mother, and Son would seem more rational.

The first step in the elevation of woman to her true position, as an equal factor in human progress, is the cultivation of the religious sentiment in regard to her dignity and equality, the recognition by the rising generation of an ideal Heavenly Mother, to whom their prayers should be addressed, as well as to a Father.

If language has any meaning, we have in these texts a plain declaration of the existence of the feminine element in the Godhead, equal in power and glory with the masculine. The Heavenly Mother and Father! "God created man in his own

{p. 15}

image, male and female." Thus Scripture, as well as science and philosophy, declares the eternity and equality of sex--the philosophical fact, without which there could have been no perpetuation of creation, no growth or development in the animal, vegetable, or mineral kingdoms, no awakening nor progressing in the world of thought. The masculine and feminine elements, exactly equal and balancing each other, are as essential to the maintenance of the equilibrium of the universe as positive and negative electricity, the centripetal and centrifugal forces, the laws of attraction which bind together all we know of this planet whereon we dwell and of the system in which we revolve.

In the great work of creation the crowning glory was realized, when man and woman were evolved on the sixth day, the masculine and feminine forces in the image of God, that must have existed eternally, in all forms of matter and mind. All the persons in the Godhead are represented in the Elohim the divine plurality taking counsel in regard to this last and highest form of life. Who were the members of this high council, and were they a duality or a trinity? Verse 27 declares the image of God male and female. How then is it possible to make woman an afterthought? We find in verses 5-16 the pronoun "he" used. Should it not in harmony with verse 26 be "they," a dual pronoun? We may attribute this to the same cause as the use of "his" in verse 11 instead of "it." The fruit tree yielding fruit after "his" kind instead of after "its" kind. The paucity of a language may give rise to many misunderstandings.

The above texts plainly show the simultaneous creation of man and woman, and their equal importance in the development of the race. All those theories based on the assumption that man was prior in the creation, have no foundation in Scripture.

As to woman's subjection, on which both the canon and the civil law delight to dwell, it is important to note that equal dominion is given to woman over every living thing, but not one word is said giving man dominion over woman.

{p. 14}

Here is the first title deed to this green earth giving alike to the sons and daughters of God. No lesson of woman's subjection can be fairly drawn from the first chapter of the Old Testament.

E. C. S.

The most important thing for a woman to note, in reading Genesis, is that that portion which is now divided into "the first three chapters" (there was no such division until about five centuries ago), contains two entirely separate, and very contradictory, stories of creation, written by two different, but equally anonymous, authors. No Christian theologian of to-day, with any pretensions to scholarship, claims that Genesis was written by Moses. As was long ago pointed out, the Bible itself declares that all the books the Jews originally possessed were burned in the destruction of Jerusalem, about 588 B. C., at the time the people were taken to Babylonia as slaves too the Assyrians, (see II Esdras, ch. xiv, V. 21, Apocrypha). Not until about 247 B. C. (some theologians say 226 and others; 169 B. C.) is there any record of a collection of literature in the re-built Jerusalem, and, then, the anonymous writer of II Maccabees briefly mentions that some Nehemiah "gathered together the acts of the kings and the prophets and those of David" when "founding a library" for use in Jerusalem. But the earliest mention anywhere in the Bible of a book that might have corresponded to Genesis is made by an apocryphal writer, who says that Ezra wrote "all that hath been done in the world since the beginning," after the Jews returned from Babylon, under his leadership, about 450 B. C. (see II Esdras, ch. xiv, v. 22, of the Apocrypha).

When it is remembered that the Jewish books were written on rolls of leather, without much attention to vowel points and with no division into verses or chapters, by uncritical copyists, who altered passages greatly, and did not always even pretend to understand what they were copying, then the reader of Genesis begins to put herself in position to understand how it

{p. 17}

can be contradictory. Great as were the liberties which the Jews took with Genesis, those of the English translators, however, greatly surpassed them.

The first chapter of Genesis, for instance, in Hebrew, tells us, in verses one and two, "As to origin, created the gods (Elohim) these skies (or air or clouds) and this earth. . . And a wind moved upon the face of the waters." Here we have the opening of a polytheistic fable of creation, but, so strongly convinced were the English translators that the ancient Hebrews must have been originally monotheistic that they rendered the above, as follows: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. . . . And the spirit of God (!) moved upon the face of the waters."

It is now generally conceded that some one (nobody pretends to know who) at some time (nobody pretends to know exactly when), copied two creation myths on the same leather roll, one immediately following the other. About one hundred years ago, it was discovered by Dr. Astruc, of France, that from Genesis ch. i, v. 1 to Genesis ch. ii, v. 4, is given one complete account of creation, by an author who always used the term "the gods" (Elohim), in speaking of the fashioning of the universe, mentioning it altogether thirty-four times, while, in Genesis ch. ii, v. 4, to the end of chapter iii, we have a totally different narrative, by an author of unmistakably different style, who uses the term "Iahveh of the gods" twenty times, but "Elohim" only three times. The first author, evidently, attributes creation to a council of gods, acting in concert, and seems never to have heard of Iahveh. The second attributes creation to Iahveh, a tribal god of ancient Israel, but represents Iahveh as one of two or more gods, conferring with them (in Genesis ch. xiii, V. 22) as to the danger of man's acquiring immortality.

Modern theologians have, for convenience sake, entitled these two fables, respectively, the Elohistic and the Iahoistic stories. They differ, not only in the point I have mentioned above, but in the order of the "creative acts;" in regard to the mutual attitude of man and woman, and in regard to human freedom from

{p. 18}

prohibitions imposed by deity. In order to exhibit their striking contradictions, I will place them in parallel columns:


ELOHISTIC.
 IAHOISTIC.
 
Order of Creation:
First--Water.
Second--Land.
Third--Vegetation.
Fourth--Animals.
Fifth--Mankind; male and female.
 Order of Creation:
First--Land.
Second--Water.
Third--Male Man, only.
Fourth--Vegetation
Fifth--Animals.
Sixth--Woman.
 
In this story male and female man are created simultaneously, both alike, in the image of the gods, after animals have been called into existence.
 In this story male man is sculptured out of clay, before any animals are created, and before female man has been constructed.
 
Here, joint dominion over the earth is given to woman and man, without limit or prohibition.
 Here, woman is punished with subjection to man for breaking a prohibitory law.
 
Everything, without exception, is pronounced "very good."
 There is a tree of evil, whose fruit, is said by Iahveh to cause sudden death, but which does not do so, as Adam lived 930 years after eating it.
 
Man and woman are told that "every plant bearing seed upon the face of the earth and every tree. . . "To you it shall be for meat." They are thus given perfect freedom.
 Man is told there is one tree of which he must not eat, "for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die."
 
Man and woman are given special dominion over all the animals-" every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
 An animal, a "creeping thing," is given dominion over man and woman, and proves himself more truthful than Iahveh Elohim. (Compare Genesis chapter ii, verse 17, with chapter iii, verses 4 and 22.)

Now as it is manifest that both of these stories cannot be true; intelligent women, who feel bound to give the preference to either, may decide according to their own judgment of which is more worthy of an intelligent woman's acceptance. Paul's rule is a good one in this dilemma, "Prove all things: hold fast to that which is good." My own opinion is that the second story was manipulated by some Jew, in an endeavor to give "heavenly authority" for requiring a woman to obey the man she married. In a work which I am now completing, I give some facts concerning ancient Israelitish history, which will be of peculiar interest to those who wish to understand the origin of woman's subjection.

E. B. D.

{p. 19}

Many orientalists and students of theology have maintained that the consultation of the Gods here described is proof that the Hebrews were in early days polytheists--Scott's supposition that this is the origin of the Trinity has no foundation in fact, as the beginning of that conception is to be found in the earliest of all known religious nature worship. The acknowledgment of the dual principal, masculine and feminine, is much more probably the explanation of the expressions here used.

In the detailed description of creation we find a gradually ascending series. Creeping things, "great sea monsters," (chap. I, V. 21, literal translation). "Every bird of wing," cattle and living things of the earth, the fish of the sea and the "birds of the heavens," then man, and last and crowning glory of the whole, woman.

It cannot be maintained that woman was inferior to man even if, as asserted in chapter ii, she was created after him without at once admitting that man is inferior to the creeping things, because created after them.

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« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2005, 01:51:34 PM »

The bible says that homosexuality is wrong, ....

Following that logic, then you would also have to agree that women cannot speak in church (as posted above) --

I Corinthians 14:34-35

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
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« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2005, 01:51:55 PM »

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The bible says that homosexuality is wrong

But that bible also says that women cannot be priests. So, why is the bible correct in saying homosexuality is wrong, but it is mistaken when it says women can't hold office in the Church?

Do you honestly believe no one understood the issue of women in the Church until 100 years ago? Did the Holy Spirit leave His Church in darkness until this time?

Was Luther correct when he said that there are parts of scripture that are more inspired than others? Wouldn't one have to know the mind of God to know to what degree of inspiration a passage of scripture had?

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« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2005, 01:53:19 PM »

And that cut-and-paste job was trying to prove........?

-Philip.
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« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2005, 01:55:33 PM »

Was Luther correct when he said that there are parts of scripture that are more inspired than others?

Yes.

And that cut-and-paste job was trying to prove........?

I don't know. Read it and tell me.
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« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2005, 01:59:32 PM »

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When it is remembered that the Jewish books were written on rolls of leather, without much attention to vowel points and with no division into verses or chapters, by uncritical copyists, who altered passages greatly, and did not always even pretend to understand what they were copying, then the reader of Genesis begins to put herself in position to understand how it

Oh, so the author of this piece saw the original rolls of leather to know the mistakes that "uncritical copyists" made.

He states they "altered passages greatly"

Really? The author has seen the original rolls of leather to know that passages had been altered greatly? Is it that they have been altered greatly because they do not say what he thinks they should say? The only way he can say they were altered greatly is if he has seen the original...which I doubt greatly he has since they are not around any longer.

Sounds like great stuff for the X-Files series and conspiracy hunters.

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« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2005, 02:03:50 PM »

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Was Luther correct when he said that there are parts of scripture that are more inspired than others?

Yes.

Seeing that you know the mind of God on any given subject then that places you in the position to say so.

Since you have a direct pipeline to God would you ask a few questions for me? I mean that's if
He doesn't mind.

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« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2005, 02:11:30 PM »

Tom S,

You seem very wishywashy on your beliefs, I wish you would come right out and say what you mean, instead of contradicting yourself. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2005, 02:12:06 PM »

It sounds like someone needs to actually read the Orthodox Fathers and what they say about Genesis. I highly reccomend Father Seraphim Rose's Genesis, Creation and Early Man for anyone who cares what the Orthodox Church and the Church Fathers teach about Genesis, History and the Bible.
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« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2005, 02:14:10 PM »

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I wish you would come right out and say what you mean,


Welcome to the wonderful world of theological liberalism.

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« Reply #83 on: June 21, 2005, 02:16:46 PM »

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Welcome to the wonderful world of theological liberalism
.

 :)Why thank you so much. Undecided I think.
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« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2005, 02:24:04 PM »

Well, I guess TomS believes that the Most Holy Trinity consists of God the Father, God the Mother, and God the Son.  Wonderful.

Let's play Name That Heresy!!!!!

Roll Eyes

-Philip.
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« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2005, 02:27:07 PM »

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Well, I guess TomS believes that the Most Holy Trinity consists of God the Father, God the Mother, and God the Son.  Wonderful.

Let's play Name That Heresy!!!!!

Very funny....really.  Cheesy
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« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2005, 02:28:11 PM »

Yay! Sophiaism!
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« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2005, 02:30:13 PM »

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Welcome to the wonderful world of theological liberalism

Yep, and their motto is "bring it all down man." It's the slogan that has united far leftists since the 60's. Now they are bringing their corrupting force into the church. Forget about building up, it's all about tearing down these days. Just look at what they did to the United Methodist or ECUSA. That's what happens when the far left 'does' religion....  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2005, 02:35:41 PM »

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Yay! Sophiaism

Sorry if I seem ignorant, but what is sophiaism?  Huh
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« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2005, 02:49:21 PM »

Sorry if I seem ignorant, but what is sophiaism?ÂÂ  Huh

Here you go Girl:

http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id17.html
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