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Author Topic: The Charismatics Among Us!!!  (Read 29225 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ebor
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« Reply #360 on: June 24, 2005, 03:40:53 PM »

No they are not a new thing!

The Church for 2,000 yrs has always had Christ as the Head/Man was given the image of God .......Let US make man in OUR image~!

Therefore when Adam was created .........Adam being the first man.
And Jesus Christ ..........as the Second Adam........................God took flesh and became MAN not WO-MAN.....

Not trying to be difficult here, just a liguistic note re: English "Man"  as it was once used to denote Human Beings in general, not just male. ÂÂ

"Man" was the word for "people" or "Human being" see "A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary"
http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/scanned_books/png/oe_clarkhall/b0197.png

"Wer" denoted someone male (thus "wergild' the price of a man's life and "werewolf" = "Man-wolf"
http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/scanned_books/png/oe_clarkhall/b0349.png

"wif" was the word for female
http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/scanned_books/png/oe_clarkhall/b0352.png

"woman" comes from ultimately from "wifman" i.e. "woman-Human being"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=woman

So in the creation in Genesis 1, when God creates "Man" "male and female create He them".
It in not just the male that is in the image of God. That leads to "what *is* the image of God, then?"  But that is for another thread. ÂÂ

Chiming back out.

Ebor

edited for spelling errors that would have meant chain-link armor.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 03:48:15 PM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #361 on: June 24, 2005, 03:41:37 PM »

Well you just proved Choirfiend wrong, you see Choirfiend, Girl came here to defend her heretical "church" and not learn and fellowship, so thank you Girl.

Anyway, your "church" is a heterodox sect that does not have nothing Orthodox in it. And it would be a lie if I said anything else. I am sorry Girl.
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« Reply #362 on: June 24, 2005, 03:45:43 PM »

Quote
does not have nothing Orthodox in it

That is a double negitive there. You just said that my church has everything Orthodox in it.
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« Reply #363 on: June 24, 2005, 03:48:56 PM »

That is a double negitive there. You just said that my church has everything Orthodox in it.

Well if you are going to correct me it is not "double negItive" but negAtive, anyway, I am sorry english in not my first language.. I do know how to say HERETIC though, and also say You...

Look:

You Heretic...


I am so good! Grin
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« Reply #364 on: June 24, 2005, 03:51:38 PM »

wooooot bad grammar !!
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« Reply #365 on: June 24, 2005, 03:52:07 PM »

mod, mod, mod, where are you?

Pedro, we know where you are, that's cool Smiley
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« Reply #366 on: June 24, 2005, 03:54:30 PM »

Quote
I am so good!


He not only worships God, but himself too!
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« Reply #367 on: June 24, 2005, 03:56:16 PM »



He not only worships God, but himself too!


LOL That still does not make you any less heretic!
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« Reply #368 on: June 24, 2005, 09:31:37 PM »

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=5461.msg84568#msg84568 date=1119639838]
You state that as fact, where is your proof of this being fact?
[/quote]

My only evidence is in the Lack of evidence for the Theological Arguments. The times where women are prohibited from talking in the Church, Church order and a desire to be free of disturbace are cited, not theological concerns. Furthermore, in the numerous treatises written by the Fathers on the Priesthood, no where do they either address the issue nor present theological elements of the holy Office that would seem to exclude women. [As an aside, does anyone know where the Earliest references to the Argument that 'only Men can be Priests because Christ was a Man' can be found?] This inspite of the fact that the notion of Priestesses could not have been entirely foreign to them, as Priestesses did serve the Pagan Temples. Then on the Other side of thigns, I see numerous Cultural reasons why women would not be Ordained. Perhaps there are good theological reasons out there, I just have not come across them.

Quote
Jesus was quite counter-cultural, I am sure if He intended for there to be priestesses He would have had His church do so.

Christ didn't actually ordain any priests, he Just chose the Twelve; furthermore, he also worked within the current Cultural System, he did not try to Change it, choosing Women Apostles would not been a Social and Culturally revolutionary act, not simply a 'spiritually revolutionary act.' It was beyond the scope of what He came to earth to do. Also along these lines, It could also be said that had Christ intended there to be Priests he Would have ordained them...i've heard this argument from various protestant sects.

Quote
Also earlier you spoke of Deaconesses and you called them the female diaconate, which they were not. Deaconesses were very different thing from Deacons.

Were they very different? Possibly, but the evidence I have come across in my readings of Original Sources seems to suggest otherwise...Here are a few I've come accross (emphasis added):

Canon 15 of Chalcedon:

Quote
Let no woman be ordained a deaconess before the age of forty, and even then after a strict test. But if she, after receiving the gift of chirothesy [laying on of hands] and remaining for some time in the ministry, proceeds to give herself in marriage, thus insulting the grace of God, let any such actress be anathematized together with the man who has joined himself with her in marriage.

(Deakonesses are Ordained by the Laying on of Hands, that is to say in the Same manner ad Deakons)

HOW BISHOPS AND OTHER ECCLESIASTICS SHALL BE ORDAINED, AND CONCERNING THE EXPENSES OF CHURCHES.

SIXTH NEW CONSTITUTION (Of the Novels of Justinain).

The Emperor Justinian to Epiphanius, Archbishop and Patriarch of Constantinople.

CHAPTER VI.

CANDIDATES FOR DEACONESSES WHO ARE UNDER FIFTY YEARS OF AGE SHALL NOT BE ORDAINED.

From Paragraph 1.

Quote
We do not permit women who have contracted a second marriage, or who (as We have already stated), have led a vicious life, to be ordained, but they must be free from all suspicion in order to be admitted into the holy service of the Church, to be present in baptism, and assist in the celebration of the mysterious and sacred rites which form part of their duties.

This clearly states that liturgical roles were parts of their Duties, refering Both to baptism (which they had a special role in because of the prevelance of Nude Baptisms) as well as 'the mysterious and sacred rites' (on account of the termonology probably primarially refering to the Eucharistic celebration, though certainly not excluding additional liturgical duties). This is a job description comprable to that of a male deakon.

And From Paragraph 4.

Quote
and why should We not wish that modesty, which is the greatest ornament of the sex, should be preserved, and be diligently practiced by deaconesses, in accordance with what is becoming to Nature and due to the priesthood?

(Above quote seems to imply that the office of the Deakoness was considered to be a Priestly office, just as the Office of the Deakon is.)

Mind you, I admit to not being as well read as I would like to be, but from what I have read, espeically the above references, the role of the Deakoness seems to be comprable to that of the Male Deakon. Though I would certainly be willing to entertain evidence to the Contrary.
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« Reply #369 on: June 25, 2005, 12:40:15 AM »

My only evidence is in the Lack of evidence for the Theological Arguments.

Could it be because you choose not to see any?

Quote
The times where women are prohibited from talking in the Church, Church order and a desire to be free of disturbace are cited, not theological concerns. Furthermore, in the numerous treatises written by the Fathers on the Priesthood, no where do they either address the issue nor present theological elements of the holy Office that would seem to exclude women. [As an aside, does anyone know where the Earliest references to the Argument that 'only Men can be Priests because Christ was a Man' can be found?] This in-spite of the fact that the notion of Priestesses could not have been entirely foreign to them, as Priestesses did serve the Pagan Temples. Then on the Other side of things, I see numerous Cultural reasons why women would not be Ordained. Perhaps there are good theological reasons out there, I just have not come across them.

Did you ever consider that there is so many ways to use Patrology to prove the reasons not to have women priests, and no way to use it to prove othervise. The canon that you are quoting is nothing to do with female priesthood as the texts below will show.

Brother, I really suggest that you research the theme a bit better before making weird (really weird) statements.

You can not be special if you want to be Orthodox. Special people are schismatics. The Church is CATHOLIC because it is according to the whole. We can not find one or two statements and then "discover the hot water". That is not a way to use Patrology. Indeed all the heretics do it that way. That is why they are what they are.



There are very good theological reasons that ARE OUT THERE, so for your benefit also, here are some:


SCRIPTURE:
1 Tim 2,
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Cor 14,
34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.



PATROLOGY:
It is not permitted for a woman to speak in the church [1 Cor 14:34—35], but neither [is it permitted her] . . . to offer, nor to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to say sacerdotal office" (Tertulian, The Veiling of Virgins 9 [AD 206]).

For he, God the Lord, Jesus Christ our Teacher, sent us, the twelve [apostles], out to teach the [chosen] people and the pagans. But there were female disciples among us: Mary of Magdala, Mary the daughter of Jacob, and the other Mary; he did not, however, send them out with us to teach the people. For, if it had been necessary that women should teach, then our Teacher would have directed them to instruct along with us" (Didascalia 3:6:1—2 [AD 225]).

Deaconesses have been led astray, since they are not sharers of ordination, are to be reckoned among the Laity. (Canon XIX. Imperial Council of Nicea, First Ecumenical, AD 325).

PRESBYTIDES, as they are called, or female presidents, are not to be appointed in the Church. (Canon XI, Local Council of Laodicea, AD 364).

Epiphanius of Salamis (from Against Heresies ch. 78, onwards[AD 377]).
 ... In an unlawful and blasphemous ceremony to ordain women, through whom they offer up the sacrifice in the name of Mary. This means that the entire proceeding is godless and sacrilegious, a perversion of the message of the Holy Spirit; in fact, the whole thing is diabolical and a teaching of the impure spirit"

"It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess, nor for any kind of work of administration, but for the sake of the dignity of the female sex, either at the time of baptism or of examining the sick or suffering, so that the naked body of a female may not be seen by men administering sacred rites, but by the deaconess".

"From this bishop [James the Just] and the just-named apostles, the succession of bishops and presbyters [priests] in the house of God have been established. Never was a woman called to these. . . . According to the evidence of Scripture, there were, to be sure, the four daughters of the evangelist Philip, who engaged in prophecy, but they were not priestesses".

"If women were to be charged by God with entering the priesthood or with assuming ecclesiastical office, then in the New Covenant it would have devolved upon no one more than Mary to fulfill a priestly function. She was invested with so great an honor as to be allowed to provide a dwelling in her womb for the heavenly God and King of all things, the Son of God. . . . But he did not find this [the conferring of priesthood on her] good".


St. John Chrysostom
"When one is required to preside over the Church and to be entrusted with the care of so many souls, the whole female sex must retire before the magnitude of the task, and the majority of men also, and we must bring forward those who to a large extent surpass all others and soar as much above them in excellence of spirit as Saul overtopped the whole Hebrew nation in bodily stature" (The Priesthood 2:2 [AD 387]).

The Apostolic Constitutions, AD 400
Appoint, [O Bishop], a deaconess, faithful and holy, for the ministering of women. For sometimes it is not possible to send a deacon into certain houses of women, because of unbelievers. Send a deaconess, because of the thoughts of the petty. A deaconess is of use to us also in many other situations. First of all, in the baptizing of women, a deacon will touch only their forehead with the holy oil, and afterwards the female deacon herself anoints them" (3:16).

"A deaconess does not bless, but neither does she perform anything else that is done by presbyters [priests] and deacons, but she guards the doors and greatly assists the presbyters, for the sake of decorum, when they are baptizing women" (8:28).


Blessed Augustine
"The Quintillians are heretics who give women predominance so that these, too, can be honored with the priesthood among them. They say, namely, that Christ revealed himself . . . to Quintilla and Priscilla [two Montanist prophetesses] in the form of a woman" (Heresies 1:17 [AD 428]).


Quote
...he Just chose the Twelve...

As far as I am aware He chose also the seventy, or you have been thought differently to me. (compare Lk ch. X).





Anyway, that will be it. I hope from the Patristic quotes it is clear that no deaconess was ever a priestly rank.
No women was ever Priest.
It is a heresy to ordain women for priests and so on.

I hope this will help.
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« Reply #370 on: June 25, 2005, 04:14:27 PM »

Could it be because you choose not to see any?

Did you ever consider that there is so many ways to use Patrology to prove the reasons not to have women priests, and no way to use it to prove othervise. The canon that you are quoting is nothing to do with female priesthood as the texts below will show.

What about the Reference from St. Justinian refering to the Female Deakonate as a Priestly Rank?

Quote
Brother, I really suggest that you research the theme a bit better before making weird (really weird) statements.

Considering many eminent Orthodox Theologians (Archbishop Christodoulos, Bishop Kallistos Ware, Dr. Elisabeth Behr-Sigel, and many others from the School of Athens) have presented opinions either comprable to mine, or more radical than mine, I would hardly classify them as 'really weird.'

Quote
You can not be special if you want to be Orthodox. Special people are schismatics. The Church is CATHOLIC because it is according to the whole. We can not find one or two statements and then "discover the hot water". That is not a way to use Patrology. Indeed all the heretics do it that way. That is why they are what they are.

I'm not the first Orthodox person to dismiss these theological arguments, and I am even not willing to go as far as a few and advocate the Ordination of Women to the Presbyterate...everything we do doesn't have to have a theological reason behind it...sometimes 'the well being of the Church' is more than enough. But as I have said before, I am a subject of the Oecumenical Throne, and I will advocate what His All-Holiness advocates as long as that Imperial See remains opposed to the Ordination of Women, so will it...if their posistion Changes, so will mine; I believe this to be an issue of Order in the Church, not Theology.

Quote
There are very good theological reasons that ARE OUT THERE, so for your benefit also, here are some:
[/quote

Most of these arguments deal only with issues of Order, not with Issues of Theology. Or are assertions of the Traditional Practice of the Church up to that point, with which there can be no argument.

The only passage which really makes a theological statement is:

Quote
Epiphanius of Salamis (from Against Heresies ch. 78, onwards[AD 377]).
 ... In an unlawful and blasphemous ceremony to ordain women, through whom they offer up the sacrifice in the name of Mary. This means that the entire proceeding is godless and sacrilegious, a perversion of the message of the Holy Spirit; in fact, the whole thing is diabolical and a teaching of the impure spirit"

But look at the context, the Women are offering up the Sacrifice of the Eucharist in the name of the Theotokos, that is the Heresy, the Raising of the Mother of God to same status as her Son, this is not inherent in the Ordination of Women but something particular to this Heretical Sect.

Another Quote that you wrote,

Quote
"When one is required to preside over the Church and to be entrusted with the care of so many souls, the whole female sex must retire before the magnitude of the task, and the majority of men also, and we must bring forward those who to a large extent surpass all others and soar as much above them in excellence of spirit as Saul overtopped the whole Hebrew nation in bodily stature" (Chrysostom on the Priesthood 2:2 [AD 387]).

Underscores my Cultural Argument. Chrysostom assumed that no women would be capable of such a great task, revealing the cultural mindset of the Day...though by no means a theological issue, it was simply thought that women were incapable of the task of being priests; and in the context of that Culture they probably were.

Furthermore, something we also see is a development of the Office of the Deakoness. Nicea I (325) states that Deakonesses 'have neither any claim to appointment to any order.' However, by Chalcedon (451) we see reference to Deakonesses being ordained by the laying on of hands (Canon 15). Then by the time of the Sixth Constitution of St. Justinain (c. 540), the Blessed Emperor seems to refer to the office of the deakoness as an office of the Priesthood, 'be diligently practiced by deaconesses, in accordance with what is becoming to Nature and due to the priesthood?' So while a deakoness would not have been considered a member of a Priestly office in 325 or earlier, by the mid sixth century (if not by the mid fifth century at Chalcedon) would she have? From what I have read the answers seems to be Yes. Now this is still not Ordination of Women to the Presbyterate, there is no Historical evidence for this ever occuring, but the reasonings seem to be ones of culture and order, which would mean that our Bishops today still have the Rights to decide one way or the other on this issue for the well-being of the entire Church. As I said before, I shall follow the Oecumenical Throne on this Issue, whatever way they go.
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« Reply #371 on: June 25, 2005, 04:23:01 PM »

My dear friend, I think that I said what I had to.

You are very welcome to join the monastery and one day in the future when you are maybe elected an episkope you can start ordaining women. LOL

I can just imagine how many other brother episkopes will look at you and say: G' how come we didn't think of that?!


Soon after that, when you are decided out of the Church, you can organise "A really really free, the most free and even freer church of me, myself and women priests".
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« Reply #372 on: June 25, 2005, 06:20:29 PM »

ok sin_vladimirov,

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ I really don't care what you think about our church. We don't need to be validated to someone that does not even know what he is talking about concerning our church. Go ahead and call us a heretic, doesn't mean we are one. If calling someone a heretic makes you feel more like a christain, then you got it all wrong.  Roll Eyes I know you have to defend your faith, but it doesn't mean you have to offend people that aren't as man-minded as you. And what you wrote concerning us coming here not to learn, I doubt that, because I have learned why other religions think Christains are fake. Because they say one thing and do another. And some of them do. You can quote scriptures all day long, bet you still not be as "Christain" as you think. Mar Ignatious said, "Preach the Gospel, and when necessary, use words." Well, you ayen't living it by saying words that show how you really think about others (i.e "heretic").

OrthodoxRobert,

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  You still haven't made an intelligent comment yet? Any time now... Roll Eyes

And to Jmell,

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Sorry, I have to warn you. Fighting with these people aren't going to get you anywhere. They're pretty stubborn, actually really stubborn.
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« Reply #373 on: June 25, 2005, 06:31:01 PM »

My dear friend, I think that I said what I had to.

You are very welcome to join the monastery and one day in the future when you are maybe elected an episkope you can start ordaining women. LOL

FYI, The Oecumenical Patriarchate does not choose their Bishops from Monasteries. But rather from Celibate 'Secular' Priests.

Quote
I can just imagine how many other brother episkopes will look at you and say: G' how come we didn't think of that?!


Soon after that, when you are decided out of the Church, you can organise "A really really free, the most free and even freer church of me, myself and women priests".

You must have missed my posistion on Ordaining Women, I'm opposed to it...just not for the same reasons you are.
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« Reply #374 on: June 25, 2005, 06:46:12 PM »

ok sin_vladimirov,

     I really don't care what you think about our church. We don't need to be validated to someone that does not even know what he is talking about concerning our church. Go ahead and call us a heretic, doesn't mean we are one. If calling someone a heretic makes you feel more like a christain, then you got it all wrong.  Roll Eyes I know you have to defend your faith, but it doesn't mean you have to offend people that aren't as man-minded as you. And what you wrote concerning us coming here not to learn, I doubt that, because I have learned why other religions think Christains are fake. Because they say one thing and do another. And some of them do. You can quote scriptures all day long, bet you still not be as "Christain" as you think. Mar Ignatious said, "Preach the Gospel, and when necessary, use words." Well, you ayen't living it by saying words that show how you really think about others (i.e "heretic").

OrthodoxRobert,

            You still haven't made an intelligent comment yet? Any time now... Roll Eyes

And to Jmell,

      Sorry, I have to warn you. Fighting with these people aren't going to get you anywhere. They're pretty stubborn, actually really stubborn.


The words of a true "Christian".


Me, calling you heterodox (what you are) is offensive, and you calling people stupid and stuborn is what? Love?

Deeming  people heterodox because they are not in communion with The Church and because they do not confess The True Faith is not against any law.

Apostles were using much worse words so did the Fathers of the Church.




Deeming people stupid is a very very un-Christian trait! (Mt. 5, 22.).


Then again, what am I to expect from a heretic.
(Mt. 5, 15-20.)


Therefore I suggest you apologise and ask forgiveness so that you can accept the Lord and His salvation. For, no amount of human philosophy and feminist arrogance will save anyone.





P.S.

We are Christians and not "Christain" or "Christains".

You might at-east learn what the people who follow our Lord are actually called. 
You can find the proper spelling of the word in Acts 11, 26.
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« Reply #375 on: June 25, 2005, 06:49:44 PM »

Helloooooooooooooooo? Moderator?HuhHuh??
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« Reply #376 on: June 25, 2005, 06:53:57 PM »

P.S.

We are Christians and not "Christain" or "Christains".

You might at-east learn what the people who follow our Lord are actually called.ÂÂ  
You can find the proper spelling of the word in Acts 11, 26.

Which would be 'χριστιανους' the accusative plural of 'χριστιανος'...latin letters don't come into it. Wink
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« Reply #377 on: June 25, 2005, 06:57:16 PM »

FYI, The Oecumenical Patriarchate does not choose their Bishops from Monasteries. But rather from Celibate 'Secular' Priests.

You must have missed my posistion on Ordaining Women, I'm opposed to it...just not for the same reasons you are.


I did not know this about EP and non-monastic episkopes. Thats interesting. Is that standard Greek Custom or just EP?


GiC, I know that you are opposed, I did read some of your posts that I did not before. Sorry I just assumed that you were just another one of these "new orthodox" who's only claim to Orthodoxy is that they wear "funny hats". I apologise, I just assumed wrong. I still do not agree about cultural issue regarding the ordination, but we can never agree on everything. I apologise for assumption.
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« Reply #378 on: June 25, 2005, 06:59:43 PM »

Which would be 'χριστιανους' the accusative plural of 'χριστιανος'...latin letters don't come into it. Wink

I agree, still english word is Christian or Christians and not CHRISTAIN.
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« Reply #379 on: June 25, 2005, 07:11:41 PM »

I did not know this about EP and non-monastic episkopes. Thats interesting. Is that standard Greek Custom or just EP?

It's been fairly standard Greek Custom for at least the Last Century or so.

Quote
GiC, I know that you are opposed, I did read some of your posts that I did not before. Sorry I just assumed that you were just another one of these "new orthodox" who's only claim to Orthodoxy is that they wear "funny hats". I apologise, I just assumed wrong. I still do not agree about cultural issue regarding the ordination, but we can never agree on everything. I apologise for assumption.

No problem, as I often say here, if we always agreed this place would be awful boring Wink
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« Reply #380 on: June 25, 2005, 07:18:06 PM »

sin_vladimirov,
  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ ummm, I'm sorry, were in that post did I say stupid? NOWHERE!!! And it is not against any law to call anybody stubborn if you are going to use that excuse to call us a "heretic." I was just trying to say that we do not need to be validated as a "Real Orthodox Church" by you.
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  If we were not meant to be a real Syrian Orthodox Church, then Ignatius Peter III ,the West Syrian Patriarch of Antioch, would not have mandated Mar Julius I, Mar (St.) Gregorios of Parumala, Metropolitan Athanasius Paulos of Aluva, and Malankara Metropolitan Dionysius Joseph II to to start an Orthodox ("Thomas Christian") mission to North America. And they would not have concecrated our first Archbishop for the Archdiocese of North America, Joseph Rene Vilatte (who took the title Mar Timotheus I ). St. Gregorios of Parumala, the only canonized native saint of the Orthodox Church in India, was co-consecrator in Mar Timotheos' ordination into the episcopate. And Mar Timotheus would not have concerated Mar Joseph Narsai as a concerator who concecrated Mar Enoch (Archbishop Veron Ashe) as the Bishop for all of North America for Charismatic Renewal. And Mar Enoch would not have concecrated Father Gregory, or Mother Miriam of Denver (the women priest at our church) or Mother Miriam who was concecrated in California who now has her own church in LA. And Mar Enoch is concecrating our Priest Father Gregory as a Bishop next week. Now don't jump to any hasty conclusions and say our Archbishop is Charismatic, He is part of the Mar Thoma Church. Mar Enoch is the first American bishop (of the lineage of Mar Timotheos I) to have undertaken formal episcopal visits to India to visit the Indian churches. SO if you think we are not a "REal Orthodox Church" then go back and tell Mar Thimeous and Mar Joseph Narsai and Mar Enoch that they are wrong. They are the Archbishops and the leaders of the Mar Thoma Church. They all answer to someone above them, and if Mar Enoch Archbishop Veron Ashe was not supposed to ordain Sunny Schell and Paul Schell as Mother Miriam and Father Gregory, then he would have been told not to by someone above him. So if you want to say we are not a "Real Orthodox Church," then tell the ArchBishop. After all, he is in charge and that is his decision, not yours.
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« Reply #381 on: June 25, 2005, 07:25:33 PM »

sin_vladimirov,
         ummm, I'm sorry, were in that post did I say stupid? NOWHERE!!! And it is not against any law to call anybody stubborn if you are going to use that excuse to call us a "heretic." I was just trying to say that we do not need to be validated as a "Real Orthodox Church" by you.
       If we were not meant to be a real Syrian Orthodox Church, then Ignatius Peter III ,the West Syrian Patriarch of Antioch, would not have mandated Mar Julius I, Mar (St.) Gregorios of Parumala, Metropolitan Athanasius Paulos of Aluva, and Malankara Metropolitan Dionysius Joseph II to to start an Orthodox ("Thomas Christian") mission to North America. And they would not have concecrated our first Archbishop for the Archdiocese of North America, Joseph Rene Vilatte (who took the title Mar Timotheus I ). St. Gregorios of Parumala, the only canonized native saint of the Orthodox Church in India, was co-consecrator in Mar Timotheos' ordination into the episcopate. And Mar Timotheus would not have concerated Mar Joseph Narsai as a concerator who concecrated Mar Enoch (Archbishop Veron Ashe) as the Bishop for all of North America for Charismatic Renewal. And Mar Enoch would not have concecrated Father Gregory, or Mother Miriam of Denver (the women priest at our church) or Mother Miriam who was concecrated in California who now has her own church in LA. And Mar Enoch is concecrating our Priest Father Gregory as a Bishop next week. Now don't jump to any hasty conclusions and say our Archbishop is Charismatic, He is part of the Mar Thoma Malankara Church. Mar Enoch is the first American bishop (of the lineage of Mar Timotheos I) to have undertaken formal episcopal visits to India to visit the Indian churches. SO if you think we are not a "REal Orthodox Church" then go back and tell Mart Thimeous and Mar Joseph Narsai and Mar Enoch that they are wrong. They are the Archbishops and the leaders of the Mar Thoma Church. They all answer to someone above them, and if Mar Enoch Archbishop Veron Ashe was not supposed to ordain Sunny Schell and Paul Schell as Mother Miriam and Father Gregory, then he would have been told not to by someone above him. So if you want to say we are not a "Real Orthodox Church," then tell the ArchBishop. After all, he is in charge and that is his decision, not yours.


It would be so funny if it wasn't so sad.

An apple come to a bag of carrots and says:" I am a carrot."
And the carrots look at the apple and say:"No way, you are an apple"!
The apple's juices start spraying out as she screams:"I am a carrot, and I do not care what you think, I am a carrot!!!!".



Also, where I come from, telling someone that they have not said anything intelligent after they have said many a SMART and TRUE and ORTHODOX word, implies that you think of that person as stupid.

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« Reply #382 on: June 25, 2005, 07:29:18 PM »

Ok, so now you know. If you think we should not have women priests, then tell ArchBishop Mar Enoch for ALL North America that he is wrong. After all, I don't see Archbishop by your name. And I was saying that his comments were not intelligent, not that he wasn't. So, go ahead and think what you want. We don't need to be validated by you.
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« Reply #383 on: June 25, 2005, 07:30:23 PM »

Ok, so now you know. If you think we should not have women priests, then tell ArchBishop Mar Enoch for ALL Norht America that he is wrong. After all, I don't see Archbishop by your name. And I was saying that his comments were not intelligent, not that he wasn't. So, go ahead and think what you want. We don't need to be validated by you.


Apple!
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« Reply #384 on: June 25, 2005, 07:32:27 PM »

Real mature.ÂÂ  Roll Eyes

and to Beayf's question, who are our hierarchs and who ordained them, there it is. It was all in the website Girl linked you to. if you would have read, then you would have known.

So whatever, think what you want, mushrooms.
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« Reply #385 on: June 25, 2005, 07:36:06 PM »

Real mature.  Roll Eyes

and to Beayf's question, who are our hierarchs and who ordained them, there it is. It was all in the website Girl linked you to. if you would have read, then you would have known.

So whatever, think what you want, mushrooms.

I do not have to be mature to be Orthodox.

I have to confess the Orthodox faith to be Orthodox.


I am sorry, we are not mushrooms, we are carrots... Mushrooms are on the different shelf!

P.S. That is really scary.
Not just that you don't know you are an apple and that you want to be a carrot but also at the same time, you are confusing carrots and mushrooms.
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« Reply #386 on: June 25, 2005, 07:38:24 PM »

i didn't say you have to be mature to be Orthodox. You're putting words into my mouth. Grow up. You should be acting 30, not 13. You're a real good example of a good Christian.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #387 on: June 25, 2005, 07:43:33 PM »

i didn't say you have to be mature to be Orthodox. You're putting words into my mouth. Grow up. You should be acting 30, not 13. You're a real good example of a good Christian.  Roll Eyes

Who said I was a good example of a Christian (nice spelling too). I didn't.. never! Talk about putting words into mouths!


Read what it says under my nick. (SINNER)




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« Reply #388 on: June 25, 2005, 07:58:12 PM »

wow what a waste of space!
closin dis thread
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