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Author Topic: The Charismatics Among Us!!!  (Read 27549 times) Average Rating: 0
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sin_vladimirov
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« Reply #315 on: June 24, 2005, 02:04:25 PM »

Some Father may have saw it that way, but they were all against female ordination. But like I said, if there was a female Apostle there is no way you could say no. That is not a stupid argument.

Oh yes it is.

Because we have many women who are Equal to the Apostle, and no one ever said that they (women) should be ordained.

Also, if that St. Junia was a female Apostles, and a cousin of St. Paul how come St. Paul has all those "women to keep their mouth closed" articles?
Was that added by the naughty man that was going arround and changing 20.000 manuscripts.
Must've been a busy fellow and such a hater of women.


Again, what would you consider you three?
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« Reply #316 on: June 24, 2005, 02:06:02 PM »

Quote
Yeah, still doesn't change my mind that biblical passages were either doctored or destroyed in the early history of the church to fit agendas.

Can you prove this? Have you seen the original documents? Can you show where they have been altered? Or is this one of those we just have to take your word for it?

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« Reply #317 on: June 24, 2005, 02:08:57 PM »


The Church actually tries to guard and protect the faith that was intrusted to her and she gets accused of supressing free thinking.

Robert
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What is free thinking, that the church sometimes forwards the doctrine of men? Doctrine that is created to hold people down under their weight to keep control. Threaten people with hell if they disagree.? Did Christ just follow along with the Status Quo, or did he shake things up.
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« Reply #318 on: June 24, 2005, 02:09:51 PM »


Again, what would you consider you three?

I don't understand ?
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« Reply #319 on: June 24, 2005, 02:10:28 PM »

Can you prove this? Have you seen the original documents? Can you show where they have been altered? Or is this one of those we just have to take your word for it?

Robert
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Did you see my post on the P46 Codex? Just an example of text being changed.
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« Reply #320 on: June 24, 2005, 02:11:50 PM »


Was that added by the naughty man that was going arround and changing 20.000 manuscripts.


Your looking at this to simply, it like a tree that branches out. If P46 is the root and you change it from there, it will cause the 20000 changes like you state down the road
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« Reply #321 on: June 24, 2005, 02:12:06 PM »

I don't understand ?

I know you dont understand... this is not the only thing.

I was asking what would you consider you, Girl (who does not even know what Letter to Titus is) and Lystra?

I reckon you are heretics. What do you think?


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« Reply #322 on: June 24, 2005, 02:14:00 PM »

Your looking at this to simply, it like a tree that branches out. If P46 is the root and you change it from there, it will cause the 20000 changes like you state down the road

I do not think P46 is the root of anything, I just do not see how come would anyone benefit from changing anything? WE ALREADY (well some of our fathers) THINK THAT PERSON TO BE A FEMALE!!!

What change? Into a Giraffe?
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« Reply #323 on: June 24, 2005, 02:14:27 PM »

Quote
Hate to tell you, it's been this way for 2000 years. Keep swinging those quotes around so the weak-willed only think your way.

Oh, so if you hold the Orthodox position you are weak-willed, but if your are strong willed, then they will hold yours. Thanks for clearing that up for us. Agree with the Church, you weak, agree with you than they are strong.

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« Reply #324 on: June 24, 2005, 02:14:48 PM »

I know you dont understand... this is not the only thing.

I was asking what would you consider you, Girl (who does not even know what Letter to Titus is) and Lystra?

I reckon you are heretics. What do you think?





I guess since you have already judged me, I am whatever you think I am
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« Reply #325 on: June 24, 2005, 02:15:58 PM »


I guess since you have already judged me, I am whatever you think I am

Excellent, now given that you are a heretic, I wonder what else can we agree upon?
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« Reply #326 on: June 24, 2005, 02:16:36 PM »

Oh, so if you hold the Orthodox position you are weak-willed, but if your are strong willed, then they will hold yours. Thanks for clearing that up for us. Agree with the Church, you weak, agree with me, you are strong.

Robert
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The only weakness you would have in following the Church would be following like a lemming. You will never know your being led off a cliff until it's to late. You should always keep your eyes open, for even the Fathers and the wise can make errors
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« Reply #327 on: June 24, 2005, 02:18:07 PM »


The only weakness you would have in following the Church would be following like a lemming. You will never know your being led off a cliff until it's to late. You should always keep your eyes open, for even the Fathers and the wise can make errors

Coming from you that is such a cute statement!
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« Reply #328 on: June 24, 2005, 02:18:19 PM »

Actually, I wonder if he attends Church at all.

No need to wonder. I don't.
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« Reply #329 on: June 24, 2005, 02:18:24 PM »

Excellent, now given that you are a heretic, I wonder what else can we agree upon?

You keep making the judgments, so it's up to you..
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« Reply #330 on: June 24, 2005, 02:19:52 PM »

Quote
The only weakness you would have in following the Church would be following like a lemming. You will never know your being led off a cliff until it's to late. You should always keep your eyes open, for even the Fathers and the wise can make errors

Yes, than can make errors, but when you start suggesting that copies have been changed to support agendas when you have no way of proving it, than that is pretty weak minded. You can make any allegation provided you do not have to prove it.

"I believe it, I can't prove it, but that doesn't change the fact of it." Now who is being weak.

Robert
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« Reply #331 on: June 24, 2005, 02:20:18 PM »

jmell,

Let us settle this dispute very easily; the fact of the matter is, regardless of whether "Junia" is a female or male, you have no conclusive evidence in support of those translations which include Junias and Andronicus as those who are "amongst" the Apostles in any event. Period.

Peace.

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« Reply #332 on: June 24, 2005, 02:22:17 PM »

So, what else did that naughty person change?

Simon was Simona, Judas was Judith, and Mark was Maria.. any others?
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« Reply #333 on: June 24, 2005, 02:22:51 PM »

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No need to wonder. I don't.

Oh boy, didn't see that one coming.

Why don't you go to Church? Isn't there a UNITY church near your home?

Robert
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« Reply #334 on: June 24, 2005, 02:24:57 PM »



No, its more "Sola Ego" than anything else.

He doesn't like boys clubs, but that is all he wants to belong to and continue to belong to. I just wonder if his fingers hut from having to cross them the whole time during the liturgy when he confesses things that he doesn't actually believe. Sadly, TomS does not possess the courage of his convictions if he keeps attending that which he despises and keeps giving money to it.

I am curious why he doesn't leave for a little home Church that would teach what he believes. Actually, I wonder if he attends Church at all.

Robert
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Well there is only one way to find out.

Thomas,

For the clarity of everyone on this board, I wanted to ask you directly the questions mentioned above so we can have your true intentions from your own lips or fingers. This way no one is guessing and you can explain for everyone what you do and believe when it comes to the Orthodox Faith with no one second-guessing you.

1. Why are you still a member of the GOA if you do not believe in much of the core teachings of the Orthodox Faith?

2. When was the last time you attended Vespers, Orthos and/or Divine Liturgy?

3. If you still attend, why do you? If not, why not?

4. Have you told your priest your personal feelings on the Church being a man-made sham and if so, what is his response?

5. If I decided you were real and then read from your enemies that you were a sham and not real at all but a big fake product of some man's twisted imagination, why should I trust your enemies over you?
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« Reply #335 on: June 24, 2005, 02:26:33 PM »

Yes, than can make errors, but when you start suggesting that copies have been changed to support agendas when you have no way of proving it, than that is pretty weak minded. You can make any allegation provided you do not have to prove it.

"I believe it, I can't prove it, but that doesn't change the fact of it." Now who is being weak.

Robert
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Romans 16:7

Paul’s Letter to the Romans

Issue: Greek word Iounian has been translated as "Junias" (male) and as "Junia" (female)
 

Junia…Junias?

Romans 16:7

"Greet Andronicus and Junia (Junias) my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."
 

The making of a man

Both the UBS4 and NA27 Greek New Testaments show Iounian accented with a circumflex accent over the alpha, which indicates "Junias" as being a contracted form of Junianus (a man)

The accents weren’t added to the texts until the 9th century
 

The making of a man continued

From the 9th to the 14th Centuries, most Church manuscripts interpret Iounian to be Junias

Epiphanius (315-403) wrote an Index of Disciples, Junias became a Bishop (however, in the same document he calls Prisca a man)
 

HCS Qualified 

Researchers have been unable to locate a single example of the male name Junias in ancient literature or inscriptions, either Latin or Greek

however, the female Latin name Junia occurs over 250 times among inscriptions from ancient Rome alone
 

Early Fathers Comment

John Chrysostom (347-407) states:

"Greet Andronicus and Junia ... who are outstanding among the apostles: To be an apostle is something great! But to be outstanding among the apostles - just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.” In Epistolam ad Romanos, Homilia 31, 2
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« Reply #336 on: June 24, 2005, 02:28:29 PM »

AND???

Who said otherwise?

Now tell me, how many women did St. John Chrysostom ordain to priesthood?
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« Reply #337 on: June 24, 2005, 02:29:26 PM »

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=5461.msg84544#msg84544 date=1119637497]
Well there is only one way to find out.

Thomas,

For the clarity of everyone on this board, I wanted to ask you directly the questions mentioned above so we can have your true intentions from your own lips or fingers. This way no one is guessing and you can explain for everyone what you do and believe when it comes to the Orthodox Faith with no one second-guessing you.

1. Why are you still a member of the GOA if you do not believe in much of the core teachings of the Orthodox Faith?

2. When was the last time you attended Vespers, Orthos and/or Divine Liturgy?

3. If you still attend, why do you? If not, why not?

4. Have you told your priest your personal feelings on the Church being a man-made sham and if so, what is his response?

5. If I decided you were real and then read from your enemies that you were a sham and not real at all but a big fake product of some man's twisted imagination, why should I trust your enemies over you?

[/quote]


Is this an Inquisition? Should we burn him?
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« Reply #338 on: June 24, 2005, 02:30:34 PM »

AND???

Who said otherwise?

Now tell me, how many women did St. John Chrysostom ordain to priesthood?

None as stated before, but if they are worthy of being Apostles why not priest. He did not say "equal to the Apostles"
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« Reply #339 on: June 24, 2005, 02:32:21 PM »

None as stated before, but if they are worthy of being Apostles why not priest. He did not say "equal to the Apostles"

Because THE PRIESTHOOD is for the MEN. Because Christ was A MAN! Now, how many women did St. John ordain as priests?
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« Reply #340 on: June 24, 2005, 02:33:57 PM »

AT ROMANS 16: 7, Paul refers to a woman Apostle, Junia. And she is 'prominent among the Apostles'. (NRSV)

Or does he? And is she? In fact the gender is uncertain. I don't mean that she is deliciously androgynous, but that the actual greek word Junian could be the accusative case of the man's name Junias or of the woman's name Junia (RSV translates '...Andronicus and Junias...they are men of note among the Apostles') By the majority of the commentators, both patristic and modern, believe that Junia, feminine, is right.

Naturally, this has been brought into the ordination of women debates. It is a useful piece of ammunition for the 'feminists'. Of course, their case does no depend on this detail, any more than the opposing case deepens on proving, by hook or by crook, that Junia both an -s on the end of her name and a membrum virile. On each side, the theological arguments are considerably broader. Nevertheless 'Woman Apostle' is a piece of evidence.

 M.H.Brurer and O.B. Wallace, who hail from the Lone Star State, argue the Junia was probably a female, but not an Apostle. This is how it goes. Romans 16.7 calls Andronicus and Junia 'episemoi en tios apostolois - notable in/among the apostles.

Does this mean:
(a) notable members of the group of the apostles; or
(b) not apostles themselves but well known among (i.e.to) the apostles?

(a) is much the more fashionable translation at the moment. Of course , is has its problems. If Andronicus and Junia were 'prominent' members of the apostolic band it is odd that we hear nothing else about them; and odd that Paul, who is probably listing for the Roman Christians people who could put in a good word for him, didn't give them a more prominent billing on the list. So 'Apostles' would have to mean a different, lesser category then the Twelve.

But this is not what Burer and Wallace discuss. They examine what in extant Greek literature (60,000,000 words) the usage episemos en... means And their conclusion is that (b) is right: in other words, Andronicus and Junia were not apostles but were a couple whom the Apostles (i.e. the leaders of the Jerusalem community) knew and - Paul implies - approved of. If Paul had wanted to say 'notable members of the group of the Apostles' he would have used a different construction: episemos with the genitive case: 'episemoi ton apostolon' - well-know of the apostles.

So, oops-a-daisy, there wasn't a woman apostle after all!

And I bet you're wondering why you haven't read all this exciting stuff in the papers. If some new bit of evidence, however dodgy, has just emerged for women apostles, headlines like NEW EVIDENCE FOR WOMAN APOSTLE would have screamed at you from the media. Now that a woman apostles has just smiled the demurest of smiles and gracefully tiptoed out of history, we hear not a word.

Funny isn't it?

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« Reply #341 on: June 24, 2005, 02:35:01 PM »

None as stated before, but if they are worthy of being Apostles why not priest. He did not say "equal to the Apostles"

Because the priesthood is not about equality. Women are not unequal to men.
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« Reply #342 on: June 24, 2005, 02:36:49 PM »

But brother Robert, dont you know that there was this naughty man that went arround and changed 20.000 manyscripts and made all the women into men? LOL
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« Reply #343 on: June 24, 2005, 02:36:59 PM »

Hate to tell you, it's been this way for 2000 years. Keep swinging those quotes around so the weak-willed only think your way.

Do you really think disagreement and false doctrine are a new thing?

No they are not a new thing!

The Church for 2,000 yrs has always had Christ as the Head/Man was given the image of God .......Let US make man in OUR image~!

Therefore when Adam was created .........Adam being the first man.
And Jesus Christ ..........as the Second Adam........................God took flesh and became MAN not WO-MAN.....

There are 12 tribes of the Old Testament........all MEN
There are 12 Apostles chosen by Christ.........all MEN
QUOTE////
it is said that the skull of Adam lay where Christ,
 as the Head of all, was Crucified, and Adam was baptized through the Blood of Christ, which flowed from Him and down onto Adam¹s skull.
It is called the Place of the Skull because during the Flood the earth expelled the skull of Adam,
 which rolled around by itself in a circle, and this was viewed as a fearsome sign.
The Holy Prophet and King Solomon,
 out of respect toward the Forefather,
 covered it up with many stones.
Moreover, the eminent saints say, as is the tradition,
 that Adam was buried there by an angel. Therefore, where
Adam¹s corpse lay, there Christ stood as the everlasting King,
 the New Adam,
 healing by the wood of the Holy Cross the Old Adam who had fallen by the wood of the tree.

QUOTE/  Now there is another sacrament that, like marriage, almost precisely mirrors the relationship between Christ and the Church - that of priesthood. The priest (and especially the bishop) is the head of his flock as Christ is the Head of the Church, and the priest must lay down his life for his flock as Christ laid down His life for the Church. There is even a sense in which the priest may be said to be the husband of his flock, which may be the reason why there is a canon (unfortunately, very often violated today) forbidding bishops to move from one diocese to another.

 

     Just as Christ had to be born a male, so the icon of Christ, the bishop, and his representative, the priest, must be a male. For "since the beginning of time," as St. Epiphanius of Cyprus says, "a woman has never served God as a priest".[149] If the priest is a woman, the iconic relationship between Christ the Saviour and Great High Priest and the priesthood is destroyed.

 

     As Bishop Kallistos (Ware) writes: "The priest is an icon of Christ; and since the incarnate Christ became not only man but a male - since, furthermore, in the order of nature the roles of male and female are not interchangeable - it is necessary that a priest should be male. Those Western Christians who do not in fact regard the priest as an icon of Christ are of course free to ordain women as ministers; they are not, however, creating women priests but dispensing with priesthood altogether...

 

     "It is one of the chief glories of human nature that men and women, although equal, are not interchangeable. Together they exercise a common ministry which neither could exercise alone; for within that shared ministry each has a particular role.
 There exists between them a certain order or hierarchy, with man as the 'head' and woman as the partner or 'helper' (Gen. 2.18); yet this differentiation does not imply any fundamental inequality between them. Within the Trinity, God the Father is the source and 'head' of Christ (I Cor. 11.3)
  "Men and women are not interchangeable, like counters, or identical machines. The difference between them… extends far more deeply than the physical act of procreation. The sexuality of human beings is not an accident, but affects them in their very identity and in their deepest mystery.
Unlike the differentiation between Jew and Greek or between slave and free - which reflects man's fallen state and are due to social convention, not to nature - the differentiation between male and female is an aspect of humanity's natural state before the Fall.
The life of grace in the Church is not bound by social convention or the conditions produced by the Fall; but it does conform to the order of nature, in the sense of the unfallen nature as created by God. Thus the distinction between male and female is not abolished in the Church."[150]

     The perverseness of female "priesthood" is somewhat similar to the perverseness of homosexual "marriage". In both cases, the "innate preaching" of Christ's Incarnation that is implanted in our sexual nature, instead of being reinforced and deepened by the sacraments of the Church, is contradicted and in effect destroyed by a blasphemous parody of them.


     That is why such things are felt to be unnatural by men and condemned as abominations by God. And if scientific humanism seeks to redefine what is natural, let us recall that such humanism, according to Fr. Seraphim Rose, is subhumanism. It is "a rebellion against the true nature of man and the world, a flight from God the center of man's existence, clothed in the language of the opposite of all these."[151]

http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20TRUE%20CHURCH%20IN%20THE%20LAST%20TIMES.htm#_ftnref149

what exactly is it that you find wrong within the man being a priest?

God loves all people..........and Who am I to argue why man is priest and woman is not!


I know that God loves me as much as anyone else......But argue with God I will not .......nor with anyone else for that matter!

Glory be to God.....
Lord have mercy on me a sinner!
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« Reply #344 on: June 24, 2005, 02:54:02 PM »

Quote
AT ROMANS 16: 7, Paul refers to a woman Apostle, Junia. And she is 'prominent among the Apostles'. (NRSV)

Or does he? And is she? In fact the gender is uncertain. I don't mean that she is deliciously androgynous, but that the actual greek word Junian could be the accusative case of the man's name Junias or of the woman's name Junia (RSV translates '...Andronicus and Junias...they are men of note among the Apostles') By the majority of the commentators, both patristic and modern, believe that Junia, feminine, is right.

There were other people considered apostles, but not Apostles. Those considered apostles were usually missionaries in the early church (b/c in greek, apostles basically means missionary).
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« Reply #345 on: June 24, 2005, 02:56:02 PM »

I'd stick with the 2000 year old tradition argument...or better yet my Scandal argument (which I believe to be the only viable one), the 'Christ was a man, therefore priests must be men' argument is not only absurd but ridiculous enough to undermine the better arguments that can be made against the Ordination of Women. The Imperial Office was also regarded as an Ikon of Christ, at least as much as the Priestly Office, if not more so...yet we had no problems with Coronating Empresses.

The reasons we never ordained women were cultural, the reasons we do not today are cultural...there's nothing wrong with this, the posistions of the Episcopacy on this matter are designed to Protect the Church. The theological arguments are modern and weak, they do not hold up to the Standards of Sacramental Theology that the Church has traditionally maintained, either find better theological arguments, or do as I do and place Priestesses and Married Bishops in the Same Category: not inherently wrong, but harmful to the Church and by virtue of that fact wrong.
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« Reply #346 on: June 24, 2005, 02:57:21 PM »

sin_vladimirov,

Does putting down TomS, Lystra, jmell, and me really make you feel all that better about yourself?
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« Reply #347 on: June 24, 2005, 03:01:16 PM »

There are some rules about calling people names here....we'll have to re-read the rules, yes? They are good ones.
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« Reply #348 on: June 24, 2005, 03:03:58 PM »

The reasons we never ordained women were cultural

You state that as fact, where is your proof of this being fact? Jesus was quite counter-cultural, I am sure if He intended for there to be priestesses He would have had His church do so. Also earlier you spoke of Deaconesses and you called them the female diaconate, which they were not. Deaconesses were very different thing from Deacons.
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sin_vladimirov
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« Reply #349 on: June 24, 2005, 03:14:09 PM »

sin_vladimirov,

Does putting down TomS, Lystra, jmell, and me really make you feel all that better about yourself?

Does it contradicting every person on this forum (and in 2000 years of Church), that is Orthodox, make you and them feel better about yourselves?
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« Reply #350 on: June 24, 2005, 03:15:47 PM »

There are some rules about calling people names here....we'll have to re-read the rules, yes? They are good ones.

Excuse me. I did not call anyone names, I called them heretics, unless you think what they are saying is Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #351 on: June 24, 2005, 03:17:48 PM »

I am not trying to contradict anyone here, I am trying to find out the truth, you can't serious expect me to turn my back on my church just because you say even before I look into it?!?!?!?!?
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« Reply #352 on: June 24, 2005, 03:20:14 PM »

Nope, Girl, you're doing the right thing by looking into what we say. You should never just accept things at face value, but always go the extra step to learn about them.
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« Reply #353 on: June 24, 2005, 03:21:31 PM »

I am not trying to contradict anyone here, I am trying to find out the truth, you can't serious expect me to turn my back on my church just because you say even before I look into it?!?!?!?!?


Excuse me, this thread is into its 24th page, because you are not contradicting?! LOL You must be kidding!
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« Reply #354 on: June 24, 2005, 03:25:39 PM »

If someone was pointing fingers at your church and accusing them of being heretics would you argue that? You really should not judge me because I am defending this place that has been part of my life for a long time and that has got me through hard times.
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« Reply #355 on: June 24, 2005, 03:30:02 PM »

Girl,

Do you want to share your conversion story a little more? How did your uncle come to this conclusion? How did that affect your family? And, if I may ask, what is your parish life like?
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« Reply #356 on: June 24, 2005, 03:30:38 PM »

If someone was pointing fingers at your church and accusing them of being heretics would you argue that? You really should not judge me because I am defending this place that has been part of my life for a long time and that has got me through hard times.

I did not go into Roman Catholic Forum and told them that they are wrong and that some naughty man changed their Scriptures and made a Pope male when he was she.

I am in an Orthodox Forum defending Orthodoxy. You should ask yourself what you are doing here if not asking to be called what you are.
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« Reply #357 on: June 24, 2005, 03:35:04 PM »

Quote
Deaconesses were very different thing from Deacons.

One must wonder then, why Phoebe was called a deacon (masculine), not a deaconness. There were female deacons, but that doesn't mean there were priests, of course. The whole point of being a deacon is to serve the bishop. This original point of a deacon is kind of lost as it is now seen as a road to the priesthood.
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« Reply #358 on: June 24, 2005, 03:36:27 PM »

You should ask yourself what you are doing here if not asking to be called what you are.

I'd suggest she's here for learning and fellowship, same as anyone who comes no matter what their religion.
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« Reply #359 on: June 24, 2005, 03:37:49 PM »

I came upon this site because one day I was quite board and decided to google my church and its name came up on this site, I was very shocked at what was being said about my church and I became a member of the O.C. net so I could defend it, and that is what I am doing here.
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