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Author Topic: The Charismatics Among Us!!!  (Read 29462 times) Average Rating: 0
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SetFree
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« on: February 19, 2005, 03:55:22 PM »

I've noticed that among protestants (even of more conservative denominations like Southern Baptists) the Charismatic Movement has moved from the fringe into the mainstream.  Manifestations of "falling in the Spirit", "speaking in tongues (ecstatic not living languages)", and the like are popping up all over the place and many denomination base salvation on the manifestation of these "gifts" in their individual faithful.  This movement has even penetrated the Roman Catholic Churches, especially among those who are Marianist (not making generalizations here, I have several Marianist friends who go to the Charismatic conferences with several Marianist churches in the area).

Hank Hanegraaf has written a treatise against this movement called COUNTERFEIT REVIVAL, in which he points out some very interesting things about the leaders of this movement (i.e. Benny Hinn, Marilyn Hickey, Rodney Howard-Browne, Paul and Jan Crouch, etc.) as well as the manifestations themselves.  My question is, what does the Church say about this movement???  Has it penetrated Holy Orthodoxy??? What do you as individuals within the Church feel about Charisma???

In Christ,
Adrian Davila
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2005, 12:34:36 AM »

Adrian,

It's pretty much a non-issue in the Orthodox Churches in my neck of the woods. (I don't know if this is the case in Texas.)  We have to remember, however, that these can be perfectly genuine gifts of the Spirit as well as fraudulent nonsense.

In a liturgical setting, I don't think such things (speaking in tongues etc.) would ever be tolerated for long. Woe be to the priest who would tolerate such things and then have his bishop find out about it, as far as I know. Maybe some other posters know about strange goings-on of which I am not aware?

Are there any former Evangelical Orthodox on this board, or people that know some of them? i would like to know what they have to say about these kinds of phenomena.

Bob
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2005, 01:45:07 AM »

The Orthodox church is actually the most Charismatic church in the world (Just read "the mountian of silence, a quest for orthodox spirituality"). The Orthodox church looks at the gifts in a whole different light, though, than your typical protestant or Roman catholic charismatic movements.

In Orthodoxy, Theosis (which is not stressed or even really taught in the protestant and RC churches the way it is in the Orthodox church) is the main goal of the Christian life and everything else is subuordinate. For those who achieve theosis (like the saints and many monks ect...) genuine miricales tend to happen quite regularly; yet the people who experience them are so humble that it doesn't affect ego the way that it normally would many lay people.

I have seen genuine Charismatic gifts take place at my own parish (not in the Benny Hinn way, with speaking in tounges, slaying in the spirit, ect..way but in a genuine way).

Before becoming Orthodox, I was not part of the Evangelical Orthodox church, but I was part of the Charismatic Episcopal church which had a lot in common in it's ethos with the Evangelical Orthodox church.

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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2005, 12:47:40 AM »

There is a good book I read awhile back that details "charismatic" charisms or gifts in the early christian church. The authors I beleive are two roman catholic priest. Even though it's not Orthodox, I thought they did a fair job on the patristics and seemed very balance in thier approach to the subject. The book is called "Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit."- 'Evidence from the first Eight Centuries'


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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2005, 01:24:23 AM »

Here is a link to a group I was a member of for a time before I found the "real" orthodox Church. http://www.divineid.com/

We spoke tongues over the Eucharist and had many chaismatic teachings that were not orthodox yet we claimed orthodoxy. This outfit is part of the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church in India run by HIS EMINENCE METROPOLITAN MAR ENOCH ... Bishop Veron Ashe in America.

This group claims orthodoxy yet teaches pre existance of the soul and spirit. Origen’s teaching of apokatastasis is claimed by this group. They also ordain women and gays.

My point is there are many groups that claim orthodoxy yet have been tainted. Beware.

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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2005, 06:38:58 AM »

Fr. Seraphim Rose on the "Charismatic Revival"
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2005, 10:26:02 AM »


Orthodoxy - That link was just....creepy!  Thanks for the warning!

SetFree - To Prodromos you listen!  Fr. Seraphim's article you should read!  Mind what you have learned!  Save you it can!
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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2005, 10:25:44 PM »

      When I first became a member of this site, it said that offensive entries were not allowed. Well I am very offended. I have been attending Imago Dei for 8 years now and I love it. Orthodoxy, the only reason that your other priest said that we were not a real orthodox church is because he does not like the fact that we have convergence services and that we have a woman priest, which should have nothing to do with whether we are orthodox or not. And to whoever said that we ordain gays was just flat out lying to make themselves look smart, because we absolutely do not!

PS. Orthodoxy, are you to afraid to put your name, or what? I want to who is say stuff about my church! Angry

Felicia
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2005, 10:41:57 PM »

      we have a woman priest, which should have nothing to do with whether we are orthodox or not.

Women priests has nothing to do with whether you are Orthodox or not!!!  Are you serious?  Read this for more information. 

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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2005, 10:45:34 PM »

Quote
Orthodoxy, the only reason that your other priest said that we were not a real orthodox church is because he does not like the fact that we have convergence services and that we have a woman priest, which should have nothing to do with whether we are orthodox or not.

Somehow, I don't think those are the only reasons why he would have said y'all ain't Orthodox.

Who are y'all in communion with? Who are y'all's hierarchs? Who ordained them? Are they recognized by anybody but themselves? If you ain't in communion with the Orthodox churches, you ain't Orthodox.

The statement of faith on that website consisted only of the Nicene creed. That's a start, but there's a whole lot more to Orthodoxy than just that.
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2005, 06:30:52 AM »

Orthodoxy, the only reason that your other priest said that we were not a real orthodox church is because he does not like the fact that we have convergence services and that we have a woman priest, which should have nothing to do with whether we are orthodox or not.

Serious alarm bells are ringing in my head.  What is up with this site, there are Orthodox here who have women priests???  They cannot possibly be recognized by anyone but themselves.
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2005, 10:08:48 AM »

She said "orthodox" not "Orthodox".  I don't recognize the difference but some think they are orthodox without being members of an Orthodox church.
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2005, 11:16:19 AM »

Serious alarm bells are ringing in my head.ÂÂ  What is up with this site, there are Orthodox here who have women priests???ÂÂ  They cannot possibly be recognized by anyone but themselves.

There isn't exactly any verification of one belonging to accepted Canonical Orthodox churches to register on this site (how could there?).  I don't think she's fooling anyone here except herself.  I don't think you have anything to worry about.
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2005, 11:21:29 AM »

Women priests has nothing to do with whether you are Orthodox or not!!!ÂÂ  Are you serious?ÂÂ  Read this for more information.ÂÂ  



Thanks for posting this link.  Have seen anything else (hopefully concise as the above)?  I was looking for something that talked about the priest representing Christ, and thus why women are excluded.
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2005, 02:50:11 PM »

There is a great book written by a former Church of Christ member who is now an Orthodox Monk living on Mt. Athos called "In Peace Let Us Pray To The Lord" It is a series of letters he wrote to his Church of Christ family members dealing with the charismatic movement and that of Christ's Church. It is a great read, I don't have it anymore seeing I gave it to a great friend of mine but I plan on buying another copy.

Robert
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2005, 04:56:45 PM »

Quote
There is a great book written by a former Church of Christ member who is now an Orthodox Monk living on Mt. Athos called "In Peace Let Us Pray To The Lord" It is a series of letters he wrote to his Church of Christ family members dealing with the charismatic movement and that of Christ's Church. It is a great read, I don't have it anymore seeing I gave it to a great friend of mine but I plan on buying another copy.

Robert
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Welcome to the board Robert! Glad to see you here. I'm sure you must be tired debating those cheesy calvinist after awhile at that other board, you will find much more sane people here... Grin
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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2005, 05:27:54 PM »

Robert,

Welcome to the board. I look forward to reading your posts!!!

God grant you many years

Bagpiper
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« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2005, 06:04:19 PM »

Quote
Welcome to the board Robert! Glad to see you here. I'm sure you must be tired debating those cheesy calvinist after awhile at that other board, you will find much more sane people here..

Well, I wouldn't call them debates really.

I have found that when you are in a debate with people the chances of you changing their minds are slim to none. Its those who are reading and are not decided are the ones who will benefit most from an exchange.

I will miss Josh. It is funny that he paid thousands of dollars to attend a seminary and all he can do in the end is spout off slogans. What is even funnier is that he is a Baptist who attened a non-baptist seminary? Why? So he could graduate and still believe in believers only Baptism? Or was it to prove to himself that he was smarter than all his professors? Why waste the money to inflate one's ego? I have presonally found that Westminster Theological seminary has churned out more Phd's who desire to write a book to promote their view of what ever theological subject is hot in their circles than they do men who desire to be slaves of Christ.

It was a Roman Catholic apologist who coined the missing sola of the reformation...Sola Ego. In the end when all is said and done it what they personally believe and thats it. As I showed with Tex it all comes down to him, there is no external authority to himself. He will quote whatever theologian will agree with him, but as soon as that theologian disagrees with him, that theologian is out the door and has no weight with him.

Robert
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« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2005, 06:39:45 PM »

Quote
Sola Ego

As a Latinist, I must correct the RC apologetic's Latin, it's "solo me" (of if you're not masculine, "sola me"). You want the ablative, not the nominative.  Wink

Of course, the one in "quotes" does make more sense in English.
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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2005, 06:42:38 PM »

Of course, I'm also making the assumption that we want an ablative of means here. We can have it in the nominative, but I think things like sola scriptura are in the ablative rather than the nominative because of how it's used (ie., "by scripture alone," rather than "scripture alone").

Now I remember the other "sola" I was thinking of: sola fide. Clearly in the ablative... (I need to convince myself here).
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2005, 07:40:06 PM »

In defense of the RC Apologist he is quoting the "Sola Ego" using the language of the reformers who were masters of Latin and everything else they claim to be masters of that was lost until they rediscovered it.

Robert
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2005, 10:05:23 PM »

To all whom it may concern,

       Yes, our church does have women priests. Is there a problem with that? Why could there not be women priests? Virgin Mary and Mary of Magdala were the first ones there at the Ressurection. Are we still going to let sex, race, or past religions change our relationship with God? There is neither Male or Female in the spirit. As long as we have a authentic and genuine love for God and making disciples of his people, then why not? Women should not be seperated from men. We are all God's servants, and we should all have an equal opportunity to serve him and serve his people. And yes, we are a Orthodox Church. By you all gossiping about other churches, you give Christianity a bad name and only cause division. I only feel sorry for you.
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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2005, 10:34:27 PM »

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And yes, we are a Orthodox Church.

Then once again, since your website doesn't say, who are your hierarchs, who ordained them, and who are they in communion with?
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« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2005, 10:54:22 PM »

To all whom it may concern,

       Yes, our church does have women priests. Is there a problem with that? Why could there not be women priests? Virgin Mary and Mary of Magdala were the first ones there at the Ressurection. Are we still going to let sex, race, or past religions change our relationship with God? There is neither Male or Female in the spirit. As long as we have a authentic and genuine love for God and making disciples of his people, then why not? Women should not be seperated from men. We are all God's servants, and we should all have an equal opportunity to serve him and serve his people. And yes, we are a Orthodox Church. By you all gossiping about other churches, you give Christianity a bad name and only cause division. I only feel sorry for you.

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot â€Â

Regarding women priests, the short answer is yes, there is a problem with that.  It is true that Mary Magdalene was the first to behold the Resurrection of Christ.  It is also true that she was the first to preach it to the disciples.  However, preaching is one thing and the priesthood is an entirely different thing.  After crying out "Rabboni", Mary reached out to touch Christ.  But what did He tell her... "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father..." (John 20:17).  However, a week later, Thomas did touch Christ,  he touched the Lord's hand's and side, and yet, Christ still hadn't ascended to heaven yet!  Why?  Is it because our Lord is sexist?!  Perish the thought.  Likewise, in the Old Testament, all priests were men, i.e. the priesthood was reserved for men.  And not just any men either.  Perhaps you're thinking, "But that is the Old Testament, we don't go by that anymore".  Wrong again.  Christ Himself said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law of the Prophets.  I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17).  As you can see, this applies to the priesthood as well (which arose from the Law). 

Priesthood entails distributing the Body and Blood of Christ during the Sacrament of Communion.  Now, if Christ did not allow Mary Magdalene to touch Him after His Resurrection, how much more can women not touch His Blessed Body and Blood offered during Communion.  It is the very same Body and Blood that Christ forbade Mary to touch.  In the Church, everyone has a role.  The role of some men is to be priests, others are deacons, and others are content to remain as laymen.  Likewise, there are roles in the Church for women.  The priesthood is not one of them however.  Bear in mind, this is not because women are somehow inferior.  One need only read Genesis and the creation of Man and Woman to realize that this is not the case.  But again, there are roles, set out by Christ Himself, and passed down by the Apostles and the Church Fathers.

Pray for me.
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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2005, 07:57:30 PM »

SO you are saying that Jesus only said, "Do not cling to me." because she was a woman? That is very ignorant. Jesus would have said that to anyone because no one could have clinged to him because he was ascending. I still don't understand why you think there is a difference to God whether we are women or men. You obviously are still in the Men-mindset. Ican't believe all of you ignorant hypocrits. How can you sit here and talk about something you don't even know about. You make yourselves look like idiots.
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« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2005, 08:05:56 PM »

SO you are saying that Jesus only said, "Do not cling to me." because she was a woman? That is very ignorant. Jesus would have said that to anyone because no one could have clinged to him because he was ascending. I still don't understand why you think there is a difference to God whether we are women or men. You obviously are still in the Men-mindset. Ican't believe all of you ignorant hypocrits. How can you sit here and talk about something you don't even know about. You make yourselves look like idiots.

Thanks for sharing, Lystra. 

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« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2005, 08:15:28 PM »

Quote
SO you are saying that Jesus only said, "Do not cling to me." because she was a woman? That is very ignorant. Jesus would have said that to anyone because no one could have clinged to him because he was ascending. I still don't understand why you think there is a difference to God whether we are women or men. You obviously are still in the Men-mindset. Ican't believe all of you ignorant hypocrits. How can you sit here and talk about something you don't even know about. You make yourselves look like idiots.

OMG!!! You are so hysterical.... Roll Eyes Before we know it you'll be coming back here telling us the virtues of other strange 'practices' and how we are all idiots because we are not open minded as you. Have we been reading too many Dan Brown books lately?  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2005, 10:02:37 PM »

This post, the way it is developing, would be so funny if it wasn't so sad.

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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2005, 10:53:43 PM »

SO you are saying that Jesus only said, "Do not cling to me." because she was a woman? That is very ignorant. Jesus would have said that to anyone because no one could have clinged to him because he was ascending. I still don't understand why you think there is a difference to God whether we are women or men. You obviously are still in the Men-mindset. Ican't believe all of you ignorant hypocrits. How can you sit here and talk about something you don't even know about. You make yourselves look like idiots.

If you can propose another plausible explaination as to why Christ forbade Mary from touching Him and yet allowing Thomas to do so, I'm all ears.
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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2005, 11:19:31 PM »

Quote
If you can propose another plausible explanation as to why Christ forbade Mary from touching Him and yet allowing Thomas to do so, I'm all ears.

I have often wondered myself why if its okay for women to be priest's, then why didn't Jesus make any of his female disciples to be apostles?

I once was told by a Episcopalian that his church held a high view of women because they allow them to be priests. I said that the Orthodox Church does also, because when you walk into our Church who do you see but a woman painted on the wall behind the alter. Mary is the greatest saint, and it's her example that we all strive to be like.

Robert
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2005, 01:55:09 PM »

Since Beayf's question is getting ignored again, I'll ask it in a very hard to miss fashion:

Who are your hierarchs?ÂÂ  Who ordained them?ÂÂ  With whom are they in communion?

If you are Orthodox, you shouldn't have a problem with answering this question.

This is very interesting so far, however.ÂÂ  Carry on.ÂÂ  I'll bring the popcorn.

+IC XC NIKA+
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2005, 03:30:54 PM »

Go here for Info http://www.marthomaorthodoxchurch.com/history.html
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« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2005, 04:14:41 PM »

The first paragraph on the link that you posted is telling enough...

Quote
The Mar Thoma Orthodox Church is a small independent jurisdiction.

So, they are independant, which means they are in communion with no one else?

That does not sound very Orthodox to me...ÂÂ  Undecided
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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2005, 04:49:32 PM »

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So, they are independant, which means they are in communion with no one else?

     If you read the whole thing you would see that Bishop Ashe was the first American to be ordained from that lineage, so they were the first and at that time, only church of their kind in America, therefor making them INDEPENDENT from other Orthodox churches lineage (IN AMERICA!) This is also why we have such a hard time being accepted. The fact is that our Apostolic succession comes from St. Thomas and we are Orthodox.
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« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2005, 04:53:10 PM »

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The fact is that our Apostolic succession comes from St. Thomas and we are Orthodox.

Alright. We have the first two questions answered -- who your hierarch is and who ordained him. Now, the third piece of the puzzle: who is he in communion with?
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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2005, 05:10:55 PM »

Alright. We have the first two questions answered -- who your hierarch is and who ordained him. Now, the third piece of the puzzle: who is he in communion with?

Further, you need to find out if any other "Churches" say they are in communion with your jurisdiction as well. 
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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2005, 05:24:49 PM »

I said that the Orthodox Church does also, because when you walk into our Church who do you see but a woman painted on the wall behind the alter. Mary is the greatest saint, and it's her example that we all strive to be like.

Standard throw away argument used to deflect the question.
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Arystarcus
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« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2005, 05:33:46 PM »

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If you read the whole thing you would see that Bishop Ashe was the first American to be ordained from that lineage, so they were the first and at that time, only church of their kind in America, therefor making them INDEPENDENT from other Orthodox churches lineage (IN AMERICA!) This is also why we have such a hard time being accepted.

But if it were a legitimate Orthodox Church that ordained someone who was an American, then I don't see how it would be a problem.

The directory of churches on the website that you provided lists only 4 churches - 2 in California, 1 in Colorado and 1 in Texas.

Since your church is not in communion with anyone else, when you are out of town, where do you go to church and commune?

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Further, you need to find out if any other "Churches" say they are in communion with your jurisdiction as well.

Exactly!
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Girl
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« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2005, 05:49:24 PM »

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Since your church is not in communion with anyone else, when you are out of town, where do you go to church and commune?

We have three priests so we do not have to worry about that. And if another churches priest is out of town either a priest from one of the other four Churches will come and perform the sermon or the deacons will.

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Further, you need to find out if any other "Churches" say they are in communion with your jurisdiction as well.

As far as I know...none. but I will ask one of our priests.
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Arystarcus
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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2005, 05:58:52 PM »

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We have three priests so we do not have to worry about that. And if another churches priest is out of town either a priest from one of the other four Churches will come and perform the sermon or the deacons will.

When I asked my original question, I was wondering what you, or the fellow members of your church - as individuals, do when you are out of town on vacation or whatever, and you cannot attend any of your churches.

Has your church advised you where to go, or where you are welcome to worship or commune?
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Girl
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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2005, 06:04:33 PM »

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When I asked my original question, I was wondering what you, or the fellow members of your church - as individuals, do when you are out of town on vacation or whatever, and you cannot attend any of your churches.

Has your church advised you where to go, or where you are welcome to worship or commune?

What we usually do is find a orthodox church in the area and contact them, we will ask if we can come and receive the Ucharist there and if they say no we will continue to look until we find one. 
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"Go out and make disciples of all nations" (Mathew 28:19)
ExOrienteLux
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« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2005, 10:12:18 AM »

Explain.

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The Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Mar Thoma Orthodox church is His Grace Mar Enoch of Fresno, California. MTOC is in dialogue with the Malabar Independent Syrian Church under Metropolitan Mar Joseph Koorilose. The Malabar Independent Syrian Church is an autocephelous jurisdiction under the Syrian Patriarch of Antioch, His Holiness Mar Ignatius Zakka Iwas I.

So you're trying to say that you're Malankar, huh?ÂÂ  I'm not going to accept you as Orthodox until you show that your church is in communion with a Church that mine is in communion with.ÂÂ  Until then, you're schismatic.

-Philip.
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sin_vladimirov
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« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2005, 10:24:43 AM »

Girl, why don't you just leave that suspicious organisation and come to THE ORTHODOX CHURCH?
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OrthodoxRobert
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« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2005, 10:26:08 AM »

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Standard throw away argument used to deflect the question.

Maybe in the circles you run in.

The people I come across think that if a woman has no authority in the Church than she must be a nothing in the eyes of a male dominated Church. But seeing they have never even set foot into an Orthodox Church or heard Orthodox prayers they are quickly taken back by that standard throw away argument which you so lightly dismiss.

Robert
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« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2005, 10:33:32 AM »

The people I come across think that if a woman has no authority in the Church than she must be a nothing in the eyes of a male dominated Church. But seeing they have never even set foot into an Orthodox Church or heard Orthodox prayers they are quickly taken back by that standard throw away argument which you so lightly dismiss.

"..male dominated Church" - those words speak volumes, don't they?

"....or heard Orthodox prayers" - Talk is cheap. Show me some ACTION that places women on the same level as men. After all "there is neither male nor female" -- well, Christ didn't mean that - says the "male dominated Church"

The leaders of the Orthodox Church and The RCC are using religion as a "boys club".

"Tradition" can, and IS used as a club against freedom in the Orthodox and RC Culture.
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